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Why do people believe the bible?

AWSM0055
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5/18/2016 9:55:08 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Obviously people are indoctrinated and mind-raped into believing the utter bullsh*t in the bible.

But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things?
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Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,176
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5/18/2016 11:00:44 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 9:55:08 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Obviously people are indoctrinated and mind-raped into believing the utter bullsh*t in the bible.

But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things?

There are other holy books besides the Bible, and they are also accepted. Actually, most people in the world live their lives with these books as their guide.

Many of them were raised with no holy book, and converted as uncoerced adults.

Many of them are not only very intelligent, they also have doctorates in Science, or other higher education degrees. They would disagree with your description, and many are more intelligent, and better educated - in the sciences- than you are. It is almost as if you are the one surviving indoctrination, of a different sort.

So yes, some of them were born into it, some were forced into it, but very many do not fit these types of descriptions. It would be difficult to determine the exact ratio, but I would say your description does not describe a majority.

So your discussion may more fruitful if you question why these highly educated individuals, voluntarily leave atheism, or a different religious belief, to lead a particular type of religious life.
JMHO
Athomos
Posts: 401
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5/18/2016 11:31:19 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 11:00:44 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 9:55:08 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Obviously people are indoctrinated and mind-raped into believing the utter bullsh*t in the bible.

But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things?

There are other holy books besides the Bible, and they are also accepted. Actually, most people in the world live their lives with these books as their guide.


That's interesting.
Would you say then that the current state of the world is a reflection of those books, since , according to you at least, most people are living their lives according to them?

Many of them were raised with no holy book, and converted as uncoerced adults.


Perhaps.

Many of them are not only very intelligent, they also have doctorates in Science, or other higher education degrees.

True.
That alone says nothing. Newton was a brilliant scientist who also happened to believe in alchemy. Should alchemy be viewed under a favourable light then?

They would disagree with your description, and many are more intelligent, and better educated - in the sciences- than you are.

Even if true, that does not invalidate his point. From my experience, intelligent believers are notorious for not applying their cognitive skills to their religious beliefs.

It is almost as if you are the one surviving indoctrination, of a different sort.


Surviving, you say?

So yes, some of them were born into it

Most were, definitely.

; some were forced into it, but very many do not fit these types of descriptions. It would be difficult to determine the exact ratio, but I would say your description does not describe a majority.

Studies repeatedly show that one tends not to repudiate the religion one was raised in.

So your discussion may more fruitful if you question why these highly educated individuals, voluntarily leave atheism, or a different religious belief, to lead a particular type of religious life.

That's not what the op is asking.
He's asking why the belief in a ghastly book such as the bible is so prevalent? A book filled with atrocities, a book which is probably unpatrolled in its moral obscenity, I may add.

JMHO
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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5/18/2016 11:36:01 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 9:55:08 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:

Obviously people are indoctrinated and mind-raped into believing the utter bullsh*t in the bible.

Reading this I knew right away I was dealing with a mental giant.

But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things?

Obviously the entire world is stupid and cannot see through what is easy for your genius.

Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" -

If you're frequently on stamp-collecting sites stupidly insulting collectors, and worship internet dolts who ridicule stamp collecting, you might might want to update your definition of "hobby".

Just saying.
Jovian
Posts: 1,719
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5/18/2016 11:52:11 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things?

Obviously the entire world is stupid and cannot see through what is easy for your genius.

Almost every time I read your posts, I see you with this ad populum argument. And people born in Christianity are 2/7 of the world. Out of those 30%, if we should reduce it down to the actual believers of the Bible, and not just those who are born in an ex-Christian society like me, that would probably make it something like 20% of the world adhering to the Bible.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 9:55:08 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Obviously people are indoctrinated and mind-raped into believing the utter bullsh*t in the bible.

But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things?

Because it is a long way from anti-scientific, and is only really opposed by such as yu who are determined to misunderstand it.

In fact the Bble rarely touches on scientific topics but where it does it is impossible to honestly fault.

When you truly understand it, it's honesty and accuracy soon becomes obvious.

Indoctrinated? Mind-raped?

In truth everyone is, and there is only one way out of it, and that is Jehovah's way, through the action of holy spirit.

Indoctrination is simply education by another name, and one man's education is another man's indoctrination.

People like me have chose to be indoctrinated by Jehovah in fulfilment of Isaiah 54:13, as Jesus explained at John 6:44-45.

As for mind-rape, that is a typical Satanic exaggeration.

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

It is people like you who have been mind-raped in that you have allowed Satan to put into your mind things which should not be there. Things which you would not allow in there if you knew where they came from in reality.
tarantula
Posts: 856
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5/18/2016 12:21:24 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I cannot understand how some people can believe the Bible to be literally true. Much of it is a fantasy tale.
Athomos
Posts: 401
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5/18/2016 12:27:09 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Your doctrine is a fraud and loosely based on a book already not worth the flimsy paper it is printed on.

The bible says the sun stood still on at least one occasion. Show the astronomical records lending credence to this alleged event. Show that at least you understand what the tremendous physical implications would be.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,176
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5/18/2016 12:42:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 11:31:19 AM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 11:00:44 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 9:55:08 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Obviously people are indoctrinated and mind-raped into believing the utter bullsh*t in the bible.

