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Hebrews 12:1

MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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5/15/2016 12:10:40 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

I would argue those people you describe are witnessing what goes on here on Earth.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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5/15/2016 12:19:48 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Hi mcb
How many Bible's have you owned ?
Have you got a favorite 1. ?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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5/15/2016 12:41:50 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

And there were also perverts and fornicators and the scums of the earth like you . And we witness they too are with us. People have been witnessing all kind of things as scientists, law enforcers and academians since the beginning of time. But the name Jehovah did not exist in the original Hebrew and Greek bibles. In fact those who witnessed for God were called 'prophets'. Any wonder why you were disfellowshipped and shunned by the Jehovah's Witnesses, they found you not very bright and a very slow learner. You spent 45 years of your life just getting over your 4 failed marriages.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are modern day prophets of God.

"The Watchtower Society goes as far as to call itself a prophet of God, comparing themselves to the prophets of old. This is a significant assertion when compared to the accuracy of Watchtower doctrine and the predictions about future dates.

"This was the test - the coming down of fire; and the fulfillment exactly on time has proved that Pastor Russell was one of God's great reformers and prophets." Watchtower 1919 Oct 1 p.297
"For an answer, people should listen to the plain preaching by the remnant prefigured by Jeremiah, for these preach to men the present-day fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecies. Who made them a prophet to speak with the authority that they claim? Well, who made Jeremiah a prophet?" Watchtower 1959 Jan 15 pp.39-41
"Those who do not read can hear, for God has on earth today a prophetlike organization, just as he did in the days of the early Christian congregation." Watchtower 1964 Oct 1 p.601
Watchtower 1972 Jehovah's Prophet

Watchtower describes itself as the "modern-day" prophet.

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?
IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"
These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?
... This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses.
... Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel's work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the "prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God's Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom." Watchtower 1972 Apr 1 pp.197-199 'They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them'"
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/15/2016 1:48:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 12:19:48 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Hi mcb
How many Bible's have you owned ?
Have you got a favorite 1. ?

I currently own, in hard copy, the New World Translation (1984 & 2013 editions), The Jerusalem Bible, the New English Bible and the Jewish New Testament, A Hebrew - English Bible, plus of course I have access to a great many more via the Internet.

In the past I have owned Philips, Moffat, Byington, KJV, plus the Q'ran and the Book of Mormon & Bhagavad Gita as part of my comparative studies.

I have to say the NWT is my favourite for two reasons:

1: Most importantly they have made an genuine effort to include the name of Jehovah everywhere that it should appear,

That to me is a reversal of the extremely dishonest translations from which that name has been deliberately removed and replaced with Lord, so as to cause confusion between Christ and Jehovah and thus support the unsupportable Trinity teaching.

2: In the Reference edition, and the 1984 edition they have even included spurious passages along with the list of the manuscripts in which they appeared. For instance Mark has two conclusions, now to scholars as the "Long Conclusion" and the "Short Conclusion", for obvious reasons. The Short Conclusion contains a couple of verses that contradict other parts of the Bible, which is why it is suspect.

It isn't perfect. I believe it has still carried one or two mistranslations, but I suspect that the WTBTS translation committee now feel the same.

Why?

Because if you look on their library site the 2013 edition has vanished, and been replaced by a Study edition which so far only consists of Matthew.

The 1984 reference edition is still available, but no doubt will eventually be replaced by the Study Edition.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 12:10:40 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

I would argue those people you describe are witnessing what goes on here on Earth.

So why have the been singled out when all who live on the earth witness that?

No there is only one reason to single them out, they are giving a good and comprehensive Witness to Jehovah.

That is, of course, also why their stories are included in the Bible.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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5/15/2016 1:53:22 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 12:10:40 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

I would argue those people you describe are witnessing what goes on here on Earth.


So why have the been singled out when all who live on the earth witness that?

So we know we can ask them for their intercession.

No there is only one reason to single them out, they are giving a good and comprehensive Witness to Jehovah.

Or there are more than one reason (see above).

If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Danb6177
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5/15/2016 2:09:29 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 12:10:40 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

I would argue those people you describe are witnessing what goes on here on Earth.


So why have the been singled out when all who live on the earth witness that?

No there is only one reason to single them out, they are giving a good and comprehensive Witness to Jehovah.

That is, of course, also why their stories are included in the Bible.

They were singled out because in chapter 11 they are the topic with respect to the receiving of the promise (which they did not receive) 12:1 is a continuation as you implied as well.
They are clearly witnessing of the events on earth but to whom they are witnessing is debatable. Perhaps to God the father perhaps to men. But you cannot say the watchtower church gets some sort of legitimacy if a group of people in the bible witness to God and you call your church that.
annanicole
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5/15/2016 4:12:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 12:10:40 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Then why do so few people name their children, "Adolph Hitler so-and-so" or "Benedict Arnold so-and-so". Why do expectant parents peruse books of children's names? Come to think of it, why did God so frequently change the name of folks? After all, according to such a great authority as the MadClown, there was "nothing important" in a name in the first place.

