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Joseph Smith Prophet of God

Captain_Moroni
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12/5/2010 3:31:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Joseph Smith Prophet of God:A logical examination of Joseph Smith's position

Joseph Smith Junior was born in Vermont on December 23, 1805. He made many great claims during his life, he claimed to have seen and spoken with God, to be God's chosenprophet, and to have restored God's one true church on this earth. In short he mademany great and high affirmation in his life that continue to effect the world today.Now in order to have made claims as great as these he must have been one of three things
1.A lunatic
2.A liar
3.Possesed of or deluded by the Devil
4.Telling the truth
We will now examine these options in order.
A Lunatic
Now one charge that could be leveled against someone claiming to see God and visions is that of luanancy. There are two reasons that this can be discounted, first any reseraching of the writings of Joseph Smith, and looking at what those around him said of him allindicate that he was not insane, but of sound mind. Secondly charges of lunancy could bemade because of the visions in particular. The problem with this is that many varied and separate people over the space of many years in addition saw many of the same visions that he did. Thus we can see that he was not a lunatic but rather of sound mind. This leads us to the next most probable charge. That of

A Liar
This is the most common accusation leveled now against Joseph Smith that he was a liar a con artist and a scammer. Well if we analyze this claim the next most question would be,why did Joseph lie. The reason for mankind to lie in the manner that Joseph has is always for one reason. That of personal gain. Well so let us evaluate if his declerations did bring him gain. His first claim is that he saw God at the tender age of 14 the following is a direct excerptof his words.
"I soon found . . . that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects--all united to persecute me."[1]
This persecution did follow him throughout his entire life, and only increased. On many multiple occasions Joseph was thrown into prison on false charges and had mockery of public trials. In addition he was, more than once, was dragged out of his house and was tarred and feathered by angry mobs during the middle of the night. Because he would not deny or recant the words which he has spoken, many of Joseph's children perished because of the action of mobs. Finallyon June 27 in the one thousandth eight hundred and forty fourth year of our Lord, Joseph Smithwas murdered by over 200 cowardly mob members because he would not take back that which he hadtestified, thus sealing what he had said with his blood.Therefore we can clearly and plainly see that Joseph Smith Jr. was not a liar and got no gain by continuing his assertion of what he knew. Thus we can see that Joseph Smith Jr. was not a liar. That leads us to one of two final possibilities.
Joseph Smith Junior must have been decieved by the devil or telling the truth.
Now these same assertions were made against Jesus the Christ by pharisees and lawyers. Christ responded with this verse,
"Matthew 7:15-20 (King James Version) 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."[2]
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. The furits of Joseph Smith's labors have beenthe founding and establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. What does this Church do then?
The Church Humainitarian Program.[3]
The LDS Church Humanitarian Program was established in 1991. It sends relief suppliesto areas that have been hurt by disasters in addition to other places and people in need."In a typical year, the Latter-day Saint Humanitarian Center will ship about 12 million pounds of shoes and clothing, 1 million hygiene kits, and 1 million pounds of medical supplies to relieve suffering in more than 100 countries"[3]In addition the Church provides exstensive job training to refugees and immigrants that allows them to acquire skills theyneed to help themselves their families and their communiteis.
The Prepetual Education Fund.[4]
The Prepetual education Fund is a Chruch initative set up in 2001. THe PEF is where individualscontribute money which is then loaned to people, who would not otherwise have the oppurtunity,for education. The beneficiaries of these program, once they have established themselves in a careerdonate to the PEF allowing more and more to gain an education. To date this program has helped many thousands ofpeople rise above poverty and ignorance and continues strongly to help many multiple people.
Fast Offerings.
Once a month members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints refrain from eating for two meals, and then contribute the money they would've spent on food, to their wards fast offering fund.This fund is then used to help those in the area that need help or assitance financially. It helps millions of members annually and does much great good in the world.This is only a small part of what the church does for those around the world and neighborhoods to help people.
If you would like to gain a more full understanding of what the Church does for the world an excellent way to find out, is to go to Temple Square in Salt Lake City and visit the north visotors center in the basement.So it seems that the fruit that Joseph Smith's works have yeilded have been good.
Therefore
Praise to the Man who communed with Jehovah
Jesus anointed that prophet and seer
Blessed to open the last dispensation
Kings Shall extol him and nations revere
Hail to the prophet ascended to heaven
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain
Mingling with gods he can plan for his brethern
Death cannot conquer the hero again.[5][6]
Therefore I make this solemn testimony of Joseph Smith. HE DID commune with God at theage of fourteen. HE WAS called as God's prophet to restore the fullness of the Gospel in the latter days.HE DID restore the true church on this earth. Finally He sealed his testimony with his blood and was a martyr for God. AND I KNOW FOR MYSELF that he will raise up at the ressurection of the just and he willstand forth in glory and power and millions shall know brother Joseph again.

