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Does the Bible Condone Rape?

matt8800
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5/22/2016 8:51:31 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
@jerry947 and I disagree as to whether the Christian Bible condones rape.

Christians call it acceptable forcible sex. I call it rape.

Maybe its just me, but I think these versus seem to condone rape:

Judges 21 -
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, "Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn"t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. "

Numbers 31 -
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam"s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD"s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

In all fairness, here is a law that condemns rape of betrothed Jewish women (rape of non-Jewish women or single Jewish women is OK). The solution? Kill the rape victim.

Deuteronomy 22 -
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

God will hand over sinners' wives to rapists as punishment. Never mind what the "sins" of the woman were. Praise god for his justice!

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Deuteronomy 21 -
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive"s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, I wonder what they do?

Judges 5 -
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera"s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

If you like rape, god will even assist you:

Zechariah 14-
"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?
Jerry947
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5/22/2016 10:14:44 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 8:51:31 PM, matt8800 wrote:
@jerry947 and I disagree as to whether the Christian Bible condones rape.

True...and notice how none of the verses below mention the word rape.

Christians call it acceptable forcible sex.

No.

Maybe its just me, but I think these versus seem to condone rape:

They do not.

Judges 21 -
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

Nothing about rape is mentioned here.

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, "Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn"t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. "

Nothing about rape mentioned here. Nor does the Bible condone what happened (kidnapping of women). I already explained on this further in another thread. You can respond if you have time.

Numbers 31 -
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam"s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD"s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

And again, nothing about rape is mentioned. The female captives could not be slept with unless they married them. In Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Moses said "When you go out to war...and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

In other words, the females were given time to mourn and then the option of marriage.

In all fairness, here is a law that condemns rape of betrothed Jewish women (rape of non-Jewish women or single Jewish women is OK). The solution? Kill the rape victim.

Deuteronomy 22 -
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

That passage was not referring to rape. It was talking about adultery in which both people were put to death.

God will hand over sinners' wives to rapists as punishment. Never mind what the "sins" of the woman were. Praise god for his justice!

Uh...no.

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Again, this passage has nothing to do with rape and you clearly didn't read the book of 2 Samuel.

Deuteronomy 21 -
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive"s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, I wonder what they do?

They give them the option of marriage.

Judges 5 -
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera"s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

If you like rape, god will even assist you:

Again, you obviously have not read the Bible. This passage is a song written by a woman about their enemy who probably had taken female captives of Israel. And again...no mention of rape.

Zechariah 14-
"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Your not even trying now.

Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?

Yes, you need to read the Bible before you make claims about what it says.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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5/22/2016 10:50:18 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 10:14:44 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 5/22/2016 8:51:31 PM, matt8800 wrote:
@jerry947 and I disagree as to whether the Christian Bible condones rape.

True...and notice how none of the verses below mention the word rape.

Christians call it acceptable forcible sex.

No.

Maybe its just me, but I think these versus seem to condone rape:

They do not.

Judges 21 -
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

Nothing about rape is mentioned here.

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, "Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn"t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. "

Nothing about rape mentioned here. Nor does the Bible condone what happened (kidnapping of women). I already explained on this further in another thread. You can respond if you have time.

Numbers 31 -
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam"s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD"s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

And again, nothing about rape is mentioned. The female captives could not be slept with unless they married them. In Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Moses said "When you go out to war...and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

In other words, the females were given time to mourn and then the option of marriage.

In all fairness, here is a law that condemns rape of betrothed Jewish women (rape of non-Jewish women or single Jewish women is OK). The solution? Kill the rape victim.

Deuteronomy 22 -
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

That passage was not referring to rape. It was talking about adultery in which both people were put to death.

God will hand over sinners' wives to rapists as punishment. Never mind what the "sins" of the woman were. Praise god for his justice!

Uh...no.

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Again, this passage has nothing to do with rape and you clearly didn't read the book of 2 Samuel.

Deuteronomy 21 -
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive"s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, I wonder what they do?

They give them the option of marriage.

Judges 5 -
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera"s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

If you like rape, god will even assist you:

Again, you obviously have not read the Bible. This passage is a song written by a woman about their enemy who probably had taken female captives of Israel. And again...no mention of rape.

Zechariah 14-
"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Your not even trying now.

Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?

Yes, you need to read the Bible before you make claims about what it says.

There is nothing in any of that which would indicate the women have options. It might be arguable whether the book is condoning these actions, but trying to paint it as anything other than rape is laughable.
Jerry947
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5/22/2016 10:59:31 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
There is nothing in any of that which would indicate the women have options. It might be arguable whether the book is condoning these actions, but trying to paint it as anything other than rape is laughable.

Which passage are you referring to and can you explain further?
matt8800
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5/22/2016 11:02:15 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 10:14:44 PM, Jerry947 wrote:

Judges 21 -
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

Nothing about rape is mentioned here.