You certainly go to a lot of trouble to defend a name, "Jehovah's Witnesses", that:

(1) Jesus Christ never heard of
(2) No apostle ever heart of
(3) Was never used in the Bible as a proper name for followers of Jesus Christ

When asked by what authority the proper noun "Jehovah's Witnesses" is officially employed as the name for supposed followers of Jesus Christ, you came up dry.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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5/15/2016 5:13:25 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 4:12:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 12:10:40 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Then why do so few people name their children, "Adolph Hitler so-and-so" or "Benedict Arnold so-and-so". Why do expectant parents peruse books of children's names? Come to think of it, why did God so frequently change the name of folks? After all, according to such a great authority as the MadClown, there was "nothing important" in a name in the first place.

People name their children for all sort of reasons. I have known a number of Benedicts and at least one Adolf, though the "Arnold" and the "Hitler" were surnames not forenames.

My future wife's name is Imelda after all, lol. Significant for a Philippines resident, tough whether or not that was the reason I do not know since I have never et her late parents.

Jehovah is different.

When eh changes someone's name he changes it to fit in with his purposes for them, and that is tied in with the meaning of the name he gives them. After all his name also ha significant meaning "I shall rove to be what I shall prove to be"


You certainly go to a lot of trouble to defend a name, "Jehovah's Witnesses", that:

(1) Jesus Christ never heard of

Christ heard the Israelite chiefs called his Witnesses by his father and would have been involved in passing the message down to them.

He certainly knew what a Jehovah's Witness is since he was one himself even if he was never called it.

Like I say so often it is much more than a mere name it is a description of what they do, in imitation of Christ and all those other faithful witnesses as listed in Hebrews 11.

(2) No apostle ever heart of

Again not as a name, no, but as a "job" they shared in it.

(3) Was never used in the Bible as a proper name for followers of Jesus Christ

No one claims it was, but it was what they were none the less.

Of course I do, I would defend anything that was wrongly attacked. I have always hated injustice in any form.

The injustice you do to Jehovah and his son I hate more than most.


When asked by what authority the proper noun "Jehovah's Witnesses" is officially employed as the name for supposed followers of Jesus Christ, you came up dry.

No I have not come up dry, you simply refuse to accept that it was by the authority of Jehovah and his spirit through his son.

After all, why should followers of Christ not be called what it is their role in life to be, just as their King was before them?

Better than adopting a name such as "Christian" given to them by opposers anyway. A name that not one Apostle adopted or expressed approval of.

No they didn't adopt the name Jehovah's Witnesses either, no name other than "the Israel of God" was needed at that time. When a new name for Jehovah's people was needed what was more appropriate than for Jehovah to give the "people for his name" that name to carry? Acts 15: 14 Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.

After all, it marks them as entirely separate from false "Christians" such as yourself and al the other thousands of fake "Christian" sects.

They are, certainly at their core, a "people for his name", Jehovah.

However I defend more their right to live up to that name by imitating Christ and the Apostles as they do.
MadCornishBiker
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5/15/2016 5:15:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 2:09:29 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is, of course, also why their stories are included in the Bible.

They were singled out because in chapter 11 they are the topic with respect to the receiving of the promise (which they did not receive) 12:1 is a continuation as you implied as well.
They are clearly witnessing of the events on earth but to whom they are witnessing is debatable. Perhaps to God the father perhaps to men. But you cannot say the watchtower church gets some sort of legitimacy if a group of people in the bible witness to God and you call your church that.

They will however receive that promise when it is due, because they were faithful witnesses to Jehovah.

As will all who prove faithful to him through the current times and then the final test at the end of Christ's reign.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/15/2016 5:18:04 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 1:53:22 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


So why have the been singled out when all who live on the earth witness that?

So we know we can ask them for their intercession.

How can you ask those to intercede for you when we only have one intermediary between God and man. Christ? To ask anyone else is a waste of time effort and prayer.

That is a false belief as is calling Mary the "mother of God" when God has never had nor needed a Mother.


No there is only one reason to single them out, they are giving a good and comprehensive Witness to Jehovah.

Or there are more than one reason (see above).

No, there is only one.

Danb6177
Posts: 433
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5/15/2016 6:00:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 5:15:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:09:29 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is, of course, also why their stories are included in the Bible.

They were singled out because in chapter 11 they are the topic with respect to the receiving of the promise (which they did not receive) 12:1 is a continuation as you implied as well.
They are clearly witnessing of the events on earth but to whom they are witnessing is debatable. Perhaps to God the father perhaps to men. But you cannot say the watchtower church gets some sort of legitimacy if a group of people in the bible witness to God and you call your church that.

They will however receive that promise when it is due, because they were faithful witnesses to Jehovah.

As will all who prove faithful to him through the current times and then the final test at the end of Christ's reign.

On this we can agree. Those who remain faithful until the end (finish the race) will receive the reward.
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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5/15/2016 6:13:55 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 5:13:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 4:12:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 12:10:40 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Then why do so few people name their children, "Adolph Hitler so-and-so" or "Benedict Arnold so-and-so". Why do expectant parents peruse books of children's names? Come to think of it, why did God so frequently change the name of folks? After all, according to such a great authority as the MadClown, there was "nothing important" in a name in the first place.

People name their children for all sort of reasons. I have known a number of Benedicts and at least one Adolf, though the "Arnold" and the "Hitler" were surnames not forenames.

My future wife's name is Imelda after all, lol. Significant for a Philippines resident, tough whether or not that was the reason I do not know since I have never et her late parents.