[1]http://lds.org...[2]http://www.biblegateway.com...[3]http://new.lds.org...[4]http://pef.lds.org...[5]http://www.allthelyrics.com...[6]
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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12/5/2010 3:35:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm going to say he was a "liar" but "lunatic" is definitely a close second.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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12/5/2010 4:17:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Moroni, let's talk facts,
Joseph claimed on the "Autumnal equinox" a heavenly creature came to him and told of hidden plates,, Autumnal Equinox ? the Occult ? -

The Church admits he carried a Jupiter stone with him until the day he lost his life in a gun fight, they also admit Joseph began quoting the Freemason distress call before being shot. though witnesses reports tell he quoted it all

I haven't even began to scratch the surface, here, have you anything to reply thus far ?
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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12/5/2010 4:40:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Show me the golden plates.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
JustCallMeTarzan
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12/5/2010 8:27:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB.

There's another option - a liar AND a lunatic.

Honestly - who the hell (no pun intended) gets a book from God and LOSES IT?
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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12/6/2010 12:42:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Joseph Smith was an alien-human hybrid from the future of the world where he was not born and was dismayed with this so we went back before he was not, which means when he was because aliens live backwards in time but since he was half human he was able to go back to when he was before he wasn't and live forward into it so he could be, so he could show unto all the world in his time that his favorite smell is blue.

So how I just made sense there? Just like Mormonism.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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12/7/2010 2:38:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409 -

Lunatic ?
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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12/7/2010 2:54:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 4:33:03 AM, usafkid1121 wrote:
You know, I find the LDS movement to be kind of inspiring to me. Im actually thinking of converting XD

Are you serious?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
ChristianM
Posts: 1,764
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12/7/2010 7:46:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 2:54:12 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 12/7/2010 4:33:03 AM, usafkid1121 wrote:
You know, I find the LDS movement to be kind of inspiring to me. Im actually thinking of converting XD

Are you serious?

As a matter of fact, yes.
Captain_Moroni
Posts: 5
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12/12/2010 10:58:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I love how all of you simply dismiss everything I say as insane and moronic without ever attacking the arguments. It is very similar to most other attacks leveled against the Church, no one ever attacks the doctrine or the beliefs only tries to fudge the truth with lies and slander.

FYI
Everything the Good Teacher knows about Mormonism could fit inside the volume of an electron.
the-good-teacher
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12/13/2010 2:24:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/12/2010 10:58:35 PM, Captain_Moroni wrote:
I love how all of you simply dismiss everything I say as insane and moronic without ever attacking the arguments. It is very similar to most other attacks leveled against the Church, no one ever attacks the doctrine or the beliefs only tries to fudge the truth with lies and slander.

FYI
Everything the Good Teacher knows about Mormonism could fit inside the volume of an electron.

I probably know more than you'll ever know on the subject, tho I hope I'm wrong, but if your Freemason leaders have anything to do with it you'll continue to know very little, -

It's ironic of you to make a post about people dismissing all that you've said without attacking your points, then you go and do the exact same thing when referring to me.

How can you be taken serious ?
I suggest if you continue to believe Joseph Smith was physically baptised into your religion by a non member who conveniently happened to be his cousin, scribe, and fellow Freemason, then you'll continue to be a member of the mushroom squad - kept in the dark and fed a load of excrement.

May the Lord thy God and Shepard find you with his marvelous light and rescue you from the fruits and sewers of Joe and his occult mates.

I'm a friend of Sandra Tanner [Great granddaughter of the late Freemason B Young] @ http://www.utlm.org... you aught to visit her some time, or even better go visit http://hotm.tv... and watch 400 hours of your religion and members getting exposed for exactly what it and they are, and while your there say hello to Shawn for me ;-)
Watch the video for a taste -
Captain_Moroni
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12/13/2010 2:07:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am sorry TGT you are completely right about everything, everything you say is absolutely true. Everything I hear on the news about the LDS church is a lie, and the entire Church is set up and controlled by the free masons who secretly control everything, and it is all a massive conspiracy and the first presidency is in contact with extra terrestrials from planet fa tanng you are right. Also the moon landings were filmed on mars don't let anyone tell you otherwise

Meanwhile back in reality....
the-good-teacher
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12/13/2010 2:10:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/13/2010 2:07:38 PM, Captain_Moroni wrote:
I am sorry TGT you are completely right about everything, everything you say is absolutely true. Everything I hear on the news about the LDS church is a lie, and the entire Church is set up and controlled by the free masons who secretly control everything, and it is all a massive conspiracy and the first presidency is in contact with extra terrestrials from planet fa tanng you are right. Also the moon landings were filmed on mars don't let anyone tell you otherwise


Meanwhile back in reality....

No, back on topic.. What did you think of the video ?
heart_of_the_matter
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1/2/2011 4:47:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/13/2010 2:10:38 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
No, back on topic.. What did you think of the video ?

I watched the video. It isn't overly impressive...The guy simply sets up a strawman then bashes the strawman...

****He seems to be confusing official LDS doctrine with a tract that has been circulated called "The 17 Points of the True Church" (which is not official Church doctrine).

I believe that was just a list of things that 5 people who were going to college researched and found in the Bible and they wrote those points down and went out to try to find the true Church....

But the man in the video treats it like it is official Church doctrine - which is not accurate!...thus the strawman.
He cherry picks one thing out of the 17....and makes a big deal about apostles being paid...well what about examining the basic fact that there IS a living prophet and apostles on the Earth today!!...that is how Jesus Christ set up His Church in earlier times also...

If a person actually wants to know if the prophet and apostles are acting for God...it is really much better to simply inquire of God about it! Once God reveals to you that the Prophet Thomas S. Monson is actually His prophet and that the apostles are God's true servants, then a person doesn't need to be overly concerned about the works God is doing through his prophet and apostles. I certainly don't think it is wise or my place (or anyone's) to say what is proper for God to do through His prophet or apostles...but people are certainly free to pit their wisdom against God if they feel like it...I'm not going to though, because I have received my answer from God as to who these chosen leaders are, and I testify that I know that they are true prophets and apostles of God!
Veridas
Posts: 733
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1/3/2011 2:48:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hello Captain_Moron.

Captain_Moron said:
.Now in order to have made claims as great as these he must have been one of three things
1.A lunatic
2.A liar
3.Possesed of or deluded by the Devil
4.Telling the truth

Well, first, learn to count.

Captain_Moron said:
first any reseraching of the writings of Joseph Smith, and looking at what those around him said of him allindicate that he was not insane

May I see your PhD in psychology, Captain_Moron?

Captain_Moron said:
The problem with this is that many varied and separate people over the space of many years in addition saw many of the same visions that he did.

I...fail to see how that makes him less of a lunatic, or how it makes the other people less like liars, were the people who saw the visions, by any chance, followers of old Joe Smiffy?

