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Baby baptism

tarantula
Posts: 863
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6/7/2016 10:33:27 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 8:33:28 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
So why do babies get baptized again ?

https://www.youtube.com...

All baptism is a daft ritual, whether baby or adult.
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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6/7/2016 12:17:00 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 10:33:27 AM, tarantula wrote:
At 6/7/2016 8:33:28 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
So why do babies get baptized again ?

https://www.youtube.com...

All baptism is a daft ritual, whether baby or adult.

Well, for them it's important, so lets respect that.
Meh!
tarantula
Posts: 863
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6/7/2016 2:37:17 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 12:17:00 PM, Axonly wrote:
At 6/7/2016 10:33:27 AM, tarantula wrote:
At 6/7/2016 8:33:28 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
So why do babies get baptized again ?

https://www.youtube.com...

All baptism is a daft ritual, whether baby or adult.

Well, for them it's important, so lets respect that.

Hmmmmmmmmmm!
JusAnoCon
Posts: 27
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6/7/2016 3:59:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 8:33:28 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
So why do babies get baptized again ?

https://www.youtube.com...

Depends on who you ask. First of all, all branches of Christianity consider Baptism to be one of at least two rites, or sacraments, that are mandated by Christ. But as to what it means and what it actually does... that changes from denomination to denomination. To oversimplify, Catholics and Lutherans would say the baptism saves the child; grants it salvation. Presbyterian and Reformed churches would say that baptism is a continuation of the sign of God's covenant with His people, replacing the Jewish sign of circumcision. Baptists and most Evangelical churches would say you don't baptize the child, you baptize the adult as a public profession of faith before the church and the world.

This is, as I said, way oversimplified, but all of the above agree that the Sacrament of Baptism is a required part of the Christian Faith.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Inque Hominem Salutem. Soli Deo Gloria.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,056
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6/7/2016 4:15:15 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Infant baptism makes a lot of sense in times gone by when infant death was far more prevalent that it is today. Presumably infant baptism was at first an expedient which 'stuck' after its orginal purpose had faded.
sedevacantist
Posts: 37
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6/7/2016 5:03:09 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 8:33:28 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
So why do babies get baptized again ?

I didn't care to sit through the whole video, as the accent is similar to nails on a chalkboard for me. Regarding your question, however, Sacred Scripture teaches that no one will enter the Kingdom unless they are baptized:
"Jesus answered, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.'" (St. John 3:5)

This understanding is not exclusive to adults, as St. Matthew 19:14 records Jesus as saying the following: "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." It was circumcision that baptism replaced (Colossians 2:11, 12), and was circumcision not done to infants under the Old Covenant?
"Reveal to the faithful the wolves which are demolishing the Lord's vineyard."
- Pope Clement XIII, Encyclical Christianae Reipublicae, 1766
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/7/2016 8:43:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 8:33:28 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
So why do babies get baptized again ?

https://www.youtube.com...

Baptism should be the result of a conscious decision made in knowledge. No-one can make it for you.

No-one should be baptised unless they can demonstrate that they know what they are doing and are 100% convinced of their faith.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/7/2016 10:17:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 3:59:45 PM, JusAnoCon wrote:
Depends on who you ask. First of all, all branches of Christianity consider Baptism to be one of at least two rites, or sacraments, that are mandated by Christ. But as to what it means and what it actually does... that changes from denomination to denomination. To oversimplify, Catholics and Lutherans would say the baptism saves the child; grants it salvation. Presbyterian and Reformed churches would say that baptism is a continuation of the sign of God's covenant with His people, replacing the Jewish sign of circumcision. Baptists and most Evangelical churches would say you don't baptize the child, you baptize the adult as a public profession of faith before the church and the world.

This is, as I said, way oversimplified, but all of the above agree that the Sacrament of Baptism is a required part of the Christian Faith.

I would love to agree with you, except that you've oversimplified. :)
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/7/2016 10:20:38 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 4:15:15 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Infant baptism makes a lot of sense in times gone by when infant death was far more prevalent that it is today. Presumably infant baptism was at first an expedient which 'stuck' after its orginal purpose had faded.

I think you're on to something. Many of our beliefs are based on accommodating our circumstances.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/7/2016 10:25:25 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 8:43:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Baptism should be the result of a conscious decision made in knowledge. No-one can make it for you.

No-one should be baptised unless they can demonstrate that they know what they are doing and are 100% convinced of their faith.

Yeah, same with circumcision. God is so ignorant, telling Jews to circumcise babies. A baby can't make a decision in knowledge nor demonstrate they're 100% convinced of their faith.
JusAnoCon
Posts: 27
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6/8/2016 3:30:09 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
My, my, @Rukado, you must be an expert on baptism and the doctrines surrounding its various implementations. And how many years of study do you have on the topic? Please, do share what makes you a competent authority on the matter. I absolutely must know what expertise allows you to dismissively call a long list of men with Masters and Doctorate degrees on the matter 'ignorant', let alone God Himself.

Unless, of course, you don't believe in God or Baptism, in which case.. why are you even concerned with the answer to this thread's question at all? Just curious.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Inque Hominem Salutem. Soli Deo Gloria.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/8/2016 3:38:12 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 3:30:09 AM, JusAnoCon wrote:
My, my, @Rukado, you must be an expert on baptism and the doctrines surrounding its various implementations. And how many years of study do you have on the topic?

How many years of study do I need to know that circumcised babies didn't make a conscious decision in knowledge? Please explain how a baby that has been circumcised
demonstrated that they're 100% convinced of their faith.
JusAnoCon
Posts: 27
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6/8/2016 4:35:55 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 3:38:12 AM, Rukado wrote:
How many years of study do I need to know that circumcised babies didn't make a conscious decision in knowledge? Please explain how a baby that has been circumcised
demonstrated that they're 100% convinced of their faith.

Circumcision was never about the individual's faith, or whether or not they were convinced of it, but about being part of a family that was part of the Covenant with God; a sign of the protection that extended not just to the Jews "100% convinced of their faith" but also to their children, just as God said it was. It's something you'd know if you actually studied the issue. Ultimately, the choice to adhere to the Jewish faith was the child's, but being born into a Jewish family put him under the protection of the Covenant until that choice is able to be made.

Infant baptism, at least in the Presbyterian and Reformed perspective, is just the continuation of that sign. It doesn't confer salvation to the child or bind him to the faith; the baptism simply signifies that he or she is born into a Christian home and is under God's Covenant protection until the child is able to make a public profession of their faith before the Church. Or reject it.

It's really that simple.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Inque Hominem Salutem. Soli Deo Gloria.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/8/2016 6:01:18 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 4:35:55 AM, JusAnoCon wrote:
Circumcision was never about the individual's faith, or whether or not they were convinced of it, but about being part of a family that was part of the Covenant with God;

Do you have a point?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/8/2016 8:58:03 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 10:25:25 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/7/2016 8:43:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Baptism should be the result of a conscious decision made in knowledge. No-one can make it for you.

No-one should be baptised unless they can demonstrate that they know what they are doing and are 100% convinced of their faith.

Yeah, same with circumcision. God is so ignorant, telling Jews to circumcise babies. A baby can't make a decision in knowledge nor demonstrate they're 100% convinced of their faith.

Not remotely the same.

Back then circumcision was a health need. I take it you have never got sand or similar under your foreskin? It can cause a lot of problems, and a circumcised penis is much easier to clean.

I know, I was circumcised and I am very happy about it.

Apparently the least painful time for that to be done is around the 8 days mark.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/8/2016 1:10:40 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 8:58:03 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Apparently the least painful time for that to be done is around the 8 days mark.

Circumcision may have a health benefit, but that's not the biblical purpose of circumcision. (8 day mark because before then a baby's blood doesn't clot as well) It's your presumption that baptism should function any differently from circumcision.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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6/8/2016 1:50:45 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 8:33:28 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
So why do babies get baptized again ?

It's a ritual for the parents, assigning them the responsibility of raising their child in a religious tradition, and assuring them that their faith will embrace and protect their child.
JusAnoCon
Posts: 27
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6/8/2016 3:21:20 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:01:18 AM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/8/2016 4:35:55 AM, JusAnoCon wrote:
Circumcision was never about the individual's faith, or whether or not they were convinced of it, but about being part of a family that was part of the Covenant with God;

Do you have a point?

I don't know, do I? You're the one who asked the loaded question, Mr. Expert.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Inque Hominem Salutem. Soli Deo Gloria.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/8/2016 4:22:30 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 1:10:40 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/8/2016 8:58:03 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Apparently the least painful time for that to be done is around the 8 days mark.

Circumcision may have a health benefit, but that's not the biblical purpose of circumcision. (8 day mark because before then a baby's blood doesn't clot as well) It's your presumption that baptism should function any differently from circumcision.

In fact it is the reason Jehovah insisted on it.

Everything Jehovah insists on is for our benefit, simple as.

How do you imagine he benefits from any of it?

Do you think he expected his people to go round saying "I worship the true God, look here's my badge of office".

What is the point of a distinguishing feature which few are ever likely to see?

When did jehovah first insist on it?

When sending Abraham to wander in the desert.

When did he make it part of the law?

When Israel were wandering in the desert.

That is because it was a health instruction.

It may not be why the Jews insisted on it, but how often did they actually listen to their God?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/8/2016 4:25:39 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 1:50:45 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/7/2016 8:33:28 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
So why do babies get baptized again ?

It's a ritual for the parents, assigning them the responsibility of raising their child in a religious tradition, and assuring them that their faith will embrace and protect their child.

That may be all it is now, but that isn't how it started out, which is why Jehovah no longer demands it.

How does Jehovah benefit from rituals?

He doesn't, he only ever prescribed them to prove to the Israelites how futile they are, but humanity doesn't learn what it doesn't want to learn, no matter who is trying to teach them.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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6/8/2016 5:31:01 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 4:25:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2016 1:50:45 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/7/2016 8:33:28 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
So why do babies get baptized again ?

It's a ritual for the parents, assigning them the responsibility of raising their child in a religious tradition, and assuring them that their faith will embrace and protect their child.

That may be all it is now, but that isn't how it started out, which is why Jehovah no longer demands it.

How does Jehovah benefit from rituals?

The rituals aren't for "Jehovah".
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/8/2016 6:13:37 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 3:21:20 PM, JusAnoCon wrote:
I don't know, do I? You're the one who asked the loaded question, Mr. Expert.

Your response didn't answer my question.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/8/2016 6:15:55 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 4:22:30 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
That is because it was a health instruction.

Why did God not continue this "health instruction" in the NT?
JusAnoCon
Posts: 27
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6/8/2016 6:21:38 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:13:37 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:21:20 PM, JusAnoCon wrote:
I don't know, do I? You're the one who asked the loaded question, Mr. Expert.

Your response didn't answer my question.

Your question was loaded, so I unloaded it for you. If you wish to discuss the ability of an infant to reason or make choices, I'm sure there's another board or topic more suited to that issue. We're discussing Baptism, not infant cognition.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Inque Hominem Salutem. Soli Deo Gloria.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/8/2016 6:29:51 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 5:31:01 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/8/2016 4:25:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/8/2016 1:50:45 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/7/2016 8:33:28 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
So why do babies get baptized again ?

It's a ritual for the parents, assigning them the responsibility of raising their child in a religious tradition, and assuring them that their faith will embrace and protect their child.

That may be all it is now, but that isn't how it started out, which is why Jehovah no longer demands it.

How does Jehovah benefit from rituals?

The rituals aren't for "Jehovah".

No they are not, how on earth could he benefit from them when he only asks two things of us, as Christ reminded us:

You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart, your whole mind and your whole being.

and

You must love your neighbour as yourself.

When did circumcision start?

When Jehovah sent Abraham out into the desert to wander in the desert.

When did any rituals at all start?

In the Mosaic Law, after the Hebrews left Egypt, many, many years later.

That is why the Apostles didn't have any rituals, and why Jesus never taught them any.

That is why JWs don't have any rituals, apart from the necessary one of baptism.

True they have the habit of opening their meetings with song and prayer, but that is praise and supplication, not ritual.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/8/2016 6:31:40 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:21:38 PM, JusAnoCon wrote:
At 6/8/2016 6:13:37 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/8/2016 3:21:20 PM, JusAnoCon wrote:
I don't know, do I? You're the one who asked the loaded question, Mr. Expert.

Your response didn't answer my question.

Your question was loaded, so I unloaded it for you. If you wish to discuss the ability of an infant to reason or make choices, I'm sure there's another board or topic more suited to that issue. We're discussing Baptism, not infant cognition.

The trouble being that baptism and cognition are inseparable. How can a baby deiced it wants to, or is ready to get baptised?

No-one can make that decision for another,whatever their intentions, so infant baptism is invalid.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/8/2016 6:41:52 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:15:55 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/8/2016 4:22:30 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
That is because it was a health instruction.

Why did God not continue this "health instruction" in the NT?

Who says he didn't? The law may no longer be an active law code, but the principles in it are still valid. Don't forget we are no longer under the law, just the principles imbedded therein, just as Christ taught in his sermon on the mount, etc.

However his health instruction changed to fit the changed circumstances, for then and for now.

Circumcision is no longer needed for followers of Christ.

Hygiene relevant to where you live is.

Clean and modest clothing is.

Moral behaviour, which is partly a health recommendation also, is.

Abstention from blood usage is.

Refraining from defiling our body (smoking, drug abuse, gluttony, alcohol abuse, all of which are big problems today) is.

Those cover everything you could wish to know

Have you not noticed the health advice in the Christian Greek Scriptures?
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/8/2016 6:46:16 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:41:52 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Why did God not continue this "health instruction" in the NT?

Who says he didn't?

Uh, the New Testament. The New Testament deprecates circumcision (without referring to as a health instruction).
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/8/2016 6:49:03 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 6:31:40 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
The trouble being that [circumcision] and cognition are inseparable. How can a baby deiced it wants to, or is ready to get [circumcised]?

No-one can make that decision for another,whatever their intentions, so infant [circumcision]is invalid.

I fixed your post, and the Old Testament flat out contradicts you. Why shouldn't your baptism logic be equally applied to circumcision?