Jehovah is different.

When eh changes someone's name he changes it to fit in with his purposes for them, and that is tied in with the meaning of the name he gives them. After all his name also ha significant meaning "I shall rove to be what I shall prove to be"

Well, there are (and have been) plenty of people in the states named, "George Washington so-and-so". George Washington Carver, George Washington Duke, and scores of others. One would think that der fuehrer would have numerous namesakes. But alas he doesn't. Why not? There's nothing in a name. Ditto for Benedict Arnold. Why is that?


You certainly go to a lot of trouble to defend a name, "Jehovah's Witnesses", that:

(1) Jesus Christ never heard of

Christ heard the Israelite chiefs called his Witnesses by his father and would have been involved in passing the message down to them.

"His father" never called anyone "Witnesses". He called them "witnesses". The word is never used as a proper noun.

He certainly knew what a Jehovah's Witness is since he was one himself even if he was never called it.

He, nor anyone else, was ever called it.

Like I say so often it is much more than a mere name it is a description of what they do, in imitation of Christ and all those other faithful witnesses as listed in Hebrews 11.


(2) No apostle ever heart of

Again not as a name, no, but as a "job" they shared in it.

(3) Was never used in the Bible as a proper name for followers of Jesus Christ

No one claims it was, but it was what they were none the less.

Of course I do, I would defend anything that was wrongly attacked. I have always hated injustice in any form.

The injustice you do to Jehovah and his son I hate more than most.


When asked by what authority the proper noun "Jehovah's Witnesses" is officially employed as the name for supposed followers of Jesus Christ, you came up dry.

No I have not come up dry, you simply refuse to accept that it was by the authority of Jehovah and his spirit through his son.

Then by all means show us this authority for the use of the proper noun Jehovah's Witnesses.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/15/2016 7:02:12 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 6:13:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:13:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 4:12:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 12:10:40 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Then why do so few people name their children, "Adolph Hitler so-and-so" or "Benedict Arnold so-and-so". Why do expectant parents peruse books of children's names? Come to think of it, why did God so frequently change the name of folks? After all, according to such a great authority as the MadClown, there was "nothing important" in a name in the first place.

People name their children for all sort of reasons. I have known a number of Benedicts and at least one Adolf, though the "Arnold" and the "Hitler" were surnames not forenames.

My future wife's name is Imelda after all, lol. Significant for a Philippines resident, tough whether or not that was the reason I do not know since I have never et her late parents.

Jehovah is different.

When eh changes someone's name he changes it to fit in with his purposes for them, and that is tied in with the meaning of the name he gives them. After all his name also ha significant meaning "I shall rove to be what I shall prove to be"

Well, there are (and have been) plenty of people in the states named, "George Washington so-and-so". George Washington Carver, George Washington Duke, and scores of others. One would think that der fuehrer would have numerous namesakes. But alas he doesn't. Why not? There's nothing in a name. Ditto for Benedict Arnold. Why is that?


You certainly go to a lot of trouble to defend a name, "Jehovah's Witnesses", that:

(1) Jesus Christ never heard of

Christ heard the Israelite chiefs called his Witnesses by his father and would have been involved in passing the message down to them.

"His father" never called anyone "Witnesses". He called them "witnesses". The word is never used as a proper noun.

He certainly knew what a Jehovah's Witness is since he was one himself even if he was never called it.

He, nor anyone else, was ever called it.

Like I say so often it is much more than a mere name it is a description of what they do, in imitation of Christ and all those other faithful witnesses as listed in Hebrews 11.


(2) No apostle ever heart of

Again not as a name, no, but as a "job" they shared in it.

(3) Was never used in the Bible as a proper name for followers of Jesus Christ

No one claims it was, but it was what they were none the less.

Of course I do, I would defend anything that was wrongly attacked. I have always hated injustice in any form.

The injustice you do to Jehovah and his son I hate more than most.


When asked by what authority the proper noun "Jehovah's Witnesses" is officially employed as the name for supposed followers of Jesus Christ, you came up dry.

No I have not come up dry, you simply refuse to accept that it was by the authority of Jehovah and his spirit through his son.

Then by all means show us this authority for the use of the proper noun Jehovah's Witnesses.

I have shown you it many times but you are incapable of seeing it.

However the greatest justification for it remains that it describes what they do in imitation of Christ and the Apostles. That is why Jehovah granted it them in a time of need.

After all, it does more to spread knowledge of Jehovah's name than his son was in a position to do whilst on earth John 17:6.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/15/2016 7:03:21 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 6:00:34 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:15:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:09:29 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is, of course, also why their stories are included in the Bible.

They were singled out because in chapter 11 they are the topic with respect to the receiving of the promise (which they did not receive) 12:1 is a continuation as you implied as well.
They are clearly witnessing of the events on earth but to whom they are witnessing is debatable. Perhaps to God the father perhaps to men. But you cannot say the watchtower church gets some sort of legitimacy if a group of people in the bible witness to God and you call your church that.

They will however receive that promise when it is due, because they were faithful witnesses to Jehovah.

As will all who prove faithful to him through the current times and then the final test at the end of Christ's reign.

On this we can agree. Those who remain faithful until the end (finish the race) will receive the reward.