Captain_Moron said:
Well if we analyze this claim the next most question would be,why did Joseph lie. The reason for mankind to lie in the manner that Joseph has is always for one reason. That of personal gain. Well so let us evaluate if his declerations did bring him gain. His first claim is that he saw God at the tender age of 14 the following is a direct excerptof his words.
"I soon found . . . that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects--all united to persecute me."[1]
This persecution did follow him throughout his entire life, and only increased. On many multiple occasions Joseph was thrown into prison on false charges and had mockery of public trials. In addition he was, more than once, was dragged out of his house and was tarred and feathered by angry mobs during the middle of the night. Because he would not deny or recant the words which he has spoken, many of Joseph's children perished because of the action of mobs. Finallyon June 27 in the one thousandth eight hundred and forty fourth year of our Lord, Joseph Smithwas murdered by over 200 cowardly mob members because he would not take back that which he hadtestified, thus sealing what he had said with his blood.T

Slight problem there, a couple, actually.

1: Joseph Smith was not murdered by "over two hundred cowardly mobsters" Firstly, the Wikipedia page of the jail itself states that the jail was attacked by "about 150" people. ( http://en.wikipedia.org... ) and that despite the apparantely small size of the jail, Taylor and Willard, two associates and friends of Smith, were not killed. In addition to this, Joseph killed one of the attackers with a pepperpot pistol, and was wounded by another as he tried to jump out of a window, before being shot by a third as he lay on the ground.

Normally I'd agree that the attack was cowardly and nonsensical considering the size of the prison, however what is not explicitly revealed is why Joseph Smith tried to escape, nor how over two hundred attackers only got a 50/50 score when attempting to murder four men. The fact that Joseph Smith was armed inside a Federal Prison raises questions of it's own, but what really caught my eye was the following quote from Smith himself. "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer's morning" A quote he made before being sent to to prison. Then I found this, as the mob attacked, Smith said to one of the jailers "Don't trouble yourself ... they've come to rescue me" (source: http://en.wikipedia.org... )

It should be noted that no claim of Smith's mob-murderers having numbers of over 200 is met with any kind of citation.

Joseph Smith expected to be killed in that prison by the Federal Courts for treason after attempting to silence a Newspaper formulated by former associates that criticised him. (http://en.wikipedia.org... ) and he turns himself in due purely to the expectations of his followers. Then, despite the fact that he sees a mob coming for him, not only does he believe the mob is there to rescue him, but he runs when he finds out that isn't the case.

Why, then, would Joseph Smith, a self-annotated "man of god" run from a quick death by shooting and yet walk calmly to face a slow death by hanging?

Because what better way to end Joseph's controversial life than to make a martyr of him, and use that martyrdom, as you have clearly attempted to do so, to forward the beliefs of the church?

2: This all occurs despite the fact that the mob, despite the fact that the prison still were clearly aiming for the Mormon population, and yet still only managed to kill two of the four people they were targeting. John Taylor, one of the survivors, would go on to be President of the Mormon Church, a fact that normally would give me doubts about my earlier assertions as to the allegiance of the mob. Except, what did John Taylor do BEFORE becoming President of the Church? Let me tell you. John Taylor was Speaker of the House, a very high, very distinguished US political position. The sort of position impossible for a man who had armed, angry and organised people who, you wish us to believe, wanted him dead.

Five times, he was elected Speaker, so it wasn't a fluke. Five. Times.

And what of Willard? Willard was Church Historian and Recorder from 1842, two years before Smith's death, right up until his own death in 1854. For those that do not know, the Church Historian and Recorder is a position of Authority within the church itself

So John Taylor, one of the first members of the church besides Smiffy, and Willard, a man in considerable rank in the church already, conveniently fail to be murdered by at least 150 mobsters storming a prison not much bigger than a modern day suburban home, neither of these men's lives is ever threatened again and one of them manages to hold office in the US Parliament for five terms.

And you don't find that even a little bit suspicious you poisonous little worm?

