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What is the need for religion?

PureX
Posts: 1,533
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5/23/2016 2:54:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it

"Religion" is generally defined as the methodology by which we humans maintain and act on our chosen theological beliefs, in life. So I assume what you're really asking is why do people living in the modern world need to hold to any theological beliefs? And the answer to that should be quite obvious in that nothing about modern culture has yet answered the more fundamental and crucial questions that we humans have about the true nature and purpose of our own existence. Science certainly hasn't done so, and likely will never do so, because it is limited to the study of physical mechanisms. And although the arts can help us to envision and articulate the more spiritual and psychological aspects of our experience of being, art isn't about finding "answers" for us, either. Art is more about articulating the questions. So theology and religion (mysticism) remain our primary method of endeavor regarding this yearning and need that we have for existential wisdom.
Looncall
Posts: 463
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5/23/2016 4:00:35 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 2:54:23 PM, PureX wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it

"Religion" is generally defined as the methodology by which we humans maintain and act on our chosen theological beliefs, in life. So I assume what you're really asking is why do people living in the modern world need to hold to any theological beliefs? And the answer to that should be quite obvious in that nothing about modern culture has yet answered the more fundamental and crucial questions that we humans have about the true nature and purpose of our own existence. Science certainly hasn't done so, and likely will never do so, because it is limited to the study of physical mechanisms. And although the arts can help us to envision and articulate the more spiritual and psychological aspects of our experience of being, art isn't about finding "answers" for us, either. Art is more about articulating the questions. So theology and religion (mysticism) remain our primary method of endeavor regarding this yearning and need that we have for existential wisdom.

ie "making stuff up"

An important function of religion is allowing lazy thinkers to outsource morality etc. This is even touted as a feature in islam.
The metaphysicist has no laboratory.
PureX
Posts: 1,533
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5/23/2016 4:13:29 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 4:00:35 PM, Looncall wrote:

An important function of religion is allowing lazy thinkers to outsource morality etc. This is even touted as a feature in islam.

Theology/religion is a very broad and long-standing category of human endeavor. All sorts of flaws and misuses will be found to occur. As is true of science, art, philosophy, and human behavior in general.

So what's your point, besides pointing out your own bias toward it?
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/23/2016 4:26:25 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 4:13:29 PM, PureX wrote:
At 5/23/2016 4:00:35 PM, Looncall wrote:

An important function of religion is allowing lazy thinkers to outsource morality etc. This is even touted as a feature in islam.

Theology/religion is a very broad and long-standing category of human endeavor. All sorts of flaws and misuses will be found to occur. As is true of science, art, philosophy, and human behavior in general.

So what's your point, besides pointing out your own bias toward it?

But art, philosophy, science and human behaviour aren't based off of contradictory, fallacious, improbable and bigoted claims of an invisible man in the sky, who rewards saved child murderers with eternal paradise yet the man who has helped humanity all his life working for charities and the like will be eternally tortured because he feels a natural sexual attraction to a member of the same sex....... Doesn't God sound great!?
janesix
Posts: 3,491
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5/23/2016 8:00:20 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it

I think the main "need" of religion is to control people's behavior.

I have a funny feeling that the majority of people don't even ask the "big" questions.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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5/23/2016 9:08:14 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it

The Bible said you'd say that.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/23/2016 9:18:16 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it

Religion can be thought of as a sociological category -- that is, a category of psychosocial identity (though not every such identity is a religion.) If we look at what recognises religious identity it's pretty broad, and can include:
a) embrace of customs;
b) embrace of myths including (but not always requiring) myths about gods;
c) the sanctification of places, items, images and ideas, and
d) deference to clergy.

In a modern world every culture has its customs, but there is no particular value in religious customs taking precedence over secular needs, and great social value in adapting custom to suit the people we deal with.

In a modern world, we accept that mythology must give way to fact. Having proven themselves inaccurate and erroneous, religious myths have largely been displaced with better information. Consequently, they have retreated to places where ignorance still holds (like 'what happened before the big bang?' or 'how did life appear before evolution?'), thus undermining the authority of previous religious revelation. It is appropriate that they retreat in this way, since the authority of religious myths has led to a great deal of cruelty and injustice. A chief source of squabbles between religion and secularism today is over the right for the religious to continue treat their debunked myths as true, and thus use them to inform social policy. In the developed world, it is a fight the religious have largely lost, though religious prejudices still abound.

A growing and globalised population is putting increasing pressure on the sacred -- for example, church buildings are being repurposed to private and commercial use; cemeteries are being moved so land can be repurposed; religious festivals, images and monuments are becoming secularised: symbols of culture, rather than faith. That has tended to make the sacred more abstract over time.

Increasingly, we're seeing pressure for clergy to be treated as a profession accountable within society, rather than a professional class dictating from outside society and exempt from its laws. In European tradition, this began with the Protestant Reformation, but continues today with international investigations into religious paedophilia, pressure to limit the privileges of confessional sanctity, and demand for churches to be treated as corporates.

RA, I think the evidence is that developed societies have already told their clerical classes that we can largely do without the institutions they have promoted and exploited, and that religion is to take a back seat to secular interests. I think religion is increasingly becoming an inspirational cultural expression, rather than a moral authority.

The question of whether we need these particular inspirational cultural expressions or some others or a mixture is an open one. But I agree that we no longer need religious claim to moral and intellectual authority or the corrupt, dishonest class of professional apologists it has created.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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5/23/2016 9:31:49 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 9:18:16 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it

Religion can be thought of as a sociological category -- that is, a category of psychosocial identity (though not every such identity is a religion.) If we look at what recognises religious identity it's pretty broad, and can include:
a) embrace of customs;
b) embrace of myths including (but not always requiring) myths about gods;
c) the sanctification of places, items, images and ideas, and
d) deference to clergy.

In a modern world every culture has its customs, but there is no particular value in religious customs taking precedence over secular needs, and great social value in adapting custom to suit the people we deal with.

In a modern world, we accept that mythology must give way to fact. Having proven themselves inaccurate and erroneous, religious myths have largely been displaced with better information. Consequently, they have retreated to places where ignorance still holds (like 'what happened before the big bang?' or 'how did life appear before evolution?'), thus undermining the authority of previous religious revelation. It is appropriate that they retreat in this way, since the authority of religious myths has led to a great deal of cruelty and injustice. A chief source of squabbles between religion and secularism today is over the right for the religious to continue treat their debunked myths as true, and thus use them to inform social policy. In the developed world, it is a fight the religious have largely lost, though religious prejudices still abound.

A growing and globalised population is putting increasing pressure on the sacred -- for example, church buildings are being repurposed to private and commercial use; cemeteries are being moved so land can be repurposed; religious festivals, images and monuments are becoming secularised: symbols of culture, rather than faith. That has tended to make the sacred more abstract over time.

Increasingly, we're seeing pressure for clergy to be treated as a profession accountable within society, rather than a professional class dictating from outside society and exempt from its laws. In European tradition, this began with the Protestant Reformation, but continues today with international investigations into religious paedophilia, pressure to limit the privileges of confessional sanctity, and demand for churches to be treated as corporates.

RA, I think the evidence is that developed societies have already told their clerical classes that we can largely do without the institutions they have promoted and exploited, and that religion is to take a back seat to secular interests. I think religion is increasingly becoming an inspirational cultural expression, rather than a moral authority.

The question of whether we need these particular inspirational cultural expressions or some others or a mixture is an open one. But I agree that we no longer need religious claim to moral and intellectual authority or the corrupt, dishonest class of professional apologists it has created.

A very good analysis, in my view.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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5/23/2016 11:19:17 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?

I saw atheist when I read idiots. Wierd...but not really.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/23/2016 11:23:17 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 11:19:17 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?

I saw atheist when I read idiots. Wierd...but not really.

Off-topic, unconstructive, boring. Skipped.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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5/23/2016 11:27:14 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 11:23:17 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:19:17 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?

I saw atheist when I read idiots. Wierd...but not really.

Off-topic, unconstructive, boring. Skipped.

Like magic, I mirrored your stupid comment. Anything else?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/23/2016 11:40:42 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 11:27:14 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:23:17 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:19:17 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?

I saw atheist when I read idiots. Wierd...but not really.

Off-topic, unconstructive, boring. Skipped.

Like magic, I mirrored your stupid comment. Anything else?

Off-topic, unconstructive, boring. Skipped.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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5/23/2016 11:59:10 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 11:40:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:27:14 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:23:17 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:19:17 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?

I saw atheist when I read idiots. Wierd...but not really.

Off-topic, unconstructive, boring. Skipped.

Like magic, I mirrored your stupid comment. Anything else?

Off-topic, unconstructive, boring. Skipped.

Like nagic I mirrored your stupid comment. Anything else?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
PureX
Posts: 1,533
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5/24/2016 12:01:51 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 4:26:25 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/23/2016 4:13:29 PM, PureX wrote:
At 5/23/2016 4:00:35 PM, Looncall wrote:

An important function of religion is allowing lazy thinkers to outsource morality etc. This is even touted as a feature in islam.

Theology/religion is a very broad and long-standing category of human endeavor. All sorts of flaws and misuses will be found to occur. As is true of science, art, philosophy, and human behavior in general.

So what's your point, besides pointing out your own bias toward it?

But art, philosophy, science and human behaviour aren't based off of contradictory, fallacious, improbable and bigoted claims ---

You asked what religion is for, and I answered you. I'm not interested in your litany of complaints against the specific beliefs and practices of a specific religious sect. Of course some of these will be bizarre and irrational. So will some specific beliefs and practices of some specific artists, philosophers, and scientists. That's just human nature.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/24/2016 12:03:57 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 11:59:10 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:40:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:27:14 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:23:17 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:19:17 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?

I saw atheist when I read idiots. Wierd...but not really.

Off-topic, unconstructive, boring. Skipped.

Like magic, I mirrored your stupid comment. Anything else?

Off-topic, unconstructive, boring. Skipped.

Like nagic I mirrored your stupid comment. Anything else?

Since you're bored, here, courtesy of GTA 5 player Sir Nosaj, is an instructional video on playing in traffic.
PureX
Posts: 1,533
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5/24/2016 12:10:28 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 8:00:20 PM, janesix wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it

I think the main "need" of religion is to control people's behavior.

I have a funny feeling that the majority of people don't even ask the "big" questions.

You're referring to religious organizations, here, not "religion" itself. Religion is just a category of human endeavor.

But I agree with you that very often the primary purpose of religious organization is to control the thoughts and behaviors of the people it purports to organize and serve.

And in any authoritarian organization (religious or otherwise), asking questions tends to be severely discouraged. Especially questions of a profound nature, or that would directly impact the organization's imposed authority.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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5/24/2016 2:22:18 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?
Lol, or people who thought someone was "incoherent" despite having 45 years of demonstrable writing abilities that satisfied a professor of philosophy at Yale with his doctoral dissertation for his PhD (redundancy is warranted), was honored with the Fulbright scholarship, and was a Woodrow Wilson fellow at U of Texas, Austin proving more than an adequate understanding of the English language. Did I mention he won the United States Natl. short story contest among 100 thousand entries at the age of 16?

I've always considered that history as a prerequisite for someone being, lets say it again Ruv, "incoherent"......lmfao
You don't honestly think i'll respect your opinion after I set you up for that egotistical fall and you took the bait ......I will however respect some of what you think seems to be a consistent logical train of thought Ruv, and give ya a hard time all in good fun as I hope it's come across that way...that is my intention after all, nothing personal about you, just some things you type...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/24/2016 2:34:49 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 2:22:18 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?
Lol, or people who thought someone was "incoherent" despite having 45 years of demonstrable writing abilities
This isn't relevant to the current topic, Skips.

On the other matter, while I cannot recall the passage now, I do recall explaining why it was incoherent, and also recall you declining to explain what it meant, while evading admission that you didn't understand it yourself.

If you want to set an intellectual trap, you should do it with something you actually understand. Otherwise you're left arguing (as you did) that while you didn't understand it yourself, it had to be coherent because look at the writer's credentials. :p
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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5/24/2016 2:55:10 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 2:34:49 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/24/2016 2:22:18 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?
Lol, or people who thought someone was "incoherent" despite having 45 years of demonstrable writing abilities
This isn't relevant to the current topic, Skips.

On the other matter, while I cannot recall the passage now, I do recall explaining why it was incoherent, and also recall you declining to explain what it meant, while evading admission that you didn't understand it yourself.

If you want to set an intellectual trap, you should do it with something you actually understand. Otherwise you're left arguing (as you did) that while you didn't understand it yourself, it had to be coherent because look at the writer's credentials. :p
Still parading that around are ya? I understand my uncle completely as I have had numerous conversations with him.....you're even more arrogant than I'd remembered......oh, did I mention I've known him all my life, being my dads little brother.....lol.....who's laughing now. What's next, "yeah just because he's your uncle doesn't mean you ever asked him anything"
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/24/2016 5:35:47 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 2:55:10 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/24/2016 2:34:49 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/24/2016 2:22:18 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 11:13:33 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/23/2016 9:36:14 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/23/2016 1:59:50 PM, RedAtheist912 wrote:
Nothing we 21st century humans cannot do without it
What is the need for idiots who think they know what is "of need"?

You mean: philosophers, social commentators, and of course religious moralists?
Lol, or people who thought someone was "incoherent" despite having 45 years of demonstrable writing abilities
This isn't relevant to the current topic, Skips.

On the other matter, while I cannot recall the passage now, I do recall explaining why it was incoherent, and also recall you declining to explain what it meant, while evading admission that you didn't understand it yourself.

If you want to set an intellectual trap, you should do it with something you actually understand.
Still parading that around are ya?
Actually, you were... to the point of interrupting another thread with an irrelevance.

Is this supposed to go somewhere? Do you feel it has arrived there yet?

If so, I wish you joy of returning to topic.

If not, why not start a dedicated thread.