Total Posts:35|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Women's Rights in the Bible

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted. Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value. But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss. And check out this debate between myself and harrytruman on the subject...

http://www.debate.org...
President of DDO
Geogeer
Posts: 4,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/11/2016 8:51:14 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted. Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value. But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss. And check out this debate between myself and harrytruman on the subject...

http://www.debate.org...

There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

That is about as equal as one can be.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/11/2016 9:38:12 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted.

I don't think it's a matter of egregious misinterpretation or mistranslation, but rather the extremity to which people exaggerate the text. The Bible explicitly teaches women should be subservient to men in a loving relationship (even in the NT). The largest issue is the denial of Biblical teachings and biological science that men and women are in fact different.

Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value.

The Bible is certainly applicable to any age or time. It's viewed as sexist because many people hold that sexism is anything short of total egalitarianism in relation to men and women. I personally don't believe that is sexism. Sexism is rather the blatant abuse of Biblical principles of disparity between male and female.

But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss.

You're correct, many Christians believe the Bible is speaking literally about gender roles. I believe a society functions best when men and women act in their respective roles as outlined in the Bible. I think it matters quite a bit; it's a Biblical teaching, and those who subscribe to the Christian religion should think it matters, too. It's probably true that it turns some away, which is sad. However, it's not necessarily the fault of either party; those millennials have grown up in a society which has a very progressive view of what sexism is and often exaggerate Biblical text out of context.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/11/2016 10:13:32 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted. Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value. But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss. And check out this debate between myself and harrytruman on the subject...

http://www.debate.org...

Without Christianity you'd still be searching for rights. The world would have been owned andset by nonchristian religions. Freedom as we know it would be in the dark age. So would feminism.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/11/2016 10:13:58 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."
(Ephesians 5:25)

(Ephesians 5:28)
"In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."

(Colossians 3:19)
"Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them."

(1 Peter 3:7)
"Husbands, in the same way, treat your wives with consideration as a delicate vessel, and with honor as fellow heirs of the gracious gift of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered."

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
(Matthew 19:9)

"When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."
(John 8:7)

-And that was written in a time when women had no sense of individuality or rights. Christianity was what gave foundation to women having "God given rights" and worth.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/11/2016 10:24:47 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:

The verses brontoraptor noted are important, as well. I was considering adding something about that, but had decided against it. Now that he has, I'll expound on what he mentioned.

A lot of the confusion about what the Bible really teaches about women (and a host of other issues, for that matter) comes from the OT. A lot of its teachings are archaic and symbolic relative to the NT. It relays a message of the wonderful transition from a jealous, wrathful God on those who don't believe and trust Him to the extension of grace. That's important to consider (insofar as Christian teachings are concerned) when using OT verses to manifest the Biblical portrayal of women's rights.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/11/2016 11:56:21 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 9:38:12 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted.

I don't think it's a matter of egregious misinterpretation or mistranslation, but rather the extremity to which people exaggerate the text. The Bible explicitly teaches women should be subservient to men in a loving relationship (even in the NT). The largest issue is the denial of Biblical teachings and biological science that men and women are in fact different.

Other than a penis and vagina, what are these differences you speak of and should they have anything to do with men dominating over women?

Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value.

The Bible is certainly applicable to any age or time. It's viewed as sexist because many people hold that sexism is anything short of total egalitarianism in relation to men and women. I personally don't believe that is sexism. Sexism is rather the blatant abuse of Biblical principles of disparity between male and female.

But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss.

You're correct, many Christians believe the Bible is speaking literally about gender roles. I believe a society functions best when men and women act in their respective roles as outlined in the Bible

LOL. Unless you're the woman, of course.

I think it matters quite a bit; it's a Biblical teaching, and those who subscribe to the Christian religion should think it matters, too. It's probably true that it turns some away, which is sad.

It's sad that women should not be treated equal? It's sad that you can't dominate them?

However, it's not necessarily the fault of either party; those millennials have grown up in a society which has a very progressive view of what sexism is and often exaggerate Biblical text out of context.

There's no exaggeration, the words are there for everyone to read.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 1:11:50 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 8:51:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted. Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value. But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss. And check out this debate between myself and harrytruman on the subject...

http://www.debate.org...

There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

That is about as equal as one can be.

Yes, everyone has the same opportunity for salvation.
Just because you are owned by your master, and can be sold at any time, does not mean you are unequal in salvation.
Just because you are chattel, owned by your husband, barely above the slaves, does not mean you do not have equal access to salvation.
Just because all of society, by law, can treat you like scum, does not mean Jesus will love you any less, in heaven above, after you have departed this earth.
Just do not think you are equal in the material world, that is a different story.

And now you know, the rest of the story.

Jesus says all are equal, but Paul and some others did not get the memo.
One step away from the words of Jesus, offers no support for earthly equality.

Our Jewish friends do not need Jesus to see the cultural bigotry of biblical (Torah) teachings.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 2:55:43 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 11:56:21 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/11/2016 9:38:12 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted.

I don't think it's a matter of egregious misinterpretation or mistranslation, but rather the extremity to which people exaggerate the text. The Bible explicitly teaches women should be subservient to men in a loving relationship (even in the NT). The largest issue is the denial of Biblical teachings and biological science that men and women are in fact different.

What are these differences you speak of and should they have anything to do with men dominating over women?

Women are generally more gentle and caring than men, and able to care for children in a manner much different, and usually more effective, than men. Men are generally more physically strong and have a more stern outlook on life. These are differences we can't look past.

Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value.

The Bible is certainly applicable to any age or time. It's viewed as sexist because many people hold that sexism is anything short of total egalitarianism in relation to men and women. I personally don't believe that is sexism. Sexism is rather the blatant abuse of Biblical principles of disparity between male and female.

But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss.

You're correct, many Christians believe the Bible is speaking literally about gender roles. I believe a society functions best when men and women act in their respective roles as outlined in the Bible

LOL. Unless you're the woman, of course.

That's not true. Just because men are the head of the household does not mean women have no say in what goes on or how matters are handled. Read the verse brontoraptor posted.

I think it matters quite a bit; it's a Biblical teaching, and those who subscribe to the Christian religion should think it matters, too. It's probably true that it turns some away, which is sad.

It's sad that women should not be treated equal? It's sad that you can't dominate them?

No, it's sad that people reject God's plan as a whole. I'd be willing to continue discussing this issue with you, but if you strawman everything I say, there is no point for me to do so.

However, it's not necessarily the fault of either party; those millennials have grown up in a society which has a very progressive view of what sexism is and often exaggerate Biblical text out of context.

There's no exaggeration, the words are there for everyone to read.

There is hefty exaggeration of what the OT means, as well as its correlation to the NT. Those verses are also there for everyone to read. I'll allow the Jewish to defend themselves with strictly OT Scriptures, but we, as Christians, also believe the NT.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
bulproof
Posts: 25,273
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:08:20 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 2:55:43 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/11/2016 11:56:21 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/11/2016 9:38:12 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted.

I don't think it's a matter of egregious misinterpretation or mistranslation, but rather the extremity to which people exaggerate the text. The Bible explicitly teaches women should be subservient to men in a loving relationship (even in the NT). The largest issue is the denial of Biblical teachings and biological science that men and women are in fact different.

What are these differences you speak of and should they have anything to do with men dominating over women?

Women are generally more gentle and caring than men, and able to care for children in a manner much different, and usually more effective, than men. Men are generally more physically strong and have a more stern outlook on life. These are differences we can't look past.

Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value.

The Bible is certainly applicable to any age or time. It's viewed as sexist because many people hold that sexism is anything short of total egalitarianism in relation to men and women. I personally don't believe that is sexism. Sexism is rather the blatant abuse of Biblical principles of disparity between male and female.

But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss.

You're correct, many Christians believe the Bible is speaking literally about gender roles. I believe a society functions best when men and women act in their respective roles as outlined in the Bible

LOL. Unless you're the woman, of course.

That's not true. Just because men are the head of the household does not mean women have no say in what goes on or how matters are handled. Read the verse brontoraptor posted.

I think it matters quite a bit; it's a Biblical teaching, and those who subscribe to the Christian religion should think it matters, too. It's probably true that it turns some away, which is sad.

It's sad that women should not be treated equal? It's sad that you can't dominate them?

