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People of no religion exceed Christians (UK)

Daedal
Posts: 157
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5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Interesting link here:

http://www.theguardian.com...

Extract:

The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/24/2016 10:44:07 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
Interesting link here:

http://www.theguardian.com...

Extract:

The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

Just because there are more of them doesn't make them right.

In fact the majority of those who choose to call themselves Christian don't even know what doing so really demands of them.
Daedal
Posts: 157
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5/24/2016 10:56:21 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Your second point is certainly valid. I think many people are ticking the christian box out of habit.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/24/2016 11:11:34 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 10:56:21 AM, Daedal wrote:
Your second point is certainly valid. I think many people are ticking the christian box out of habit.

Yes, the sad thing is that Christ will count them as unbelievers, because they have neither been taught, nor learned to worship the right ones in the right way John 4:23-24; Matthew 7:21-23.

However, as to my first point, you only have to look back through history, as far as you like, to realise that the majority is almost invariably wrong.

Why?

Because the majority prefer to be led rather than make their own decisions.

That applies to both Atheists and the majority of theists I'm afraid. You only have to watch the American Presidential Campaigns to see the truth of that.

What more can I say other than "remember Hitler". So many otherwise "normal" and sensible people allowing themselves to be led by the nose by a brilliant orator, who was himself almost certainly a puppet of those standing behind him, dazzled by the chance of fame and fortune, and eventually driven insane by it.

It wont please many people but when I see Donald Trump in full flow it takes me back to film of Hitler doing similar.

His style is the same, give the people a common enemy. He just changes that "enemy" from area to area it seems.

The Brexit campaigners over here are doing the same using fear of mass immigration, making immigrants the "enemy".
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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5/24/2016 4:48:47 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 11:11:34 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 10:56:21 AM, Daedal wrote:
Your second point is certainly valid. I think many people are ticking the christian box out of habit.

Yes, the sad thing is that Christ will count them as unbelievers, because they have neither been taught, nor learned to worship the right ones in the right way John 4:23-24; Matthew 7:21-23.

However, as to my first point, you only have to look back through history, as far as you like, to realise that the majority is almost invariably wrong.

Why?

Because the majority prefer to be led rather than make their own decisions.

That applies to both Atheists and the majority of theists I'm afraid. You only have to watch the American Presidential Campaigns to see the truth of that.

Well, the majority elected Obama, didn't they?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/24/2016 4:56:24 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 4:48:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 11:11:34 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 10:56:21 AM, Daedal wrote:
Your second point is certainly valid. I think many people are ticking the christian box out of habit.

Yes, the sad thing is that Christ will count them as unbelievers, because they have neither been taught, nor learned to worship the right ones in the right way John 4:23-24; Matthew 7:21-23.

However, as to my first point, you only have to look back through history, as far as you like, to realise that the majority is almost invariably wrong.

Why?

Because the majority prefer to be led rather than make their own decisions.

That applies to both Atheists and the majority of theists I'm afraid. You only have to watch the American Presidential Campaigns to see the truth of that.

Well, the majority elected Obama, didn't they?

True, but were they right or wrong?

After all, in the eyes of both Christ and his father they were wrong to vote at all, whichever way they voted.

JWs "vote" every day, but they "vote" only for Jehovah's Kingdom under Christ. They accept no lesser government as ultimately over them, and care not for the identity of any lesser one.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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5/24/2016 5:06:46 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 4:56:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 4:48:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 11:11:34 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 10:56:21 AM, Daedal wrote:
Your second point is certainly valid. I think many people are ticking the christian box out of habit.

Yes, the sad thing is that Christ will count them as unbelievers, because they have neither been taught, nor learned to worship the right ones in the right way John 4:23-24; Matthew 7:21-23.

However, as to my first point, you only have to look back through history, as far as you like, to realise that the majority is almost invariably wrong.

Why?

Because the majority prefer to be led rather than make their own decisions.

That applies to both Atheists and the majority of theists I'm afraid. You only have to watch the American Presidential Campaigns to see the truth of that.

Well, the majority elected Obama, didn't they?

True, but were they right or wrong?

After all, in the eyes of both Christ and his father they were wrong to vote at all, whichever way they voted.