Therefore the only questions that remain are:

Faithful to whom?

and how?
annanicole
Posts: 19,784
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5/15/2016 7:05:13 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 7:02:12 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 6:13:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:13:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 4:12:45 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 12:10:40 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Then why do so few people name their children, "Adolph Hitler so-and-so" or "Benedict Arnold so-and-so". Why do expectant parents peruse books of children's names? Come to think of it, why did God so frequently change the name of folks? After all, according to such a great authority as the MadClown, there was "nothing important" in a name in the first place.

People name their children for all sort of reasons. I have known a number of Benedicts and at least one Adolf, though the "Arnold" and the "Hitler" were surnames not forenames.

My future wife's name is Imelda after all, lol. Significant for a Philippines resident, tough whether or not that was the reason I do not know since I have never et her late parents.

Jehovah is different.

When eh changes someone's name he changes it to fit in with his purposes for them, and that is tied in with the meaning of the name he gives them. After all his name also ha significant meaning "I shall rove to be what I shall prove to be"

Well, there are (and have been) plenty of people in the states named, "George Washington so-and-so". George Washington Carver, George Washington Duke, and scores of others. One would think that der fuehrer would have numerous namesakes. But alas he doesn't. Why not? There's nothing in a name. Ditto for Benedict Arnold. Why is that?


You certainly go to a lot of trouble to defend a name, "Jehovah's Witnesses", that:

(1) Jesus Christ never heard of

Christ heard the Israelite chiefs called his Witnesses by his father and would have been involved in passing the message down to them.

"His father" never called anyone "Witnesses". He called them "witnesses". The word is never used as a proper noun.

He certainly knew what a Jehovah's Witness is since he was one himself even if he was never called it.

He, nor anyone else, was ever called it.

Like I say so often it is much more than a mere name it is a description of what they do, in imitation of Christ and all those other faithful witnesses as listed in Hebrews 11.


(2) No apostle ever heart of

Again not as a name, no, but as a "job" they shared in it.

(3) Was never used in the Bible as a proper name for followers of Jesus Christ

No one claims it was, but it was what they were none the less.

Of course I do, I would defend anything that was wrongly attacked. I have always hated injustice in any form.

The injustice you do to Jehovah and his son I hate more than most.


When asked by what authority the proper noun "Jehovah's Witnesses" is officially employed as the name for supposed followers of Jesus Christ, you came up dry.

No I have not come up dry, you simply refuse to accept that it was by the authority of Jehovah and his spirit through his son.

Then by all means show us this authority for the use of the proper noun Jehovah's Witnesses.

I have shown you it many times but you are incapable of seeing it.

However the greatest justification for it remains that it describes what they do in imitation of Christ and the Apostles. That is why Jehovah granted it them in a time of need.

Yeah, and exactly when did "Jehovah grant it in a time of need" to followers of Christ?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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5/15/2016 7:08:06 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 5:18:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:53:22 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


So why have the been singled out when all who live on the earth witness that?

So we know we can ask them for their intercession.

How can you ask those to intercede for you when we only have one intermediary between God and man. Christ? To ask anyone else is a waste of time effort and prayer.


The same way I can ask you to pray for me.

That is a false belief as is calling Mary the "mother of God" when God has never had nor needed a Mother.

Jesus is God. Mary is His mother. Therefore...


No there is only one reason to single them out, they are giving a good and comprehensive Witness to Jehovah.

Or there are more than one reason (see above).

No, there is only one.


Or two.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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5/15/2016 7:13:48 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 12:41:50 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?


During and before Paul's time the name Jehovah was not invented nor was it ever used in any context. Pauline Christianity is about the teachings of Jesus Christ not Jehovah.
The name Jehovah is not found in the original Hebrew or Greek bibles. It was first invented in the 1500s by Tyndale and used in the English Translation of the Bible.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

And there were also perverts and fornicators and the scums of the earth like you . And we witness they too are with us. People have been witnessing all kind of things as scientists, law enforcers and academians since the beginning of time. But the name Jehovah did not exist in the original Hebrew and Greek bibles. In fact those who witnessed for God were called 'prophets'. Any wonder why you were disfellowshipped and shunned by the Jehovah's Witnesses, they found you not very bright and a very slow learner. You spent 45 years of your life just getting over your 4 failed marriages.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are modern day prophets of God.

"The Watchtower Society goes as far as to call itself a prophet of God, comparing themselves to the prophets of old. This is a significant assertion when compared to the accuracy of Watchtower doctrine and the predictions about future dates.

"This was the test - the coming down of fire; and the fulfillment exactly on time has proved that Pastor Russell was one of God's great reformers and prophets." Watchtower 1919 Oct 1 p.297

"For an answer, people should listen to the plain preaching by the remnant prefigured by Jeremiah, for these preach to men the present-day fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecies. Who made them a prophet to speak with the authority that they claim? Well, who made Jeremiah a prophet?" Watchtower 1959 Jan 15 pp.39-41
"Those who do not read can hear, for God has on earth today a prophetlike organization, just as he did in the days of the early Christian congregation." Watchtower 1964 Oct 1 p.601
Watchtower 1972 Jehovah's Prophet

Watchtower describes itself as the "modern-day" prophet.