No, it's sad that people reject God's plan as a whole. I'd be willing to continue discussing this issue with you, but if you strawman everything I say, there is no point for me to do so.

However, it's not necessarily the fault of either party; those millennials have grown up in a society which has a very progressive view of what sexism is and often exaggerate Biblical text out of context.

There's no exaggeration, the words are there for everyone to read.

There is hefty exaggeration of what the OT means, as well as its correlation to the NT. Those verses are also there for everyone to read. I'll allow the Jewish to defend themselves with strictly OT Scriptures, but we, as Christians, also believe the NT.

Squirm and wriggle, dodge and evade, equivocate and lie, the bible teaches to treat women as slaves, albeit well treated slaves but slaves nonetheless.
Just BTW, why do YOU need a head of the household?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 5:15:01 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted.

Of course they would be. How convenient. Also, that's just admitting that the bible is flawed. Gotcha.

Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value.

So scripture has a use-by-date?

But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society.

They are comparable to flat earthers. Ignore them.

What do you believe?

I believe that the bible should only be used as a tinder nest. Anything beyond that is idiotic.

And does any of this matter?

Not really.

Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today?

Yes.

Discuss. And check out this debate between myself and harrytruman on the subject...

http://www.debate.org...
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 5:20:06 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 10:13:32 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted. Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value. But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss. And check out this debate between myself and harrytruman on the subject...

http://www.debate.org...

Without Christianity you'd still be searching for rights. The world would have been owned andset by nonchristian religions. Freedom as we know it would be in the dark age. So would feminism.

Such as, freedom of religion, freedom to own firearms, freedom from slavery, freedom of a jury, freedom from cruel or unusual punishment and freedom of speech. These are all great examples of rights abstained by Christianity.*

*this is sarcasm, in case a mentally disabled person didn't get it.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
Rukado
Posts: 527
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 8:31:34 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 9:38:12 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
The Bible explicitly teaches women should be subservient to men in a loving relationship (even in the NT). The largest issue is the denial of Biblical teachings and biological science that men and women are in fact different.

Phony Christians argue the Bible teaches that equality (defined by feminist rhetoric) between the sexes. They don't accept biblical teaching that the man is to be the head of the woman. Like Liberals, they also don't believe biological science that men and women are in fact different.

The Bible is certainly applicable to any age or time. It's viewed as sexist because many people hold that sexism is anything short of total egalitarianism in relation to men and women.

Actually, Liberals consider equal treatment of men and women to be sexist. They demand special protection and treatment of women -- and anything less than that they consider sexist. Western society is engaged in a Herculean effort to favor women in an attempt to create equal outcomes.

We should repeal all anti-consent laws (so-called anti-discrimination laws) which are used to coerce businesses to practice sexual and racial favoritism and let the chips fall where they would naturally fall. But, only people who believe in Freedom agree.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 1:11:20 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 3:08:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/12/2016 2:55:43 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/11/2016 11:56:21 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 5/11/2016 9:38:12 PM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted.

I don't think it's a matter of egregious misinterpretation or mistranslation, but rather the extremity to which people exaggerate the text. The Bible explicitly teaches women should be subservient to men in a loving relationship (even in the NT). The largest issue is the denial of Biblical teachings and biological science that men and women are in fact different.

What are these differences you speak of and should they have anything to do with men dominating over women?

Women are generally more gentle and caring than men, and able to care for children in a manner much different, and usually more effective, than men. Men are generally more physically strong and have a more stern outlook on life. These are differences we can't look past.

Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value.

The Bible is certainly applicable to any age or time. It's viewed as sexist because many people hold that sexism is anything short of total egalitarianism in relation to men and women. I personally don't believe that is sexism. Sexism is rather the blatant abuse of Biblical principles of disparity between male and female.

But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss.

You're correct, many Christians believe the Bible is speaking literally about gender roles. I believe a society functions best when men and women act in their respective roles as outlined in the Bible

LOL. Unless you're the woman, of course.

That's not true. Just because men are the head of the household does not mean women have no say in what goes on or how matters are handled. Read the verse brontoraptor posted.

I think it matters quite a bit; it's a Biblical teaching, and those who subscribe to the Christian religion should think it matters, too. It's probably true that it turns some away, which is sad.