Detective Veridas is on the case. I thoroughly encourage p!ssing your pants. More in next post.
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
Veridas
Posts: 733
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1/3/2011 2:49:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Captain_Moron said:
Joseph Smith Junior must have been decieved by the devil or telling the truth.
Now these same assertions were made against Jesus the Christ by pharisees and lawyers. Christ responded with this verse,
"Matthew 7:15-20 (King James Version) 15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."[2]

Stirring, really, but besides the fact that using an excerpt from the book of Matthew when you earlier stated that God told Joe Smiffy that "all churches were false" thus falsifying the book of Matthew, the New Testament and the entire Bible altogether (which is in and of itself seperate from the hypocrisy of invoking Jesus motherf*cking Christ in your arguments) there's one underlying point here. Joseph Smith was faced with criminal charges three times in his lifetime if you include the charge of treason laid against him for his attempt to censor a newspaper. The first charge was of pretending to find lost treasure. Then, for being affiliated with, or even perhaps helping to orchestrate, the assassination of the then Governer of Missouri Lilburn Boggs, an allegation he only avoided seeing court for because of the crime's location and juristictural laws at the time.

Joseph's life was ultimately pock-marked by crime and affiliation with criminals, his doctrine preaches hate for homosexuals (proposition 8 and the frankly disgustingly feral Mormon oppositit) and racist doctrine against black people and even people who were from Africa in general ( http://en.wikipedia.org... ) In addition it is a church that follows a book that has seriously flawof accuracy despite apparantely being transcribed in the last two hundred years, during a time when scientific investigation and understanding of the natural world came in leaps and bounds (http://en.wikipedia.org... ) and even manages to completely ignore geographical evidence relative to the movement of tectonic plates that would render contact between the Egyptians and the Native Americans, of all bloody people, totally impossible.

Joseph Smith would be the proverbial man of thorns, Captain_Moron, and pray tell, what is more likely? That a devil approacheth bearing the good news of God, or that a devil approacheth crying "hark, for I am a devil!" And before you answer that question, I urge you to consider strongly the oft-spoken cunning and intellect of the devil and his use of trickery.

Captain_Moron said:
The LDS Church Humanitarian Program was established in 1991

120 years after the church's founding. Took you a fair while, didn't it? However, timing aside, that's a very....WAIT A MINUTE!

http://www.providentliving.org...

LDS relief-effort expendutires published in 2009, making notes about the efforts the church went to to help people. What do you notice about the countries listed?

Samoa-Highly homophibic, read the last paragraph: http://www.samoa.islands-travel.com...
Phillipines-Religiously-mandated homophobic feelings. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Indonesia-LBGT people and couples have, will and do face legal challenges due to their preference. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Ethiopia: Highly homophobic: http://en.wikipedia.org...

All the disasters listed in that report concern countries that homophibic ideals, but what about countries that lack them?
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Countries like the Czech Republic, Austria, Germany, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romania and Croatia. Countries that were smacked about by rampaging floods in 2002, well within the border for the LDS Humanitarian report, an incident that caused tens of thousands to be displaced and that killed dozens, and yet the LDS "humanitarian" effort was strangely absent.

Here's a tip. It's not humanitarian if you only give it to people who agree with you you simpering moron.

Captain_Moron said:
The Prepetual education Fund is a Chruch initative set up in 2001. THe PEF is where individualscontribute money which is then loaned to people, who would not otherwise have the oppurtunity,for education.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

And I quote: "Anyone may donate to the PEF, regardless of affiliation with the LDS church and substantial donations have been made by members and non-members alike"

Dodgy but honourable, but wait..."The Perpetual Education Fund provides loans TO MEMBERS OF THE LDS CHURCH seeking additional education, mainly through vocational school and technical training"

Downright despicable.

Captain_Moron said:
Fast Offerings.

Now there's no possible way this could in any way be bad, right, I mean it'd take some serious doing to make thi-
http://en.wikipedia.org...
and I quote:Specifically, fast offerings are used to provide food, shelter, clothing, and other things for those who are in need, fulfilling the meaning conveyed in Isaiah 58:6-11"

Isiah. From the Bible. The Bible that Joseph Smith was told was wrong.

F*ck. You.

Also:http://en.wikipedia.org...

In short: The church gives you money, and then "suggests" that you give the church money. Sneaky.

