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Existence

Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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5/11/2016 6:18:24 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
I think , the reality is subjective and so is the existence. But to you,

What qualifies something to exist?
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/11/2016 7:03:48 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 6:18:24 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
I think , the reality is subjective and so is the existence. But to you,
What qualifies something to exist?

For practical purposes, Riwaaz, we can agree that an idea exists if its signature behaviours can be independently and reliably corroborated by best-practice observation so that:

1) those behaviours predicted by an idea are accurately observed;
2) those behaviours occur together (so it's one phenomenon and not several.)

By signature behaviours we mean behaviours that are specific, significant and observable.

By accuracy, we mean correlated, predictive precision.

By best-practice observation, we mean observational methods that have been systematically and independently tested for accuracy, and where all inaccuracy which can be removed, has been removed.

By independence we mean the use of as many disparate but accurate methods, by as many independent observers, as we have available, and our confidence requires.

By existence, we do not mean that an idea exists absolutely, only objectively, so that if we act on belief in its existence, we routinely observe the outcomes we expect; however we are still free to alter our beliefs if they are better understood through new or more accurate information.

This objective, emergent but not absolute notion of existence is practical, useful and sharable to the extent that our tools and methods for observation are.

It is not subjective, except to the extent that our methods may contain residual inaccuracy.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/11/2016 2:00:18 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 6:18:24 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
I think , the reality is subjective and so is the existence. But to you,

What qualifies something to exist?

No, it is only people perception of reality that is subjective.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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5/11/2016 3:36:38 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 2:00:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:18:24 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
I think , the reality is subjective and so is the existence. But to you,

What qualifies something to exist?

No, it is only people perception of reality that is subjective.

Can YOU observe something without your perception?
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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5/11/2016 3:39:38 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 7:03:48 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:18:24 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
I think , the reality is subjective and so is the existence. But to you,
What qualifies something to exist?

For practical purposes, Riwaaz, we can agree that an idea exists if its signature behaviours can be independently and reliably corroborated by best-practice observation so that:

1) those behaviours predicted by an idea are accurately observed;
2) those behaviours occur together (so it's one phenomenon and not several.)

By signature behaviours we mean behaviours that are specific, significant and observable.

By accuracy, we mean correlated, predictive precision.

By best-practice observation, we mean observational methods that have been systematically and independently tested for accuracy, and where all inaccuracy which can be removed, has been removed.

By independence we mean the use of as many disparate but accurate methods, by as many independent observers, as we have available, and our confidence requires.

By existence, we do not mean that an idea exists absolutely, only objectively, so that if we act on belief in its existence, we routinely observe the outcomes we expect; however we are still free to alter our beliefs if they are better understood through new or more accurate information.

This objective, emergent but not absolute notion of existence is practical, useful and sharable to the extent that our tools and methods for observation are.

It is not subjective, except to the extent that our methods may contain residual inaccuracy.

Now that I 've read your detailed response, can you please tell me if the morality exists?
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/11/2016 5:39:03 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 3:39:38 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 5/11/2016 7:03:48 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:18:24 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
I think , the reality is subjective and so is the existence. But to you,
What qualifies something to exist?
For practical purposes, Riwaaz, we can agree that an idea exists if its signature behaviours can be independently and reliably corroborated by best-practice observation so that they're accurate observed, and occur together.

Now that I've read your detailed response, can you please tell me if the morality exists?

Okay. But firstly, since you haven't asked a question about my definition of existence, I assume you believe you understand it. Since you haven't objected, or declared intent to contest it, I understand that for the purpose of this conversation, you accept it. Therefore I shall not accept variation to that meaning or objection to its premises in his conversation hereafter.

So let's talk about morality.

Morality comes from Latin moralitas meaning "manner" or "character." In philosophy, morality can be used either:
1. descriptively to refer to certain codes of conduct put forward by a society or a group (such as a religion), or accepted by an individual for her own behavior, or
2. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons [http://plato.stanford.edu...]

The first meaning is essentially sociological, and in that sense there's no question that morality exists as an subject of sociological study. We can independently and objectively confirm that human societies are concerned with how people ought to behave, codify their thoughts on this, and teach future generations. So as a sociological subject, morality exists under my definition of existence, because it's an observable facet of human behaviour.

But I understand the second meaning to be the one you asked about: does a normative morality exist such that under reasonable conditions (to be elaborated), it'd be embraced by rational people?

I think we have evidence that it does -- in the same emergent, objective but not absolute fashion under which I previously described existence. In particular, I think a core of common species cause can be identified, and a practical set of ethics negotiated such that under reasonable conditions (which I can set out later), rational people will adopt it.

In fact, I think that's already happening.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/11/2016 6:22:44 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 3:36:38 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:00:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:18:24 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
I think , the reality is subjective and so is the existence. But to you,

What qualifies something to exist?

No, it is only people perception of reality that is subjective.

Can YOU observe something without your perception?

We all tend to take our perception of things from those around us, though sometimes events force us to change that perception.

How it turns out depends on what our priorities are as much as anything.

That is why my perception of reality has changed as I have learned more and more. I prefer not to form it around imagination, as many do even when they don;t realise they are..