Total Posts:23|Showing Posts:1-23
Jump to topic:

The unjust nature of Judgment

Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
According to many religions people are either sent to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity. Once sent to these mysterious places people have no opportunity to to ever leave them. There is no precedent for people behaving badly in heaven being sent to hell or people behaving well in heaven being sent to heaven.

Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell. This is despite nearly all theists supporting criminal justice systems where after serving a punishment for so many years people are given a second chance.

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?

Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin. Considering how many people must be in heaven it's strange to think not one of them would ever do anything wrong unless god takes away the freewill allegedly so important to these religions.

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

It's not as if human behaviour on earth can clearly demonstrate some people are inherently good and others inherently evil. Most fall somewhere in between the two categories.

It seems strange a just and reasonable God can make a judgment on a person in between these two categories and send them to the best imaginable place or the worst imaginable place for eternity. It's bizarre how after this judgment is made the person becomes completely good or completely evil. How do they suddenly change from in between to one of two extremes?

Is it fair a half hearted theist who just made the cut gets an equally good afterlife to a devout adherent of a true faith?

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

A fairer scenario would see a far greater number of post life on earth destinations to account for different types of people and the varying degrees of good and evil. People could be rewarded for future good behavior and punished for future bad behavior and possibly move from one destination to another depending on their behaviour and conduct.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2016 7:45:46 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Didn't notice the typo on the title until after I pressed add post. What a twonk.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,271
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2016 7:55:43 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?


I'm not a theist, but i have spent some time thinking about their afterlife belief. The best explanation i have heard is that God judges off the heart (or soul) of the person. Being powerful and omnipotent, God would just know if the person "cuts it." The ones that fall in-between would be judged off their hearts and either found guilty or not. The ones that were once evil would get the same judgement bc God would know if they have actually changed to let them into Heaven. Ultimately, their idea of heaven is flawed for more than just this reason, but this was the best explanation i could think of that theists seem to agree with.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2016 8:29:06 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 7:55:43 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?


I'm not a theist, but i have spent some time thinking about their afterlife belief. The best explanation i have heard is that God judges off the heart (or soul) of the person. Being powerful and omnipotent, God would just know if the person "cuts it." The ones that fall in-between would be judged off their hearts and either found guilty or not. The ones that were once evil would get the same judgement bc God would know if they have actually changed to let them into Heaven. Ultimately, their idea of heaven is flawed for more than just this reason, but this was the best explanation i could think of that theists seem to agree with.

So you don't consider this point particularly strong?

I don't see how people can simply be all good or all evil. The concept of heaven and hellis quite simply unfair. The key flaw in the argument you propose is how do people near the cut off point suddenly become perfect in heaven or pure evil in hell?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
12_13
Posts: 1,362
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2016 8:43:44 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell.

It would be good to notice, hell is the place where soul and body are destroyed. If one is destroyed it is the end, there is no life and no returning. And if one has no life, I don"t see how he could suffer.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28-31

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?

I believe He gives and has given, but if person is unrighteous and doesn"t want to become righteous, then it is better if God doesn"t let it continue forever, because it would make life eternal suffering for all.

Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin.

Bible tells that Jesus sets free from sin.

If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

John 8:36

By words that Jesus declared person can become righteous and free from sin. And to get eternal life, person must be righteous:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And if person is righteous, it means:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

There are really only two options, righteous, or not righteous.

It is not about are people good. Even Jesus said he is not good and that only God is good.

Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one-God.
Luke 18:19

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

Unrighteous is unrighteous. It doesn"t matter how many evil thing you have done, even single proves you evil. Person who is not evil, can"t do even one evil act.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,866
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2016 8:50:43 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
According to many religions people are either sent to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity. Once sent to these mysterious places people have no opportunity to to ever leave them. There is no precedent for people behaving badly in heaven being sent to hell or people behaving well in heaven being sent to heaven.

Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell. This is despite nearly all theists supporting criminal justice systems where after serving a punishment for so many years people are given a second chance.

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?
Appeal to authority fallacy. You're claiming people are authorities on what God will or will not ultimately do. The authority you need to ask would be Jesus, not people. But since you can't have an actual discussion with the authority on what you claim, you attempt to engage non authorities because you lack basic logic skills. I expect you to now contradict yourself and claim God doesn't exist and neither does Jesus. That would then make your question irrelevant. So either ask the authority Jesus, or stop acting like you have a relevant question when the question itself is fallacious reasoning.
Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin. Considering how many people must be in heaven it's strange to think not one of them would ever do anything wrong unless god takes away the freewill allegedly so important to these religions.

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

It's not as if human behaviour on earth can clearly demonstrate some people are inherently good and others inherently evil. Most fall somewhere in between the two categories.

It seems strange a just and reasonable God can make a judgment on a person in between these two categories and send them to the best imaginable place or the worst imaginable place for eternity. It's bizarre how after this judgment is made the person becomes completely good or completely evil. How do they suddenly change from in between to one of two extremes?

Is it fair a half hearted theist who just made the cut gets an equally good afterlife to a devout adherent of a true faith?

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

A fairer scenario would see a far greater number of post life on earth destinations to account for different types of people and the varying degrees of good and evil. People could be rewarded for future good behavior and punished for future bad behavior and possibly move from one destination to another depending on their behaviour and conduct.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,271
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2016 9:10:26 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 8:29:06 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/6/2016 7:55:43 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?


I'm not a theist, but i have spent some time thinking about their afterlife belief. The best explanation i have heard is that God judges off the heart (or soul) of the person. Being powerful and omnipotent, God would just know if the person "cuts it." The ones that fall in-between would be judged off their hearts and either found guilty or not. The ones that were once evil would get the same judgement bc God would know if they have actually changed to let them into Heaven. Ultimately, their idea of heaven is flawed for more than just this reason, but this was the best explanation i could think of that theists seem to agree with.

So you don't consider this point particularly strong?

I consider it to be the strongest. Another i have heard added to this is that you will be perfect like God (or in God's kingdom). That of course i see flaws in too, for who am i if i am perfect? Who makes me perfect? Why can't i think i am perfect now? ... so, the way theists give two sides "Heaven and Hell" is flawed in that regard too or just in general.

I don't see how people can simply be all good or all evil. The concept of heaven and hellis quite simply unfair. The key flaw in the argument you propose is how do people near the cut off point suddenly become perfect in heaven or pure evil in hell?

The general is what you say here... where is the cut off point? So... to judge off the "heart" would be the most accurate way to do it. Something like God would be able to read a person's goodness not only in the present but in the future too, for they can't eventually turn evil and be in heaven. Why do all this though? Both in heaven and here... if God had this power, then ... God already knows who will be in heaven. So... basically, the people that will burn in hell and fly in heaven are already picked - god already knows which is kinda messed up in my opinion. Bottom line though, i don't think theists have really thought out what "Heaven" means; furthermore, i think theists think of hell much more than heaven. To them, it seems to me at least, heaven is what they want, and hell is an insult when they need to use it. But... thinking about the true implications of the eternal states is not a strength i have seen many theists have.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,271
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2016 9:24:15 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 8:43:44 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell.

It would be good to notice, hell is the place where soul and body are destroyed. If one is destroyed it is the end, there is no life and no returning. And if one has no life, I don"t see how he could suffer.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28-31

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?

I believe He gives and has given, but if person is unrighteous and doesn"t want to become righteous, then it is better if God doesn"t let it continue forever, because it would make life eternal suffering for all.

Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin.

Bible tells that Jesus sets free from sin.

If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

John 8:36

By words that Jesus declared person can become righteous and free from sin. And to get eternal life, person must be righteous:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And if person is righteous, it means:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

There are really only two options, righteous, or not righteous.

It is not about are people good. Even Jesus said he is not good and that only God is good.

Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one-God.
Luke 18:19

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

Unrighteous is unrighteous. It doesn"t matter how many evil thing you have done, even single proves you evil. Person who is not evil, can"t do even one evil act.

All this is good and all, but what is Heaven? What is paradise? For, i am sure, you and i have different definitions. The soul will be destroyed? So... that is the extent to which evil gets punished? They are just erased? So... why even have evil if it is just eventually going to be erased? I am saying this assuming that God already knows who will be evil; God has this power right? An omnipotent being would know. Back to the first question though... what if heaven to me is living with evil? What if i willingly choose to be in a "realm" where there is evil? What if Paradise to me is living as many mortal lives rather than having one immortal life? And, what if... having one immortal life (even in Heaven) is considered hell to me? There are many scriptures, and the ones you show here talking about getting into heaven, but what is heaven? Isn't it pretty subjective? I am sure your God knows this, so do you not think it has accounted for this? Lastly, if God has accounted for this, doesn't it seem like a multiple heaven analogy would work best? In this scenario, everyone will get to have their peace as they see it... but then, the implications of this would come out to many heavens, which then seems to lead to many truths.
Casten
Posts: 391
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2016 9:56:58 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Wait, what?

I know I'm hardly a Biblical scholar, but Christianity was always presented to me as having pretty strong themes of redemption. Christians have told me that if one sincerely repents, asks God's forgiveness, and commits to fighting sin in the future, just about anyone can be saved. I'm sure this is one of Christianity's major appeals to those who feel like they need to be redeemed.
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2016 10:03:16 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
People passing judgement on God's judgement. That's funny.

When you realize that God is The Ultimate Reality, you realize that God's judgement pretty much has to be what happens.

It is what it is. You can come to terms with it, or suffer in delusion. It's your choice.

And don't bother asking "why". "Why" is an intrinsically inane question that stems from a naive understanding of the nature of causality.

In other words, if your house gets hit with a meteor and blows up, don't get too bent out of shape about it. It might not have had anything to do with you being a dirt bag.

Be like Job. He knew better than to curse God because of his circumstance. Yelling at the sky, "I don't like the way things are, so to hell with reality!" is incredibly petulant.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2016 12:07:42 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 7:45:46 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Didn't notice the typo on the title until after I pressed add post. What a twonk.

The grammar nazis will eat you alive.
Meh!
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2016 12:22:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 8:50:43 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
According to many religions people are either sent to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity. Once sent to these mysterious places people have no opportunity to to ever leave them. There is no precedent for people behaving badly in heaven being sent to hell or people behaving well in heaven being sent to heaven.

Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell. This is despite nearly all theists supporting criminal justice systems where after serving a punishment for so many years people are given a second chance.

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?

Appeal to authority fallacy. You're claiming people are authorities on what God will or will not ultimately do. The authority you need to ask would be Jesus, not people.

Considering "theists" not "Christians" was the topic, I don't think that is correct. Either way, Chloe has hinted at a dichotomy that does seem to run through nearly all religions regarding punishment in the afterlife, and no, there has not been a precedent set or hinted at that enables one to leave their sentence.

But since you can't have an actual discussion with the authority on what you claim, you attempt to engage non authorities because you lack basic logic skills.

No, because the specific authority in question is not available, Chloe is taking the word of the adherents and devotees of religion, those whom are willing to speak on behalf of God and relate what God has "told" them. Much in the same way a traffic cop is happy to give you a ticket, but cannot actually judge you guilty, theists (the traffic cops) are happy to relate how God (the judge) will behave. And on the matter of heaven and hell, Chloe seems to have rendered an appropriate synopsis. That is to say, Heaven/Hell are one way. Do you know of any religions in which exemption from an afterlife in which the deity assigns you is temporary?

I expect you to now contradict yourself and claim God doesn't exist and neither does Jesus. That would then make your question irrelevant. So either ask the authority Jesus, or stop acting like you have a relevant question when the question itself is fallacious reasoning.

This does prompt the question as to how one expects a correct answer when one asks an authority that doesn't meaningfully answer.

Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin. Considering how many people must be in heaven it's strange to think not one of them would ever do anything wrong unless god takes away the freewill allegedly so important to these religions.

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

It's not as if human behaviour on earth can clearly demonstrate some people are inherently good and others inherently evil. Most fall somewhere in between the two categories.

It seems strange a just and reasonable God can make a judgment on a person in between these two categories and send them to the best imaginable place or the worst imaginable place for eternity. It's bizarre how after this judgment is made the person becomes completely good or completely evil. How do they suddenly change from in between to one of two extremes?

Is it fair a half hearted theist who just made the cut gets an equally good afterlife to a devout adherent of a true faith?

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

A fairer scenario would see a far greater number of post life on earth destinations to account for different types of people and the varying degrees of good and evil. People could be rewarded for future good behavior and punished for future bad behavior and possibly move from one destination to another depending on their behaviour and conduct.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
desmac
Posts: 5,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2016 12:38:19 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
To be fair to the catholics (it goes against the grain, but never mind for now) they did invent the concept of purgatory, where minor sinners who'd done the crime could serve their time in hell like conditions for a few billion years before being forgiven and allowed into heaven.
Of course, this turned into a nice little earner when they started selling indulgences to get a reduced sentence in purgatory.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2016 1:30:30 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
According to many religions people are either sent to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity. Once sent to these mysterious places people have no opportunity to to ever leave them. There is no precedent for people behaving badly in heaven being sent to hell or people behaving well in heaven being sent to heaven.

Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell. This is despite nearly all theists supporting criminal justice systems where after serving a punishment for so many years people are given a second chance.

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?

Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin. Considering how many people must be in heaven it's strange to think not one of them would ever do anything wrong unless god takes away the freewill allegedly so important to these religions.

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

It's not as if human behaviour on earth can clearly demonstrate some people are inherently good and others inherently evil. Most fall somewhere in between the two categories.

It seems strange a just and reasonable God can make a judgment on a person in between these two categories and send them to the best imaginable place or the worst imaginable place for eternity. It's bizarre how after this judgment is made the person becomes completely good or completely evil. How do they suddenly change from in between to one of two extremes?

Is it fair a half hearted theist who just made the cut gets an equally good afterlife to a devout adherent of a true faith?

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

A fairer scenario would see a far greater number of post life on earth destinations to account for different types of people and the varying degrees of good and evil. People could be rewarded for future good behavior and punished for future bad behavior and possibly move from one destination to another depending on their behaviour and conduct.

Chapter and verse needed.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,866
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2016 1:39:47 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 12:22:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/6/2016 8:50:43 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
According to many religions people are either sent to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity. Once sent to these mysterious places people have no opportunity to to ever leave them. There is no precedent for people behaving badly in heaven being sent to hell or people behaving well in heaven being sent to heaven.

Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell. This is despite nearly all theists supporting criminal justice systems where after serving a punishment for so many years people are given a second chance.

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?


Appeal to authority fallacy. You're claiming people are authorities on what God will or will not ultimately do. The authority you need to ask would be Jesus, not people.

Considering "theists" not "Christians" was the topic, I don't think that is correct. Either way, Chloe has hinted at a dichotomy that does seem to run through nearly all religions regarding punishment in the afterlife, and no, there has not been a precedent set or hinted at that enables one to leave their sentence.
Actually in the bible there are verses that do enable one to leave their sentence of hell.. It's in revelations. The verse says, "those that overcome will not be hurt at all by the second death". Second death specifically means that this is being said to those who have suffered the first death, death of your body. So if our souls overcome what it is given to do, then they won't be committed to an eternity in hell. And based on some of the "I have this against you and I will...so and so" there are examples of what can be overcome that are strikingly similar to being in hell. One specifically says "do not fear what you are about to suffer. The devil will put some of you in prison and persecute you for 10 days. But do not lose faith and you will receive the life of the victors crown..." Rev 2,...8~11

But since you can't have an actual discussion with the authority on what you claim, you attempt to engage non authorities because you lack basic logic skills.

No, because the specific authority in question is not available,
This is false. The authority is Jesus and Jesus is available to all who seek him. Problem is the seeking might be longer for some or instantaneous for others.
Chloe is taking the word of the adherents and devotees of religion, those whom are willing to speak on behalf of God and relate what God has "told" them. Much in the same way a traffic cop is happy to give you a ticket, but cannot actually judge you guilty, theists (the traffic cops) are happy to relate how God (the judge) will behave. And on the matter of heaven and hell, Chloe seems to have rendered an appropriate synopsis. That is to say, Heaven/Hell are one way. Do you know of any religions in which exemption from an afterlife in which the deity assigns you is temporary?
See above.....
Christianity specifically says that only Jesus could know the means of judgement. To assert that theists simply talk for their God is irrelevant as far as Christianity because if they truly speak for the God they believe in they know that the word of God says that nobody knows how judgement will be handled except Jesus. Btw. I argue simply from concept and interpretations of the concept are still debatable so I merely read what is said and then convey what it seems to mean as best as I can.
I expect you to now contradict yourself and claim God doesn't exist and neither does Jesus. That would then make your question irrelevant. So either ask the authority Jesus, or stop acting like you have a relevant question when the question itself is fallacious reasoning.

This does prompt the question as to how one expects a correct answer when one asks an authority that doesn't meaningfully answer.


Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin. Considering how many people must be in heaven it's strange to think not one of them would ever do anything wrong unless god takes away the freewill allegedly so important to these religions.

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

It's not as if human behaviour on earth can clearly demonstrate some people are inherently good and others inherently evil. Most fall somewhere in between the two categories.

It seems strange a just and reasonable God can make a judgment on a person in between these two categories and send them to the best imaginable place or the worst imaginable place for eternity. It's bizarre how after this judgment is made the person becomes completely good or completely evil. How do they suddenly change from in between to one of two extremes?

Is it fair a half hearted theist who just made the cut gets an equally good afterlife to a devout adherent of a true faith?

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

A fairer scenario would see a far greater number of post life on earth destinations to account for different types of people and the varying degrees of good and evil. People could be rewarded for future good behavior and punished for future bad behavior and possibly move from one destination to another depending on their behaviour and conduct.
12_13
Posts: 1,362
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2016 9:17:56 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 9:24:15 PM, Outplayz wrote:
All this is good and all, but what is Heaven? What is paradise?

It is a place of righteousness, love and God and there is no evil. I don"t know more about it.

The soul will be destroyed? So... that is the extent to which evil gets punished? They are just erased? So... why even have evil if it is just eventually going to be erased?

I think there are two reasons. First is, people wanted to know evil. That is why we are in this death to really know what evil means (lack of love and unrighteousness). Second reason is love:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

I think it is great thing that God allows us to have evidence and proof for that His judgment is correct. If He would just give judgment without letting us to prove what kind of people we are, it would not be as good.

Back to the first question though... what if heaven to me is living with evil? What if i willingly choose to be in a "realm" where there is evil?

I don"t think you really understand what it means. But anyway, I think it might be possible that hell is place where people can be without God and good. Life without God would burn like hell.

What if Paradise to me is living as many mortal lives rather than having one immortal life? And, what if... having one immortal life (even in Heaven) is considered hell to me?

It is interesting idea. I am sure that no one will have to suffer in heaven. :)
uncung
Posts: 3,452
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2016 12:31:26 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
According to many religions people are either sent to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity. Once sent to these mysterious places people have no opportunity to to ever leave them. There is no precedent for people behaving badly in heaven being sent to hell or people behaving well in heaven being sent to heaven.

Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell. This is despite nearly all theists supporting criminal justice systems where after serving a punishment for so many years people are given a second chance.

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?

Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin. Considering how many people must be in heaven it's strange to think not one of them would ever do anything wrong unless god takes away the freewill allegedly so important to these religions.

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

It's not as if human behaviour on earth can clearly demonstrate some people are inherently good and others inherently evil. Most fall somewhere in between the two categories.

It seems strange a just and reasonable God can make a judgment on a person in between these two categories and send them to the best imaginable place or the worst imaginable place for eternity. It's bizarre how after this judgment is made the person becomes completely good or completely evil. How do they suddenly change from in between to one of two extremes?

Is it fair a half hearted theist who just made the cut gets an equally good afterlife to a devout adherent of a true faith?

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

A fairer scenario would see a far greater number of post life on earth destinations to account for different types of people and the varying degrees of good and evil. People could be rewarded for future good behavior and punished for future bad behavior and possibly move from one destination to another depending on their behaviour and conduct.

Once one dies there would be no longer any second chance ever. He/she merely rely on the merciful and the forgiveness of Allah.
Likewise in hell, once people enter it don't hope they would be saved ever. However some inhabitants would be tortured in hell temporarily, but temporary is not a short time either, it could be thousand centuries, since 1 day in hell equal to 1000 years on earth.
Thus, there would be no time definitely in hell. Temporary is just like forever.
In case of the Between hell and heaven category, there is a place so called Al A'raf. It is the place for the people who their good and bad deeds are equilibrium.

Learn Islam, it describes the afterlife in detail.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2016 12:40:32 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 12:31:26 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
According to many religions people are either sent to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity. Once sent to these mysterious places people have no opportunity to to ever leave them. There is no precedent for people behaving badly in heaven being sent to hell or people behaving well in heaven being sent to heaven.

Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell. This is despite nearly all theists supporting criminal justice systems where after serving a punishment for so many years people are given a second chance.

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?

Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin. Considering how many people must be in heaven it's strange to think not one of them would ever do anything wrong unless god takes away the freewill allegedly so important to these religions.

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

It's not as if human behaviour on earth can clearly demonstrate some people are inherently good and others inherently evil. Most fall somewhere in between the two categories.

It seems strange a just and reasonable God can make a judgment on a person in between these two categories and send them to the best imaginable place or the worst imaginable place for eternity. It's bizarre how after this judgment is made the person becomes completely good or completely evil. How do they suddenly change from in between to one of two extremes?

Is it fair a half hearted theist who just made the cut gets an equally good afterlife to a devout adherent of a true faith?

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

A fairer scenario would see a far greater number of post life on earth destinations to account for different types of people and the varying degrees of good and evil. People could be rewarded for future good behavior and punished for future bad behavior and possibly move from one destination to another depending on their behaviour and conduct.

Once one dies there would be no longer any second chance ever. He/she merely rely on the merciful and the forgiveness of Allah.
Likewise in hell, once people enter it don't hope they would be saved ever. However some inhabitants would be tortured in hell temporarily, but temporary is not a short time either, it could be thousand centuries, since 1 day in hell equal to 1000 years on earth.
Thus, there would be no time definitely in hell. Temporary is just like forever.
In case of the Between hell and heaven category, there is a place so called Al A'raf. It is the place for the people who their good and bad deeds are equilibrium.

Learn Islam, it describes the afterlife in detail.

That is entirely impossible. No one can describe an afterlife, if such a thing even exists, which is highly unlikely. Anyone who tries is obviously lying.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
uncung
Posts: 3,452
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2016 12:43:22 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 12:40:32 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/8/2016 12:31:26 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
According to many religions people are either sent to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity. Once sent to these mysterious places people have no opportunity to to ever leave them. There is no precedent for people behaving badly in heaven being sent to hell or people behaving well in heaven being sent to heaven.

Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell. This is despite nearly all theists supporting criminal justice systems where after serving a punishment for so many years people are given a second chance.

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?

Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin. Considering how many people must be in heaven it's strange to think not one of them would ever do anything wrong unless god takes away the freewill allegedly so important to these religions.

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

It's not as if human behaviour on earth can clearly demonstrate some people are inherently good and others inherently evil. Most fall somewhere in between the two categories.

It seems strange a just and reasonable God can make a judgment on a person in between these two categories and send them to the best imaginable place or the worst imaginable place for eternity. It's bizarre how after this judgment is made the person becomes completely good or completely evil. How do they suddenly change from in between to one of two extremes?

Is it fair a half hearted theist who just made the cut gets an equally good afterlife to a devout adherent of a true faith?

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

A fairer scenario would see a far greater number of post life on earth destinations to account for different types of people and the varying degrees of good and evil. People could be rewarded for future good behavior and punished for future bad behavior and possibly move from one destination to another depending on their behaviour and conduct.

Once one dies there would be no longer any second chance ever. He/she merely rely on the merciful and the forgiveness of Allah.
Likewise in hell, once people enter it don't hope they would be saved ever. However some inhabitants would be tortured in hell temporarily, but temporary is not a short time either, it could be thousand centuries, since 1 day in hell equal to 1000 years on earth.
Thus, there would be no time definitely in hell. Temporary is just like forever.
In case of the Between hell and heaven category, there is a place so called Al A'raf. It is the place for the people who their good and bad deeds are equilibrium.

Learn Islam, it describes the afterlife in detail.

That is entirely impossible. No one can describe an afterlife, if such a thing even exists, which is highly unlikely. Anyone who tries is obviously lying.

It is possible. Islam describes the hell in detail, the color of the flame, the deep, the torment types, the guards, and so on. Likewise the paradise.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,271
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2016 12:43:43 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 9:17:56 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/6/2016 9:24:15 PM, Outplayz wrote:
All this is good and all, but what is Heaven? What is paradise?

It is a place of righteousness, love and God and there is no evil. I don"t know more about it.

Thank you for your honesty. I believe it is more of a concept; however, i also believe there are places one would define as Heaven that the righteous go to.

The soul will be destroyed? So... that is the extent to which evil gets punished? They are just erased? So... why even have evil if it is just eventually going to be erased?

I think there are two reasons. First is, people wanted to know evil. That is why we are in this death to really know what evil means (lack of love and unrighteousness). Second reason is love:

I actually like this answer. I believe a little differently, however the places i would choose to live with "evil" are a bit different than this realm's evil. One witnesses evil to its full extent as a mortal in a human experience. Why would we ever come to a world like this? Well, you answered it with your second reasoning... One also witnesses love to its full extent as a human. It is an interesting thought - that we would choose to come here of our own free will.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

I think it is great thing that God allows us to have evidence and proof for that His judgment is correct. If He would just give judgment without letting us to prove what kind of people we are, it would not be as good.

I personally believe we have our ultimate reality as our immortal source; in death. What i mean is, we have been given free will already by god. The free will we have here is our own doing... the free will we will have in our ultimate reality is amazing (which is an understatement to some), or not...depends on your character and who you are.

Back to the first question though... what if heaven to me is living with evil? What if i willingly choose to be in a "realm" where there is evil?

I don"t think you really understand what it means. But anyway, I think it might be possible that hell is place where people can be without God and good. Life without God would burn like hell.

I understand it pretty well, but that is my own assertion. Think about how i said i would live many mortal lives. I wouldn't want all of them to be the same, so some may have evil in different forms. However, where ever a person like you or me ends up... it won't be void of god. Our character is of god...

What if Paradise to me is living as many mortal lives rather than having one immortal life? And, what if... having one immortal life (even in Heaven) is considered hell to me?

It is interesting idea. I am sure that no one will have to suffer in heaven. :)

I am sure there is a place where there is no suffering. However, i am sure, at least in my own regards, that i would willingly go to a realm that has suffering in it... but, my purpose most likely would be to ease the suffering the best i can. Living one immortal life is hard to imagine, even if it is forever nice... forever, eternal... it's a long time.
Rukado
Posts: 527
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2016 1:46:48 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?

God doesn't even give us a first chance. "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth... Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

It's not about chances.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2016 4:06:31 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/6/2016 7:43:34 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
According to many religions people are either sent to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity. Once sent to these mysterious places people have no opportunity to to ever leave them. There is no precedent for people behaving badly in heaven being sent to hell or people behaving well in heaven being sent to heaven.

Theists do not consider that maybe those who have done wrong may deserve redemption after say 10 trillion years in hell. This is despite nearly all theists supporting criminal justice systems where after serving a punishment for so many years people are given a second chance.

My question is, why does God not give people a second chance?

Theists believe all people in heaven are good so there Is no prospect of anyone doing anything wrong. This is a strange claim as these same theists admit no person is free from sin. Considering how many people must be in heaven it's strange to think not one of them would ever do anything wrong unless god takes away the freewill allegedly so important to these religions.

Now the main question. If everyone in heaven is perfect and will never do wrong and everyone in hell Is evil so don't deserve redemption and a second chance where is everyone in Between these two categories?

It's not as if human behaviour on earth can clearly demonstrate some people are inherently good and others inherently evil. Most fall somewhere in between the two categories.

It seems strange a just and reasonable God can make a judgment on a person in between these two categories and send them to the best imaginable place or the worst imaginable place for eternity. It's bizarre how after this judgment is made the person becomes completely good or completely evil. How do they suddenly change from in between to one of two extremes?

Is it fair a half hearted theist who just made the cut gets an equally good afterlife to a devout adherent of a true faith?

Is it fair another half hearted theist who just missed the cut gets an equally bad afterlife to Adolf Hitler?

A fairer scenario would see a far greater number of post life on earth destinations to account for different types of people and the varying degrees of good and evil. People could be rewarded for future good behavior and punished for future bad behavior and possibly move from one destination to another depending on their behaviour and conduct.

Which hell. There is no human hell with fire. Want to a debate on it?
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...