Nobody is "wrong" simply for casting his or her vote.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/24/2016 6:12:06 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The sheeple follows the government and when the government is pushing something other than Christianity, that's where the sheeple go.

If we're talking real Christianity, most people in the USA are no longer Christian. There's no such thing as a Christian Zionist, so those who support Israel, a state that officially rejects Christ, are not Christian.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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5/24/2016 7:15:33 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
Interesting link here:

http://www.theguardian.com...

Extract:

The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

And the bigger the secularism, the worse mess European nations are in. Sweden is nearly 85% secular. So what happened? They booted Christ out, and God let something far worse come in, lifting the veil of protection. Now it's starting to creep into the UK. It's raped Sweden, Norway, and Germany to death. It has become London's mayor...And if they do not draw back to the Lord, they will be destroyed by it.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/24/2016 7:37:17 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 5:06:46 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 4:56:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 4:48:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 11:11:34 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 10:56:21 AM, Daedal wrote:
Your second point is certainly valid. I think many people are ticking the christian box out of habit.

Yes, the sad thing is that Christ will count them as unbelievers, because they have neither been taught, nor learned to worship the right ones in the right way John 4:23-24; Matthew 7:21-23.

However, as to my first point, you only have to look back through history, as far as you like, to realise that the majority is almost invariably wrong.

Why?

Because the majority prefer to be led rather than make their own decisions.

That applies to both Atheists and the majority of theists I'm afraid. You only have to watch the American Presidential Campaigns to see the truth of that.

Well, the majority elected Obama, didn't they?

True, but were they right or wrong?

After all, in the eyes of both Christ and his father they were wrong to vote at all, whichever way they voted.

Nobody is "wrong" simply for casting his or her vote.

In the eyes of Jehovah and Christ they are because they are showing support for rival governments which have no real right to be ruling any more, since the end of the Times of the Gentiles.

As always your ignorance of scripture lets you down,.

Jehovah's Kingdom under Christ is as real a government as ever it was.

Israel rejected Jehovah as King over them and suffered the results of that rejection.

All who support even by voting for, human governments are echoing the words of those Israelites who sad we don't want Jehovah as King, we want a human king like everyone else.

Jehovah's witnesses do not do that, the only King we want is Jehovah, so we accept his appointed King over us until Jehovah an once again take is rightful place. They are, as Abraham was, Aliens in lands not our own.

Yes we still obey their laws where they do not contravene Jehovah's.

Yes we pay our dues, we give Caesar's things to Caesar, but most of all we give God's things to God, through his son.

We give him our total allegiance above all else.

You do not, you only play at it and expect that to be acceptable.

Try reading the account of Israel rejecting Jehovah, as shown at:

1 Samuel 8:4-22
4 In time all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him: "Look! You have grown old, but your sons are not walking in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the other nations." 6 But it displeased Samuel when they said: "Give us a king to judge us." Then Samuel prayed to Jehovah, 7 and Jehovah said to Samuel: "Listen to everything the people say to you; for it is not you whom they have rejected, but it is I whom they have rejected as their king. 8 They are doing just as they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day; they keep forsaking me and serving other gods, and that is what they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them. However, you should solemnly warn them; tell them what the king who rules over them will have the right to demand."
10 So Samuel told the people who were asking him for a king all the words of Jehovah. 11 He said: "This is what the king who rules over you will have the right to demand: He will take your sons and put them in his chariots and make them his horsemen, and some will have to run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint for himself chiefs over thousands and chiefs over fifties, and some will do his plowing, reap his harvest, and make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be ointment mixers, cooks, and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and he will give them to his servants. 15 He will take the tenth of your grainfields and your vineyards, and he will give it to his court officials and his servants. 16 And he will take your male and female servants, your best herds, and your donkeys, and he will use them for his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you will become his servants. 18 The day will come when you will cry out because of the king you have chosen for yourselves, but Jehovah will not answer you in that day."
19 However, the people refused to listen to what Samuel told them, and they said: "No, we are determined to have a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, and our king will judge us and lead us and fight our battles." 21 After Samuel heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the hearing of Jehovah. 22 Jehovah said to Samuel: "Listen to them, and appoint a king to reign over them." Samuel then said to the men of Israel: "Each of you should return to his city."

Do you want to suffer the same fate as Israel and be abandoned by Jehovah because you don't think his Kingdom is good enough for you to rely on? or even believe it is real?

No Anna, Jehovah's Kingdom is not just something in your heart, it is a real government.

Yes Jesus said the "kingdom is in your midst" but he could not have meant in the hearts of those he was speaking to, who he knew were soon to have him murdered, unjustly executed for something he had never done.

That being the case why would we care what human government is currently being allowed to care for human needs on sufferance until Daniel 2:44 is fulfilled and all human "kings" removed.

That is why we vote every day with out hearts, our feet, our very lives if need be. Jehovah's Kingdom under Christ rules our hearts, but not just in our hearts, in our entire lives.

Why would we support one of Satan's governments?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/24/2016 7:50:44 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 7:15:33 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

if they do not draw back to the Lord, they will be destroyed by it.
When precisely, Bronto? And what will that reveal about your faith if they're not destroyed?

Or if you can't say when, then how are you competent to make such a vague yet malignant pronouncement?
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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5/24/2016 7:54:14 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 7:50:44 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/24/2016 7:15:33 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

if they do not draw back to the Lord, they will be destroyed by it.
When precisely, Bronto? And what will that reveal about your faith if they're not destroyed?

Or if you can't say when, then how are you competent to make such a vague yet malignant pronouncement?

There is no prediction. It's already happened. The West turned it's back on God. Now it wonders why the world is going to hell...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/24/2016 7:57:38 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 7:54:14 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/24/2016 7:50:44 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/24/2016 7:15:33 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

if they do not draw back to the Lord, they will be destroyed by it.
When precisely, Bronto? And what will that reveal about your faith if they're not destroyed?

Or if you can't say when, then how are you competent to make such a vague yet malignant pronouncement?

There is no prediction. It's already happened.
Bronto, while unhelpful, your answer was nevertheless illuminating. In your posts I often see a member who hates much of the world, yet craves attention from those he hates. But it's a rare post that reveals just how confused you are too.

This post did. It's changing the way I think of you.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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5/24/2016 8:08:22 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 7:37:17 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 5:06:46 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 4:56:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 4:48:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 11:11:34 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 10:56:21 AM, Daedal wrote:
Your second point is certainly valid. I think many people are ticking the christian box out of habit.

Yes, the sad thing is that Christ will count them as unbelievers, because they have neither been taught, nor learned to worship the right ones in the right way John 4:23-24; Matthew 7:21-23.

However, as to my first point, you only have to look back through history, as far as you like, to realise that the majority is almost invariably wrong.

Why?

Because the majority prefer to be led rather than make their own decisions.

That applies to both Atheists and the majority of theists I'm afraid. You only have to watch the American Presidential Campaigns to see the truth of that.

Well, the majority elected Obama, didn't they?

True, but were they right or wrong?

After all, in the eyes of both Christ and his father they were wrong to vote at all, whichever way they voted.

Nobody is "wrong" simply for casting his or her vote.

In the eyes of Jehovah and Christ they are because they are showing support for rival governments which have no real right to be ruling any more, since the end of the Times of the Gentiles.

As always your ignorance of scripture lets you down,.

Jehovah's Kingdom under Christ is as real a government as ever it was.

Israel rejected Jehovah as King over them and suffered the results of that rejection.

All who support even by voting for, human governments are echoing the words of those Israelites who sad we don't want Jehovah as King, we want a human king like everyone else.

Jehovah's witnesses do not do that, the only King we want is Jehovah, so we accept his appointed King over us until Jehovah an once again take is rightful place. They are, as Abraham was, Aliens in lands not our own.

Yes we still obey their laws where they do not contravene Jehovah's.

... and voting somehow "contravenes Jehovah's law", eh?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/24/2016 8:29:08 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 8:08:22 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 7:37:17 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 5:06:46 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 4:56:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 4:48:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 11:11:34 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 10:56:21 AM, Daedal wrote:
Your second point is certainly valid. I think many people are ticking the christian box out of habit.

Yes, the sad thing is that Christ will count them as unbelievers, because they have neither been taught, nor learned to worship the right ones in the right way John 4:23-24; Matthew 7:21-23.

However, as to my first point, you only have to look back through history, as far as you like, to realise that the majority is almost invariably wrong.

Why?

Because the majority prefer to be led rather than make their own decisions.

That applies to both Atheists and the majority of theists I'm afraid. You only have to watch the American Presidential Campaigns to see the truth of that.

Well, the majority elected Obama, didn't they?

True, but were they right or wrong?

After all, in the eyes of both Christ and his father they were wrong to vote at all, whichever way they voted.

Nobody is "wrong" simply for casting his or her vote.

In the eyes of Jehovah and Christ they are because they are showing support for rival governments which have no real right to be ruling any more, since the end of the Times of the Gentiles.

As always your ignorance of scripture lets you down,.

Jehovah's Kingdom under Christ is as real a government as ever it was.

Israel rejected Jehovah as King over them and suffered the results of that rejection.

All who support even by voting for, human governments are echoing the words of those Israelites who sad we don't want Jehovah as King, we want a human king like everyone else.

Jehovah's witnesses do not do that, the only King we want is Jehovah, so we accept his appointed King over us until Jehovah an once again take is rightful place. They are, as Abraham was, Aliens in lands not our own.

Yes we still obey their laws where they do not contravene Jehovah's.

... and voting somehow "contravenes Jehovah's law", eh?

Not somehow, it completely contravenes it because by voting you are involving yourself with his enemies, and not with his Kingdom under his son the Christ.

If you supported the government of a nation at enmity with the USA yu wold be called a traitor.

By supporting Governements under teh control of Jehovah's enemy Satan you are being a traitor to his appointed King, Christ.

Simple as.

You cannot support two governments.

You cannot serve two masters.

Either you serve human Governments or you serve Jehovah's government under his appointed King, Christ.

You cannot do both without being a traitor to the one.

That is why JWs do not vote, and is why early Christians did not support the governments of the lands they lived in.

If we are subjects of Christ in his Kingdom we cannot be subjects of any other government.

We are, as I said, like Abraham, alien residents in lands not our own.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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5/24/2016 8:36:18 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 8:29:08 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 8:08:22 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 7:37:17 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 5:06:46 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 4:56:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 4:48:47 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 11:11:34 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 10:56:21 AM, Daedal wrote:
Your second point is certainly valid. I think many people are ticking the christian box out of habit.

Yes, the sad thing is that Christ will count them as unbelievers, because they have neither been taught, nor learned to worship the right ones in the right way John 4:23-24; Matthew 7:21-23.

However, as to my first point, you only have to look back through history, as far as you like, to realise that the majority is almost invariably wrong.

Why?

Because the majority prefer to be led rather than make their own decisions.

That applies to both Atheists and the majority of theists I'm afraid. You only have to watch the American Presidential Campaigns to see the truth of that.

Well, the majority elected Obama, didn't they?

True, but were they right or wrong?

After all, in the eyes of both Christ and his father they were wrong to vote at all, whichever way they voted.

Nobody is "wrong" simply for casting his or her vote.

In the eyes of Jehovah and Christ they are because they are showing support for rival governments which have no real right to be ruling any more, since the end of the Times of the Gentiles.

As always your ignorance of scripture lets you down,.

Jehovah's Kingdom under Christ is as real a government as ever it was.

Israel rejected Jehovah as King over them and suffered the results of that rejection.

All who support even by voting for, human governments are echoing the words of those Israelites who sad we don't want Jehovah as King, we want a human king like everyone else.

Jehovah's witnesses do not do that, the only King we want is Jehovah, so we accept his appointed King over us until Jehovah an once again take is rightful place. They are, as Abraham was, Aliens in lands not our own.

Yes we still obey their laws where they do not contravene Jehovah's.

... and voting somehow "contravenes Jehovah's law", eh?

Not somehow, it completely contravenes it because by voting you are involving yourself with his enemies, and not with his Kingdom under his son the Christ.

If you supported the government of a nation at enmity with the USA yu wold be called a traitor.

By supporting Governements under teh control of Jehovah's enemy Satan you are being a traitor to his appointed King, Christ.

Simple as.

You cannot support two governments.

You cannot serve two masters.

Either you serve human Governments or you serve Jehovah's government under his appointed King, Christ.

You cannot do both without being a traitor to the one.

That is why JWs do not vote, and is why early Christians did not support the governments of the lands they lived in.

If we are subjects of Christ in his Kingdom we cannot be subjects of any other government.

We are, as I said, like Abraham, alien residents in lands not our own.

It's no different than paying taxes and the like. The only difference is that governments put you in jail for not paying taxes. Both activities support a worldly government, however.

To see that there is no difference, why don't you tell us what you would do if the government mandated that you HAD to vote, with penalty of imprisonment if you didn't?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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5/25/2016 3:25:22 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 7:15:33 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
Interesting link here:

http://www.theguardian.com...

Extract:

The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

And the bigger the secularism, the worse mess European nations are in. Sweden is nearly 85% secular. So what happened? They booted Christ out, and God let something far worse come in, lifting the veil of protection. Now it's starting to creep into the UK. It's raped Sweden, Norway, and Germany to death. It has become London's mayor...And if they do not draw back to the Lord, they will be destroyed by it.

You know that your lies about Sweden and other European countries just emphasizes you gross ignorance and dishonesty.
Are you really as stupid as you present here?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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5/25/2016 4:58:30 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 6:12:06 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The sheeple follows the government and when the government is pushing something other than Christianity, that's where the sheeple go.

If we're talking real Christianity, most people in the USA are no longer Christian. There's no such thing as a Christian Zionist, so those who support Israel, a state that officially rejects Christ, are not Christian.

https://xkcd.com...
Meh!
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/25/2016 5:14:32 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

Daedal, I realise we have two threads on this, but thank you for posting.

What do you make of this (underlining mine)?

A spokesperson for the Church of England said: "The increase in those identifying as "no faith" reflects a growing plurality in society rather than any increase in secularism or humanism. We do not have an increasingly secular society as much as a more agnostic one."

What would a 'more secular' society mean? How would it be recognised if not by irreligion alone? Do you believe the spokesperson had independent supporting data to draw on, or is this denial or wishful thinking -- the hope that with sufficient church promotion, the 'agnostics' would return?

Do you believe there's anything churches could do to reverse this trend? If so, what and how would it motivate people? If not, why not?

Do you believe there is likely to be any significant societal change in the UK arising from less religion among the descendants of people who were previously Anglican or Roman Catholic? if so, what and why?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/25/2016 8:41:36 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 8:36:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/24/2016 8:29:08 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


We are, as I said, like Abraham, alien residents in lands not our own.

It's no different than paying taxes and the like. The only difference is that governments put you in jail for not paying taxes. Both activities support a worldly government, however.

Of course it is different.

You pay taxes for the benefits you get from the government, whatever they may be. You pay Caesar what is due to him.

Your support and "interference" with the running of the administration, both of which cover voting, is not a "due".

Followers of Christ are commanded to be no part of this world.

If you moved to the UK would you then voter in UK elections, giving your allegiance to the UK government?

Or would you still give your allegiance to the US Government?

I think we all know the answer, you would continue to vote in US elections and give your allegiance to the US government.

It is exactly the same for us, and for all JWs.

Just as you would be an American living in a foreign land. So are all who have given their allegiance to Jehovah's Kingdom under his son the Christ foreigners living in other governments lands, wherever we live.

That is why the JWs teach that there are no American Witnesses, no UK Witnesses etc. We are no part of those governments, our allegiance is to Jehovah's Kingdom under his son the Christ.

We pay taxes for the services Caesar provides. Simple as, but as Paul said, we make use of the world, but not to the full.

The above are exactly the reasons that the brothers in America were falsely charged with Sedition before WWII, just as their King was falsely charged with the same and executed for it.


To see that there is no difference, why don't you tell us what you would do if the government mandated that you HAD to vote, with penalty of imprisonment if you didn't?

I still would not vote, as Peter says, I have to obey God rather than men.

Any law enacted by any government which goes against Jehovah's laws has to be ignored, as respectfully as possible, but ignored none the less.

That is because our primary allegiance is and will always be to God and Christ.

It was, and would be precisely the same if any Government tried to conscript the brothers and sisters for any form of war work. which is one reason so many JWs were incarcerated in Nazi Concentration camps.

If Christ could suffer for being no part of this world, why should I expect to get away with less?

As he said in prayer to his father:

NWT Reference Bible Joh 17:14
14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

King James Version Joh 17:14
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

American Standard Version Joh 17:14
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Byington Joh 17:14
14 I have given them your word, and the world hated them because they do not belong to the world just as I do not.

How can we who imitate him expect better treatment? we are not better than our King are we? of course we are not.
Daedal
Posts: 157
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5/25/2016 9:50:16 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 5:14:32 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

Daedal, I realise we have two threads on this, but thank you for posting.

What do you make of this (underlining mine)?

A spokesperson for the Church of England said: "The increase in those identifying as "no faith" reflects a growing plurality in society rather than any increase in secularism or humanism. We do not have an increasingly secular society as much as a more agnostic one."

What would a 'more secular' society mean? How would it be recognised if not by irreligion alone? Do you believe the spokesperson had independent supporting data to draw on, or is this denial or wishful thinking -- the hope that with sufficient church promotion, the 'agnostics' would return?

Do you believe there's anything churches could do to reverse this trend? If so, what and how would it motivate people? If not, why not?

Do you believe there is likely to be any significant societal change in the UK arising from less religion among the descendants of people who were previously Anglican or Roman Catholic? if so, what and why?

Yes, I realised that, and yours preceded mine so you have seniority!

I think they are hoping for the agnostics..... it's their best hope, really.

I think the trend to non-belief is an ongoing one. The church is seen as increasingly irrelevant and there's nothing it can about that. Their stance towards gay people, who are accepted by most people as entitled to equal rights, is one major issue, while the RCC has major issues with gays, abortion rights and contraception.

Society is becoming increasingly inclusive - just try going on most UK forums and post something racist/homophobic/ insulting of any minority and see the reaction you get....
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/25/2016 10:00:13 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 9:50:16 AM, Daedal wrote:
At 5/25/2016 5:14:32 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

Daedal, I realise we have two threads on this, but thank you for posting.

What do you make of this (underlining mine)?

A spokesperson for the Church of England said: "The increase in those identifying as "no faith" reflects a growing plurality in society rather than any increase in secularism or humanism. We do not have an increasingly secular society as much as a more agnostic one."

What would a 'more secular' society mean? How would it be recognised if not by irreligion alone? Do you believe the spokesperson had independent supporting data to draw on, or is this denial or wishful thinking -- the hope that with sufficient church promotion, the 'agnostics' would return?

Do you believe there's anything churches could do to reverse this trend? If so, what and how would it motivate people? If not, why not?

Do you believe there is likely to be any significant societal change in the UK arising from less religion among the descendants of people who were previously Anglican or Roman Catholic? if so, what and why?

Yes, I realised that, and yours preceded mine so you have seniority!
The other thread is not mine, but our colleague Desmac's. He has similar views to yours, and I've asked him some similar questions. If the answers are interesting enough, perhaps we might merge to a common thread.

I think they are hoping for the agnostics..... it's their best hope, really.
Yes, to me that seems the rosiest complexion to put on things. That doesn't make it false, but does make it suspect: how do they measure it?

I think the trend to non-belief is an ongoing one.
Yes, also for Scandanavia and much of Western Europe. Church commercial models require clergy to track adherents, and clergy have been aware of the trend for a generation, and were talking about a 'post Christian Europe' almost a decade ago.

The church is seen as increasingly irrelevant and there's nothing it can about that.
What is more relevant now, and how has it become so?

Their stance towards gay people, who are accepted by most people as entitled to equal rights, is one major issue, while the RCC has major issues with gays, abortion rights and contraception.
If churches could become more tolerant and progressive, would that halt the slide?

Society is becoming increasingly inclusive - just try going on most UK forums and post something racist/homophobic/ insulting of any minority and see the reaction you get....
Yes, and it seems to have arisen more from secular than sectarian efforts. So is that too evidence that society has gotten more secular rather than more agnostic?

Do you envision any other changes, or are more tolerance and pluralism the extent of it?

Since churches can no longer preserve social cohesion and a sense of multigenerational belonging as once they did, is there any gap to fill, and are there any secular measures that need to be taken?
tarantula
Posts: 858
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5/25/2016 10:18:06 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/24/2016 10:44:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
Interesting link here:

http://www.theguardian.com...

Extract:

The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

Just because there are more of them doesn't make them right.

In fact the majority of those who choose to call themselves Christian don't even know what doing so really demands of them.

Hopefully your evil cult will die out before long, it has done so much damage over the years.
Daedal
Posts: 157
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5/25/2016 12:36:29 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 10:00:13 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/25/2016 9:50:16 AM, Daedal wrote:
At 5/25/2016 5:14:32 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

Daedal, I realise we have two threads on this, but thank you for posting.

What do you make of this (underlining mine)?

A spokesperson for the Church of England said: "The increase in those identifying as "no faith" reflects a growing plurality in society rather than any increase in secularism or humanism. We do not have an increasingly secular society as much as a more agnostic one."

What would a 'more secular' society mean? How would it be recognised if not by irreligion alone? Do you believe the spokesperson had independent supporting data to draw on, or is this denial or wishful thinking -- the hope that with sufficient church promotion, the 'agnostics' would return?

Do you believe there's anything churches could do to reverse this trend? If so, what and how would it motivate people? If not, why not?

Do you believe there is likely to be any significant societal change in the UK arising from less religion among the descendants of people who were previously Anglican or Roman Catholic? if so, what and why?

Yes, I realised that, and yours preceded mine so you have seniority!
The other thread is not mine, but our colleague Desmac's. He has similar views to yours, and I've asked him some similar questions. If the answers are interesting enough, perhaps we might merge to a common thread.

I think they are hoping for the agnostics..... it's their best hope, really.
Yes, to me that seems the rosiest complexion to put on things. That doesn't make it false, but does make it suspect: how do they measure it?

I think the trend to non-belief is an ongoing one.
Yes, also for Scandanavia and much of Western Europe. Church commercial models require clergy to track adherents, and clergy have been aware of the trend for a generation, and were talking about a 'post Christian Europe' almost a decade ago.

The church is seen as increasingly irrelevant and there's nothing it can about that.
What is more relevant now, and how has it become so?

Their stance towards gay people, who are accepted by most people as entitled to equal rights, is one major issue, while the RCC has major issues with gays, abortion rights and contraception.
If churches could become more tolerant and progressive, would that halt the slide?

Society is becoming increasingly inclusive - just try going on most UK forums and post something racist/homophobic/ insulting of any minority and see the reaction you get....
Yes, and it seems to have arisen more from secular than sectarian efforts. So is that too evidence that society has gotten more secular rather than more agnostic?

Do you envision any other changes, or are more tolerance and pluralism the extent of it?

Since churches can no longer preserve social cohesion and a sense of multigenerational belonging as once they did, is there any gap to fill, and are there any secular measures that need to be taken?

By all means merge the two threads.

As for the rest of your questions, I'm probably not the best person to comment.

As far as the churches go, if they fail to change their teachings they will become out of phase with the people, especially the younger ones, but if they change too much they will lose the older congregation. The CoE is facing that now. As far as I'm concerned, if they all go out of business tomorrow I won't shed a single tear.

One of the reasons why the US is still so religious compared to W Europe may have to do with the society, which is more highly stressed and insecure; in those circumstances people take comfort in their gods. Maybe there are other factors? Let's hear from some Americans.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/25/2016 12:36:32 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 10:18:06 AM, tarantula wrote:
At 5/24/2016 10:44:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
Interesting link here:

http://www.theguardian.com...

Extract:

The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

Just because there are more of them doesn't make them right.

In fact the majority of those who choose to call themselves Christian don't even know what doing so really demands of them.

Hopefully your evil cult will die out before long, it has done so much damage over the years.

It has only done damage to Satan's cause.
tarantula
Posts: 858
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5/25/2016 12:52:08 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 12:36:32 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/25/2016 10:18:06 AM, tarantula wrote:
At 5/24/2016 10:44:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
Interesting link here:

http://www.theguardian.com...

Extract:

The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

Just because there are more of them doesn't make them right.

In fact the majority of those who choose to call themselves Christian don't even know what doing so really demands of them.

Hopefully your evil cult will die out before long, it has done so much damage over the years.

It has only done damage to Satan's cause.

GARBAGE, it is an evil cult which has killed people by denying them blood transfusions!
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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5/25/2016 1:08:50 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 3:25:22 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 5/24/2016 7:15:33 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
Interesting link here:

http://www.theguardian.com...

Extract:

The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

And the bigger the secularism, the worse mess European nations are in. Sweden is nearly 85% secular. So what happened? They booted Christ out, and God let something far worse come in, lifting the veil of protection. Now it's starting to creep into the UK. It's raped Sweden, Norway, and Germany to death. It has become London's mayor...And if they do not draw back to the Lord, they will be destroyed by it.

You know that your lies about Sweden and other European countries just emphasizes you gross ignorance and dishonesty.
Are you really as stupid as you present here?

Well, let's actually look at it, which you won't, but I will and others will.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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5/25/2016 1:09:14 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Well, let us look at things that are facts. Not possible semantics, facts.

FACT: London's new mayor, is a Muslim.

FACT:
-During the 2016 New Year's Eve celebrations, hundreds of sexual assaults (including groping), numerous thefts, and at least five rapes were reported in Germany, mainly in Cologne city centre. Similar incidents were reported in Hamburg, Frankfurt, Dortmund, D"sseldorf, Stuttgart, and Bielefeld. All of the incidents involved women being surrounded and assaulted by groups of men on the street. There are more than 1,900 victims and it is reported that up to 1,000 men may have been involved in Cologne, acting in groups of several dozen. Police reported that the perpetrators were men of "Arab or North African appearance" and said that Germany had never experienced such mass sexual assaults before.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

*

So here is what we know bull. You deny London's mayor is a Muslim. You deny that Islamic men are causing any such rape and assault problem. Both untrue and easily proven untrue. One more thing. You say there is no God. You're most certainly 0 for 2. By statistical probability we can assume you are wrong on the 3rd as well.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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5/25/2016 1:33:21 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 1:09:14 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Well, let us look at things that are facts. Not possible semantics, facts.

FACT: London's new mayor, is a Muslim.

FACT:
-During the 2016 New Year's Eve celebrations, hundreds of sexual assaults (including groping), numerous thefts, and at least five rapes were reported in Germany, mainly in Cologne city centre. Similar incidents were reported in Hamburg, Frankfurt, Dortmund, D"sseldorf, Stuttgart, and Bielefeld. All of the incidents involved women being surrounded and assaulted by groups of men on the street. There are more than 1,900 victims and it is reported that up to 1,000 men may have been involved in Cologne, acting in groups of several dozen. Police reported that the perpetrators were men of "Arab or North African appearance" and said that Germany had never experienced such mass sexual assaults before.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

*

So here is what we know bull. You deny London's mayor is a Muslim. You deny that Islamic men are causing any such rape and assault problem. Both untrue and easily proven untrue. One more thing. You say there is no God. You're most certainly 0 for 2. By statistical probability we can assume you are wrong on the 3rd as well.

Saddiq Khan , the democratically elected Mayor of London is A proud Muslim. Neither he nor anyone around him has ever denied it.
As to what has allegedly happened in Germany, it is probably best to wait until the German police, prosecutors and courts have finished their work before passing comment.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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5/25/2016 1:56:14 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 12:52:08 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 5/25/2016 12:36:32 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/25/2016 10:18:06 AM, tarantula wrote:
At 5/24/2016 10:44:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/24/2016 9:38:31 AM, Daedal wrote:
Interesting link here:

http://www.theguardian.com...

Extract:

The number of people who say they have no religion is rapidly escalating and significantly outweighs the Christian population in England and Wales, according to new analysis.

The proportion of the population who identify as having no religion " referred to as "nones" " reached 48.5% in 2014, almost double the figure of 25% in the 2011 census. Those who define themselves as Christian " Anglicans, Catholics and other denominations " made up 43.8% of the population.

Just because there are more of them doesn't make them right.

In fact the majority of those who choose to call themselves Christian don't even know what doing so really demands of them.

Hopefully your evil cult will die out before long, it has done so much damage over the years.

It has only done damage to Satan's cause.

GARBAGE, it is an evil cult which has killed people by denying them blood transfusions!

Sorry but it is you who spouts the garbage. They died because the hospital refused to give them an alternative treatment. Yet no-one criticises the hospitals for their wilful negligence.