It's sad that women should not be treated equal? It's sad that you can't dominate them?

No, it's sad that people reject God's plan as a whole. I'd be willing to continue discussing this issue with you, but if you strawman everything I say, there is no point for me to do so.

However, it's not necessarily the fault of either party; those millennials have grown up in a society which has a very progressive view of what sexism is and often exaggerate Biblical text out of context.

There's no exaggeration, the words are there for everyone to read.

There is hefty exaggeration of what the OT means, as well as its correlation to the NT. Those verses are also there for everyone to read. I'll allow the Jewish to defend themselves with strictly OT Scriptures, but we, as Christians, also believe the NT.

Squirm and wriggle, dodge and evade, equivocate and lie, the bible teaches to treat women as slaves, albeit well treated slaves but slaves nonetheless.

You accusations are dismissive of what I just said. Nonetheless, it doesn't matter. You seem to be close-minded about what the Bible, as a whole and in context, teaches.

Just BTW, why do YOU need a head of the household?

Why do I need a head of the household? Idk what you mean.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 2:30:53 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 10:13:32 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Without Christianity you'd still be searching for rights. The world would have been owned andset by nonchristian religions. Freedom as we know it would be in the dark age. So would feminism.

Lol I really hope you're kidding and not just trolling for funsies...
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 2:33:39 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 8:31:34 AM, Rukado wrote:
Phony Christians argue the Bible teaches that equality (defined by feminist rhetoric) between the sexes. They don't accept biblical teaching that the man is to be the head of the woman. Like Liberals, they also don't believe biological science that men and women are in fact different.

Haha, now we're getting somewhere. I think this is an interesting inter-Christian debate.

Actually, Liberals consider equal treatment of men and women to be sexist. They demand special protection and treatment of women -- and anything less than that they consider sexist. Western society is engaged in a Herculean effort to favor women in an attempt to create equal outcomes.

Somewhat agree.

We should repeal all anti-consent laws (so-called anti-discrimination laws) which are used to coerce businesses to practice sexual and racial favoritism and let the chips fall where they would naturally fall. But, only people who believe in Freedom agree.

Anti-consent laws insofar as it pertains to rape is a really difficult legal (and moral) question, but I don't think it has to do with feminism or liberalism specifically.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 2:34:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 8:51:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

A lot of people I know use this quote to suggest Jesus is okay with gay and transgender rights. It's a great quote, but surely conflicts with some other passages in the Bible.
President of DDO
Geogeer
Posts: 4,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:07:09 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 2:34:27 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/11/2016 8:51:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

A lot of people I know use this quote to suggest Jesus is okay with gay and transgender rights. It's a great quote, but surely conflicts with some other passages in the Bible.

Every single person can become a member of the body of Christ. That does not mean that all of their actions and desires are coherent with Christianity. The whole Bible fits together.
Rukado
Posts: 527
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:10:32 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 2:33:39 PM, Danielle wrote:
Anti-consent laws insofar as it pertains to rape is a really difficult legal (and moral) question, but I don't think it has to do with feminism or liberalism specifically.

Anti-discrimination laws are anti-consent laws. While the place of application is different, a man, using a gun, and raping a woman in a park is the same thing as a man forcing a woman to hire her (using the government as the weapon of coercion). (And, actually, anti-consent laws are almost never applied when the man is predator.)

The government bends the employment market, forcing the whole market to practice discrimination. The government pretends that it's addressing a problem of a free people universally discriminating against women. But, in reality, it's primarily non-discrimination that accounts for pre-antidiscrimination employment statistics.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:17:00 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 3:07:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Every single person can become a member of the body of Christ. That does not mean that all of their actions and desires are coherent with Christianity. The whole Bible fits together.

So how are you using the quote to answer the OP?
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:21:02 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 3:10:32 PM, Rukado wrote:
Anti-discrimination laws are anti-consent laws. While the place of application is different, a man, using a gun, and raping a woman in a park is the same thing as a man forcing a woman to hire her (using the government as the weapon of coercion). (And, actually, anti-consent laws are almost never applied when the man is predator.)

Anti-discrimination laws are anti-choice laws and anti-freedom laws, not anti-consent laws.

You're misrepresenting the way anti-discrimination laws work. They don't say you have to hire someone because they are XYZ; they say you can't not hire someone because they are XYZ.

The government bends the employment market, forcing the whole market to practice discrimination. The government pretends that it's addressing a problem of a free people universally discriminating against women. But, in reality, it's primarily non-discrimination that accounts for pre-antidiscrimination employment statistics.

I don't agree with government regulating the market and I recognize employment statistics as flawed (especially as it pertains to the wage and gender gap), but it would be naive and outright disingenuous for me to pretend discrimination did not permeate the market pretty strongly up until around the 90s.
President of DDO
Rukado
Posts: 527
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:21:11 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 8:51:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

Anyone who quotes that verse to defend "equality" (in a feminist sense) of women is not a Christian. If you don't recognize yourself to be a liar, it only shows that lying is so natural to you that it's completely comfortable.

That verse just means all real Christians are Abraham's children, regardless of whether we are slave or free, male or female. It has nothing to do with declaring there aren't differences between slave and free, male and female - f@ggot, try to get pregnant without a male and female, see female and male still exists.

Why would a man who says he doesn't allow a woman to have authority over a man declare that there are no male and female roles? Are you really so stupid?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:23:46 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 3:17:00 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/12/2016 3:07:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Every single person can become a member of the body of Christ. That does not mean that all of their actions and desires are coherent with Christianity. The whole Bible fits together.

So how are you using the quote to answer the OP?

Fundamentally Christianity (and hence the bible) believes in the equality of every person. Once you believe that every person is made in the image and likeness of God, loved by Him and imbued with dignity as a result, one can only have one opinion.

Now one also acknowledges that men and women are different and serve complementary roles. Equal does not mean interchangeable. Every society builds according to their time and place - as such they place different emphasis on the roles of men and women within the society. None of which has to do with the inherent value of either.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:26:45 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 2:30:53 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/11/2016 10:13:32 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Without Christianity you'd still be searching for rights. The world would have been owned andset by nonchristian religions. Freedom as we know it would be in the dark age. So would feminism.

Lol I really hope you're kidding and not just trolling for funsies...

Not really. Every appeal in the West has been made to the words of Christ. MLK appealed to Christ on racism. "Somewhere I heard...Somewhere I heard..." The same for women's sufferage, etc. God said we were all fre...Christ said...God said...etc etc.

These things got accomplished during periods when there was religion ruling the world in the West, which has been its entire history until late. They weren't appealing to atheists. There hardly were any to appeal to. They appealed to the believers in Christ which was essentially the entire West. Notice that the Christianized world got it done. Also notice, the nonchristianizrd world still considers women inferior. 2 billion Muslims have no sense of women as equal. That's bearly a third of the world. Christ appealed to man to "do what was right" as a religious command from God Himself. Think about it. If Christianity never came to be. You'd be in a world almost fully dominated by Muslims and Atheists. Atheist men would have had no logical reason to hand over their power over women. What for?Men are simply "stronger animals", "survival of the fittest", etc. Women's rights would not exist without Christ.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Geogeer
Posts: 4,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:28:30 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 3:21:11 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/11/2016 8:51:14 PM, Geogeer wrote:
There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

Anyone who quotes that verse to defend "equality" (in a feminist sense) of women is not a Christian. If you don't recognize yourself to be a liar, it only shows that lying is so natural to you that it's completely comfortable.

Who said I was defending it in a feminist sense? That would presume that I believe modern feminism to be valid.

That verse just means all real Christians are Abraham's children, regardless of whether we are slave or free, male or female. It has nothing to do with declaring there aren't differences between slave and free, male and female - f@ggot, try to get pregnant without a male and female, see female and male still exists.

I'm arguing equality not equivalency.

Why would a man who says he doesn't allow a woman to have authority over a man declare that there are no male and female roles? Are you really so stupid?