But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things?

There are other holy books besides the Bible, and they are also accepted. Actually, most people in the world live their lives with these books as their guide.


That's interesting.
Would you say then that the current state of the world is a reflection of those books, since , according to you at least, most people are living their lives according to them?

Certainly.
All of the marvels of Science, came about in a world controlled by the people of the books.
All of the horrors of war, ditto.
All of the murders and killing, ditto.

Many of them were raised with no holy book, and converted as uncoerced adults.


Perhaps.
Perhaps???'
You are being very dishonest, or displaying your ignorance. I assume the former.
There can be no doubt that many individuals raised with no holy book, adopted one after they attained the age of reason.
No doubt.
Your denial, or questioning of this, casts serious doubt on your honesty.


Many of them are not only very intelligent, they also have doctorates in Science, or other higher education degrees.

True.
That alone says nothing. Newton was a brilliant scientist who also happened to believe in alchemy. Should alchemy be viewed under a favourable light then?

What a stinking red herring you dig up.
How many of the Jews or Christians who accept the Bible today and have PHDs in Science subscribe to alchemy?
If you say none, you will be closer than if you say 'not many'.

They would disagree with your description, and many are more intelligent, and better educated - in the sciences- than you are.

Even if true, that does not invalidate his point. From my experience, intelligent believers are notorious for not applying their cognitive skills to their religious beliefs.

What's with this 'even if true'?
There is no serious doubt it is true, yet you do not want to admit it.
Have you considered that they would disagree with you? These people with doctorate degrees, who are mature, lucid, pensive, and well trained in the use of cognitive skills, would say you are mistaken.
They might suggest that simply because they have examined the facts, and arrived at a different conclusion than yourself and others, does not cast doubt on their conclusions.
Beliefs, those of yourself, and others, are not eased on empirical data alone.
Your beliefs, and theirs, are based on reasoning, and logic.
The nature of logic and reasoning is that it does not guarantee results congruent with reality. You use anecdotal evidence, generally considered to be fallacious in nature, to assume certain things, about the behavior of others, that have very different core beliefs than yourself.
Then you present these as being objective viewpoints.
When your viewpoints directly contradict intelligent, educated, mature viewpoints, they are suspect, at best.

It is almost as if you are the one surviving indoctrination, of a different sort.


Surviving, you say?

Yes, or experiencing, if you prefer.

So yes, some of them were born into it

Most were, definitely.

And what of it?
Shall we say the same about atheists.
Most of them were born into it, and remained there.
Keeping in mind that to an atheist, an agnostic is an atheist.
Are we to believe that those atheists born into it are not using their cognitive skills?
How does one being born into a religious belief (or lack) guarantee that they have not remained there after serious consideration, and use of their cognitive skills?
It does not follow that accepting ones cultural beliefs and practices is a bad thing, and only those who switch to a different belief system have been using their cognitive skills.

; some were forced into it, but very many do not fit these types of descriptions. It would be difficult to determine the exact ratio, but I would say your description does not describe a majority.

Studies repeatedly show that one tends not to repudiate the religion one was raised in.
So, atheists tend to remain atheists.
Those raised atheist tend not to stray from that belief system.
Almost as if, they were indoctrinated.
Or do you suggest that the religious have been indoctrinated, but not the atheists?
Do you suggest that most born atheists, stray from that, and adopt a religious viewpoint.
Either they remain that way, like the religious, or they leave atheism, and become religious.
That gate swings both ways, as they say.

So your discussion may more fruitful if you question why these highly educated individuals, voluntarily leave atheism, or a different religious belief, to lead a particular type of religious life.

That's not what the op is asking.
He's asking why the belief in a ghastly book such as the bible is so prevalent? A book filled with atrocities, a book which is probably unpatrolled in its moral obscenity, I may add.

Well, I am suggesting that his narrow minded (the holy books other than the Bible are said to have these same characteristics), (his description of them as uneducated and/or unintelligent) is false.
If he starts with false premises, we should expect false conclusions.
Clearly his premises are not accurate.
His concerns can be reframed, based on accurate premises, and will be more likely to yield accurate results.
If accurate results are not your concern, carry on.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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5/18/2016 12:43:25 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I would suspect people find it comforting, or people could potentially find it empowering.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/18/2016 12:52:47 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 12:43:25 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
I would suspect people find it comforting, or people could potentially find it empowering.

It is indeed the only source of genuine comfort in this wicked world.

Only empowering in the understanding that comes with knowing the Bible well enough to understand what it shows us about what is happening all round us, and that mostly comes from Jehovah through his son and holy spirit, though some does come from scripture itself..
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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5/18/2016 12:56:28 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 12:52:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:43:25 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
I would suspect people find it comforting, or people could potentially find it empowering.

It is indeed the only source of genuine comfort in this wicked world.

Subjective statement is subjective. Speak for yourself, and only yourself, please.

Only empowering in the understanding that comes with knowing the Bible well enough to understand what it shows us about what is happening all round us, and that mostly comes from Jehovah through his son and holy spirit, though some does come from scripture itself.

I am confident in the next few hours I will be able to demonstrate my opinion as running very close to the truth.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/18/2016 1:10:58 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 12:27:09 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful. For such one they were an opportunity for their subjects / subordinates to show them some form of worship.

Hence birthdays so but us in danger of worshipping humans.

However there are a number of birthday celebrations described in scripture, and not one has a happy or beneficial outcome.

As for reporting witnessing activity, in the 1st century it was very much a local thing, now it is global, and the Brothers and Sisters are encouraged by seeing the amount of work that is being done and where.

Plus it fits into the scriptural injunction at 1 Corinthians 14:40 "But let all things take place decently and by arrangement."

What is so onerous about reporting 1 hour a month?


Your doctrine is a fraud and loosely based on a book already not worth the flimsy paper it is printed on.

No it is not a fraud, but it is absolutely based on the scriptural record of what Christ and the Apostles taught.

The value each one of us puts on the Bible is bound to depends on our knowledge of its accuracy. Since you refuse to accept such knowledge of course you would not value it.


The bible says the sun stood still on at least one occasion. Show the astronomical records lending credence to this alleged event. Show that at least you understand what the tremendous physical implications would be.

The actual claim in scripture is that the sun "appeared to stand still in the sky for almost the whole day.

I certainly understand what the physical implications would have been had Jehovah not controlled or prevented them.

The trouble is that we have no idea how he did it, though only a fool would doubt that he has the power to do so.

Considering the power he needed to create and maintain the whole universe I have no doubt he could manage such a simple task, or any of the even simpler tasks he performed such as parting the Red Sea over what must have been about a 2 mile front, or preventing the sandals and clothing of the Israelites from wearing out in the desert.

The simplest way would have been to slow the rotation of the earth, and limit the operation of gravity whilst doing so, both easily within the power of the creator of the entire universe, and of course that would leave no astronomical traces, since only the earth would be affected, and that very little with gravity controlled.

Knowing Jehovah as I do I don't doubt that is exactly how he did it, but I can only guess, not know.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/18/2016 1:15:51 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 12:56:28 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:52:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:43:25 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
I would suspect people find it comforting, or people could potentially find it empowering.

It is indeed the only source of genuine comfort in this wicked world.

Subjective statement is subjective. Speak for yourself, and only yourself, please.

The only thing it is subject to is truth. However I can only speak for those who, like myself, now the Bible well enough to understand it's accuracy.

I can only speak to others.

However since it is truth, whether you choose to believe it or not, I would be very remiss to hog it selfishly to myself.

Truth remains truth even if no-one believes it.


Only empowering in the understanding that comes with knowing the Bible well enough to understand what it shows us about what is happening all round us, and that mostly comes from Jehovah through his son and holy spirit, though some does come from scripture itself.

I am confident in the next few hours I will be able to demonstrate my opinion as running very close to the truth.

Close isn't good enough. It has to be the truth, and only the Bible provides that, and even then only if you study it deeply enough, and with the aid of holy spirit, to see what a unique book it truly is, consistent from Genesis to Revelation, and impossible to prove wrong.

Opinion is merely opinion, I shall stick with the truth as revealed by Jehovah through his son and the use of holy spirit. I ave up having opinions about thins I can prove from the Bible long ago.
Athomos
Posts: 401
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5/18/2016 1:23:39 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 12:42:23 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 11:31:19 AM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 11:00:44 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 9:55:08 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Obviously people are indoctrinated and mind-raped into believing the utter bullsh*t in the bible.

But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things?

There are other holy books besides the Bible, and they are also accepted. Actually, most people in the world live their lives with these books as their guide.


That's interesting.
Would you say then that the current state of the world is a reflection of those books, since , according to you at least, most people are living their lives according to them?

Certainly.
All of the marvels of Science, came about in a world controlled by the people of the books.

I think you need to brush on your knowledge of history. Please do focus on a period known as The Lights.

All of the horrors of war, ditto.

Religious wars, you mean?

All of the murders and killing, ditto.


Like religiously driven acts of domestic terror?

Many of them were raised with no holy book, and converted as uncoerced adults.


Perhaps.
Perhaps???'
You are being very dishonest, or displaying your ignorance. I assume the former.
There can be no doubt that many individuals raised with no holy book, adopted one after they attained the age of reason.
No doubt.
Your denial, or questioning of this, casts serious doubt on your honesty.

Just to let you know I will sleep like a deer tonight after your accusations of intelectual dishonesty, which, coming from a Christian, I find rather rich.

You said "many". I want to know how you got to that conclusion. Studies and citations, please.



Many of them are not only very intelligent, they also have doctorates in Science, or other higher education degrees.

True.
That alone says nothing. Newton was a brilliant scientist who also happened to believe in alchemy. Should alchemy be viewed under a favourable light then?

What a stinking red herring you dig up.
How many of the Jews or Christians who accept the Bible today and have PHDs in Science subscribe to alchemy?

So it seems I have to explain to you - and I really shouldn't have to - that you were suggesting, insinuating , that we should give credit to these people on religious matters because of their academic or scientific competence. I merely exposed the folly in that connection. The two can be entirely unrelated, as the Newton case exemplifies.

If you say none, you will be closer than if you say 'not many'.

They would disagree with your description, and many are more intelligent, and better educated - in the sciences- than you are.

Even if true, that does not invalidate his point. From my experience, intelligent believers are notorious for not applying their cognitive skills to their religious beliefs.

What's with this 'even if true'?
There is no serious doubt it is true, yet you do not want to admit it.

Your assertion that many of these people are more intelligent than the OP can certainly be disputed and I suspect you have no factual basis on which to ground that statement. It's just a petty attempt to discredit the OP.

Have you considered that they would disagree with you? These people with doctorate degrees, who are mature, lucid, pensive, and well trained in the use of cognitive skills, would say you are mistaken.
They might suggest that simply because they have examined the facts, and arrived at a different conclusion than yourself and others, does not cast doubt on their conclusions.

That's not my assessment. Typically, when these brilliant individuals discuss their religious affi8liation they use expressions like "faith", "having an experience", "a spiritual bond", "something that gives meaning to life", etc. When a debate does happen revolving around actual arguments - and I've watched countless high profile debates - the performance is almost always underwhelming.

Beliefs, those of yourself, and others, are not eased on empirical data alone.
Your beliefs, and theirs, are based on reasoning, and logic.
The nature of logic and reasoning is that it does not guarantee results congruent with reality. You use anecdotal evidence, generally considered to be fallacious in nature, to assume certain things, about the behavior of others, that have very different core beliefs than yourself.

The personal experience I share, which you could describe as a collection of anecdotal examples and I would not refute that, is congruent with what I see reported almost everywhere else.

Of course, your entire post is anecdotal and nothing but a generalization of the alleged profile of the lettered believer. If I recall correctly, most studies show a negative correlation between scientific literacy and propensity to religious affiliation. Would you happen to have one to back up your views you'd care to link to?

I was never and I am not of the opinion that religious people are any less intelligent than the irreligious. But every single time I calmly look at their offered reasons for believing, they almost always come short.

Then you present these as being objective viewpoints.
When your viewpoints directly contradict intelligent, educated, mature viewpoints, they are suspect, at best.


Fallacious argument.
Arguing from authority, which is doubly fallacious in this case, as their expertise lies outside of philosophy/religious matters.

It is almost as if you are the one surviving indoctrination, of a different sort.


Surviving, you say?

Yes, or experiencing, if you prefer.

You know nothing about my past. Stop pretending that you do.

So yes, some of them were born into it

Most were, definitely.

And what of it?
Shall we say the same about atheists.
Most of them were born into it, and remained there.

How do you know that?

Keeping in mind that to an atheist, an agnostic is an atheist.

Bogus.

Are we to believe that those atheists born into it are not using their cognitive skills?
How does one being born into a religious belief (or lack) guarantee that they have not remained there after serious consideration, and use of their cognitive skills?

Observation.
Nominally, Western countries remain mostly religious and yet the cultural relevance of Christianity, for example, is fading away by the day. Something does not add up and points to the fact that the professed alignment with certain religious views might possibly have deeper cultural causes.

It does not follow that accepting ones cultural beliefs and practices is a bad thing, and only those who switch to a different belief system have been using their cognitive skills.


See above.

; some were forced into it, but very many do not fit these types of descriptions. It would be difficult to determine the exact ratio, but I would say your description does not describe a majority.

Those raised atheist tend not to stray from that belief system.
Almost as if, they were indoctrinated.

How do you know that?

It's extremely disingenuous to equate the two. I don't even care about further elaborating on that, as it's obvious to anyone acknowledging the straightforward fact that Christianity's Sunday School, mass, bible study, catechism, baptism, extent of proselytism, have no equivalent on the other side of the barricade.

Or do you suggest that the religious have been indoctrinated, but not the atheists?

See above.
That you don't acknowledge the difference is what's staggering here.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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5/18/2016 1:24:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I would suspect people find it comforting, or people could potentially find it empowering.

It is indeed the only source of genuine comfort in this wicked world.

Subjective statement is subjective. Speak for yourself, and only yourself, please.

The only thing it is subject to is truth. ---

" or people could potentially find it empowering"

However I can only speak for those who, like myself, now the Bible well enough to understand it's accuracy.

I can only speak to others. However since it is truth, whether you choose to believe it or not, I would be very remiss to hog it selfishly to myself.

" or people could potentially find it empowering"


Truth remains truth even if no-one believes it.

" or people could potentially find it empowering"


Only empowering in the understanding that comes with knowing the Bible well enough to understand what it shows us about what is happening all round us, and that mostly comes from Jehovah through his son and holy spirit, though some does come from scripture itself.

I am confident in the next few hours I will be able to demonstrate my opinion as running very close to the truth.

Close isn't good enough. It has to be the truth, and only the Bible provides that,

" or people could potentially find it empowering"

and even then only if you study it deeply enough, and with the aid of holy spirit, to see what a unique book it truly is, consistent from Genesis to Revelation, and impossible to prove wrong.

Which by extension, makes it impossible to prove you wrong... " or people could potentially find it empowering".

Opinion is merely opinion, I shall stick with the truth as revealed by Jehovah through his son and the use of holy spirit. I ave up having opinions about thins I can prove from the Bible long ago.

-checks his watch-

Huh, quicker than usual.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Athomos
Posts: 401
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5/18/2016 1:32:14 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 1:10:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:27:09 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful. For such one they were an opportunity for their subjects / subordinates to show them some form of worship.

Hence birthdays so but us in danger of worshipping humans.

However there are a number of birthday celebrations described in scripture, and not one has a happy or beneficial outcome.

As for reporting witnessing activity, in the 1st century it was very much a local thing, now it is global, and the Brothers and Sisters are encouraged by seeing the amount of work that is being done and where.

Plus it fits into the scriptural injunction at 1 Corinthians 14:40 "But let all things take place decently and by arrangement."

What is so onerous about reporting 1 hour a month?


Your doctrine is a fraud and loosely based on a book already not worth the flimsy paper it is printed on.

No it is not a fraud, but it is absolutely based on the scriptural record of what Christ and the Apostles taught.

The value each one of us puts on the Bible is bound to depends on our knowledge of its accuracy. Since you refuse to accept such knowledge of course you would not value it.


The bible says the sun stood still on at least one occasion. Show the astronomical records lending credence to this alleged event. Show that at least you understand what the tremendous physical implications would be.

The actual claim in scripture is that the sun "appeared to stand still in the sky for almost the whole day.

I certainly understand what the physical implications would have been had Jehovah not controlled or prevented them.

The trouble is that we have no idea how he did it, though only a fool would doubt that he has the power to do so.

Considering the power he needed to create and maintain the whole universe I have no doubt he could manage such a simple task, or any of the even simpler tasks he performed such as parting the Red Sea over what must have been about a 2 mile front, or preventing the sandals and clothing of the Israelites from wearing out in the desert.

The simplest way would have been to slow the rotation of the earth, and limit the operation of gravity whilst doing so, both easily within the power of the creator of the entire universe, and of course that would leave no astronomical traces, since only the earth would be affected, and that very little with gravity controlled.

Knowing Jehovah as I do I don't doubt that is exactly how he did it, but I can only guess, not know.

Celebrating someone's birthday is worshipping them?
Stupidity knows no limits.

What about beards? Please quote the bible verse banning beards?
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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5/18/2016 2:10:41 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 11:52:11 AM, Jovian wrote:

But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things?

Obviously the entire world is stupid and cannot see through what is easy for your genius.

Almost every time I read your posts, I see you with this ad populum argument. And people born in Christianity are 2/7 of the world.

Let me guess, and it appears to you to be in me, and not simply in your head right? The idiot says that he cannot understand why an idea that has convinced billions of people is so attractive when it is so easy for him to see through it.

Do you ever see him try to answer that? What accounts for his ability to "figure it out" while billions have missed it? Do you believe its his intellect?

Out of those 30%, if we should reduce it down to the actual believers of the Bible, and not just those who are born in an ex-Christian society like me, that would probably make it something like 20% of the world adhering to the Bible.

So what? You are making the appeal to popularism. I am pointing out a logical fault in his argument, not appealing to popularity.

If Christianity is so easy to see through, how come so many have missed it for so long? And how come he was able to see what so many others missed?

I think his position is crippled by what we see in the actual world. It is far more likely that Clown8 is just another young 1st world moron spouting about things he doesn't understand. This is why he can repeatedly claim to see it, but can never tell us how come he could when so many others couldn't.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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5/18/2016 2:36:11 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
In reply to the OP, there are a number of reasons. Probably most prevalent is that they have been told it's true since before their ability to think critically developed and that is difficult to overcome. I can say that with certainty because that's my experience. Others see it as justification to feel superior to those who aren't part of their group. It's a tribal thing much like police forces often develop, an us versus them mentality. It empowers them, in their on minds, to bash anyone who does not kowtow to the same version of God that they do and to feel righteously persecuted when anyone questions them and their belief system. Finally, as others have noted, it provides some comfort and mythical 'better place' for them after they have passed away. It's a perfect slave religion, exhorting its followers to obey the laws of those above them and not to accumulate treasures in this life because they will have mansions and live in a place where milk and honey flow after they're dead. This attitude breeds submissive followers wiling to do things they'd normally find repugnant. Heck, the Christians practice ritual cannibalism every time they take Communion, eating symbolic 'flesh' and drinking symbolic 'blood'. That's about as primitive and repulsive as I could imagine but they do it with reverence. I wandered a bit far afield but I think I've made my point.
bonsai
Posts: 172
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5/18/2016 2:56:57 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 9:55:08 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Obviously people are indoctrinated and mind-raped into believing the utter bullsh*t in the bible.

But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things? : :

The Bible came into man's view long before the latest scientific theories have been discussed. Scientific theories keep changing, thus confusing outsiders who don't understand scientific methods that produce those theories.

Simply put, Bibles and science have confused man ever since they've been perceived in their minds. All a man has to do to be straightened out is to listen to the voice of God and obey his commandments. Then the man will learn how he was created and how he will live in the future.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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5/18/2016 3:07:55 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 1:10:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:27:09 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful.

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,240
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5/18/2016 3:19:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 3:07:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/18/2016 1:10:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:27:09 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful.

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?
Oh Annie, you know he just makes this crap up and that makes it true to him in madworld.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,176
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5/18/2016 3:32:41 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 1:23:39 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:42:23 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 11:31:19 AM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 11:00:44 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 9:55:08 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Obviously people are indoctrinated and mind-raped into believing the utter bullsh*t in the bible.

But seriously, so much of the bible is so hilariously anti-scientific and plain stupid. How could people be so willing to believe such obviously wrong things?

There are other holy books besides the Bible, and they are also accepted. Actually, most people in the world live their lives with these books as their guide.



<snip>
more fallacious replies, and request for me to substantiate the obvious.

Lets cut to the chase.

If I were an educated, intelligent person, who used their cognitive abilities to their fullest, I would be less interested in high school drop outs from rural American, and their religious beliefs, and more interested in Ivy League educated, intelligent individuals, known for their use of cognitive abilities, who had decided to follow the teachings of sacred texts.

For myself, I reject sacred texts.

A special transmission outside the scriptures;
Depending not on words and letters;
Pointing directly to the human mind;
Seeing into one's nature, one becomes a Buddha.

So on your mind reading abilities, and your abilities to judge people's beliefs based on their words you get failing marks.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/18/2016 3:41:56 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 3:07:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/18/2016 1:10:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:27:09 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful.

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?

You couldn't even get birthday cards before Victoria's day.

In the not all that distant past few people had the money to celebrate birthdays, past an "Well you're a year older now lad, let's hope you see many more". But then back then every extra year was a bonus.

However, the only thing I can say about the Bible and birthday celebrations is as I said before, there are very few birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible, and not one had a good or beneficial outcome, and all were Kings or suchlike.

The same cannot be said for wedding feasts. The few of those that were mentioned

As always it is only the message the Bible puts cross to me that makes any real impact on me.

I've ever seen any point in celebrating mine, apart from being given presents as a child, the actual birthday never meant anything to me, after all, I was only one day older than I was the day before. That continues to be my viewpoint.

The only birthdays that meant anything to me were ones on which I reached some legal milestone, being able to ride a motorbike at 16, drive a car at 17 etc.

I guess that is why to me age is nothing more than a number, it is what you are inside that counts. Some people mature early, some never seem to.

I understand that the law has to draw lines, but I don;t, and nor do the JWs. All they care about is that someone who wants to get baptised is mature enough to know their own mind, and knows enough to be able to commit themselves to Christ's service.

People used to ask me why I didn't celebrate my son's birthdays, my reply was always the same. "Why should I be more grateful for their birth on one day than any other? If I want to buy them a present I will, birthday or not".

I certainly agree with the JWs view that it borders on worship, and I suppose my personal attitude to birthdays makes it easy for me to see it that way.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/18/2016 3:44:36 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 3:19:23 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/18/2016 3:07:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/18/2016 1:10:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:27:09 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful.

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?
Oh Annie, you know he just makes this crap up and that makes it true to him in madworld.

If that were true I would need a practically encyclopaedic memory in order to make so few mistakes in my recollections, lol.

Just as well I stick to the truth, at 67 I can't remember anything else.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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5/18/2016 3:54:32 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 3:41:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 3:07:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/18/2016 1:10:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:27:09 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful.

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?

You couldn't even get birthday cards before Victoria's day.

In the not all that distant past few people had the money to celebrate birthdays, past an "Well you're a year older now lad, let's hope you see many more". But then back then every extra year was a bonus.

However, the only thing I can say about the Bible and birthday celebrations is as I said before, there are very few birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible, and not one had a good or beneficial outcome, and all were Kings or suchlike.

The same cannot be said for wedding feasts. The few of those that were mentioned

As always it is only the message the Bible puts cross to me that makes any real impact on me.

I've ever seen any point in celebrating mine, apart from being given presents as a child, the actual birthday never meant anything to me, after all, I was only one day older than I was the day before. That continues to be my viewpoint.

The only birthdays that meant anything to me were ones on which I reached some legal milestone, being able to ride a motorbike at 16, drive a car at 17 etc.

I guess that is why to me age is nothing more than a number, it is what you are inside that counts. Some people mature early, some never seem to.

I understand that the law has to draw lines, but I don;t, and nor do the JWs. All they care about is that someone who wants to get baptised is mature enough to know their own mind, and knows enough to be able to commit themselves to Christ's service.

People used to ask me why I didn't celebrate my son's birthdays, my reply was always the same. "Why should I be more grateful for their birth on one day than any other? If I want to buy them a present I will, birthday or not".

I certainly agree with the JWs view that it borders on worship, and I suppose my personal attitude to birthdays makes it easy for me to see it that way.

Allow me to repeat the question:

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?

The only source that you cited is ... yourself - and I'm afraid that doesn't count for much.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/18/2016 4:00:44 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 3:54:32 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/18/2016 3:41:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 3:07:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/18/2016 1:10:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:27:09 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful.

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?

You couldn't even get birthday cards before Victoria's day.

In the not all that distant past few people had the money to celebrate birthdays, past an "Well you're a year older now lad, let's hope you see many more". But then back then every extra year was a bonus.

However, the only thing I can say about the Bible and birthday celebrations is as I said before, there are very few birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible, and not one had a good or beneficial outcome, and all were Kings or suchlike.

The same cannot be said for wedding feasts. The few of those that were mentioned

As always it is only the message the Bible puts cross to me that makes any real impact on me.

I've ever seen any point in celebrating mine, apart from being given presents as a child, the actual birthday never meant anything to me, after all, I was only one day older than I was the day before. That continues to be my viewpoint.

The only birthdays that meant anything to me were ones on which I reached some legal milestone, being able to ride a motorbike at 16, drive a car at 17 etc.

I guess that is why to me age is nothing more than a number, it is what you are inside that counts. Some people mature early, some never seem to.

I understand that the law has to draw lines, but I don;t, and nor do the JWs. All they care about is that someone who wants to get baptised is mature enough to know their own mind, and knows enough to be able to commit themselves to Christ's service.

People used to ask me why I didn't celebrate my son's birthdays, my reply was always the same. "Why should I be more grateful for their birth on one day than any other? If I want to buy them a present I will, birthday or not".

I certainly agree with the JWs view that it borders on worship, and I suppose my personal attitude to birthdays makes it easy for me to see it that way.

Allow me to repeat the question:

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?

The only source that you cited is ... yourself - and I'm afraid that doesn't count for much.

Not quite true.

I did mention the facts about birthday celebrations in the Bible, though admittedly I left you to find them for yourself. They are there.

I also forgot to mentions that since there was no celebration of the birth of Christ for hundreds of years after his death, and not one mention of such a celebration in scripture, that supports the JWs stance.

If we cannot celebrate the birthday of our King, and we cannot because we do not know the exact date of his birth, then why should we celebrate our own?

We are not ore important than him are we?
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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5/18/2016 4:06:15 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 4:00:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 3:54:32 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/18/2016 3:41:56 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 3:07:55 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/18/2016 1:10:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:27:09 PM, Athomos wrote:
At 5/18/2016 12:17:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful.

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?

You couldn't even get birthday cards before Victoria's day.

In the not all that distant past few people had the money to celebrate birthdays, past an "Well you're a year older now lad, let's hope you see many more". But then back then every extra year was a bonus.

However, the only thing I can say about the Bible and birthday celebrations is as I said before, there are very few birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible, and not one had a good or beneficial outcome, and all were Kings or suchlike.

The same cannot be said for wedding feasts. The few of those that were mentioned

As always it is only the message the Bible puts cross to me that makes any real impact on me.

I've ever seen any point in celebrating mine, apart from being given presents as a child, the actual birthday never meant anything to me, after all, I was only one day older than I was the day before. That continues to be my viewpoint.

The only birthdays that meant anything to me were ones on which I reached some legal milestone, being able to ride a motorbike at 16, drive a car at 17 etc.

I guess that is why to me age is nothing more than a number, it is what you are inside that counts. Some people mature early, some never seem to.

I understand that the law has to draw lines, but I don;t, and nor do the JWs. All they care about is that someone who wants to get baptised is mature enough to know their own mind, and knows enough to be able to commit themselves to Christ's service.

People used to ask me why I didn't celebrate my son's birthdays, my reply was always the same. "Why should I be more grateful for their birth on one day than any other? If I want to buy them a present I will, birthday or not".

I certainly agree with the JWs view that it borders on worship, and I suppose my personal attitude to birthdays makes it easy for me to see it that way.

Allow me to repeat the question:

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?

The only source that you cited is ... yourself - and I'm afraid that doesn't count for much.

Not quite true.

I did mention the facts about birthday celebrations in the Bible, though admittedly I left you to find them for yourself. They are there.

I also forgot to mentions that since there was no celebration of the birth of Christ for hundreds of years after his death, and not one mention of such a celebration in scripture, that supports the JWs stance.

If we cannot celebrate the birthday of our King, and we cannot because we do not know the exact date of his birth, then why should we celebrate our own?

We are not ore important than him are we?

Land's sakes, all I asked was this:

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?

I take it that you do not.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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5/18/2016 4:08:54 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful.

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?

You couldn't even get birthday cards before Victoria's day.

In the not all that distant past few people had the money to celebrate birthdays, past an "Well you're a year older now lad, let's hope you see many more". But then back then every extra year was a bonus. However, the only thing I can say about the Bible and birthday celebrations is as I said before, there are very few birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible, and not one had a good or beneficial outcome, and all were Kings or suchlike.

... you understand the obvious implication of that, right? That is a Texas Marksman argument. Would the Bible have any real reason to give details of birthday feasts or events that weren't significant?

The same cannot be said for wedding feasts. The few of those that were mentioned

So one was mentioned positively, cause, ya know, happy times, and the others were mentioned unfavorably, with each having their own narrative to construct.


As always it is only the message the Bible puts cross to me that makes any real impact on me.

Those few times that it occurs...

I've ever seen any point in celebrating mine, apart from being given presents as a child, the actual birthday never meant anything to me, after all, I was only one day older than I was the day before. That continues to be my viewpoint.

The only birthdays that meant anything to me were ones on which I reached some legal milestone, being able to ride a motorbike at 16, drive a car at 17 etc. I guess that is why to me age is nothing more than a number, it is what you are inside that counts. Some people mature early, some never seem to.

Then why keep track of your age at all anymore?

I understand that the law has to draw lines, but I don;t, and nor do the JWs. All they care about is that someone who wants to get baptised is mature enough to know their own mind, and knows enough to be able to commit themselves to Christ's service.

People used to ask me why I didn't celebrate my son's birthdays, my reply was always the same. "Why should I be more grateful for their birth on one day than any other? If I want to buy them a present I will, birthday or not".

Because its an anniversary, as you stated, a milestone of sorts.

I certainly agree with the JWs view that it borders on worship, and I suppose my personal attitude to birthdays makes it easy for me to see it that way.

That would make wedding anniversaries a form of worship, too.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/18/2016 4:41:55 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 4:08:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
JWs have nothing put in their minds that they do not accept and cannot prove, they don;t just accept what other humans tell them, they check it out for themselves, they have to.

Hilarious.
Where in the bible dopes it say one should not celebrate one's birthday, like JWs are instructed not to? Where in the bible does it say one should not grow a beard, like JWs are instructed no to? Where in the bible does it say you should report time, like the JWs are instructed to?

Birthday celebrations are not specifically banned in scripture for one major reason, back then they were only the province of the rich and powerful.

Do you have a reputable source, either in the Bible or out of it, that indicates that "birthday celebrations were only the province of the rich and powerful"?

You couldn't even get birthday cards before Victoria's day.

In the not all that distant past few people had the money to celebrate birthdays, past an "Well you're a year older now lad, let's hope you see many more". But then back then every extra year was a bonus. However, the only thing I can say about the Bible and birthday celebrations is as I said before, there are very few birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible, and not one had a good or beneficial outcome, and all were Kings or suchlike.

... you understand the obvious implication of that, right? That is a Texas Marksman argument. Would the Bible have any real reason to give details of birthday feasts or events that weren't significant?

Sometimes the significance is simply in the message it puts across.


The same cannot be said for wedding feasts. The few of those that were mentioned

So one was mentioned positively, cause, ya know, happy times, and the others were mentioned unfavorably, with each having their own narrative to construct.

No wedding celebrations had a negative result as far as I can remember.

Jesus even attended one of them.

However like so many other things, back then a wedding feast was the province of those who could afford it, the wedding itself however, such as it was, was a public event celebrated by all who observed it.



As always it is only the message the Bible puts cross to me that makes any real impact on me.

Those few times that it occurs...

The message is a negative one.


I've ever seen any point in celebrating mine, apart from being given presents as a child, the actual birthday never meant anything to me, after all, I was only one day older than I was the day before. That continues to be my viewpoint.

The only birthdays that meant anything to me were ones on which I reached some legal milestone, being able to ride a motorbike at 16, drive a car at 17 etc. I guess that is why to me age is nothing more than a number, it is what you are inside that counts. Some people mature early, some never seem to.

Then why keep track of your age at all anymore?

Other than for legal reasons, I don't.


I understand that the law has to draw lines, but I don;t, and nor do the JWs. All they care about is that someone who wants to get baptised is mature enough to know their own mind, and knows enough to be able to commit themselves to Christ's service.

People used to ask me why I didn't celebrate my son's birthdays, my reply was always the same. "Why should I be more grateful for their birth on one day than any other? If I want to buy them a present I will, birthday or not".

Because its an anniversary, as you stated, a milestone of sorts.

Every day is a milestone. Why not appreciate every one of them. People may be born on their birthdays but they very rarely die on them, so each day is as important as the next, and the one before.


I certainly agree with the JWs view that it borders on worship, and I suppose my personal attitude to birthdays makes it easy for me to see it that way.

That would make wedding anniversaries a form of worship, too.

You could be right. I don't ever recall hearing the official line on that, on the other hand I don't recall any JW I knew celebrating one.

To me anyway the longer a marriage lasts the more it is a case of:

Luke 17:10 Likewise, when you have done all the things assigned to you, say: "We are good-for-nothing slaves. What we have done is what we ought to have done.""

Those who have stayed married have done nothing more than they should have done when committing to marriage, so what is there to celebrate? To pat yourselves or each other on the back for?

In the end, in some things anyway, you have to make up your mind whether or not it is worth the risk of displeasing Jehovah to celebrate it.

Sometimes it is better to err on the side of pleasing Jehovah and Christ than the other way.