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?
IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"
These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?
This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses.
.. Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. Thus this group of anointed followers of Jesus Christ, doing a work in Christendom paralleling Ezekiel's work among the Jews, were manifestly the modern-day Ezekiel, the "prophet" commissioned by Jehovah to declare the good news of God's Messianic kingdom and to give warning to Christendom." Watchtower 1972 Apr 1 pp.197-199 'They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them'"

History of the Jehovah's Witnesses

Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916)

Led a Bible study group in the early 1870s. As a result of their studies, the group came to believe

Development

1879 - First issue of Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence published ( www.watchtower.org )

1880 - 30 congregations in 7 states

1881 - Zions' Watch Tower Tract Society was formed ( www.watchtower.org )

1884 - Zion Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society incorporated, with Russell as president.

1888 - 50 people were witnessing door-to-door full time, handing out Bible literature ( www.watchtower.org )

1896 - Dropped "Zion" from the name

1909 - Headquarters moved to Brooklyn, New York (current location) ( www.watchtower.org )

By 1909, "Books, booklets, and tracts had been distributed by the hundreds of millions" in many languages. ( www.watchtower.org )

1914 - Day predicted for the Second Coming of Christ. Christ returned invisibly and fought with Satan in a heavenly battle. He was victorious, and now rules the Heavenly Kingdom. Satan was expelled to earth, and his influence was seen in the world wars that followed. The Watchtower website offers several quoted comments noting that the world changed in 1914.

"In 1876 the Bible student Charles Taze Russell contributed the article "Gentile Times: When Do They End?" to the Bible Examiner, published in Brooklyn, New York, which said on page 27 of its October issue, "The seven times will end in A.D. 1914." The Gentile Times is the period referred to in another Bible translation as "the appointed times of the nations." (Luke 21:24) Not all that was expected to happen in 1914 did happen, but it did mark the end of the Gentile Times and was a year of special significance. Many historians and commentators agree that 1914 was a turning point in human history." ( www.watchtower.org )

1916 - Death of Russell, Joseph Rutherford took over as the Society's second president

1931 - Began calling themselves Jehovah's Witnesses (formerly "Bible Students")

Note: The Jehovah's Witnesses were called Bible Student before 1931.
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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5/15/2016 8:19:35 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 7:03:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 6:00:34 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:15:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:09:29 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is, of course, also why their stories are included in the Bible.

They were singled out because in chapter 11 they are the topic with respect to the receiving of the promise (which they did not receive) 12:1 is a continuation as you implied as well.
They are clearly witnessing of the events on earth but to whom they are witnessing is debatable. Perhaps to God the father perhaps to men. But you cannot say the watchtower church gets some sort of legitimacy if a group of people in the bible witness to God and you call your church that.

They will however receive that promise when it is due, because they were faithful witnesses to Jehovah.

As will all who prove faithful to him through the current times and then the final test at the end of Christ's reign.

On this we can agree. Those who remain faithful until the end (finish the race) will receive the reward.

Therefore the only questions that remain are:

Faithful to whom?
Faithful to God through Christ Jesus
and how?
by keeping his commandments
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/15/2016 8:54:51 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 8:19:35 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 7:03:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 6:00:34 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:15:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:09:29 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is, of course, also why their stories are included in the Bible.

They were singled out because in chapter 11 they are the topic with respect to the receiving of the promise (which they did not receive) 12:1 is a continuation as you implied as well.
They are clearly witnessing of the events on earth but to whom they are witnessing is debatable. Perhaps to God the father perhaps to men. But you cannot say the watchtower church gets some sort of legitimacy if a group of people in the bible witness to God and you call your church that.

They will however receive that promise when it is due, because they were faithful witnesses to Jehovah.

As will all who prove faithful to him through the current times and then the final test at the end of Christ's reign.

On this we can agree. Those who remain faithful until the end (finish the race) will receive the reward.

Therefore the only questions that remain are:

Faithful to whom?
Faithful to God through Christ Jesus
and how?
by keeping his commandments

That is certainly a part of it, yes, a large part of it.

Wee do that not mainly by imitating Christ.

By worshipping the God Christ worshipped.

By bearing witness to that God as Christ did John 17:6

and by obeying Matthew 28:19-20 and Matthew 24:14.

Matthew 28:19, 20
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

There is only one group that does all the things in that passage, especially "teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you" which includes Matthew 24:14, preaching door to door as he taught his disciples to do Matthew 10:11-14

11 "Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

It is a cyclical command . We are commanded to teach the disciples we find to seek out and find other disciples to teach then to go out and find other disciples and so on.

The only group doing that, and doing it the way Christ taught his disciples to do it, are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

The truly are the only ones doing the will of Jesus father, and therefore the only ones acceptable to Jesus Matthew 7:21-23.

It truly is that simple, at least in its basis.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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5/15/2016 9:39:55 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 8:54:51 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 8:19:35 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 7:03:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 6:00:34 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:15:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:09:29 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


On this we can agree. Those who remain faithful until the end (finish the race) will receive the reward.

Therefore the only questions that remain are:

Faithful to whom?
Faithful to God through Christ Jesus
and how?
by keeping his commandments

That is certainly a part of it, yes, a large part of it.

Wee do that not mainly by imitating Christ.

By worshipping the God Christ worshipped.