The issue being discussed dealt with the action of women in the church in Corinth (if memory serves me correct) service and the priesthood.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:35:37 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/11/2016 8:29:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Some would argue that women do not have m/any rights in the Bible. However Christian (and Jewish) apologists suggest that the texts may just be mistranslated or misinterpreted. Others say that it doesn't matter the Bible is blatantly sexist in this regard, because it was "written for the times" and should not be taken at face value. But still many Christians today believe the Bible is literal or at the very least strict gender roles should permeate society. What do you believe? And does any of this matter? Do these archaic suggestions (if the Bible were to be interpreted literally) turn millennials away from religion today? Discuss. And check out this debate between myself and harrytruman on the subject...

http://www.debate.org...

Let's keep it real. China is secular. Women are viewed as inferior to men. So secularism didn't get women equality. In the Middle East women are essentially 10th class citizens. But in the areas where Christianity ruled with authority and power, guess what...So...what is the common variable in this scenario that is consistant of areas where women are deemed "equal"? And ask yourself what would happen if Christianity vanished? Would your equality vanish? I think it would. That would be the nonchristian man's chance to put females back in the box. Who says you are equals? God? They don't believe in God. Are Muslim men going to fight for your equality? Yeah right.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:39:49 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 3:26:45 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Not really. Every appeal in the West has been made to the words of Christ. MLK appealed to Christ on racism. "Somewhere I heard...Somewhere I heard..." The same for women's sufferage, etc. God said we were all fre...Christ said...God said...etc etc.

That's because - as you rightly pointed out - Christianity has dominated the Western world, so appealing to Christ (who is considered GOD, i.e. the foremost authority on morality and human conduct) makes sense for persuasive speakers looking to rally a massive group of people around their ideology. But that doesn't mean that rights wouldn't exist without Christ. If Jesus was not the standard, there would be a different standard -- Christianity wouldn't exist, so people wouldn't have to pander to alleged Christian teachings and could use other reasoning to justify their claims.

Think about it. If Christianity never came to be. You'd be in a world almost fully dominated by Muslims and Atheists. Atheist men would have had no logical reason to hand over their power over women. What for? Men are simply "stronger animals," "survival of the fittest," etc. Women's rights would not exist without Christ.

Atheists do not use "might makes right" as their standard for morality.

Without Christianity we can assume there would be a different culture (some would argue more intellectual culture) which could turn people off from Islam and other mythology that people idolize as religious truth.

I see your point that Islam inhibits women's rights, and that's because they largely follow the Old Testament which is not for women's rights... see the debate in the OP! But the New Testament has some questionable sentiments on women's status as well. I think history shows we can use the Bible or religion to support different arguments. For example segregation was allegedly sanctioned by the Bible, but civil rights advocates used Jesus' words in their favor. Similarly the Bible is used to argue against gay rights, whereas many Christians say "God is love" and God doesn't care about gender, blah blah blah.

I agree that Jesus' sentiments (or interpretations of them) can be used to support progressive moments, but I disagree that without Christianity we would be "searching for rights." Philosophers have discussed rights for centuries without necessarily invoking religion let alone Jesus specifically.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:48:41 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 3:35:37 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Let's keep it real. China is secular. Women are viewed as inferior to men. So secularism didn't get women equality. In the Middle East women are essentially 10th class citizens. But in the areas where Christianity ruled with authority and power, guess what...So...what is the common variable in this scenario that is consistant of areas where women are deemed "equal"? And ask yourself what would happen if Christianity vanished? Would your equality vanish? I think it would. That would be the nonchristian man's chance to put females back in the box. Who says you are equals? God? They don't believe in God. Are Muslim men going to fight for your equality? Yeah right.

China is a communist country; it's kind of silly to use them as an example to highlight their lack of freedom vs. the West. Sweden is more secular than China. Scandinavia and most liberal countries are increasingly becoming less religious while more socially progressive and tolerant. Christianity (if interpreting the Bible literally) could easily be used to oppress women. For example female circumcision still exists in Africa in predominantly Christian countries.

Plus Christianity is used to argue against women's reproductive rights, equal marriage rights, etc.

I don't know what would happen if Christianity vanished, but my equality wouldn't vanish lol Christianity is not the basis for rights, morality or law. Only Christians feel that way and it's fallacious to suppose that (subjective) Christianity = reality. It's also completely false to suggest that atheists need religion to not run around killing each other. You should really check out the Philosophy forum -- you can learn a lot. I don't mean that condescendingly.

Most Muslim countries are authoritarian. Communists, theocratic dictators and other tyrants generally do not favor freedom. Many Muslims in the west embrace freedom and suggest that literal interpretation of the Quran is antiquated and outdated, just as Jews and Christians give the same excuse for the Old Testament. But either way I agree that religion is used to oppress and brainwash people. It worked on Christians for centuries and is just recently starting to relinquish its strong hold (not too long ago we were burning "witches" in this country) and many would rightfully suggest the increase of atheism and embrace of reason, philosophy and science outside the confines of Christian doctrine is largely to thank for that.
President of DDO
Rukado
Posts: 527
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 3:55:52 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 3:21:02 PM, Danielle wrote:
Anti-discrimination laws are anti-choice laws and anti-freedom laws, not anti-consent laws.

You're misrepresenting the way anti-discrimination laws work. They don't say you have to hire someone because they are XYZ; they say you can't not hire someone because they are XYZ.

Consent means both sides agree to something before that something is done. Anti-discrimination laws deny people the freedom to refuse to consent to an act, exactly as if the government punishes a woman for resisting being raped in a park, and rewards her rapist (except people not engaged in commercial activities aren't subject to anti-consent laws, so the government still punishes rapists, rather than the victims).

Further, by de facto judicial legislation, anti-discrimination laws don't just prohibit you from denying consent when someone wants your services, they also require that you seek out and hire people of special classes, and give those people preferences, to protect yourself from charges of discrimination. That is, the courts practically require you to discriminate against unprotected classes to avoid discrimination lawsuits by protected classes, to avoid the presumption of guilt.

I don't agree with government regulating the market and I recognize employment statistics as flawed (especially as it pertains to the wage and gender gap), but it would be naive and outright disingenuous for me to pretend discrimination did not permeate the market pretty strongly up until around the 90s.

I suggest you've been conned by the endless drumbeat of propaganda. Anyone passing over the best qualified employee puts himself at a disadvantage to the other person who hires that employee. The Free market punishes and thus minuses real discrimination. Government now interferes with the free market and protects discrimination by punishing people who don't discriminate.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2016 4:30:46 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/12/2016 3:48:41 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 5/12/2016 3:35:37 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Let's keep it real. China is secular. Women are viewed as inferior to men. So secularism didn't get women equality. In the Middle East women are essentially 10th class citizens. But in the areas where Christianity ruled with authority and power, guess what...So...what is the common variable in this scenario that is consistant of areas where women are deemed "equal"? And ask yourself what would happen if Christianity vanished? Would your equality vanish? I think it would. That would be the nonchristian man's chance to put females back in the box. Who says you are equals? God? They don't believe in God. Are Muslim men going to fight for your equality? Yeah right.

China is a communist country; it's kind of silly to use them as an example to highlight their lack of freedom vs. the West. Sweden is more secular than China. Scandinavia and most liberal countries are increasingly becoming less religious while more socially progressive and tolerant. Christianity (if interpreting the Bible literally) could easily be used to oppress women. For example female circumcision still exists in Africa in predominantly Christian countries.

Plus Christianity is used to argue against women's reproductive rights, equal marriage rights, etc.

I don't know what would happen if Christianity vanished, but my equality wouldn't vanish lol Christianity is not the basis for rights, morality or law. Only Christians feel that way and it's fallacious to suppose that (subjective) Christianity = reality. It's also completely false to suggest that atheists need religion to not run around killing each other. You should really check out the Philosophy forum -- you can learn a lot. I don't mean that condescendingly.

Most Muslim countries are authoritarian. Communists, theocratic dictators and other tyrants generally do not favor freedom. Many Muslims in the west embrace freedom and suggest that literal interpretation of the Quran is antiquated and outdated, just as Jews and Christians give the same excuse for the Old Testament. But either way I agree that religion is used to oppress and brainwash people. It worked on Christians for centuries and is just recently starting to relinquish its strong hold (not too long ago we were burning "witches" in this country) and many would rightfully suggest the increase of atheism and embrace of reason, philosophy and science outside the confines of Christian doctrine is largely to thank for that.

Sweden is so anti female that they sold females completely to the dogs. Thus the rapecaital of earth.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...