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Why do Christians seek treatment for illness

Chloe8
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6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RuvDraba
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6/2/2016 9:39:00 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death.
Back when Christianity was first codified there were plagues, famines, an infant mortality rate of about one in three, and cruel tyrants ran the world. (For example, in the time attested to Jesus, Caligula ran Rome.) Cruelty and injustice were inevitable; early death was commonplace. A harsh life didn't have to be embraced -- that's what you got by default.

So a popular attraction of Christianity in comparison to polytheistic faiths was the promise of a moral order to a cruel and unjust world. Apparently (according to my readings) working-class Roman housewives especially found Christianity attractive -- perhaps because it offered them more dignity than the alternatives at the time.

But our world has changed. Beginning in the Renaissance, humanistic thought both religious and secular has helped create today's moral order. Our world is kinder to everyone, and more respectful of everyone -- not because religious doctrine has made it so, but because humans had to correct repeated failures in their religious doctrines -- failures that began with injustices between early church bishops, and exploded into genocidal injustices spanning millennia between Christian sects and toward non-Christian peoples.

The secular civilisation of Christianity has benefited everyone, but Christians especially. Christians are now living safer, more peaceful, more respected lives than they ever did in the early days of Graeco-Roman Christianity, or the Mediaeval period that followed.

Of course today's Christians still want heaven -- the promise of a more morally-ordered world than the one they inhabit, which also panders to their intolerances, and in which they see all the privilege. But they also want the kindness, peace, justice, education and wealth that secular thought has brought them. So many Christians seem to tell themselves a sort of story: that the wonders of the world today is the product of early Christianity, and a promise of things to come.

But it's really not. Christian doctrine was never designed for the world we inhabit, and is inadequate to sustain it. Moreover, today's egalitarian moral order is not and cannot be the one promised Christians because it doesn't honour the sense of paternalistic, patriarchal privilege enshrined in Christian canon.

The secular civilisation of Christianity continues apace. Perhaps one day Christianity will finally dismantle its sense of entitled superiority, from which most Christian cruelty and injustice derives.

But meanwhile, yes Chloe: it does look hypocritical for a faith to accept the benefits of secular thought while proclaiming itself the solution to the problems of a world that really, no longer exists.
simplelife
Posts: 134
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6/2/2016 9:58:42 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die. : :

Christians don't understand anything they read in the Bible. Their interpretations lead them away from the Truth instead of understanding what the Truth is. Not one Christian knows how they were created so without this knowledge, they don't know who they are or how it's possible eternal life could be true. When I show them biblical prophecies and support them with knowledge, they reject the knowledge. They would rather listen to their own interpretations which keeps the very confused.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,322
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6/2/2016 10:25:01 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

Wrong, illness is illness, which is pain and suffering, this is no way to live. There is a difference between dying and dying a horrible death, or dying from pain or disease. While leaving this earth to experience new things sounds great, living in pain and misery, dying from a horrible death is not a picnic, it's suffering, who wants to suffer regardless their beliefs?


However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

Wrong, it's not a comfort to believe there is a Creator and Judge that awaits our presence in the after life, actually the atheist mentality is an escape from that, key word escape. What would there be to fear about nothing when we die? on the contrary to be Theistic, it requires much more soul searching and contemplation on just about every choice and aspect of life, sorry but this is just another atheistic falsity and lack of depth in thinking.


http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

What is God's will?


Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

It's not God's will that anyone have sex and create a child at any moment, that's our will and responsibility. However, having a child is the responsibility of having sex, which is the will of God to bring life onto earth. Now wrap your paradigms around that.


So why do you seek medical treatment?

Perhaps to treat an ailment?? which is the hindrance of joy while we are here? to be free of physical pain? seems like a stupid question.

They could also detoxify, change their diet and regenerate damaged cells and restart their bodies... let them have their vibrance/vigor like it was meant to be.


I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

No, because our own actions are not caused by God. Reap and sow, cause and effect, God does not control those things.


Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.


Doesn't prove anything, other than atheists don't believe anything happens after death, therefore nothing to fear lol.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

Who said Christians were scared? I would imagine death is uncomfortable for just about everyone, as it symbolizes the end of our journey here, in which all of our perceptions are birthed. Death IMO is supposed to be an aspect of uncertainty, that's what makes it mysterious and sometimes scary. I don't really know why you single out "christians" on this issue, death is death, it's the same thing for everyone...


I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.

Heaven is irrelevant and something we have zero control over, it's not our choice we inhabit it, it's God's.
Next, as it's already been pointed out living in pain or dying from disease is not fun regardless of beliefs, I would imagine believers receive treatment for the same reasons as another, to relieve pain.
Also, you exempt cause and effect, reaping and sowing as if it were never shown to you, God does not create our habits, therefore is not responsible for the effects.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/2/2016 11:03:00 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 10:25:01 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

Wrong, illness is illness, which is pain and suffering, this is no way to live. There is a difference between dying and dying a horrible death, or dying from pain or disease. While leaving this earth to experience new things sounds great, living in pain and misery, dying from a horrible death is not a picnic, it's suffering, who wants to suffer regardless their beliefs?

Obviously your religion prevents what would appear logical, suicide, end of suffering and ascension to heaven. Why not take the next best thing, lots of painkillers and hope God takes you from this life as soon as possible? Why use aggressive medical techniques prolonging your miserable existence by a few days of weeks?


However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

Wrong, it's not a comfort to believe there is a Creator and Judge that awaits our presence in the after life, actually the atheist mentality is an escape from that, key word escape. What would there be to fear about nothing when we die? on the contrary to be Theistic, it requires much more soul searching and contemplation on just about every choice and aspect of life, sorry but this is just another atheistic falsity and lack of depth in thinking.

I addressed this later in the thread. Are you suggesting most Christians think they are Set to go to hell and this is the reason they fear death? Atheism is a position of not believing there is evidence of any God/s existing. If someone was trying to escape something they thought existed they would not be an atheist.


http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

What is God's will?

If God gave someone appendicitis is it not his will for them to die? Is he not all knowing and all powerful? Is treatment not going against nature (and therefore god)?


Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

It's not God's will that anyone have sex and create a child at any moment, that's our will and responsibility. However, having a child is the responsibility of having sex, which is the will of God to bring life onto earth. Now wrap your paradigms around that.

Yes the Christian God wants people to have sex to reproduce if it exists. However the bible does not prohibit abortion directly so Christians are merely assuming their God's wishes.


So why do you seek medical treatment?

Perhaps to treat an ailment?? which is the hindrance of joy while we are here? to be free of physical pain? seems like a stupid question.

Obviously it's inconvenient for you but if God wanted you to endure an ear infection is it not going against his will to treat it? If he didn't want people to have ear infections then why do they exist? If God didn't want people to feel pain it would not exist.

Christians use the same argument I'm using now when discussing homosexuality. They say that although people may feel a desire to engage in consensual sexual activity with someone of the same gender they should refrain from such actions as they are against God's will. God made man and woman to procreate, he makes some people endure unfortunate things like being homosexual or having ear infections to test their faith. If he exists that's how things are. Medicine is going against nature and therefore god.

They could also detoxify, change their diet and regenerate damaged cells and restart their bodies... let them have their vibrance/vigor like it was meant to be.

But when without medical intervention the person in question would die its going against nature to cure them.


I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

No, because our own actions are not caused by God. Reap and sow, cause and effect, God does not control those things.

Are you saying you are responsible for getting bowel cancer?

If you are not responsible then who is?

If you admit nobody is you acknowledge your god does not exist. It's supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, all knowing and all powerful.


Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.


Doesn't prove anything, other than atheists don't believe anything happens after death, therefore nothing to fear lol.

You would think they would be scared of the prospect of non existence?

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

Who said Christians were scared? I would imagine death is uncomfortable for just about everyone, as it symbolizes the end of our journey here, in which all of our perceptions are birthed. Death IMO is supposed to be an aspect of uncertainty, that's what makes it mysterious and sometimes scary. I don't really know why you single out "christians" on this issue, death is death, it's the same thing for everyone...

Because we agree all other religions are false. It comes down to whether yours is true or not.


I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.

Heaven is irrelevant and something we have zero control over, it's not our choice we inhabit it, it's God's.
Next, as it's already been pointed out living in pain or dying from disease is not fun regardless of beliefs, I would imagine believers receive treatment for the same reasons as another, to relieve pain.
Also, you exempt cause and effect, reaping and sowing as if it were never shown to you, God does not create our habits, therefore is not responsible for the effects.

If God exists he created everything. He
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
rnjs
Posts: 381
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6/3/2016 2:11:14 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.

Christians don't generally fear death, it happens to us all if we live long enough, it's what is referred to as the second death, or eternal separation from God that is the problem. As far as seeking treatment for life threatening disease, how can one value eternal life if one does not value life in general. I'm sure most, believers and non believers alike would like to live to see their children , grandchildren and so on grow up because we cannot know if we will see them after death.
skipsaweirdo
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6/3/2016 5:22:50 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death
Have you m et all Christians silly goose?.
. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.
Or God has decided the cardiologist needs something to do.
However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.
That's because atheists hate their unhappy lives and want it over as quickly as possible.
http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?
No one's perfect. God will forgive me for going against his will,.
Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.
The Bible doesn't have to say life begins at conception for it to be true. Which it is.
So why do you seek medical treatment?
God wants Christians to help doctors make a living.
I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?
You assume Christians are perfect and don't go against Gods will. I think you're projecting your parents treatment of you and you not going against their will.
Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.
Non sequitur

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?
You haven't met all Christians you over compensating fool. Geez you would think by now I've taught thou that being obsessed with other people simply means you are unhappy.
I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.
In my opinion you haven't met enough Christians to determine what they are certain of.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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6/3/2016 7:53:58 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

One's life here is a natural good. There is no evil in attempting to repair that which is not working properly.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

So atheists give up easier.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

No.

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

Do you really want scriptural evidence?

So why do you seek medical treatment?

Huh? So because I believe murder is wrong, I shouldn't fight cancer?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Not at all. There is nothing wrong with repairing something that is no longer acting according to its nature.

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

Or do atheists merely see no point in suffering whereas Christians do? Just "Good time Charlies".

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared?

Judgement. Being Christian does not guarantee entry into heaven.

You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

One can join their suffering to Christ's here on earth in order to better love him in preparation for heaven.

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.

LOL.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/3/2016 9:30:27 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 7:53:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

One's life here is a natural good. There is no evil in attempting to repair that which is not working properly.

If your God is omnipotent and omniscient then why do people get brain tumours if it's not God's will that they get brain tumours and die what is it?

If God creates and ends life surely intervening to prolong life is going against God's wishes?

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

So atheists give up easier.

We accept we are not immortal and know when our times up our times up. We don't see any benefits from suffering in severe pain for a few extra days of a frankly miserable existence.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

No.

On what basis?

Got any scriptural evidence?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

Do you really want scriptural evidence?

Yes.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

Huh? So because I believe murder is wrong, I shouldn't fight cancer?

You believe God is the only being with the right to take and give life. Therefore because you believe abortion is going against the will of god as it takes life away that god intended to continue then by prolonging and therefore giving life to someone who would otherwise die of natural causes you are giving life when according to you only God has that right. If the person who is ill with a brain tumour has the tumour for any reason other than it's God's will then he is not omnipotent and omniscient.

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Not at all. There is nothing wrong with repairing something that is no longer acting according to its nature.

Death is natural as is pain, suffering and disability. Medical treatment goes against nature. God obviously wants people to go through these things or they would not happen.

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

Or do atheists merely see no point in suffering whereas Christians do? Just "Good time Charlies".

We are less scared of death and see no point of a truly miserable existence with no hope of recovery.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared?

Judgement. Being Christian does not guarantee entry into heaven.

I've yet to hear of a funeral held at a church where the vicar says anything other than the person in question is anywhere other than with Jesus and the Lord in heaven. Most Christians seem confident family members are in heaven even if they often completely contradicted Christian teaching through their lives.

You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

One can join their suffering to Christ's here on earth in order to better love him in preparation for heaven.

So Is getting treatment for cancer going against God's wishes as you are avoiding necessary suffering he intended for you to bring you closer to Jesus?

Maybe he intended to give you cancer to test your faith?

To see if you trusted him completely and allowed nature and his plan to take its course?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.

LOL.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/3/2016 9:31:24 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 9:58:42 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die. : :

Christians don't understand anything they read in the Bible. Their interpretations lead them away from the Truth instead of understanding what the Truth is. Not one Christian knows how they were created so without this knowledge, they don't know who they are or how it's possible eternal life could be true. When I show them biblical prophecies and support them with knowledge, they reject the knowledge. They would rather listen to their own interpretations which keeps the very confused.

Does anyone other than you believe in the religion you created?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/3/2016 9:38:17 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 2:11:14 PM, rnjs wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.

Christians don't generally fear death, it happens to us all if we live long enough, it's what is referred to as the second death, or eternal separation from God that is the problem. As far as seeking treatment for life threatening disease, how can one value eternal life if one does not value life in general. I'm sure most, believers and non believers alike would like to live to see their children , grandchildren and so on grow up because we cannot know if we will see them after death.

I agree its instinctive to survive but some people are instinctively homosexual and Christians claim you should suppress any instincts contradicting the will of God.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient and his plan was for you to die from a brain tumour is it not going against nature, God and his plan to seek treatment to cure the brain tumour?

Maybe he gives people illness to test their faith in him and his plan?

Make them endure suffering as Jesus did to prove themselves worthy of heaven?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
simplelife
Posts: 134
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6/3/2016 9:41:49 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 9:31:24 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:58:42 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die. : :

Christians don't understand anything they read in the Bible. Their interpretations lead them away from the Truth instead of understanding what the Truth is. Not one Christian knows how they were created so without this knowledge, they don't know who they are or how it's possible eternal life could be true. When I show them biblical prophecies and support them with knowledge, they reject the knowledge. They would rather listen to their own interpretations which keeps the very confused.

Does anyone other than you believe in the religion you created? : :

All religions, philosophy, science, the written and spoken languages, and false gods built by human hands came from information called the Beast.

I am the only person who knows how religion was formed besides the former saints who were killed off by the time the Roman Emperor Constantine announced that the pagan religion called Christianity was the accepted religion in the Roman Empire. Once they killed off all the saints, Christianity flourished because there wasn't anyone around to point out the false prophets ( popes, bishops, cardinals, etc. ) who made new laws contrary to the Law of God that the saints spoke for our Creator.

Every single Christian, Muslim and Jew have been deceived by what they read in their holy books because the were never used to testify to the words, visions, dreams and spoken analogies that were fed into their minds via the voice of God. Only us saints learn how we're created and a few chosen believers who listen to the gospel ( voice of God ) that we preach to them. Those who were chosen to listen will learn exactly how our Creator spoke his creation into existence by using technology called the voice of God.
Chloe8
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6/3/2016 10:07:28 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 5:22:50 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death
Have you m et all Christians silly goose?.

I've shown evidence showing Christians fear death more than atheists.

. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.
Or God has decided the cardiologist needs something to do.

Any scriptural evidence that God wants humans to have the power to prolong (and therefore give) life?

It seems fairly clear to me the bible suggests anything going against God's plan is wrong. Supposedly only he has the power to give and take life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.
That's because atheists hate their unhappy lives and want it over as quickly as possible.

We just accept we are not immortal, death is inevitable and when life becomes meaningless pain and suffering with no prospects of recovery it is not worth living.
http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?
No one's perfect. God will forgive me for going against his will,.

So you accept medical treatment is going against God's will?

How do you know he will forgive you for going against his will?

Has he told you?

Couldn't I just use the same argument to engage in a homosexual act or have an abortion?

If they are confident God will forgive them for going against his will shouldn't all Christians just accept that although homosexuality and abortions are against God's will it will be fine because God will forgive them?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.
The Bible doesn't have to say life begins at conception for it to be true. Which it is.

The thing is it doesn't actually say when God considers life to begin so you can't be certain he considers it to begin at conception. It's merely an assumption without scriptural evidence.

So why do you seek medical treatment?
God wants Christians to help doctors make a living.

Got any scriptural evidence supporting your claim?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?
You assume Christians are perfect and don't go against Gods will. I think you're projecting your parents treatment of you and you not going against their will.

Nearly all Christians receive medical treatment if it's available. Even clergy such as the pope and archbishops. All Christians seem to think receiving medical treatment is perfectly fine because they know they will likely need it at some point but are happy to condemn people for things like abortions and homosexuality because they know it does not effect them personally. Most Christians have not even contemplated receiving medical treatment may be going against the will of their creator.

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.
Non sequitur

How? If I'm an atheist because I fear God wouldn't I be extremely fearful of death and the eternal torment of unimaginable proportions I would be set to endure?

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?
You haven't met all Christians you over compensating fool. Geez you would think by now I've taught thou that being obsessed with other people simply means you are unhappy.

Non sequitur.

I've shown evidence Christians fear death on average considerably more than atheists.

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.
In my opinion you haven't met enough Christians to determine what they are certain of.

I've met a lot of Christians. Around 43% of people in my country are Christians.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/3/2016 10:11:25 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 9:41:49 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/3/2016 9:31:24 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:58:42 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die. : :

Christians don't understand anything they read in the Bible. Their interpretations lead them away from the Truth instead of understanding what the Truth is. Not one Christian knows how they were created so without this knowledge, they don't know who they are or how it's possible eternal life could be true. When I show them biblical prophecies and support them with knowledge, they reject the knowledge. They would rather listen to their own interpretations which keeps the very confused.

Does anyone other than you believe in the religion you created? : :

All religions, philosophy, science, the written and spoken languages, and false gods built by human hands came from information called the Beast.

I am the only person who knows how religion was formed besides the former saints who were killed off by the time the Roman Emperor Constantine announced that the pagan religion called Christianity was the accepted religion in the Roman Empire. Once they killed off all the saints, Christianity flourished because there wasn't anyone around to point out the false prophets ( popes, bishops, cardinals, etc. ) who made new laws contrary to the Law of God that the saints spoke for our Creator.

Every single Christian, Muslim and Jew have been deceived by what they read in their holy books because the were never used to testify to the words, visions, dreams and spoken analogies that were fed into their minds via the voice of God. Only us saints learn how we're created and a few chosen believers who listen to the gospel ( voice of God ) that we preach to them. Those who were chosen to listen will learn exactly how our Creator spoke his creation into existence by using technology called the voice of God.

Your religion has one adherent. Yourself. That says everything we need to know about its credibility. What have you called the false religion you created?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
simplelife
Posts: 134
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6/3/2016 10:15:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 10:11:25 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 9:41:49 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/3/2016 9:31:24 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:58:42 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die. : :

Christians don't understand anything they read in the Bible. Their interpretations lead them away from the Truth instead of understanding what the Truth is. Not one Christian knows how they were created so without this knowledge, they don't know who they are or how it's possible eternal life could be true. When I show them biblical prophecies and support them with knowledge, they reject the knowledge. They would rather listen to their own interpretations which keeps the very confused.

Does anyone other than you believe in the religion you created? : :

All religions, philosophy, science, the written and spoken languages, and false gods built by human hands came from information called the Beast.

I am the only person who knows how religion was formed besides the former saints who were killed off by the time the Roman Emperor Constantine announced that the pagan religion called Christianity was the accepted religion in the Roman Empire. Once they killed off all the saints, Christianity flourished because there wasn't anyone around to point out the false prophets ( popes, bishops, cardinals, etc. ) who made new laws contrary to the Law of God that the saints spoke for our Creator.

Every single Christian, Muslim and Jew have been deceived by what they read in their holy books because the were never used to testify to the words, visions, dreams and spoken analogies that were fed into their minds via the voice of God. Only us saints learn how we're created and a few chosen believers who listen to the gospel ( voice of God ) that we preach to them. Those who were chosen to listen will learn exactly how our Creator spoke his creation into existence by using technology called the voice of God.

Your religion has one adherent. Yourself. That says everything we need to know about its credibility. What have you called the false religion you created? : :

Our Creator created all the religions, sciences, languages, visible objects, etc. with technology called the voice of God. That is not a false religion. That is called the Truth.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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6/3/2016 10:35:47 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 9:30:27 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 7:53:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

One's life here is a natural good. There is no evil in attempting to repair that which is not working properly.

If your God is omnipotent and omniscient then why do people get brain tumours if it's not God's will that they get brain tumours and die what is it?

God permits evil in order to accomplish a greater good. There is a natural process in the world of which suffering is a part. Suffering allows us to grow closer to God.

If God creates and ends life surely intervening to prolong life is going against God's wishes?

Then Jesus would've been acting against his own will. It is not wrong to correct good things that have gone bad - otherwise eating would be immoral too.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

So atheists give up easier.

We accept we are not immortal and know when our times up our times up. We don't see any benefits from suffering in severe pain for a few extra days of a frankly miserable existence.

Life is a gift, all stages of which are to be lived to the fullest - even the parts that suck. Now it is not incumbent on a Christian to fight death. Natural death is natural death, we are only preventing from ending it ourselves.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

No.

On what basis?

Natural evidence.

Got any scriptural evidence?

Jesus does a bunch of healing. There are a few in the old testament like the people being healed of serpent bites.

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

Do you really want scriptural evidence?

Yes.

Mary gets pregnant by the Holy Spirit and she travels right away to see her cousin Elizabeth at which time she is proclaimed to be the mother of her Lord. So if Mary is a mother right from the beginning, Jesus was a person right from the beginning.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

Huh? So because I believe murder is wrong, I shouldn't fight cancer?

You believe God is the only being with the right to take and give life. Therefore because you believe abortion is going against the will of god as it takes life away that god intended to continue then by prolonging and therefore giving life to someone who would otherwise die of natural causes you are giving life when according to you only God has that right. If the person who is ill with a brain tumour has the tumour for any reason other than it's God's will then he is not omnipotent and omniscient.

God has given us dominion on the earth. We can choose to do good or evil. It is good to restore something back to proper functioning. It is wrong to wrongfully destroy something that is functioning properly.

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Not at all. There is nothing wrong with repairing something that is no longer acting according to its nature.

Death is natural as is pain, suffering and disability. Medical treatment goes against nature. God obviously wants people to go through these things or they would not happen.

Medical treatment restores something back to the way it was supposed to function - it doesn't go against nature, it restores something to the way nature designed it to work.

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

Or do atheists merely see no point in suffering whereas Christians do? Just "Good time Charlies".

We are less scared of death and see no point of a truly miserable existence with no hope of recovery.

If life couldn't be extended by any reasonable extent I wouldn't undergo treatment. I'm willing to meet my maker. One is always allowed to refuse treatment.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared?

Judgement. Being Christian does not guarantee entry into heaven.

I've yet to hear of a funeral held at a church where the vicar says anything other than the person in question is anywhere other than with Jesus and the Lord in heaven. Most Christians seem confident family members are in heaven even if they often completely contradicted Christian teaching through their lives.

Yeah, well... what can I say. They probably weren't Catholic. In a Catholic Church you go to make intercessory prayers on the person's behalf, and traditionally the coffin is draped in black as a symbol of finality and fear of judgement of the soul. Only someone who is widely acknowledged as a living saint should have the coffin draped in white.

You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

One can join their suffering to Christ's here on earth in order to better love him in preparation for heaven.

So Is getting treatment for cancer going against God's wishes as you are avoiding necessary suffering he intended for you to bring you closer to Jesus?

From what I understand cancer treatments are not avoidance of suffering. One is to embrace their suffering when it is experienced. It is not wrong to bring it to an end either.

Maybe he intended to give you cancer to test your faith?

God knows your faith, he doesn't need to test it. However, suffering can bring you closer to God.

To see if you trusted him completely and allowed nature and his plan to take its course?

Why? God gave us brains to use and to go forth and do good. Fatalism is not part of Christianity.
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
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6/3/2016 10:44:35 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 9:39:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death.
Back when Christianity was first codified there were plagues, famines, an infant mortality rate of about one in three, and cruel tyrants ran the world. (For example, in the time attested to Jesus, Caligula ran Rome.) Cruelty and injustice were inevitable; early death was commonplace. A harsh life didn't have to be embraced -- that's what you got by default.

So a popular attraction of Christianity in comparison to polytheistic faiths was the promise of a moral order to a cruel and unjust world. Apparently (according to my readings) working-class Roman housewives especially found Christianity attractive -- perhaps because it offered them more dignity than the alternatives at the time.

But our world has changed. Beginning in the Renaissance, humanistic thought both religious and secular has helped create today's moral order. Our world is kinder to everyone, and more respectful of everyone -- not because religious doctrine has made it so, but because humans had to correct repeated failures in their religious doctrines -- failures that began with injustices between early church bishops, and exploded into genocidal injustices spanning millennia between Christian sects and toward non-Christian peoples.

The secular civilisation of Christianity has benefited everyone, but Christians especially. Christians are now living safer, more peaceful, more respected lives than they ever did in the early days of Graeco-Roman Christianity, or the Mediaeval period that followed.

Of course today's Christians still want heaven -- the promise of a more morally-ordered world than the one they inhabit, which also panders to their intolerances, and in which they see all the privilege. But they also want the kindness, peace, justice, education and wealth that secular thought has brought them. So many Christians seem to tell themselves a sort of story: that the wonders of the world today is the product of early Christianity, and a promise of things to come.

But it's really not. Christian doctrine was never designed for the world we inhabit, and is inadequate to sustain it. Moreover, today's egalitarian moral order is not and cannot be the one promised Christians because it doesn't honour the sense of paternalistic, patriarchal privilege enshrined in Christian canon.

The secular civilisation of Christianity continues apace. Perhaps one day Christianity will finally dismantle its sense of entitled superiority, from which most Christian cruelty and injustice derives.

But meanwhile, yes Chloe: it does look hypocritical for a faith to accept the benefits of secular thought while proclaiming itself the solution to the problems of a world that really, no longer exists.

ME: Maybe Christians seek medical help just because they don't feel well.

The serious answer is that we do not own our body, it was created and is owned by God. We are told to look after our body, before we get sick from self induced stuff (Medicines and wacky cures) and when we are struck by the worlds many illnesses.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/3/2016 10:48:13 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 10:15:23 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/3/2016 10:11:25 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 9:41:49 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/3/2016 9:31:24 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:58:42 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die. : :

Christians don't understand anything they read in the Bible. Their interpretations lead them away from the Truth instead of understanding what the Truth is. Not one Christian knows how they were created so without this knowledge, they don't know who they are or how it's possible eternal life could be true. When I show them biblical prophecies and support them with knowledge, they reject the knowledge. They would rather listen to their own interpretations which keeps the very confused.

Does anyone other than you believe in the religion you created? : :

All religions, philosophy, science, the written and spoken languages, and false gods built by human hands came from information called the Beast.

I am the only person who knows how religion was formed besides the former saints who were killed off by the time the Roman Emperor Constantine announced that the pagan religion called Christianity was the accepted religion in the Roman Empire. Once they killed off all the saints, Christianity flourished because there wasn't anyone around to point out the false prophets ( popes, bishops, cardinals, etc. ) who made new laws contrary to the Law of God that the saints spoke for our Creator.

Every single Christian, Muslim and Jew have been deceived by what they read in their holy books because the were never used to testify to the words, visions, dreams and spoken analogies that were fed into their minds via the voice of God. Only us saints learn how we're created and a few chosen believers who listen to the gospel ( voice of God ) that we preach to them. Those who were chosen to listen will learn exactly how our Creator spoke his creation into existence by using technology called the voice of God.

Your religion has one adherent. Yourself. That says everything we need to know about its credibility. What have you called the false religion you created? : :

Our Creator created all the religions, sciences, languages, visible objects, etc. with technology called the voice of God. That is not a false religion. That is called the Truth.

It is fascinating people actually convince themselves they are a religious figure. You are living proof that Jesus could have thought he was really a messiah and tricked just 12 people into martyrdom for believing the false religion he created was the truth.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/3/2016 10:48:29 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 10:44:35 PM, Peternosaint wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:39:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death.
Back when Christianity was first codified there were plagues, famines, an infant mortality rate of about one in three, and cruel tyrants ran the world. (For example, in the time attested to Jesus, Caligula ran Rome.) Cruelty and injustice were inevitable; early death was commonplace. A harsh life didn't have to be embraced -- that's what you got by default.

Christian doctrine was never designed for the world we inhabit, and is inadequate to sustain it. Moreover, today's egalitarian moral order is not and cannot be the one promised Christians because it doesn't honour the sense of paternalistic, patriarchal privilege enshrined in Christian canon.

The secular civilisation of Christianity continues apace. Perhaps one day Christianity will finally dismantle its sense of entitled superiority, from which most Christian cruelty and injustice derives.

But meanwhile, it does look hypocritical for a faith to accept the benefits of secular thought while proclaiming itself the solution to the problems of a world that really, no longer exists.

ME: Maybe Christians seek medical help just because they don't feel well.

The serious answer is that we do not own our body, it was created and is owned by God. We are told to look after our body, before we get sick from self induced stuff (Medicines and wacky cures) and when we are struck by the worlds many illnesses.

Peter, since your comments address Chloe's points, but are not relevant to mine, I understand that despite replying to my post, you intend this post to reply to Chloe's.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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6/3/2016 11:04:09 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 9:39:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death.
Back when Christianity was first codified there were plagues, famines, an infant mortality rate of about one in three, and cruel tyrants ran the world. (For example, in the time attested to Jesus, Caligula ran Rome.) Cruelty and injustice were inevitable; early death was commonplace. A harsh life didn't have to be embraced -- that's what you got by default.

And yet those same early Christians took care of those who were abandoned by the society at large - namely widows and orphans.

So a popular attraction of Christianity in comparison to polytheistic faiths was the promise of a moral order to a cruel and unjust world. Apparently (according to my readings) working-class Roman housewives especially found Christianity attractive -- perhaps because it offered them more dignity than the alternatives at the time.

Christianity offers more dignity than any other belief system. Many early converts were men as well. It brings mercy to a compassionless world.

But our world has changed. Beginning in the Renaissance, humanistic thought both religious and secular has helped create today's moral order. Our world is kinder to everyone, and more respectful of everyone -- not because religious doctrine has made it so, but because humans had to correct repeated failures in their religious doctrines -- failures that began with injustices between early church bishops, and exploded into genocidal injustices spanning millennia between Christian sects and toward non-Christian peoples.

lol. We are regressing as a society as Christian beliefs disappear.

The secular civilisation of Christianity has benefited everyone, but Christians especially. Christians are now living safer, more peaceful, more respected lives than they ever did in the early days of Graeco-Roman Christianity, or the Mediaeval period that followed.

The western world is running on the momentum that Christianity gave it. A soft persecution is starting, it is only going to increase.

Of course today's Christians still want heaven -- the promise of a more morally-ordered world than the one they inhabit, which also panders to their intolerances, and in which they see all the privilege. But they also want the kindness, peace, justice, education and wealth that secular thought has brought them. So many Christians seem to tell themselves a sort of story: that the wonders of the world today is the product of early Christianity, and a promise of things to come.

Christianity created western civilization as we know it. The fact that in the past 75ish years we have progressively abandoned it will be the undoing of the western world.

But it's really not. Christian doctrine was never designed for the world we inhabit, and is inadequate to sustain it. Moreover, today's egalitarian moral order is not and cannot be the one promised Christians because it doesn't honour the sense of paternalistic, patriarchal privilege enshrined in Christian canon.

Christian doctrine is the only one that works, because it is the only one aligned with the truth.

The secular civilisation of Christianity continues apace. Perhaps one day Christianity will finally dismantle its sense of entitled superiority, from which most Christian cruelty and injustice derives.

The real Christian persecution is quickly approaching.

But meanwhile, yes Chloe: it does look hypocritical for a faith to accept the benefits of secular thought

Which are?

while proclaiming itself the solution to the problems of a world that really, no longer exists.

Do tell.
simplelife
Posts: 134
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6/3/2016 11:07:26 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 10:48:13 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 10:15:23 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/3/2016 10:11:25 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 9:41:49 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/3/2016 9:31:24 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:58:42 PM, simplelife wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die. : :

Christians don't understand anything they read in the Bible. Their interpretations lead them away from the Truth instead of understanding what the Truth is. Not one Christian knows how they were created so without this knowledge, they don't know who they are or how it's possible eternal life could be true. When I show them biblical prophecies and support them with knowledge, they reject the knowledge. They would rather listen to their own interpretations which keeps the very confused.

Does anyone other than you believe in the religion you created? : :

All religions, philosophy, science, the written and spoken languages, and false gods built by human hands came from information called the Beast.

I am the only person who knows how religion was formed besides the former saints who were killed off by the time the Roman Emperor Constantine announced that the pagan religion called Christianity was the accepted religion in the Roman Empire. Once they killed off all the saints, Christianity flourished because there wasn't anyone around to point out the false prophets ( popes, bishops, cardinals, etc. ) who made new laws contrary to the Law of God that the saints spoke for our Creator.

Every single Christian, Muslim and Jew have been deceived by what they read in their holy books because the were never used to testify to the words, visions, dreams and spoken analogies that were fed into their minds via the voice of God. Only us saints learn how we're created and a few chosen believers who listen to the gospel ( voice of God ) that we preach to them. Those who were chosen to listen will learn exactly how our Creator spoke his creation into existence by using technology called the voice of God.

Your religion has one adherent. Yourself. That says everything we need to know about its credibility. What have you called the false religion you created? : :

Our Creator created all the religions, sciences, languages, visible objects, etc. with technology called the voice of God. That is not a false religion. That is called the Truth.

It is fascinating people actually convince themselves they are a religious figure. You are living proof that Jesus could have thought he was really a messiah and tricked just 12 people into martyrdom for believing the false religion he created was the truth. : :

I really don't know what the names of the former prophets and saints were who were used to testify to the voice of God that reveals the knowledge to know how we're created and how we'll be experiencing life in the future. The Bible contains English names but when the various writings they used for the Bible were written, English wasn't a language being used by anyone. English came from Latin roots so it's impossible for us to know what their actual names were back then.

Christianity wasn't formed by us saints who testify to the voice of God. Christianity was started by religious Jews who loved their Jewish traditions and pagan customs and teachings. They stole some written and spoken words by the saints and mixed them with their religious teachings to put into their New Testament. The New Testament wasn't written yet when the saints were preaching the true gospel which is the voice of God. Most of their original writings were destroyed because the religious Christian leaders did not want their followers reading them. This is why the Pope announced to the followers of Christianity that those written gospels were evil gnostic writings that should be avoided.

This means that the true gospel wasn't spoken for over 1700 years while Christianity was growing into the largest pagan religion on earth. Christianity was formed by the Beast in the minds of those religious men who had no idea what the voice of God was because they never heard it speak words into their minds like it did in the minds of all us saints and prophets.

I don't care whether you believe the gospel words I preach or not. I know how you were created and that you will awaken in the next part of the simulation program with a perfect partner of the opposite sex. You will never be bored or lonely again in Paradise. We will never build any object with our human hands again and we won't understand what good and evil are. We will all learn that everything we experience comes into our mind via the voice of God from the stored information in the program.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,011
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6/3/2016 11:23:11 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.

As a Catholic, I would assert that relying on a doctor is very biblical...

Sirach, Chapter 38

1
Make friends with the doctor, for he is essential to you;*
God has also established him in his profession.
2
From God the doctor has wisdom,
and from the king he receives sustenance.
3
Knowledge makes the doctor distinguished,
and gives access to those in authority.
4
God makes the earth yield healing herbs
which the prudent should not neglect;
5
Was not the water sweetened by a twig,
so that all might learn his power?a
6
He endows people with knowledge,
to glory in his mighty works,
7
Through which the doctor eases pain,
8
and the druggist prepares his medicines.
Thus God"s work continues without cease
in its efficacy on the surface of the earth.
9
My son, when you are ill, do not delay,
but pray to God, for it is he who heals.b
10
Flee wickedness and purify your hands;
cleanse your heart of every sin.
11
Offer your sweet-smelling oblation and memorial,
a generous offering according to your means.c
12
Then give the doctor his place
lest he leave; you need him too,
13
For there are times when recovery is in his hands.
14
He too prays to God
That his diagnosis may be correct
and his treatment bring about a cure.
15
Whoever is a sinner before his Maker
will be defiant toward the doctor.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/3/2016 11:24:55 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
God permits evil in order to accomplish a greater good. There is a natural process in the world of which suffering is a part. Suffering allows us to grow closer to God.

That's quite frankly ridiculous. An omnipotent God has no reason to allow evil to exist other than it wanting its presence and enjoying watching its creations suffering.

If God creates and ends life surely intervening to prolong life is going against God's wishes?

Then Jesus would've been acting against his own will. It is not wrong to correct good things that have gone bad - otherwise eating would be immoral too.

But Jesus is part of the trinity and therefore has the right to prolong life as he is God. Unless you admit Christianity is a polytheistic religion which I guarantee you won't.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

So atheists give up easier.

We accept we are not immortal and know when our times up our times up. We don't see any benefits from suffering in severe pain for a few extra days of a frankly miserable existence.

Life is a gift, all stages of which are to be lived to the fullest - even the parts that suck. Now it is not incumbent on a Christian to fight death. Natural death is natural death, we are only preventing from ending it ourselves.

I'm not claiming Christians are commanded to extend life I'm saying it's a fact they are more likely to seek to do so.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

No.

On what basis?

Natural evidence.

Natural evidence suggests without medical treatment many Christians who seek it would die, proving my point that seeking medical treatment is going against God's will.

Got any scriptural evidence?

Jesus does a bunch of healing. There are a few in the old testament like the people being healed of serpent bites.

But remember Jesus is God! He has the authority to give and take life!

Unless as I said earlier you admit Christianity is a polytheistic religion?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

Do you really want scriptural evidence?

Yes.

Mary gets pregnant by the Holy Spirit and she travels right away to see her cousin Elizabeth at which time she is proclaimed to be the mother of her Lord. So if Mary is a mother right from the beginning, Jesus was a person right from the beginning.

This is discussing the life of a god not an ordinary human! It's not relevant!

Try again and please provide actual scripture not your recollection of it.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

Huh? So because I believe murder is wrong, I shouldn't fight cancer?

How do you know that your God shares those views? As I said earlier there is no scriptural evidence supporting your position.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient he knows the path everyone will follow when he creates them. Theoretically he should have known that creating Adam and Eve would eventually lead to the existence of me and you for example. There is no reason for a God who is omnipotent and omniscient to allow the existence of evil to happen.

Not at all. There is nothing wrong with repairing something that is no longer acting according to its nature.

Death is natural as is pain, suffering and disability. Medical treatment goes against nature. God obviously wants people to go through these things or they would not happen.

Medical treatment restores something back to the way it was supposed to function - it doesn't go against nature, it restores something to the way nature designed it to work.

If illness, death and suffering are not natural then what are they?

Every living thing has a life cycle that inevitably involves death. Changing the time the living thing dies is allowing things to unfold in a way contradictory to what otherwise would have happened.

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

Or do atheists merely see no point in suffering whereas Christians do? Just "Good time Charlies".

We are less scared of death and see no point of a truly miserable existence with no hope of recovery.

If life couldn't be extended by any reasonable extent I wouldn't undergo treatment. I'm willing to meet my maker. One is always allowed to refuse treatment.

Remember I have proved in this thread Christians are more likely to seek to extend life in desperate scenarios then atheists. It's not about you but Christians in general.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared?

Judgement. Being Christian does not guarantee entry into heaven.

I've yet to hear of a funeral held at a church where the vicar says anything other than the person in question is anywhere other than with Jesus and the Lord in heaven. Most Christians seem confident family members are in heaven even if they often completely contradicted Christian teaching through their lives.

Yeah, well... what can I say. They probably weren't Catholic. In a Catholic Church you go to make intercessory prayers on the person's behalf, and traditionally the coffin is draped in black as a symbol of finality and fear of judgement of the soul. Only someone who is widely acknowledged as a living saint should have the coffin draped in white.

Claiming someone is a living saint contradicts biblical teaching as only God can make judgment not humans.

So Is getting treatment for cancer going against God's wishes as you are avoiding necessary suffering he intended for you to bring you closer to Jesus?

From what I understand cancer treatments are not avoidance of suffering. One is to embrace their suffering when it is experienced. It is not wrong to bring it to an end either.

Any scriptural evidence supporting your view that it is acceptable to go against nature and therefore God's plan to end the suffering you are enduring?

Maybe he intended to give you cancer to test your faith?

God knows your faith, he doesn't need to test it. However, suffering can bring you closer to God.

He tested Abraham and Job. Obviously being omniscient he knows the results of such tests before he conducts them but these tests could be for the human?

To see if you trusted him completely and allowed nature and his plan to take its course?

Why? God gave us brains to use and to go forth and do good. Fatalism is not part of Christianity.

But he created and continues to allow evil and suffering. Fatalism is part of Christianity because you believe in an omniscient deity who has already laid out the future in revelation.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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6/4/2016 12:03:40 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 11:23:11 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.

As a Catholic, I would assert that relying on a doctor is very biblical...





Sirach, Chapter 38

1
Make friends with the doctor, for he is essential to you;*
God has also established him in his profession.
2
From God the doctor has wisdom,
and from the king he receives sustenance.
3
Knowledge makes the doctor distinguished,
and gives access to those in authority.
4
God makes the earth yield healing herbs
which the prudent should not neglect;
5
Was not the water sweetened by a twig,
so that all might learn his power?a
6
He endows people with knowledge,
to glory in his mighty works,
7
Through which the doctor eases pain,
8
and the druggist prepares his medicines.
Thus God"s work continues without cease
in its efficacy on the surface of the earth.
9
My son, when you are ill, do not delay,
but pray to God, for it is he who heals.b
10
Flee wickedness and purify your hands;
cleanse your heart of every sin.
11
Offer your sweet-smelling oblation and memorial,
a generous offering according to your means.c
12
Then give the doctor his place
lest he leave; you need him too,
13
For there are times when recovery is in his hands.
14
He too prays to God
That his diagnosis may be correct
and his treatment bring about a cure.
15
Whoever is a sinner before his Maker
will be defiant toward the doctor.

Yet you have no biblical evidence. If you didn't already know Sirach did not make it into the bible so if the council of nicaea was divinely influenced god did not see it's inclusion in the bible to be neccessary and therefore it's teaching has no relevance or importance.

The fact I have forced Christians to look outside the bible to find support for their interpretations underlines what a great point I have made in this thread.

It's clear seeking medical treatment is going against the will of God as only he has the power to take and give life according to the bible.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/4/2016 12:12:25 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 11:04:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:39:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death.
Back when Christianity was first codified there were plagues, famines, an infant mortality rate of about one in three, and cruel tyrants ran the world. (For example, in the time attested to Jesus, Caligula ran Rome.) Cruelty and injustice were inevitable; early death was commonplace. A harsh life didn't have to be embraced -- that's what you got by default.
And yet those same early Christians took care of those who were abandoned by the society at large - namely widows and orphans.
Yes. Charity is a traditional and essential Christian ethic, and I think it's to Christian credit in spirit, if not always in deed.

So a popular attraction of Christianity in comparison to polytheistic faiths was the promise of a moral order to a cruel and unjust world. Apparently (according to my readings) working-class Roman housewives especially found Christianity attractive -- perhaps because it offered them more dignity than the alternatives at the time.
Christianity offers more dignity than any other belief system.
How would you know if it didn't, George?

Many early converts were men as well.
Yes, since all the Christian patriarchs were.

It brings mercy to a compassionless world.
So it claims.

But our world has changed. Beginning in the Renaissance, humanistic thought both religious and secular has helped create today's moral order. Our world is kinder to everyone, and more respectful of everyone -- not because religious doctrine has made it so, but because humans had to correct repeated failures in their religious doctrines -- failures that began with injustices between early church bishops, and exploded into genocidal injustices spanning millennia between Christian sects and toward non-Christian peoples.
lol. We are regressing as a society as Christian beliefs disappear.
So Christians like to believe.

The secular civilisation of Christianity has benefited everyone, but Christians especially. Christians are now living safer, more peaceful, more respected lives than they ever did in the early days of Graeco-Roman Christianity, or the Mediaeval period that followed.
The western world is running on the momentum that Christianity gave it. A soft persecution is starting, it is only going to increase.
It might, George, but Christians are still largely blind to the paternalism, vilification and persecution innate and unaddressed in their own faith. It's very early days to insist that Christians are the principle or sole victims of an anti-Christian world.

Of course today's Christians still want heaven -- the promise of a more morally-ordered world than the one they inhabit, which also panders to their intolerances, and in which they see all the privilege. But they also want the kindness, peace, justice, education and wealth that secular thought has brought them. So many Christians seem to tell themselves a sort of story: that the wonders of the world today is the product of early Christianity, and a promise of things to come.
Christianity created western civilization as we know it.
It certainly contributed. However Christian apologetics have a history of claiming credit for anything good a Christian ever participated in, while blaming secular society for anything bad Christians ever did.

There's no transparency and accountability in that line of argument. The reality is that the last four centuries of modern justice are unsupported by Christian canon. So either you oppose democracy and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on grounds that traditional Christian doctrine should be sufficient, or you support it as an improvement on anything in the Bible, or you lie and pretend that early Church fathers had that in mind when they settled on Christian canon and wrote their theology.

The fact that in the past 75ish years we have progressively abandoned it will be the undoing of the western world.
Is there a millennial cult that doesn't believe such things? Is there a single, millennial version of monotheism that doesn't predict that when they lose control of the candy-jar, the world will slide into anarchy and barbarism?

To me it's the essential monotheistic conceit.

Christian doctrine was never designed for the world we inhabit, and is inadequate to sustain it. Moreover, today's egalitarian moral order is not and cannot be the one promised Christians because it doesn't honour the sense of paternalistic, patriarchal privilege enshrined in Christian canon.
Christian doctrine is the only one that works, because it is the only one aligned with the truth.
Christian theology is massively deficient in knowledge, transparency and accountability, George. Christians have no right to even claim truth, much less lay claim to monopoly on it.

The secular civilisation of Christianity continues apace. Perhaps one day Christianity will finally dismantle its sense of entitled superiority, from which most Christian cruelty and injustice derives.
The real Christian persecution is quickly approaching.
So, in anxiety about future persecution, you can dismiss the entitlement, belligerence, dishonesty and bullying of Christians today?

But meanwhile, yes Chloe: it does look hypocritical for a faith to accept the benefits of secular thought
Which are?
To name just a few: medicine, racial, gender and religious equality, intellectual freedom, intergenerational ethics, professional ethics, the accountability of government, the rights of the citizen, the rights of the child -- none of which are captured or even acknowledged in Biblical canon.

while proclaiming itself the solution to the problems of a world that really, no longer exists.
Do tell.

Christian thought was written after the collapse of the Roman Republic, with its seminal attested events occurring at a time when Caligula was emperor, and there was no science. It was a world of patriarchy, tyranny, autocracy, violence and superstition. Such ignorance is all through the thought of Christian authors, and all through Christian canon and later theology. If Christian doctrine were written today, it'd be written kinder, smarter, more respectfully, and more justly -- because that's the world we live in.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,011
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6/4/2016 12:15:20 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/4/2016 12:03:40 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 11:23:11 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.

As a Catholic, I would assert that relying on a doctor is very biblical...





Sirach, Chapter 38

1
Make friends with the doctor, for he is essential to you;*
God has also established him in his profession.
2
From God the doctor has wisdom,
and from the king he receives sustenance.
3
Knowledge makes the doctor distinguished,
and gives access to those in authority.
4
God makes the earth yield healing herbs
which the prudent should not neglect;
5
Was not the water sweetened by a twig,
so that all might learn his power?a
6
He endows people with knowledge,
to glory in his mighty works,
7
Through which the doctor eases pain,
8
and the druggist prepares his medicines.
Thus God"s work continues without cease
in its efficacy on the surface of the earth.
9
My son, when you are ill, do not delay,
but pray to God, for it is he who heals.b
10
Flee wickedness and purify your hands;
cleanse your heart of every sin.
11
Offer your sweet-smelling oblation and memorial,
a generous offering according to your means.c
12
Then give the doctor his place
lest he leave; you need him too,
13
For there are times when recovery is in his hands.
14
He too prays to God
That his diagnosis may be correct
and his treatment bring about a cure.
15
Whoever is a sinner before his Maker
will be defiant toward the doctor.

Yet you have no biblical evidence. If you didn't already know Sirach did not make it into the bible so if the council of nicaea was divinely influenced god did not see it's inclusion in the bible to be neccessary and therefore it's teaching has no relevance or importance.

The fact I have forced Christians to look outside the bible to find support for their interpretations underlines what a great point I have made in this thread.

It's clear seeking medical treatment is going against the will of God as only he has the power to take and give life according to the bible.

With all due respect, you don't know your history. First, the Council of Nicea didn't deal with the issue of the Canon of the Old Testament, it was called to deal with the issue of arianism. The book of Sirach has ALWAYS been a part of all Christian Bibles until the Protestants removed it from theirs. At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546). Sirach made the cut.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/4/2016 8:04:59 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/4/2016 12:15:20 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/4/2016 12:03:40 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 11:23:11 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?

Many Christians claim that atheists are atheists because they know they are living immoral lives and pretend God does not exist merely to escape the thought of the punishment they will endure in hell. The fact atheists fear death considerably less than Christians disproves this claim.

It's Christians who are supposedly set to enjoy a blissful eternal existence and atheists who accept that death means death. What makes Christians so scared? You would think they would have nothing to fear or even look forward to death if they were certain in their beliefs. What would motive a Christian to continue in this life while paralysed from the neck down when they could be enjoying heaven?

I'm my opinion Christians are nowhere near as certain heaven exists as they claim to be. They don't even admit this doubt to themselves in the fear their god may punish them for doubting him so suppress these thoughts as soon as they arrive. However the actions taken by Christians in seeking medical treatment are a clear demonstration of doubt which would be obvious to the Christian god if it exists. Seeking medical treatment is also going against his will as if he gave you appendicitis when you were 19 he wanted you to die.

As a Catholic, I would assert that relying on a doctor is very biblical...





Sirach, Chapter 38

1
Make friends with the doctor, for he is essential to you;*
God has also established him in his profession.
2
From God the doctor has wisdom,
and from the king he receives sustenance.
3
Knowledge makes the doctor distinguished,
and gives access to those in authority.
4
God makes the earth yield healing herbs
which the prudent should not neglect;
5
Was not the water sweetened by a twig,
so that all might learn his power?a
6
He endows people with knowledge,
to glory in his mighty works,
7
Through which the doctor eases pain,
8
and the druggist prepares his medicines.
Thus God"s work continues without cease
in its efficacy on the surface of the earth.
9
My son, when you are ill, do not delay,
but pray to God, for it is he who heals.b
10
Flee wickedness and purify your hands;
cleanse your heart of every sin.
11
Offer your sweet-smelling oblation and memorial,
a generous offering according to your means.c
12
Then give the doctor his place
lest he leave; you need him too,
13
For there are times when recovery is in his hands.
14
He too prays to God
That his diagnosis may be correct
and his treatment bring about a cure.
15
Whoever is a sinner before his Maker
will be defiant toward the doctor.

Yet you have no biblical evidence. If you didn't already know Sirach did not make it into the bible so if the council of nicaea was divinely influenced god did not see it's inclusion in the bible to be neccessary and therefore it's teaching has no relevance or importance.

The fact I have forced Christians to look outside the bible to find support for their interpretations underlines what a great point I have made in this thread.

It's clear seeking medical treatment is going against the will of God as only he has the power to take and give life according to the bible.


With all due respect, you don't know your history. First, the Council of Nicea didn't deal with the issue of the Canon of the Old Testament, it was called to deal with the issue of arianism. The book of Sirach has ALWAYS been a part of all Christian Bibles until the Protestants removed it from theirs. At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546). Sirach made the cut.

I apologize. I've only read a protestant bible so didn't know it was included in Catholic bible's. Therefore I accept this argument is only valid against denominations that don't include Sirach as it does condone seeking medical treatment.

It's fair to say that the precise date the bible's of various denominations were compiled in their current forms is disputed and not knowable with 100% certainty. It's fair to say though that protestants were idiotic to omit this useful bit of scripture from their bibles.

All the disagreements, councils, false scripture and false denominations are such strong evidence that Christianity is false. If it was true the truth would be obvious and no disputes on Canon and scripture would happen.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
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6/4/2016 9:03:16 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/3/2016 10:48:29 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/3/2016 10:44:35 PM, Peternosaint wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:39:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death.
Back when Christianity was first codified there were plagues, famines, an infant mortality rate of about one in three, and cruel tyrants ran the world. (For example, in the time attested to Jesus, Caligula ran Rome.) Cruelty and injustice were inevitable; early death was commonplace. A harsh life didn't have to be embraced -- that's what you got by default.

Christian doctrine was never designed for the world we inhabit, and is inadequate to sustain it. Moreover, today's egalitarian moral order is not and cannot be the one promised Christians because it doesn't honour the sense of paternalistic, patriarchal privilege enshrined in Christian canon.

The secular civilisation of Christianity continues apace. Perhaps one day Christianity will finally dismantle its sense of entitled superiority, from which most Christian cruelty and injustice derives.

But meanwhile, it does look hypocritical for a faith to accept the benefits of secular thought while proclaiming itself the solution to the problems of a world that really, no longer exists.

ME: Maybe Christians seek medical help just because they don't feel well.

The serious answer is that we do not own our body, it was created and is owned by God. We are told to look after our body, before we get sick from self induced stuff (Medicines and wacky cures) and when we are struck by the worlds many illnesses.

Peter, since your comments address Chloe's points, but are not relevant to mine, I understand that despite replying to my post, you intend this post to reply to Chloe's.

ME: MY apologies. Just a throw in Luke was a practicing doctor and a man of God. This might answer the question.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/4/2016 9:28:54 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/4/2016 9:03:16 AM, Peternosaint wrote:
At 6/3/2016 10:48:29 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/3/2016 10:44:35 PM, Peternosaint wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:39:00 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death.
Back when Christianity was first codified there were plagues, famines, an infant mortality rate of about one in three, and cruel tyrants ran the world. (For example, in the time attested to Jesus, Caligula ran Rome.) Cruelty and injustice were inevitable; early death was commonplace. A harsh life didn't have to be embraced -- that's what you got by default.

Christian doctrine was never designed for the world we inhabit, and is inadequate to sustain it. Moreover, today's egalitarian moral order is not and cannot be the one promised Christians because it doesn't honour the sense of paternalistic, patriarchal privilege enshrined in Christian canon.

The secular civilisation of Christianity continues apace. Perhaps one day Christianity will finally dismantle its sense of entitled superiority, from which most Christian cruelty and injustice derives.

But meanwhile, it does look hypocritical for a faith to accept the benefits of secular thought while proclaiming itself the solution to the problems of a world that really, no longer exists.

ME: Maybe Christians seek medical help just because they don't feel well.

The serious answer is that we do not own our body, it was created and is owned by God. We are told to look after our body, before we get sick from self induced stuff (Medicines and wacky cures) and when we are struck by the worlds many illnesses.

Peter, since your comments address Chloe's points, but are not relevant to mine, I understand that despite replying to my post, you intend this post to reply to Chloe's.

ME: MY apologies. Just a throw in Luke was a practicing doctor and a man of God. This might answer the question.

I didn't ask one, Peter, but Chloe did.

Please feel free to respond to one of her posts.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,011
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6/4/2016 11:58:55 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/4/2016 8:04:59 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/4/2016 12:15:20 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/4/2016 12:03:40 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/3/2016 11:23:11 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/2/2016 9:05:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
You would think with the promise of eternal life in heaven Christians would have no need to fear death. If they are certain their religion is the truth you would think a diagnosis of a terminal illness would be accepted without too much fuss or worry and the individual in question would assume that God has decided its time for them to move into the next life.

However this is not the case. Christians are more likely than atheists to seek aggressive life prolonging treatment in the final week of life than atheists. This can be explained by people who don't fear death not seeing the need to believe in a religion in the hope of eternal life even if the evidence supporting the religion in question is non existent. Religion is often a comfort to those who fear death.

http://www.patheos.com...

http://scienceblogs.com...

This leads me to this question;

Is seeking medical treatment going against God's will?

Christians condemn abortion because it's supposedly against God's will despite there not being clear scriptural evidence God considers life to begin at conception and therefore be murder which is against God's will.

So why do you seek medical treatment?

I understand maybe getting treated for an injury or something caused directly by your actions but wouldn't getting treatment for a brain tumor, a heart attack or any other illness not directly caused by your own actions be going against the will of God?



As a Catholic, I would assert that relying on a doctor is very biblical...





Sirach, Chapter 38

1
Make friends with the doctor, for he is essential to you;*
God has also established him in his profession.
2
From God the doctor has wisdom,
and from the king he receives sustenance.
3
Knowledge makes the doctor distinguished,
and gives access to those in authority.
4
God makes the earth yield healing herbs
which the prudent should not neglect;
5
Was not the water sweetened by a twig,
so that all might learn his power?a
6
He endows people with knowledge,
to glory in his mighty works,
7
Through which the doctor eases pain,
8
and the druggist prepares his medicines.
Thus God"s work continues without cease
in its efficacy on the surface of the earth.
9
My son, when you are ill, do not delay,
but pray to God, for it is he who heals.b
10
Flee wickedness and purify your hands;
cleanse your heart of every sin.
11
Offer your sweet-smelling oblation and memorial,
a generous offering according to your means.c
12
Then give the doctor his place
lest he leave; you need him too,
13
For there are times when recovery is in his hands.
14
He too prays to God
That his diagnosis may be correct
and his treatment bring about a cure.
15
Whoever is a sinner before his Maker
will be defiant toward the doctor.

Yet you have no biblical evidence. If you didn't already know Sirach did not make it into the bible so if the council of nicaea was divinely influenced god did not see it's inclusion in the bible to be neccessary and therefore it's teaching has no relevance or importance.

The fact I have forced Christians to look outside the bible to find support for their interpretations underlines what a great point I have made in this thread.

It's clear seeking medical treatment is going against the will of God as only he has the power to take and give life according to the bible.


With all due respect, you don't know your history. First, the Council of Nicea didn't deal with the issue of the Canon of the Old Testament, it was called to deal with the issue of arianism. The book of Sirach has ALWAYS been a part of all Christian Bibles until the Protestants removed it from theirs. At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546). Sirach made the cut.

I apologize. I've only read a protestant bible so didn't know it was included in Catholic bible's. Therefore I accept this argument is only valid against denominations that don't include Sirach as it does condone seeking medical treatment.


I appreciate the apology and retraction.

It's fair to say that the precise date the bible's of various denominations were compiled in their current forms is disputed and not knowable with 100% certainty.

I would disagree with that. We know when each denomination began, and when each translation was written. What specific one do you have a question about? I'd be happy to clear up any confusion.

It's fair to say though that protestants were idiotic to omit this useful bit of scripture from their bibles.

Well, I would prefer to say they were mistaken, but I agree with the overall gist of what you are saying. They removed the books of the Bible they disagreed with. That's never a good idea.

All the disagreements, councils, false scripture and false denominations are such strong evidence that Christianity is false.

It's evidence that Protestantism is false.

If it was true the truth would be obvious and no disputes on Canon and scripture would happen.

As I showed before, there's been no doubt what the Catholic Church's position is on scripture. The division is the fault of those who rebelled... the protestants. So if there's anyone who is lacking some truth, it's them.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax