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Religion Aside, Do You Have Faith?

Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

What is your position do you have faith and if so why?
Chaosism
Posts: 2,649
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5/27/2016 4:40:49 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

What is your position do you have faith and if so why?

Define faith; it has more than one meaning which is what stems the equivocal usages.

Oxford definition of "faith":
1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

The Biblical notion of faith does not appear to support the common usage of the word, in which we express trust in another person or thing, for example.

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." - Hebrews 1:11

One could say that I "have faith" that my car's brake pedal will work when I rely on it, but this is based on past experiences of its reliance, efforts in maintenance, and demonstrable reliability, which serves as supporting evidence for the possibility that it will continue to function properly in the future. Although I do have confidence and trust in this, I wouldn't attribute the religious notion of "faith" to this because it is something I have seen.

At the end of the day, this is just a semantical issue, because the "faith" that I have in my brake pedal (by the strictest reading of the definition above) isn't comparable to "faith" in the truth of a religion without demonstrable evidence.
MagicAintReal
Posts: 590
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5/27/2016 5:11:48 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

What is your position do you have faith and if so why?

Look.
Faith is indistinguishable from gullibility.
In fact, for many, the idea that there is no evidence EMBOLDENS their faith...

Belief without evidence is gullible, faithful, and should not be considered a virtue.
Peepette
Posts: 1,236
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5/27/2016 5:21:05 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I have belief that there's an omnipotent being that created all, but no faith in the dogma of organized religion.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,083
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5/27/2016 5:36:48 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

What is your position do you have faith and if so why?

This might be an equivocation of the word "faith". It can mean 'trust' or something along the lines of "acceptance of things unseen". Obviously, trust can be earned by experience and observation, but faith, as theists typically mean it, is intuitive.

It is possible, very probable, we do both. I suppose we would really need to know what the 'things' were before we could determine if "faith" is being incorrectly used.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

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What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
PureX
Posts: 1,515
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5/27/2016 5:43:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

What is your position do you have faith and if so why?

You have faith that the 'evidence' you've garnered has given you sufficient knowledge of portability to act on it.

"Faith" is basically just trust in action. We all live by faith. It's what we place that faith in that varies.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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5/27/2016 5:50:58 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

What is your position do you have faith and if so why?

I have faith China exists even though I have never been there. I do not think China's existence is a worldwide conspiracy to deceive me.

I agree with your statement and reasoning. I believe the evidence shows that the probability is high that China exists. There are no unanswered questions as to the veracity of that claim. I have actually met Chinese people, I have actually heard the Chinese language, etc.

The arguments for religion are too shaky to consider probable.

Historical evidence - There is no evidence that the supernatural claims are true. Accurate claims about cities or cultures that actually existed are not surprising since they were around when the nuts wrote the stories in the first place.

The bible claims God wrote it so it must be true - circular reasoning

The universe cant create itself - that is at best an argument for Deism and does nothing to argue for a religion.

Predictions - They are never specific. Besides, every religion claims accurate predictions but they all say they are the only true one.

Etc, etc.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/27/2016 6:27:26 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 5:21:05 PM, Peepette wrote:
I have belief that there's an omnipotent being that created all, but no faith in the dogma of organized religion.

How did you come up with the notion that there is an omnipotent being that created all?
janesix
Posts: 3,437
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5/27/2016 9:15:28 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

What is your position do you have faith and if so why?

Do you have faith in your ability to make sound judgements? Do you have faith in your senses? Do you have faith that you have free will?
Peepette
Posts: 1,236
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5/28/2016 2:05:45 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 6:27:26 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/27/2016 5:21:05 PM, Peepette wrote:
I have belief that there's an omnipotent being that created all, but no faith in the dogma of organized religion.

How did you come up with the notion that there is an omnipotent being that created all?

Everything had to come from somewhere, a beginning. It is not logical to assume the cosmos and everything in it was always there. There had to be at least an initiating spark that brought it all into being; an omnipotence.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,899
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5/28/2016 2:22:02 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Do you have faith in your ability to make sound judgements? Do you have faith in your senses? Do you have faith that you have free will?

1)Not much. 2) Even less. 3)Almost none at all.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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5/28/2016 2:22:38 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

What is your position do you have faith and if so why?

I think that under a definition of faith coined by Mark Twain ('faith is believing what you know ain't so'), every functional adult has faith. There are things which aren't objectively true, but which people must nevertheless believe in order for society to function. Morality is one; humanism is basically a giant collection of moral tenets, most of them stolen from Christianity, which people support by faith, and often take refuge in the false security of consensus when questioned on it. Cultural norms are another. So is etiquette. Illusion is essential to a healthy human life, and the clear-eyed high ground which atheists often claim is in the vast majority of cases a pretension born of insecurity. When you get right down to it, the truth is cruel. We live in an alien, uncaring, profoundly inhuman universe which frightens us, and people must escape to some sort of fanciful reality, must impose order through illusion, must take the world around us and make it ours. That is the province of faith: to make the unknown understandable and approachable, to project a human understanding onto a bleak, uncaring world, to order a chaotic universe in a way which makes it digestible to the little ball of jelly inside our skulls.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
missmedic
Posts: 385
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5/28/2016 2:30:09 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

What is your position do you have faith and if so why?

If you have knowledge you do not need faith, beliefs and faiths do not establish "truths" or facts. Throughout history, humankind has paid reverence to beliefs and mystical thinking. Organized religion has played the most significant role in the support and propagation of beliefs and faith. This has resulted in an acceptance of beliefs in general. Regardless of how one may reject religion, religious support of supernatural events gives credence to other superstitions in general and the support of faith (belief without evidence), mysticism, and miracles. Most scientists, politicians, philosophers, and even atheists support the notion that some forms of belief provide a valuable means to establish "truth" as long as it contains the backing of data and facts. Belief has long become a socially acceptable form of thinking in science as well as religion. Indeed, once a proposition turns to belief, it automatically undermines opposition to itself. Dostoyevsky warned us that those who reject religion "will end by drenching the earth in blood." But this represents a belief in-itself. Our history has shown that the majority of mass killings (regardless of how they got started), get justified by the religious beliefs of the leaders who started them, not from the rejection of religion.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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5/28/2016 2:31:15 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

That's what faith is: reasonable expectations based upon the evidence
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/28/2016 6:06:48 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/28/2016 2:05:45 AM, Peepette wrote:
At 5/27/2016 6:27:26 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/27/2016 5:21:05 PM, Peepette wrote:
I have belief that there's an omnipotent being that created all, but no faith in the dogma of organized religion.

How did you come up with the notion that there is an omnipotent being that created all?

Everything had to come from somewhere, a beginning. It is not logical to assume the cosmos and everything in it was always there. There had to be at least an initiating spark that brought it all into being; an omnipotence.

Why would it have to be an omnipotence that inisted that spark? Also why is it not logical to believe the universe/cosmos has always existed in some form (yet you have no problem believing in an infinitely omnipotent being).

I'm gonna be honest it seems like this is an argument from ignorance fallacy. Because you dont know and cant fathom how the universe was formed does not mean, you feel the need to propose a God created it all.

Is it not better to say that we don't know, rather than using the God of the gaps fallacy?
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/28/2016 6:10:18 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 9:15:28 PM, janesix wrote:
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

What is your position do you have faith and if so why?

Do you have faith in your ability to make sound judgements? Do you have faith in your senses? Do you have faith that you have free will?

I have reasonable expectations based on evidence that I mostly will make sound judgements, the same with my senses and free will.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/28/2016 6:11:37 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 5:21:05 PM, Peepette wrote:
I have belief that there's an omnipotent being that created all, but no faith in the dogma of organized religion.

Also how did you come up with the notion of omnipitence in General?
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/28/2016 6:18:00 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/28/2016 2:31:15 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

That's what faith is: reasonable expectations based upon the evidence

So people who have faith that Zeus is responsible for thunder have come to that conclusion through reasonable expectations based on evidence?

Faith is, in General, wishful infantile thinking.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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5/28/2016 6:23:52 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/28/2016 6:18:00 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/28/2016 2:31:15 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

That's what faith is: reasonable expectations based upon the evidence

So people who have faith that Zeus is responsible for thunder have come to that conclusion through reasonable expectations based on evidence?

I didn't claim that anyone has faith that Zeus is responsible for thunder. That's a misuse of the word at worst, or at best it's applying one possible usage to the exclusion of others.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Peepette
Posts: 1,236
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5/28/2016 6:37:03 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/28/2016 6:18:00 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/28/2016 2:31:15 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

That's what faith is: reasonable expectations based upon the evidence

So people who have faith that Zeus is responsible for thunder have come to that conclusion through reasonable expectations based on evidence?

Faith is, in General, wishful infantile thinking.

Oh that's leaping to an unfounded conclusion since the Greeks and Romans has many mythic gods attributing to many aspects of nature and man. That's certainly not where I'm coming from. I agree, there is no evidence to prove any god exist. Though rational thinking concludes that stuff does not come out of nowhere, everything has to have a beginning, even the gases in the cosmos had to come from somewhere or from something. Stating that things were always in existence, infinite, does not make sense. An onminpotent being responsible is a logical conclution.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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5/28/2016 6:53:30 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/28/2016 6:37:03 PM, Peepette wrote:
At 5/28/2016 6:18:00 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/28/2016 2:31:15 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.

That's what faith is: reasonable expectations based upon the evidence

So people who have faith that Zeus is responsible for thunder have come to that conclusion through reasonable expectations based on evidence?

Faith is, in General, wishful infantile thinking.

Oh that's leaping to an unfounded conclusion since the Greeks and Romans has many mythic gods attributing to many aspects of nature and man. That's certainly not where I'm coming from. I agree, there is no evidence to prove any god exist. Though rational thinking concludes that stuff does not come out of nowhere, everything has to have a beginning, even the gases in the cosmos had to come from somewhere or from something. Stating that things were always in existence, infinite, does not make sense. An onminpotent being responsible is a logical conclution.
+1
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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5/28/2016 7:42:58 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/27/2016 4:21:18 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
I've often been told by theists that I have faith in many things, then I say that I don't have faith I simply have reasonable expectations based on evidence.
What is your position do you have faith and if so why?

Faith is not a term owned by religion; rather it has been co-opted and corrupted by theology. To understand the difference, let's use a less theologically loaded synonym: trust.

Anyone can have trust in the people and world around them; the trust may not always be based on reliable evidence, and can sometimes be misplaced. But that trust is always subject to the right to doubt it. I may doubt the integrity of a friend; the sincerity of my parents; the accuracy of a history; or the value of my country's currency tomorrow. And I'm free to explore, test and evaluate those questions however I like for as long as I wish before re-investing trust.

The kind of faith theology demands includes trust, but it is not trust as reasonable people use it. It's trust where you surrender the right to doubt, test and re-evaluate your own confidence as reasonable people need to do. Instead of treating this demand as the abdication of intellectual and moral responsibility that it is, as the abuse of clerical authority that it is; such surrender is presented as a virtue of piety by the abused.

Thus, the religious definition of faith is a corruption of reasonable usage.