What was their motivation to keep the virgins and kill the rest? What did they want virgins for? To play checkers? This is blatant dishonesty.

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, "Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn"t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. "

Nothing about rape mentioned here. Nor does the Bible condone what happened (kidnapping of women). I already explained on this further in another thread. You can respond if you have time.

"Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife."

If a man rushed out from the bushes to capture your wife or daughter to take them somewhere to be their wife, would your wife or daughter enjoy sex with them? Maybe for a wedding present, you could give them the book, "The Christian Wife's Guide to Better Sex" so she can know how to please her new husband.

Numbers 31 -
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam"s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD"s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

And again, nothing about rape is mentioned. The female captives could not be slept with unless they married them. In Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Moses said "When you go out to war...and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

In other words, the females were given time to mourn and then the option of marriage.

Jerry, are you married? If you think someone could kill you, kidnap your wife and your wife would choose to marry and have sex with your murderer, that is sick. Atheists thankfully do not share your "objective" morality.

Deuteronomy 22 -
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

That passage was not referring to rape. It was talking about adultery in which both people were put to death.

Really? And why would she cry out if it was consensual? Deut. 22:23-27 specifically talks about the difference of a woman forces sex upon in the city vs the countryside. The context would disagree with you.

25 "But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. 27 For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Again, this passage has nothing to do with rape and you clearly didn't read the book of 2 Samuel.

God will take your wife, give her to your neighbor and make you watch as he has sex with her? If she doesnt agree to sex, what do Christians call that if its not rape?



When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, I wonder what they do?

They give them the option of marriage.

Find me ONE woman who says she would marry her husbands (and sons) murderer and be intimate with him. Would your wife agree to that arrangement?

Judges 5 -
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera"s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

If you like rape, god will even assist you:

Again, you obviously have not read the Bible. This passage is a song written by a woman about their enemy who probably had taken female captives of Israel. And again...no mention of rape.

Verse 10 says they were the "people of the lord", which is who they are referring to that took the women. It is true that it didn't specifically say rape. It just said they took 1 or 2 women for each man as spoils of war. I'm sure you think that as godly men, they only kidnap the women since having sex with their captive slaves would be immoral.

Zechariah 14-
"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Your not even trying now.

Does the verse say that God would bring enemies to rape their wives or doesn't it?
Skepticalone
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5/22/2016 11:24:07 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 8:51:31 PM, matt8800 wrote:
@jerry947 and I disagree as to whether the Christian Bible condones rape.

Christians call it acceptable forcible sex. I call it rape.

Maybe its just me, but I think these versus seem to condone rape:

Judges 21 -
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, "Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn"t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. "

Numbers 31 -
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam"s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD"s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

In all fairness, here is a law that condemns rape of betrothed Jewish women (rape of non-Jewish women or single Jewish women is OK). The solution? Kill the rape victim.

Deuteronomy 22 -
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

God will hand over sinners' wives to rapists as punishment. Never mind what the "sins" of the woman were. Praise god for his justice!

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Deuteronomy 21 -
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive"s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, I wonder what they do?

Judges 5 -
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera"s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

If you like rape, god will even assist you:

Zechariah 14-
"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?

I agree with you that the Bible does condone rape. Jerry seems to be claiming "it doesn't say rape, so it's not rape!!", but that's just dishonest if this is what he means.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
matt8800
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5/22/2016 11:34:26 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 11:24:07 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

I agree with you that the Bible does condone rape. Jerry seems to be claiming "it doesn't say rape, so it's not rape!!", but that's just dishonest if this is what he means.

And to think that Christians want their Bible to be the basis of the "objective morality" that the rest of the world lives by. With religion, the masses believe things that only an insane person could believe on their own.
Jerry947
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5/22/2016 11:43:38 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 11:02:15 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 5/22/2016 10:14:44 PM, Jerry947 wrote:

Judges 21 -
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

Nothing about rape is mentioned here.

What was their motivation to keep the virgins and kill the rest? What did they want virgins for? To play checkers? This is blatant dishonesty.

The people from the tribe of Benjamin were pretty much wiped out and only 600 men were left in the tribe if you read the Bible. Their intention was to marry women and then have children like I already told you in another thread. God nor the Bible condoned the behavior of the people of Benjamin. No dishonestly on my end. At least I have actually read the Bible.

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, "Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn"t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. "

Nothing about rape mentioned here. Nor does the Bible condone what happened (kidnapping of women). I already explained on this further in another thread. You can respond if you have time.

"Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife."

If a man rushed out from the bushes to capture your wife or daughter to take them somewhere to be their wife, would your wife or daughter enjoy sex with them? Maybe for a wedding present, you could give them the book, "The Christian Wife's Guide to Better Sex" so she can know how to please her new husband.

They would enjoy the marriage since they were about to be killed.

Numbers 31 -
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam"s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD"s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

And again, nothing about rape is mentioned. The female captives could not be slept with unless they married them. In Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Moses said "When you go out to war...and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

In other words, the females were given time to mourn and then the option of marriage.

Jerry, are you married? If you think someone could kill you, kidnap your wife and your wife would choose to marry and have sex with your murderer, that is sick. Atheists thankfully do not share your "objective" morality.

You no absolutely nothing about the people that were captured. They were came from wicked societies and they should have been completely destroyed. It was an act of mercy to allow them to marry the Israelites. As for objective morality, since you can't come up with a source of objective morality, you have no room to judge the Bible in the first place.

Deuteronomy 22 -
That passage was not referring to rape. It was talking about adultery in which both people were put to death.

Really? And why would she cry out if it was consensual? Deut. 22:23-27 specifically talks about the difference of a woman forces sex upon in the city vs the countryside. The context would disagree with you.

If you aren't crying out, then you aren't a rape victim. In other words, the women in discussion was committing adultery.

I mean, there had to be witnesses and etc...in order for the death sentence to be carried out.

25 "But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. 27 For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

God will take your wife, give her to your neighbor and make you watch as he has sex with her? If she doesnt agree to sex, what do Christians call that if its not rape?

God allowed David's son to have sex with his concubines. But the concubines gave their consent and willing had sex with David's son. They even set up the tent in which they would have sex in.

When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, I wonder what they do?

They give them the option of marriage.

Find me ONE woman who says she would marry her husbands (and sons) murderer and be intimate with him. Would your wife agree to that arrangement?

Technically the women were supposed to be killed to so marriage looked like a pretty good option.

Judges 5 -
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera"s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

If you like rape, god will even assist you:

Again, you obviously have not read the Bible. This passage is a song written by a woman about their enemy who probably had taken female captives of Israel. And again...no mention of rape.

Verse 10 says they were the "people of the lord", which is who they are referring to that took the women. It is true that it didn't specifically say rape. It just said they took 1 or 2 women for each man as spoils of war. I'm sure you think that as godly men, they only kidnap the women since having sex with their captive slaves would be immoral.

The passage started off talking about the people of Israel and then went on to talk about the things their enemies did. Nice try.

Zechariah 14-
Does the verse say that God would bring enemies to rape their wives or doesn't it?

Because of the wickedness of Israel, God will remove his protective hand over Israel and they will be overcome by their enemies. B
matt8800
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5/23/2016 12:05:51 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 11:43:38 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 5/22/2016 11:02:15 PM, matt8800 wrote:
What was their motivation to keep the virgins and kill the rest? What did they want virgins for? To play checkers? This is blatant dishonesty.

The people from the tribe of Benjamin were pretty much wiped out and only 600 men were left in the tribe if you read the Bible. Their intention was to marry women and then have children like I already told you in another thread. God nor the Bible condoned the behavior of the people of Benjamin. No dishonestly on my end. At least I have actually read the Bible.

My apologies. I did not know there were only 600 men and they needed women. In that case, they can kidnap and rape, er...forcibly marry women.

There are other verses that do specifically condone rape. It appears to be taken for granted as a standard acceptable practice. Regardless, its interesting that God was so specific about condemning homosexuality, working on sunday, eating pork, etc but apparently when "his people" rape women, it isn't worth him condemning it.

If a man rushed out from the bushes to capture your wife or daughter to take them somewhere to be their wife, would your wife or daughter enjoy sex with them? Maybe for a wedding present, you could give them the book, "The Christian Wife's Guide to Better Sex" so she can know how to please her new husband.

They would enjoy the marriage since they were about to be killed.

Really? You think your wife would enjoy being married to and having sex with your killer? Only a religious person has such strange ideas.

Find me ONE woman who says she would marry her husbands (and sons) murderer and be intimate with him. Would your wife agree to that arrangement?

Technically the women were supposed to be killed to so marriage looked like a pretty good option.

In other words, they have the "option" to fvck their families' killers if they want to live. Lucky them. Sounds like a Christian ISIS.

Zechariah 14-
Does the verse say that God would bring enemies to rape their wives or doesn't it?

Because of the wickedness of Israel, God will remove his protective hand over Israel and they will be overcome by their enemies. B

"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Or another way of saying it is that God said he would purposely gather their enemies to rape their wives, among other atrocities. With a friend like God, who needs enemies?
Burzmali
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5/23/2016 12:09:31 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 10:59:31 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
There is nothing in any of that which would indicate the women have options. It might be arguable whether the book is condoning these actions, but trying to paint it as anything other than rape is laughable.

Which passage are you referring to and can you explain further?

The passages that you claimed are about women being given the "option" of marriage. How can you justify calling it an option? What makes you think the virgins, for instance, were allowed to do anything other than marry the men who had captured them?
Jerry947
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5/23/2016 12:12:39 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 12:09:31 AM, Burzmali wrote:
At 5/22/2016 10:59:31 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
There is nothing in any of that which would indicate the women have options. It might be arguable whether the book is condoning these actions, but trying to paint it as anything other than rape is laughable.

Which passage are you referring to and can you explain further?

The passages that you claimed are about women being given the "option" of marriage. How can you justify calling it an option? What makes you think the virgins, for instance, were allowed to do anything other than marry the men who had captured them?

They had other options, but yes, the most obvious direction to take was marriage. So in a sense, only a person lacking in the brains area wouldn't have married their captors.

But again, it would be helpful if you listed a specific passage (several were given) so that I could properly respond.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/23/2016 12:13:05 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 8:51:31 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Christians call it acceptable forcible sex. I call it rape.
Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?

Perhaps two things, Matt:
1) The Bible is not a single book written by a single author. It's an encyclopaedia of changing thought written by multiple ancient authors, most unidentified or unauthenticated, but none with the sort of historical, scientific, or sociological knowledge an average high school student has today.

2) Christians have no assurance what God thinks about anything, because they cannot authenticate their own canon, nor confirm that any of it was divinely inspired.

So because they have to conjecture which parts were divinely inspired, why they were written, and what they were intended to mean, they feel free to do so (and in fact are obliged to do so) on shifting ground. Thus, the Bible, which expresses little to no respect for or acknowledgement of female autonomy, is not an authoritative articulation of God's will toward women among most Christians whose cultural traditions post-date the Enlightenment, female suffrage and the feminist movement.

God's will is in fact interpreted under their cultural traditions, with post-hoc support taken from cherry-picked scriptures in ways that no ancient Biblical scholars (and likely no Biblical authors) would ever have countenanced.

So they have inherited a culture which holds forced marriage, forced sex and female subjugation immoral, and a Bible that prescribes and condones female subjugation while failing to condemn abuses, along with a theological tradition that for centuries supported such injustice.

Christians accommodate all this through the usual theological tricks of evasion, obfuscation and revisionism.

Centuries ago, that wasn't nearly so necessary, due to a greater alignment of culture and knowledge between Biblical authors and later Biblical scholars.

But nowadays that conflict is far more strained. And since evasion, obfuscation and revisionism have become a regular part of modern Christian apologetics, they're now inseparable from what it means to revere Christian traditions. Christian members may not always be equipped to recognise such dishonesty, much less correct it, and I think that's made evident when Christians begin to talk in euphemisms like 'acceptable forcible sex' instead of 'theologically sanctioned rape.'

I have not myself heard those terms used among Christians, but I've heard it among some Muslims: it's not rape if you have a right to sex without consent. Likewise it's not cruel or unjust if God tells you to subjugate female autonomy to patriarchal power.

I find it chilling to see how readily religious zealotry can overwhelm compassionate, respectful, critical thought.
Jerry947
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5/23/2016 12:14:08 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
My apologies. I did not know there were only 600 men and they needed women. In that case, they can kidnap and rape, er...forcibly marry women.

They didn't rape any women and they didn't force any women to marry them. Though, they most likely did marry them.

There are other verses that do specifically condone rape. It appears to be taken for granted as a standard acceptable practice. Regardless, its interesting that God was so specific about condemning homosexuality, working on sunday, eating pork, etc but apparently when "his people" rape women, it isn't worth him condemning it.

You haven't mentioned a single verse where God himself or the Bible condones rape. So you really have nothing my friend.

If a man rushed out from the bushes to capture your wife or daughter to take them somewhere to be their wife, would your wife or daughter enjoy sex with them? Maybe for a wedding present, you could give them the book, "The Christian Wife's Guide to Better Sex" so she can know how to please her new husband.

They would enjoy the marriage since they were about to be killed.

Really? You think your wife would enjoy being married to and having sex with your killer? Only a religious person has such strange ideas.

They would be thankful for not being killed even though they should have been due to the customs of the time period.

Find me ONE woman who says she would marry her husbands (and sons) murderer and be intimate with him. Would your wife agree to that arrangement?

Technically the women were supposed to be killed to so marriage looked like a pretty good option.

In other words, they have the "option" to fvck their families' killers if they want to live. Lucky them. Sounds like a Christian ISIS.

Not even close to what I said.

Zechariah 14-
Does the verse say that God would bring enemies to rape their wives or doesn't it?

Because of the wickedness of Israel, God will remove his protective hand over Israel and they will be overcome by their enemies. B

"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Or another way of saying it is that God said he would purposely gather their enemies to rape their wives, among other atrocities. With a friend like God, who needs enemies?

God allowed the enemies to do those horrible things to his people since they were doing similar things themselves. Ironically, God's people were being punished for doing crimes to those that you have been talking about.

So yes, God is a being of justice.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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5/23/2016 12:14:43 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 12:12:39 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:09:31 AM, Burzmali wrote:
At 5/22/2016 10:59:31 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
There is nothing in any of that which would indicate the women have options. It might be arguable whether the book is condoning these actions, but trying to paint it as anything other than rape is laughable.

Which passage are you referring to and can you explain further?

The passages that you claimed are about women being given the "option" of marriage. How can you justify calling it an option? What makes you think the virgins, for instance, were allowed to do anything other than marry the men who had captured them?

They had other options, but yes, the most obvious direction to take was marriage. So in a sense, only a person lacking in the brains area wouldn't have married their captors.

But again, it would be helpful if you listed a specific passage (several were given) so that I could properly respond.

What, in the text, makes you think they had options?
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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5/23/2016 12:15:02 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 10:14:44 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 5/22/2016 8:51:31 PM, matt8800 wrote:
@jerry947 and I disagree as to whether the Christian Bible condones rape.

True...and notice how none of the verses below mention the word rape.


I can just imagine a scenario where your logic could be used in the real world:

"Officer, I had forced sexual intercourse upon an unwilling female"

"You raped a woman?"

"That's not what I said officer"

Blimey, Christians are getting desperate.

Christians call it acceptable forcible sex.

No.

Maybe its just me, but I think these versus seem to condone rape:

They do not.

Judges 21 -
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

Nothing about rape is mentioned here.

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, "Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn"t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. "

Nothing about rape mentioned here. Nor does the Bible condone what happened (kidnapping of women). I already explained on this further in another thread. You can respond if you have time.

It doesn't condemn it either.

Besides, as we all know, you never kidnap a virgin after a party to then rape them.

Preposterous!

Numbers 31 -
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam"s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD"s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

And again, nothing about rape is mentioned. The female captives could not be slept with unless they married them. In Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Moses said "When you go out to war...and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

In other words, the females were given time to mourn and then the option of marriage.

Nothing better than being allowed to cry before being raped!

Tearful f*cking, the new fetish!

In all fairness, here is a law that condemns rape of betrothed Jewish women (rape of non-Jewish women or single Jewish women is OK). The solution? Kill the rape victim.

Deuteronomy 22 -
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

That passage was not referring to rape. It was talking about adultery in which both people were put to death.

God will hand over sinners' wives to rapists as punishment. Never mind what the "sins" of the woman were. Praise god for his justice!

Uh...no.

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Again, this passage has nothing to do with rape and you clearly didn't read the book of 2 Samuel.

Deuteronomy 21 -
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive"s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, I wonder what they do?

They give them the option of marriage.

That was the most retarded answer I've ever head. It's going on my signature...

Judges 5 -
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera"s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

If you like rape, god will even assist you:

Again, you obviously have not read the Bible. This passage is a song written by a woman about their enemy who probably had taken female captives of Israel. And again...no mention of rape.

Zechariah 14-
"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Your not even trying now.

Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?

Yes, you need to read the Bible before you make claims about what it says.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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5/23/2016 12:31:35 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 12:15:02 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 5/22/2016 10:14:44 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 5/22/2016 8:51:31 PM, matt8800 wrote:
@jerry947 and I disagree as to whether the Christian Bible condones rape.

True...and notice how none of the verses below mention the word rape.


I can just imagine a scenario where your logic could be used in the real world:

"Officer, I had forced sexual intercourse upon an unwilling female"

"You raped a woman?"

"That's not what I said officer"

Blimey, Christians are getting desperate.

Well, it seems that the person who is making up scenarios is the one that is desperate.

Christians call it acceptable forcible sex.

No.

Maybe its just me, but I think these versus seem to condone rape:

They do not.

Judges 21 -
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

Nothing about rape is mentioned here.

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, "Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn"t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. "

Nothing about rape mentioned here. Nor does the Bible condone what happened (kidnapping of women). I already explained on this further in another thread. You can respond if you have time.

It doesn't condemn it either.

Besides, as we all know, you never kidnap a virgin after a party to then rape them.

Preposterous!

Numbers 31 -
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam"s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD"s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

And again, nothing about rape is mentioned. The female captives could not be slept with unless they married them. In Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Moses said "When you go out to war...and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

In other words, the females were given time to mourn and then the option of marriage.

Nothing better than being allowed to cry before being raped!

Married...not raped.

Tearful f*cking, the new fetish!

In all fairness, here is a law that condemns rape of betrothed Jewish women (rape of non-Jewish women or single Jewish women is OK). The solution? Kill the rape victim.

Deuteronomy 22 -
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

That passage was not referring to rape. It was talking about adultery in which both people were put to death.

God will hand over sinners' wives to rapists as punishment. Never mind what the "sins" of the woman were. Praise god for his justice!

Uh...no.

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Again, this passage has nothing to do with rape and you clearly didn't read the book of 2 Samuel.

Deuteronomy 21 -
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive"s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, I wonder what they do?

They give them the option of marriage.

That was the most retarded answer I've ever head. It's going on my signature...

Judges 5 -
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera"s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

If you like rape, god will even assist you:

Again, you obviously have not read the Bible. This passage is a song written by a woman about their enemy who probably had taken female captives of Israel. And again...no mention of rape.

Zechariah 14-
"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Your not even trying now.

Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?

Yes, you need to read the Bible before you make claims about what it says.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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5/23/2016 12:52:16 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 12:31:35 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Nothing better than being allowed to cry before being raped!

Married...not raped.


So a women being forced to marry someone before they get raped is better?

Christians and their "objective morality" are confusing :)

I'm glad our current culture has a new "objective morality" that is very different from the old "objective morality".
Jerry947
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5/23/2016 12:54:53 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 12:52:16 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:31:35 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Nothing better than being allowed to cry before being raped!

Married...not raped.


So a women being forced to marry someone before they get raped is better?

They were forced to marry. But that was the better option to go with all said and done. And again, the Bible doesn't condone what happened. But it does record what happened.

Christians and their "objective morality" are confusing :)

I think you mean absolute morality. Objective morality just means there is a right/wrong.

I'm glad our current culture has a new "objective morality" that is very different from the old "objective morality".

Uh...no. There are so many things wrong with that sentence.
matt8800
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5/23/2016 3:15:53 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 12:13:05 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/22/2016 8:51:31 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Christians call it acceptable forcible sex. I call it rape.
Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?

Perhaps two things, Matt:
1) The Bible is not a single book written by a single author. It's an encyclopaedia of changing thought written by multiple ancient authors, most unidentified or unauthenticated, but none with the sort of historical, scientific, or sociological knowledge an average high school student has today.

2) Christians have no assurance what God thinks about anything, because they cannot authenticate their own canon, nor confirm that any of it was divinely inspired.

So because they have to conjecture which parts were divinely inspired, why they were written, and what they were intended to mean, they feel free to do so (and in fact are obliged to do so) on shifting ground. Thus, the Bible, which expresses little to no respect for or acknowledgement of female autonomy, is not an authoritative articulation of God's will toward women among most Christians whose cultural traditions post-date the Enlightenment, female suffrage and the feminist movement.

God's will is in fact interpreted under their cultural traditions, with post-hoc support taken from cherry-picked scriptures in ways that no ancient Biblical scholars (and likely no Biblical authors) would ever have countenanced.

So they have inherited a culture which holds forced marriage, forced sex and female subjugation immoral, and a Bible that prescribes and condones female subjugation while failing to condemn abuses, along with a theological tradition that for centuries supported such injustice.

Christians accommodate all this through the usual theological tricks of evasion, obfuscation and revisionism.

Centuries ago, that wasn't nearly so necessary, due to a greater alignment of culture and knowledge between Biblical authors and later Biblical scholars.

But nowadays that conflict is far more strained. And since evasion, obfuscation and revisionism have become a regular part of modern Christian apologetics, they're now inseparable from what it means to revere Christian traditions. Christian members may not always be equipped to recognise such dishonesty, much less correct it, and I think that's made evident when Christians begin to talk in euphemisms like 'acceptable forcible sex' instead of 'theologically sanctioned rape.'

I have not myself heard those terms used among Christians, but I've heard it among some Muslims: it's not rape if you have a right to sex without consent. Likewise it's not cruel or unjust if God tells you to subjugate female autonomy to patriarchal power.

I find it chilling to see how readily religious zealotry can overwhelm compassionate, respectful, critical thought.

I too find it chilling.

It is one thing to discuss an old law that said parents shall stone an unruly child and another to discuss what that law really means. Casual conversation does not properly communicate that mentally ill children were thrown stones at until their skulls were crushed and their brains were exposed. If someone had the misfortune of being caught working on a Sabbath to ensure the survival of their family due to unforeseen circumstances, they were murdered in the same manner. Husbands, wives, sons and daughters. These were actual realities that were vividly experienced.

These horrendous crimes would never be tolerated in a civilized society. Unfortunately, the myths and fables that fueled this barbarism are still alive and kicking today. It is a reminder to me that we are not as far away from monkeys as we would like to think. It is chilling to think about how nonchalant people can be about conduct that has been the source of untold human suffering for thousands of years yet is upheld as the desirable standard of morality.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter." Isaiah 5:20.....Irony that is lost on Christians.
RuvDraba
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5/23/2016 3:47:58 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 3:15:53 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:13:05 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/22/2016 8:51:31 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Christians call it acceptable forcible sex. I call it rape.
Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?

I find it chilling to see how readily religious zealotry can overwhelm compassionate, respectful, critical thought.

I too find it chilling.

These horrendous crimes would never be tolerated in a civilized society.
Except that civilised people plunge willingly into madness if madness is what it takes to belong.

It is not madness to say "You can wed me if you want, but I shall rape you anyway." That's an atrocity.

Madness is to pretend it's anything else.
matt8800
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5/23/2016 3:53:07 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 12:54:53 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:52:16 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:31:35 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Nothing better than being allowed to cry before being raped!

Married...not raped.


So a women being forced to marry someone before they get raped is better?

They were forced to marry. But that was the better option to go with all said and done. And again, the Bible doesn't condone what happened. But it does record what happened.

"Forced" to marry. That is exactly what ISIS does and we non-Christians call what ISIS does rape.

You say the Bible doesn't condone rape but consider this:

"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." That was a command by Moses, God's prophet and mouthpiece.

The Bible, in no uncertain terms, absolutely directly condones rape.


Christians and their "objective morality" are confusing :)

I think you mean absolute morality. Objective morality just means there is a right/wrong.

No, I meant objective morality with emphasis on the quotation marks. ONLY a religious version of objective morality would contain acceptable rape. I find it twisted that, if you accept that Moses actually said that, you will go to work trying to find a way to argue why rape of untold thousands of women was not worth condemning by your moral authority.

I'm glad our current culture has a new "objective morality" that is very different from the old "objective morality".

Uh...no. There are so many things wrong with that sentence.

Ill put it another way - I'm glad that a growing non-religious segment of society can officially say that raping female captives is unequivocally immoral. It helps to restore my faith in the human race.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,083
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5/23/2016 4:13:28 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 3:53:07 AM, matt8800 wrote:


Ill put it another way - I'm glad that a growing non-religious segment of society can officially say that raping female captives is unequivocally immoral. It helps to restore my faith in the human race.

Indeed.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
TheGreatAndPowerful
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5/23/2016 6:47:41 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 10:14:44 PM, Jerry947 wrote:

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Again, this passage has nothing to do with rape and you clearly didn't read the book of 2 Samuel.

Are you suggesting that the wives in this case were consenting?
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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5/23/2016 8:34:57 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 12:54:53 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:52:16 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:31:35 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Nothing better than being allowed to cry before being raped!

Married...not raped.


So a women being forced to marry someone before they get raped is better?

They were forced to marry. But that was the better option to go with all said and done. And again, the Bible doesn't condone what happened. But it does record what happened.

Christians and their "objective morality" are confusing :)

I think you mean absolute morality. Objective morality just means there is a right/wrong.

I'm glad our current culture has a new "objective morality" that is very different from the old "objective morality".

Uh...no. There are so many things wrong with that sentence.

I realise that he's only 19 and knows nothing about marriage or sexual intercourse but for anyone to make the obscene claims that this child has made requires a level of indoctrination into a completely degenerate belief system that is dangerous to society.
The beliefs expressed by this person should result in his permanent incarceration, for societies benefit.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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5/23/2016 11:01:30 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 3:53:07 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:54:53 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:52:16 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:31:35 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Nothing better than being allowed to cry before being raped!

Married...not raped.


So a women being forced to marry someone before they get raped is better?

They were forced to marry. But that was the better option to go with all said and done. And again, the Bible doesn't condone what happened. But it does record what happened.

"Forced" to marry. That is exactly what ISIS does and we non-Christians call what ISIS does rape.

You say the Bible doesn't condone rape but consider this:

"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." That was a command by Moses, God's prophet and mouthpiece.

The Bible, in no uncertain terms, absolutely directly condones rape.


They may marry the women and then have sex with them. Nothing there mentions forced marriage or rape. You are just grasping at straws.

Christians and their "objective morality" are confusing :)

I think you mean absolute morality. Objective morality just means there is a right/wrong.

No, I meant objective morality with emphasis on the quotation marks. ONLY a religious version of objective morality would contain acceptable rape.

Your not talking about objective morality. When you start talking about specific actions, you are talking about absolute morality.

I'm glad our current culture has a new "objective morality" that is very different from the old "objective morality".

Uh...no. There are so many things wrong with that sentence.

Ill put it another way - I'm glad that a growing non-religious segment of society can officially say that raping female captives is unequivocally immoral. It helps to restore my faith in the human race.

I am happy with that to. But the Bible doesn't say anything you think it is saying.
Jerry947
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5/23/2016 11:10:14 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 6:47:41 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 5/22/2016 10:14:44 PM, Jerry947 wrote:

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Again, this passage has nothing to do with rape and you clearly didn't read the book of 2 Samuel.

Are you suggesting that the wives in this case were consenting?

Absolutely. It is kind of obvious if you read the passage.
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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5/23/2016 12:41:43 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 12:31:35 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 5/23/2016 12:15:02 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 5/22/2016 10:14:44 PM, Jerry947 wrote:
At 5/22/2016 8:51:31 PM, matt8800 wrote:
@jerry947 and I disagree as to whether the Christian Bible condones rape.

True...and notice how none of the verses below mention the word rape.


I can just imagine a scenario where your logic could be used in the real world:

"Officer, I had forced sexual intercourse upon an unwilling female"

"You raped a woman?"

"That's not what I said officer"

Blimey, Christians are getting desperate.

Well, it seems that the person who is making up scenarios is the one that is desperate.

The "made up scenario" was to prove a point, which you completely missed.

Who needs one idiot of the year award when you can have TWO!

Christians call it acceptable forcible sex.

No.

Maybe its just me, but I think these versus seem to condone rape:

They do not.

Judges 21 -
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

Nothing about rape is mentioned here.

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, "Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn"t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. "

Nothing about rape mentioned here. Nor does the Bible condone what happened (kidnapping of women). I already explained on this further in another thread. You can respond if you have time.

It doesn't condemn it either.

Besides, as we all know, you never kidnap a virgin after a party to then rape them.

Preposterous!

Numbers 31 -
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam"s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD"s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

And again, nothing about rape is mentioned. The female captives could not be slept with unless they married them. In Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Moses said "When you go out to war...and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

In other words, the females were given time to mourn and then the option of marriage.

Nothing better than being allowed to cry before being raped!

Married...not raped.

Force married, which without doubt was followed by forced sex, which is commonly known as "rape".

Tearful f*cking, the new fetish!

In all fairness, here is a law that condemns rape of betrothed Jewish women (rape of non-Jewish women or single Jewish women is OK). The solution? Kill the rape victim.

Deuteronomy 22 -
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

That passage was not referring to rape. It was talking about adultery in which both people were put to death.

God will hand over sinners' wives to rapists as punishment. Never mind what the "sins" of the woman were. Praise god for his justice!

Uh...no.

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Again, this passage has nothing to do with rape and you clearly didn't read the book of 2 Samuel.

Deuteronomy 21 -
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive"s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, I wonder what they do?

They give them the option of marriage.

That was the most retarded answer I've ever head. It's going on my signature...

Judges 5 -
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera"s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

If you like rape, god will even assist you:

Again, you obviously have not read the Bible. This passage is a song written by a woman about their enemy who probably had taken female captives of Israel. And again...no mention of rape.

Zechariah 14-
"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Your not even trying now.

Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?

Yes, you need to read the Bible before you make claims about what it says.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
Jerry947
Posts: 777
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5/23/2016 1:02:11 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
The "made up scenario" was to prove a point, which you completely missed.

The point is that you haven't read the Bible.

Who needs one idiot of the year award when you can have TWO!

I didn't know such a reward existed. How did you find out about it?

Christians call it acceptable forcible sex.

No.

Maybe its just me, but I think these versus seem to condone rape:

They do not.

Judges 21 -
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."

Nothing about rape is mentioned here.

"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, "Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn"t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. "

Nothing about rape mentioned here. Nor does the Bible condone what happened (kidnapping of women). I already explained on this further in another thread. You can respond if you have time.

It doesn't condemn it either.

Besides, as we all know, you never kidnap a virgin after a party to then rape them.

Preposterous!

Numbers 31 -
"Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam"s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD"s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

And again, nothing about rape is mentioned. The female captives could not be slept with unless they married them. In Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Moses said "When you go out to war...and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife."

In other words, the females were given time to mourn and then the option of marriage.

Nothing better than being allowed to cry before being raped!

Married...not raped.

Force married, which without doubt was followed by forced sex, which is commonly known as "rape".

Yeah...you are adding stuff in the Bible that isn't there. Now, if the words "forced marriage," or "rape" was mentioned, you might have had a point.

Tearful f*cking, the new fetish!

In all fairness, here is a law that condemns rape of betrothed Jewish women (rape of non-Jewish women or single Jewish women is OK). The solution? Kill the rape victim.

Deuteronomy 22 -
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

That passage was not referring to rape. It was talking about adultery in which both people were put to death.

God will hand over sinners' wives to rapists as punishment. Never mind what the "sins" of the woman were. Praise god for his justice!

Uh...no.

2 Samuel 12 -
"Thus says the Lord: "I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down."

Again, this passage has nothing to do with rape and you clearly didn't read the book of 2 Samuel.

Deuteronomy 21 -
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive"s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, I wonder what they do?

They give them the option of marriage.

That was the most retarded answer I've ever head. It's going on my signature...

Judges 5 -
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera"s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

If you like rape, god will even assist you:

Again, you obviously have not read the Bible. This passage is a song written by a woman about their enemy who probably had taken female captives of Israel. And again...no mention of rape.

Zechariah 14-
"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city."

Your not even trying now.

Christians say god does not condone rape. Am I missing something?

Yes, you need to read the Bible before you make claims about what it says.