Captain_Moron said:
Therefore
Praise to the Man who communed with Jehovah
Jesus anointed that prophet and seer
Blessed to open the last dispensation
Kings Shall extol him and nations revere
Hail to the prophet ascended to heaven
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain
Mingling with gods he can plan for his brethern
Death cannot conquer the hero again.[5][6]

The 5 and 6 tell me you're reading someone else's work, that's called Plaigarism, I believe your church has some history with the notion. Regardles, you are not equipped intellectually or spiritually to convey the image of your church that you are so desperately trying to. You lack both the understanding of history and the understanding of people to judge someone whom you have already been told is great and good, and since you will automatically decry me as a bigot or agent of the devil for speaking out against you, it will no doubt become clear in time, should you choose to continue frequenting this place of discussion, that your doctrine is absolute, that your bigotry is tangible, and that you do not belong here.

Go now out into the world and spread thy ideas of filth and flaggelation to the nearest wall, it will accomplish much more than trying to do so here. F*cker.
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
the-good-teacher
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1/4/2011 2:56:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/2/2011 4:47:43 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
At 12/13/2010 2:10:38 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
No, back on topic.. What did you think of the video ?

I watched the video. It isn't overly impressive...The guy simply sets up a strawman then bashes the strawman...

****He seems to be confusing official LDS doctrine with a tract that has been circulated called "The 17 Points of the True Church" (which is not official Church doctrine).

I believe that was just a list of things that 5 people who were going to college researched and found in the Bible and they wrote those points down and went out to try to find the true Church....

But the man in the video treats it like it is official Church doctrine - which is not accurate!...thus the strawman.
He cherry picks one thing out of the 17....and makes a big deal about apostles being paid...well what about examining the basic fact that there IS a living prophet and apostles on the Earth today!!...that is how Jesus Christ set up His Church in earlier times also...

If a person actually wants to know if the prophet and apostles are acting for God...it is really much better to simply inquire of God about it! Once God reveals to you that the Prophet Thomas S. Monson is actually His prophet and that the apostles are God's true servants, then a person doesn't need to be overly concerned about the works God is doing through his prophet and apostles. I certainly don't think it is wise or my place (or anyone's) to say what is proper for God to do through His prophet or apostles...but people are certainly free to pit their wisdom against God if they feel like it...I'm not going to though, because I have received my answer from God as to who these chosen leaders are, and I testify that I know that they are true prophets and apostles of God!

At what point did he confuse church doctrine ?

We know the 12 Apostles of Christ did not know where their next bed was, we know they were boiled in oil crucified upside down, beheaded, tortured and imprisoned, because of their testimony, and you come out with some utter rubbish about how you were suckered into praying about these freemasons in designer suits, fancy houses, money, best seats at church cars etc, being true ?, get yourself on your knees and ask for forgiveness lady. God has really got your brain twisted !

2 Thess 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie":
heart_of_the_matter
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1/5/2011 3:10:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/4/2011 2:56:40 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:

At what point did he confuse church doctrine ?

At the point he assumes that the tract "17 Points of the True Church" is accurate and proves anything at all is where he initially seems confused.
He seems to assume it is Church Doctrine from our Church...but not only is it not official Church doctrine from our Church, but it wasn't even printed from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

We know the 12 Apostles of Christ did not know where their next bed was, we know they were boiled in oil crucified upside down, beheaded, tortured and imprisoned, because of their testimony, and you come out with some utter rubbish about how you were suckered into praying about these freemasons in designer suits, fancy houses, money, best seats at church cars etc, being true ?, get yourself on your knees and ask for forgiveness lady. God has really got your brain twisted !

2 Thess 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie":

So are you trying to say that God never has rich leaders? Perhaps you have heard of King David or King Solomon?

1Kings10
¶Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,

15Beside that he had of the merchantmen, and of the traffick of the spice merchants, and of all the kings of Arabia, and of the governors of the country.

16¶And king Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of gold went to one target.

17And he made three hundred shields of beaten gold; three pound of gold went to one shield: and the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon.

18¶Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold.

19The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays.

20And twelve lions stood there on the one side and on the other upon the six steps: there was not the like made in any kingdom.

21¶And all king Solomon's drinking vessels were of gold, and all the vessels of the house of the forest of Lebanon were of pure gold; none were of silver: it was nothing accounted of in the days of Solomon.

22For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.

23So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.

...It is not about the money...God is ok if His followers are rich IF they are obedient to Him.
You are right that I do have things to pray and repent of...and I do....but it isn't about those things. I testify again that I know that the Prophet Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet and the apostles now in the Church are true apostles!

Also by the way, I am a guy. It is at the top of my profile if you click on it. Hopefully your other research is better than that!
thisoneguy
Posts: 30
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1/5/2011 4:17:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/5/2011 3:10:00 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
At 1/4/2011 2:56:40 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:

At what point did he confuse church doctrine ?

At the point he assumes that the tract "17 Points of the True Church" is accurate and proves anything at all is where he initially seems confused.
He seems to assume it is Church Doctrine from our Church...but not only is it not official Church doctrine from our Church, but it wasn't even printed from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

We know the 12 Apostles of Christ did not know where their next bed was, we know they were boiled in oil crucified upside down, beheaded, tortured and imprisoned, because of their testimony, and you come out with some utter rubbish about how you were suckered into praying about these freemasons in designer suits, fancy houses, money, best seats at church cars etc, being true ?, get yourself on your knees and ask for forgiveness lady. God has really got your brain twisted !

2 Thess 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie":

So are you trying to say that God never has rich leaders? Perhaps you have heard of King David or King Solomon?

1Kings10
¶Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,

15Beside that he had of the merchantmen, and of the traffick of the spice merchants, and of all the kings of Arabia, and of the governors of the country.

16¶And king Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of gold went to one target.

17And he made three hundred shields of beaten gold; three pound of gold went to one shield: and the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon.

18¶Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold.

19The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays.

20And twelve lions stood there on the one side and on the other upon the six steps: there was not the like made in any kingdom.

21¶And all king Solomon's drinking vessels were of gold, and all the vessels of the house of the forest of Lebanon were of pure gold; none were of silver: it was nothing accounted of in the days of Solomon.

22For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.

23So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.

...It is not about the money...God is ok if His followers are rich IF they are obedient to Him.
You are right that I do have things to pray and repent of...and I do....but it isn't about those things. I testify again that I know that the Prophet Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet and the apostles now in the Church are true apostles!

Also by the way, I am a guy. It is at the top of my profile if you click on it. Hopefully your other research is better than that!

Calling you "Lady" was not a result of research, nor was it right for you to allude to it as such.

I compared your Apostles to the apostles of the NT, no-one else, and you know they are not one and the same, it makes my sick to the stomach to think that you're so deluded you dare to address them as one and the same, look at this scripture and bend your knees in sorrowful prayer.

1 Cor 4:
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

Christ fulfilled around 300 OT Prophesies during his time with us, and fulfilled none whatsoever by going to America as claimed, What a liar Joseph Smith was !

I testify before God and the world that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints is being governed by high ranking closet Freemasons who have made God forbidden oaths with Satan.
twsurber
Posts: 505
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1/6/2011 11:27:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Wasn't Joseph Smith the dude that fell asleep under an apple tree while listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir perform the halftime show at a football game with Fresno State at BYU? And then, like someone threw a beer can and hit him in the head right? and he had some kind of vision or something? Then he started wearing black and white clothes and rode a bicycle around?
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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1/6/2011 12:26:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 11:27:07 AM, twsurber wrote:
Wasn't Joseph Smith the dude that fell asleep under an apple tree while listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir perform the halftime show at a football game with Fresno State at BYU? And then, like someone threw a beer can and hit him in the head right? and he had some kind of vision or something? Then he started wearing black and white clothes and rode a bicycle around?

(laughing uncontrollably)
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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1/6/2011 12:39:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/6/2011 11:27:07 AM, twsurber wrote:
Wasn't Joseph Smith the dude that fell asleep under an apple tree while listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir perform the halftime show at a football game with Fresno State at BYU? And then, like someone threw a beer can and hit him in the head right? and he had some kind of vision or something? Then he started wearing black and white clothes and rode a bicycle around?

I've not read that about him, but he was the guy who took children as his wife and also married their mother, women who were already married, this guy was a crack pot ! - with a massive sex drive and a god who cared not about sexually transmitted diseases.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
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1/22/2011 11:34:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Video:
Let's start with the good teacher. You know the guy in that video is an excommunicated Latter-day Saint. He was kicked out for a sin he committed and is now disgruntled. In short he was a believer until it didn't go his way. Also you're only hearing one side (him). That isn't how you come to a correct conclusion. The few times Latter-day Saints are on his show he doesn't let them get their point in edge wise.

Oliver Cowdrey Cousin:
Oliver Cowdrey may have been a distant cousin, but to me that is more of a miracle then if he were not. God leading Oliver Cowdrey to a cousin he hasn't seen in years. God knowing he will trust his cousin and scribe for him. Although most of what you read is propaganda.

Contradicting arguments:
Now I will rebut Veridas argument. Your arguments contradict each other. First you talk about how Mormon leaders are devil worshippers. Then you say were a horrible church because were not for gay marriage. Almost all religions aren't for gay marriage, so pick one side.

Jospeh Smith Death:
Now let's talk only Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith dyeing in the jail. The mob was targeting the two main leaders which were Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith; the mob seen everybody else as followers. The mob was made up of people from other religions, so to make their killings moral they only killed the leaders.

Leadership being wealthy:
Another issue you raise up is about our leadership having money. They didn't get that money from the church. They had successful careers also. Leadership in our church is examples to us what we can do if we live the gospel. I also must say that no other religion has leadership as you speak. The only exception is Catholic; which their leadership is trained. It doesn't teach that in the bible.

Stuff not in the Bible:
The point is every religion does things that are not in the Bible. Where are other religions claiming the authority to do that? If no authority then they are making it up. That is not Gods way. God created everything including the commandments and the law. LDS claim divine revelation. That makes more sense than just making it up.

Prophets Apostles:
Since were going off the Bible so much where are Prophets and Apostles in other churches? Is that another thing that was just decided by humans? Apostles were in place and are in place to guide us through life; to reach our ultimate goal to reside with God. Without them the righteous are misguided.

This is what the church said verbatim about homosexuals. Does it sound like hate?

My name is Michael Otterson. I am here representing the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to address the matter of the petition presented today by the Human Rights Campaign.
While we disagree with the Human Rights Campaign on many fundamentals, we also share some common ground. This past week we have all witnessed tragic deaths across the country as a result of bullying or intimidation of gay young men. We join our voice with others in unreserved condemnation of acts of cruelty or attempts to belittle or mock any group or individual that is different – whether those differences arise from race, religion, mental challenges, social status, sexual orientation or for any other reason. Such actions simply have no place in our society.
This Church has felt the bitter sting of persecution and marginalization early in our history, when we were too few in numbers to adequately protect ourselves and when society's leaders often seemed disinclined to help. Our parents, young adults, teens and children should therefore, of all people, be especially sensitive to the vulnerable in society and be willing to speak out against bullying or intimidation whenever it occurs, including unkindness toward those who are attracted to others of the same sex.
This is particularly so in our own Latter-day Saint congregations. Each Latter-day Saint family and individual should carefully consider whether their attitudes and actions toward others properly reflect Jesus Christ's second great commandment - to love one another.
As a church, our doctrinal position is clear: any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, and we define marriage as between a man and a woman. However, that should never, ever be used as justification for unkindness. Jesus Christ, whom we follow, was clear in His condemnation of sexual immorality, but never cruel. His interest was always to lift the individual, never to tear down.
Further, while the Church is strongly on the record as opposing same-sex marriage, it has openly supported other rights for gays and lesbians such as protections in housing or employment.
The Church's doctrine is based on love. We believe that our purpose in life is to learn, grow and develop, and that God's unreserved love enables each of us to reach our potential. None of us is limited by our feelings or inclinations. Ultimately, we are free to act for ourselves.
The Church recognizes that those of its members who are attracted to others of the same sex experience deep emotional, social and physical feelings. The Church distinguishes between feelings or
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/22/2011 12:29:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have course point to TRUE Islam.

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Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp