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Randomness results in something non random?

Riwaaz_Ras
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6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
What do you guys think.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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6/7/2016 5:14:52 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.

Interesting subject. Scientists have found example of self organization in nature (such as crystals).

Here is an in-depth explanation along with examples of observed self organization:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Order from chaos seems to be a universal reality.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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6/7/2016 5:51:39 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 5:14:52 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.

Interesting subject. Scientists have found example of self organization in nature (such as crystals).

Here is an in-depth explanation along with examples of observed self organization:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Order from chaos seems to be a universal reality.

For something to 'self organize' , it has to be non random right from the starting point.

QUOTE : Self-organization in micron-sized Nb3O7(OH) cubes during a hydrothermal treatment at 200 "C. Initially amorphous cubes gradually transform into ordered 3D meshes of crystalline nanowires as summarized in the model below.

The resulting organization is wholly decentralized or distributed over all the components of the system. UNQUOTE
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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6/7/2016 6:15:44 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 5:51:39 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 6/7/2016 5:14:52 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.

Interesting subject. Scientists have found example of self organization in nature (such as crystals).

Here is an in-depth explanation along with examples of observed self organization:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Order from chaos seems to be a universal reality.

For something to 'self organize' , it has to be non random right from the starting point.

QUOTE : Self-organization in micron-sized Nb3O7(OH) cubes during a hydrothermal treatment at 200 "C. Initially amorphous cubes gradually transform into ordered 3D meshes of crystalline nanowires as summarized in the model below.

The resulting organization is wholly decentralized or distributed over all the components of the system. UNQUOTE

I admit that I have not researched the subject as thoroughly as I plan to so I am not in a position to make claims about the implications of such observations. Regardless, the term they use to describe the process is "positive feedback loop" that creates emergent properties.

Almost everything has some order to begin with if you break it down small enough. Regardless, the laws that propel self organization are always present and do not require selective intervention.

I am an atheist in that I do not believe in a personal god that intervenes in the lives of a a species called humans on an insignificant planet called earth, particularly with regard to punishment or reward depending on what they do with their genitals.

I am agnostic; however, about whether there is an intelligent and/or conscious force in the universe so I would not be one to argue that self organization is proof of materialism. Actually, I lean towards the belief that intelligence and consciousness exist outside of our minds.

This video explains the interplay between order and entropy: https://www.youtube.com...
Chaosism
Posts: 2,659
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6/7/2016 6:20:57 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.

Hmmm... Can you please define "random" to make your intent clearer?
ironslippers
Posts: 513
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6/7/2016 6:24:36 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.

Random requires parameters
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
janesix
Posts: 3,460
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6/7/2016 8:17:20 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.
Of course. That's how we get outboard motors and precision optical instruments. Randomness.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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6/8/2016 4:34:28 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 6:24:36 PM, ironslippers wrote:
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.

Random requires parameters

which of course are not random.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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6/8/2016 4:39:37 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 6:15:44 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/7/2016 5:51:39 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 6/7/2016 5:14:52 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.

Interesting subject. Scientists have found example of self organization in nature (such as crystals).

Here is an in-depth explanation along with examples of observed self organization:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Order from chaos seems to be a universal reality.

For something to 'self organize' , it has to be non random right from the starting point.

QUOTE : Self-organization in micron-sized Nb3O7(OH) cubes during a hydrothermal treatment at 200 "C. Initially amorphous cubes gradually transform into ordered 3D meshes of crystalline nanowires as summarized in the model below.

The resulting organization is wholly decentralized or distributed over all the components of the system. UNQUOTE

I admit that I have not researched the subject as thoroughly

Is there any living being that is wholly decentralized or distributed over all the components of the system?
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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6/8/2016 4:42:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/7/2016 6:20:57 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.

Hmmm... Can you please define "random" to make your intent clearer?

Patternless. Purposeless.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,210
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6/8/2016 4:42:30 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 4:39:37 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 6/7/2016 6:15:44 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/7/2016 5:51:39 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 6/7/2016 5:14:52 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.

Interesting subject. Scientists have found example of self organization in nature (such as crystals).

Here is an in-depth explanation along with examples of observed self organization:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Order from chaos seems to be a universal reality.

For something to 'self organize' , it has to be non random right from the starting point.

QUOTE : Self-organization in micron-sized Nb3O7(OH) cubes during a hydrothermal treatment at 200 "C. Initially amorphous cubes gradually transform into ordered 3D meshes of crystalline nanowires as summarized in the model below.

The resulting organization is wholly decentralized or distributed over all the components of the system. UNQUOTE

I admit that I have not researched the subject as thoroughly

Is there any living being that is wholly decentralized or distributed over all the components of the system?

Certain fungi, if I remember correctly.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Chaosism
Posts: 2,659
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6/8/2016 6:19:16 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/8/2016 4:42:23 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 6/7/2016 6:20:57 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 6/7/2016 4:59:08 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
What do you guys think.

Hmmm... Can you please define "random" to make your intent clearer?

Patternless. Purposeless.

Thanks. This strikes me as a bit subjective, though.

What can appear as chaos might actually be a pattern that we don't see. For example, when a break occurs on a pool table (billiards), the movement of the balls appears chaotic, but in actuality, they are following a pattern, which is entirely discoverable though physics. Any experienced player can attest to this, as they make calculated breaks and shots. Can you give an example of something that is definitely not a pattern?

By purposeless, I assume you mean "caused without intentional instigation"? If this is the case, the result of an event or incident that is without purpose will never "gain" purpose (in this sense) as far I can reason; the result will always be as purposeless as the antecedental even or incident.