By bearing witness to that God as Christ did John 17:6

and by obeying Matthew 28:19-20 and Matthew 24:14.

Matthew 28:19, 20
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

There is only one group that does all the things in that passage, especially "teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you" which includes Matthew 24:14, preaching door to door as he taught his disciples to do Matthew 10:11-14

11 "Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

It is a cyclical command . We are commanded to teach the disciples we find to seek out and find other disciples to teach then to go out and find other disciples and so on.

The only group doing that, and doing it the way Christ taught his disciples to do it, are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

The truly are the only ones doing the will of Jesus father, and therefore the only ones acceptable to Jesus Matthew 7:21-23.

It truly is that simple, at least in its basis.

The only name that can offer you salvation and eternal life is Jesus, not Jehovah, not Michael. Jehovah is not even mentioned as the name that leads one to salvation or forgiveness from sin.

"The apostles" preaching focused on the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Peter, speaking to the Sanhedrin, clearly proclaimed Jesus as the only way to heaven: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Paul, speaking to the synagogue in Antioch, singled out Jesus as the Savior: "I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin" (Acts 13:38"39). John, writing to the church at large, specifies the name of Christ as the basis of our forgiveness: "I am writing to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name" (1 John 2:12). No one but Jesus can forgive sin."

Do not be fooled that any other name other than Jesus can offer you salvation or forgiveness from sin. The name Jehovah is not found in the original Hebrew and Greek bibles. It is a meaningless name in the English language. The word used was YHWH and Yahweh which is a proper name, of deity Yahweh, the proper name of the God of Israel and God of the bible.

Even Russell, Rutherford and Knorr taught Jesus was God and was to be worshipped.

Russell promoted the worship of Jesus and prayer to him because he is our God.

"It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter--the leading apostle-- "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." .... Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship...." Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3
"It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us....Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
"Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man." Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216
"In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower1906 Jan 1 p.15

Rutherford continued this teaching

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov 15 p.339

Knorr continued to teach we should worship Jesus and the 1940's Watchtower articles still stated that Jesus was to be worshipped.

"Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313

Any wonder why you were disfellowshipped and shunned by the Jehovah's Witnesses. You never followed their teachings because you were too busy marrying and divorcing your 4 wives.
olivetwo
Posts: 262
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5/16/2016 6:59:50 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Absolutely not the JW. The witnesses that says there are those people that mention in chapter 11 ( in context }.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/16/2016 9:14:29 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 6:59:50 AM, olivetwo wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Absolutely not the JW. The witnesses that says there are those people that mention in chapter 11 ( in context }.

Well you are of course welcome to your opinion, most JWs have shared it until they learned different.

However the Jehovah's Witnesses are indeed the extension into modern times of all of those people from Abel, to Christ and the Apostles.

They are, after all, the only ones who can demonstrate beyond any doubt that they are doing Jehovah's will, according to Christ the one over-riding qualification.
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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5/16/2016 6:36:55 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 8:54:51 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 8:19:35 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 7:03:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 6:00:34 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:15:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:09:29 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 1:50:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

That is, of course, also why their stories are included in the Bible.

They were singled out because in chapter 11 they are the topic with respect to the receiving of the promise (which they did not receive) 12:1 is a continuation as you implied as well.
They are clearly witnessing of the events on earth but to whom they are witnessing is debatable. Perhaps to God the father perhaps to men. But you cannot say the watchtower church gets some sort of legitimacy if a group of people in the bible witness to God and you call your church that.

They will however receive that promise when it is due, because they were faithful witnesses to Jehovah.

As will all who prove faithful to him through the current times and then the final test at the end of Christ's reign.

On this we can agree. Those who remain faithful until the end (finish the race) will receive the reward.

Therefore the only questions that remain are:

Faithful to whom?
Faithful to God through Christ Jesus
and how?
by keeping his commandments

That is certainly a part of it, yes, a large part of it.

Wee do that not mainly by imitating Christ.

By worshipping the God Christ worshipped.

By bearing witness to that God as Christ did John 17:6

and by obeying Matthew 28:19-20 and Matthew 24:14.

Matthew 28:19, 20
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

There is only one group that does all the things in that passage, especially "teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you" which includes Matthew 24:14, preaching door to door as he taught his disciples to do Matthew 10:11-14

11 "Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

It is a cyclical command . We are commanded to teach the disciples we find to seek out and find other disciples to teach then to go out and find other disciples and so on.

The only group doing that, and doing it the way Christ taught his disciples to do it, are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

The truly are the only ones doing the will of Jesus father, and therefore the only ones acceptable to Jesus Matthew 7:21-23.

It truly is that simple, at least in its basis.

The bible indeed says to preach the gospel (witness) to the world.

Acts 1
1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

First in Judea (local)
and in Samaria (surrounding areas
unto the uttermost parts (rest of the world)

So I think the intent of the watchtower is scriptural especially with respect to Judea
Now what your church preaches to people is another matter.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/16/2016 9:34:21 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 6:36:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 8:54:51 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


The bible indeed says to preach the gospel (witness) to the world.

Acts 1
1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

First in Judea (local)
and in Samaria (surrounding areas
unto the uttermost parts (rest of the world)

So I think the intent of the watchtower is scriptural especially with respect to Judea

The intent is absolutely scriptural, and it has never been possible to fulfil that until the last century or so. Communications were not good enough.

Now what your church preaches to people is another matter.

Well for one thing they are not my church, they are Christ's.

For another I can easily prove that what they teach is what Christ and the Apostles taught.

Christ taught that he has a God and Father. John 20:17

The Apostles taught the same thing 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3.

Christ taught that the only way to be acceptable to him in the judgement is to have done his father's will Matthew 7:21-23.

Christ taught that the only way to come to his side was to be drawn there by his father at which point he would start the fulfilment Isaiah 54:13 which foretold that all people would be taught by Jehovah. John 4:23-24; John 6:44-45.

Scripture taught that salvation comes from Jehovah. Joel 2:32
32 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said,
The survivors whom Jehovah calls."

Both Peter and Paul reminded us of that at:

Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah* will be saved.""

and

Romans 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah* will be saved."

Just as Jesus taught everyone his father's name John 17:6, so too Paul spoke of his followers doing the same. Romans 10:14-16
14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!"
16 Nevertheless, they did not all obey the good news. For Isaiah says: "Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard from us?"

Jesus taught that his followers must be no part of this world despite having to live in it:
John 17:14-17
14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
15 "I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.

Paul reminded us of that. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31
29 Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced.+ From now on, let those who have wives be as though they had none, 30 and those who weep as those who do not weep, and those who rejoice as those who do not rejoice, and those who buy as those who do not possess, 31 and those making use of the world as those not using it to the full; for the scene of this world is changing.

Jehovah's Witnesses practice that. They teach that once you become a Jehovah's Witness you become a subject of Jehovah's Kingdom under his King Christ.

Hence you do not take part in the politics, either national or international of this world, not even voting or working for any part of this worlds governments.

That is why there is a saying "There are no American JWs. There are no French JWs. There are no British JWs, ect.. From the moment one becomes a JW one also becomes an "Alien living in a land not your own" whatever country you live in.

You pay your dues conscientiously, and take advantage of any benefits those dues make you eligible for at need.

You treat the flag with respect but do not salute it.

You obey all the laws of the land in which you live provided they do not go against God's law.

All those are what Christ taught, they are what the Apostles taught, and they are what the JWs teach.

What do you feel they are wrong about? No doubt I can answer your doubt from scripture, the law-book of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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5/16/2016 9:57:10 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Christians were witnessing for Christ. These were the first century Christians.
Before 1931 Jehovah's Witnesses were called 'Bible Students'. You even got the verse wrong.

1931 - Began calling themselves Jehovah's Witnesses (formerly "Bible Students")

"To distinguish themselves from the denominations of Christendom, in 1931 these Christians embraced the name Jehovah's Witnesses. This name is based on Isaiah 43:10-12." http://www.watchtower.org... "Their Modern Development and Growth"
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/16/2016 10:24:19 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 9:57:10 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Byington Heb 12:1
12 Consequently let us too, having around us such a cloud of witnesses, take off everything heavy, and trammeling sin, and run steadily the race that lies before us,

Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Byington Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, "Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God"s creation:

So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Christians were witnessing for Christ. These were the first century Christians.
Before 1931 Jehovah's Witnesses were called 'Bible Students'. You even got the verse wrong.


1931 - Began calling themselves Jehovah's Witnesses (formerly "Bible Students")

"To distinguish themselves from the denominations of Christendom, in 1931 these Christians embraced the name Jehovah's Witnesses. This name is based on Isaiah 43:10-12." http://www.watchtower.org... "Their Modern Development and Growth"

Actually the reason they were given the name Jehovah's Witnesses was to counter the false name "Russellites".

You say that the 1st century Christians were witnesses to Christ and that is true.
However what you also ignore is that Christ was the primary Witness to his father, Jehovah, therefore the Apostles accepted they were also witnesses to Jehovah.

1 Peter 4:14-16
14 If you are being reproached for the name of Christ, you are happy, because the spirit of glory, yes, the spirit of God, is resting upon you.
15 However, let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or a wrongdoer or a busybody in other people"s matters. 16 But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name.

The brothers were actually ashamed of being called Christian, because they new they were supposed to be glorifying God, Jehovah. So ashamed in fact that Peter had to write to them to encourage them to keep gorifying Jehvoah anyway, exactly as the Apostles had taught them to.

NWT. 1 Peter 1:3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

King James Version 1Pe 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

American Standard Version 1Pe 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Byington 1Pe 1:3
3 Blessed be our Lord Jesus Christ"s God and Father, he who in accordance with his great mercy has given us rebirth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Notice carefully that here Peter is praising the "God and Father", Jehovah, for his son, not praising the son himself.

Exactly the same goes for Ephesians 1:3, as well as other similar letter openings, and that is consistent with the tenor of the entire Christian Greek Scriptures.

As always your bigotry towards God's people "a people for his name" (Acts 15:14) is only matched by your ignorance of scripture.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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5/17/2016 11:24:00 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 10:24:19 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/16/2016 9:57:10 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 5/15/2016 9:58:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Who were these "wintnesses" that Paul refers to, and who did they bear witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Heb 12:1
12 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

King James Version Heb 12:1
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

American Standard Version Heb 12:1
12 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


Sorry you will have to read all of Hebrews 11 if you want to confirm what I am about to state.

The simple answer is that they are a long line of faithful men stretching all the way back to Abel, cruelly murdered by his brother out of jealousy.

So who were they Witnesses to?

They could not have been witnesses to Jesus, since he had not been born during their days.

However they were witness to the same one that Jesus was "faithful and true witness" to as Revelation 3:14 states.

NWT Reference Bible Re 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

King James Version Re 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version Re 3:14
14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:


So who was he witness to?

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:6
6 "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.+ They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

King James Version Joh 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

American Standard Version Joh 17:6
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

Byington Joh 17:6
6 "I disclosed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

He was witness to his "God and father" Jehovah (John 20:17; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:3).

So every one of them was a witness to Jehovah, even though they were not called that.

That makes bearing witness to Jehovah the oldest religion on this earth, and that is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses do, and are.

The only difference is that they are now not only Jehovah's Witnesses in deed, but in name also.

As Shakespeare has been known to say "What's in a name"?

Nothing important, it is what we do that counts, not what we choose to call ourselves.

Christians were witnessing for Christ. These were the first century Christians.
Before 1931 Jehovah's Witnesses were called 'Bible Students'. You even got the verse wrong.


1931 - Began calling themselves Jehovah's Witnesses (formerly "Bible Students")

"To distinguish themselves from the denominations of Christendom, in 1931 these Christians embraced the name Jehovah's Witnesses. This name is based on Isaiah 43:10-12." http://www.watchtower.org... "Their Modern Development and Growth"

Actually the reason they were given the name Jehovah's Witnesses was to counter the false name "Russellites".

You say that the 1st century Christians were witnesses to Christ and that is true.
However what you also ignore is that Christ was the primary Witness to his father, Jehovah, therefore the Apostles accepted they were also witnesses to Jehovah.

1 Peter 4:14-16
14 If you are being reproached for the name of Christ, you are happy, because the spirit of glory, yes, the spirit of God, is resting upon you.
15 However, let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or a wrongdoer or a busybody in other people"s matters. 16 But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name.

The brothers were actually ashamed of being called Christian, because they new they were supposed to be glorifying God, Jehovah. So ashamed in fact that Peter had to write to them to encourage them to keep gorifying Jehvoah anyway, exactly as the Apostles had taught them to.

NWT. 1 Peter 1:3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

King James Version 1Pe 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

American Standard Version 1Pe 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Byington 1Pe 1:3
3 Blessed be our Lord Jesus Christ"s God and Father, he who in accordance with his great mercy has given us rebirth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Notice carefully that here Peter is praising the "God and Father", Jehovah, for his son, not praising the son himself.

Exactly the same goes for Ephesians 1:3, as well as other similar letter openings, and that is consistent with the tenor of the entire Christian Greek Scriptures.

As always your bigotry towards God's people "a people for his name" (Acts 15:14) is only matched by your ignorance of scripture.

You just proved my point. Peter was addressing the first century Christians to witness for Christ. And who was Peter? Peter was tbe rock upon which Jesus said he would build his Church.
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Peter was a discipile of Jesus and like all the disciples was told by Jesus to go and witness to the world what he taught them.

Mark 16:15. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

You ended your career as a window washer not a bible scholar. You are a failed human being, a failed father, a failed husband of 4 marriages, a failed JW member who was disfellowshipped and shunned and remain expelled even after 11-15 years. Yiu are forced to live alone with a dog because no human wants to be near you.

You don't have any understanding of scriptures because you started out in a cult and you spent most of your life between marriages and divorces. You are a loser.

If you were inspired by Jehovah and the Holy Spirit you would not be so ignorant of scriptures and repeated being corrected for your distortions. You are here because of guilt and personal failure and that is clouding your judgement.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/17/2016 12:24:22 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 11:24:00 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 5/16/2016 10:24:19 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


As always your bigotry towards God's people "a people for his name" (Acts 15:14) is only matched by your ignorance of scripture.

You just proved my point. Peter was addressing the first century Christians to witness for Christ. And who was Peter? Peter was tbe rock upon which Jesus said he would build his Church.
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Peter was a discipile of Jesus and like all the disciples was told by Jesus to go and witness to the world what he taught them.

Mark 16:15. He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

You ended your career as a window washer not a bible scholar. You are a failed human being, a failed father, a failed husband of 4 marriages, a failed JW member who was disfellowshipped and shunned and remain expelled even after 11-15 years. Yiu are forced to live alone with a dog because no human wants to be near you.

You don't have any understanding of scriptures because you started out in a cult and you spent most of your life between marriages and divorces. You are a loser.

If you were inspired by Jehovah and the Holy Spirit you would not be so ignorant of scriptures and repeated being corrected for your dis

That's just plain dumb.

Why would they be ashamed to witness to Christ under his name?

No they were being told to continue to witness to God, Jehovah, under the name given them by opposers.

It is not me who is ignorant of scripture, nor who lacks such understanding, it is precisely because I am guided by Christ through holy spirit that I have so much greater understanding than you have ever displayed.

That is why you can only attempt to undermine me with spurious and sometimes completely untrue insults, you know you have no other way because Jehovah's spirit is with em and strengthens me against al such as you.

I need no other proof than that, as described at Galatians 5:22, 23
22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.