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Homosexuality is natural and normal

Chloe8
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6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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6/11/2016 5:01:48 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.

Natural. Not normal.

Homosexuality occurs in an incredibly slim portion of the population of various species, the norm, as an established standard or average, is heterosexuality.

Is homosexuality deviant?

By definition, yes.

Is it abnormal?

By definition, yes.

Is it aberrant?

By definition, yes.

Is it immoral?

Hardly. Just because something is abnormal or irregular, that doesn't in of it self make it immoral.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/11/2016 5:36:43 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 5:01:48 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.



Natural. Not normal.

Homosexuality occurs in an incredibly slim portion of the population of various species, the norm, as an established standard or average, is heterosexuality.

The point I'm making is that homosexuality is a normal occurrence in many animal species. In many species it is extremely common.

Is homosexuality deviant?

By definition, yes.

In many species that is not the case.

Is it abnormal?

By definition, yes.

No it is common throughout the animal kingdom.


Is it aberrant?

By definition, yes.

Homosexuality is extremely common and in some species is practiced by a majority of the population.

Is it immoral?

Hardly. Just because something is abnormal or irregular, that doesn't in of it self make it immoral.

Of course there is nothing immoral about homosexuality.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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6/11/2016 5:48:38 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 5:36:43 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:01:48 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.



Natural. Not normal.

Homosexuality occurs in an incredibly slim portion of the population of various species, the norm, as an established standard or average, is heterosexuality.

The point I'm making is that homosexuality is a normal occurrence in many animal species. In many species it is extremely common.

Not, its a natural occurrence. Something that occurs in less than 10% of a population is not a normal occurrence. It statically falls outside the trend, by wide margins.

Is homosexuality deviant?

By definition, yes.

In many species that is not the case.

In the many species, is said homosexual traits greater than 50% of the sample size? How about 40%? 30%? If the answer is no to any of those, you are going to have a hard time pitching it as "normal".

Is it abnormal?

By definition, yes.

No it is common throughout the animal kingdom.

By occurrence, not by frequency. Stating something happens as "natural" has firmly grounded roots. Stating something "Can be expected" is a true statement to a sample size. Calling infrequent-to-rare pairings "common" pushes an agenda. To wit, if in the course of a week, I eat six days worth of cereal, and one day of eggs and bacon, calling such an eggs and bacon occurrence "common" is simply not true. While it can be expected, its vast minority to the rest of the days, and is objectively uncommon.


Is it aberrant?

By definition, yes.

Homosexuality is extremely common and in some species is practiced by a majority of the population.

Citation, please. I am not familiar with any specie on the planet in which a majority of its members are found in same sex pairings.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/11/2016 6:51:17 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 5:48:38 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:36:43 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:01:48 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.



Natural. Not normal.

Homosexuality occurs in an incredibly slim portion of the population of various species, the norm, as an established standard or average, is heterosexuality.

The point I'm making is that homosexuality is a normal occurrence in many animal species. In many species it is extremely common.

Not, its a natural occurrence. Something that occurs in less than 10% of a population is not a normal occurrence. It statically falls outside the trend, by wide margins.

Is homosexuality deviant?

By definition, yes.

In many species that is not the case.

In the many species, is said homosexual traits greater than 50% of the sample size? How about 40%? 30%? If the answer is no to any of those, you are going to have a hard time pitching it as "normal".

Is it abnormal?

By definition, yes.

No it is common throughout the animal kingdom.

By occurrence, not by frequency. Stating something happens as "natural" has firmly grounded roots. Stating something "Can be expected" is a true statement to a sample size. Calling infrequent-to-rare pairings "common" pushes an agenda. To wit, if in the course of a week, I eat six days worth of cereal, and one day of eggs and bacon, calling such an eggs and bacon occurrence "common" is simply not true. While it can be expected, its vast minority to the rest of the days, and is objectively uncommon.


Is it aberrant?

By definition, yes.

Homosexuality is extremely common and in some species is practiced by a majority of the population.

Citation, please. I am not familiar with any specie on the planet in which a majority of its members are found in same sex pairings.

Did you read the link?

Here are some more examples of animals displaying high levels of homosexuality.

http://forums.sherdog.com...
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/11/2016 6:51:40 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.
Homosexuality is common in many animal species.
http://www.news-medical.net...
More specifically, about 11% of Americans report some same sex sexual attraction, with 8% having same-sex behaviour. [https://kinseyinstitute.org...] So this isn't an insignificant minority. If you visited a packed church, it wouldn't have just one closet gay parishioner hiding down the back. Every pew and one in three traditional familes would contain someone who'd felt attraction to someone of the same sex -- and acted on it.

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?
And in particular, why are conservative American Christians vilifying others for what they themselves are doing?

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.
But not normal or healthy to lie about it.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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6/11/2016 7:00:36 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 6:51:17 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:48:38 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:36:43 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:01:48 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.



Natural. Not normal.

Homosexuality occurs in an incredibly slim portion of the population of various species, the norm, as an established standard or average, is heterosexuality.

The point I'm making is that homosexuality is a normal occurrence in many animal species. In many species it is extremely common.

Not, its a natural occurrence. Something that occurs in less than 10% of a population is not a normal occurrence. It statically falls outside the trend, by wide margins.

Is homosexuality deviant?

By definition, yes.

In many species that is not the case.

In the many species, is said homosexual traits greater than 50% of the sample size? How about 40%? 30%? If the answer is no to any of those, you are going to have a hard time pitching it as "normal".

Is it abnormal?

By definition, yes.

No it is common throughout the animal kingdom.

By occurrence, not by frequency. Stating something happens as "natural" has firmly grounded roots. Stating something "Can be expected" is a true statement to a sample size. Calling infrequent-to-rare pairings "common" pushes an agenda. To wit, if in the course of a week, I eat six days worth of cereal, and one day of eggs and bacon, calling such an eggs and bacon occurrence "common" is simply not true. While it can be expected, its vast minority to the rest of the days, and is objectively uncommon.


Is it aberrant?

By definition, yes.

Homosexuality is extremely common and in some species is practiced by a majority of the population.

Citation, please. I am not familiar with any specie on the planet in which a majority of its members are found in same sex pairings.

Did you read the link?

Here are some more examples of animals displaying high levels of homosexuality.

http://forums.sherdog.com...

Yes, I did, and no where does it state that in any given specie more than 50% of its population practices homosexuality. A large percentage of the planet's specie contain homosexuals, sure, but nothing indicating a majority of its population does so as your statement asserts.

Secondly, from your own link, it states that there are approximately 1.5K give or take specie known to have practiced homosexuality, but there are some odd 8.4 million specie on the planet.

That still makes such uncommon or rare.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/11/2016 7:03:21 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 6:51:40 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.
Homosexuality is common in many animal species.
http://www.news-medical.net...
More specifically, about 11% of Americans report some same sex sexual attraction, with 8% having same-sex behaviour. [https://kinseyinstitute.org...] So this isn't an insignificant minority. If you visited a packed church, it wouldn't have just one closet gay parishioner hiding down the back. Every pew and one in three traditional familes would contain someone who'd felt attraction to someone of the same sex -- and acted on it.

That's true. Many Christians hide their homosexual tendencies or those of family members.

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?
And in particular, why are conservative American Christians vilifying others for what they themselves are doing?

I doubt the people condemning homosexuality actually engage in homosexual acts but it's likely many have homosexual tendencies and take an aggressive stance condemning it to try and suppress their natural desires.
It's understandable as they have been indoctrinated into belief in a barbaric false religion that condemns homosexuality and bought up in a homophobic culture. Their hate may even be from embarrassment and shame for their own thoughts and desires and maybe a way to convince themselves they don't actually have homosexual tendencies.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.
But not normal or healthy to lie about it.

Agree.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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6/11/2016 7:23:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 7:00:36 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/11/2016 6:51:17 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:48:38 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:36:43 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:01:48 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.



Natural. Not normal.

Homosexuality occurs in an incredibly slim portion of the population of various species, the norm, as an established standard or average, is heterosexuality.

The point I'm making is that homosexuality is a normal occurrence in many animal species. In many species it is extremely common.

Not, its a natural occurrence. Something that occurs in less than 10% of a population is not a normal occurrence. It statically falls outside the trend, by wide margins.

Is homosexuality deviant?

By definition, yes.

In many species that is not the case.

In the many species, is said homosexual traits greater than 50% of the sample size? How about 40%? 30%? If the answer is no to any of those, you are going to have a hard time pitching it as "normal".

Is it abnormal?

By definition, yes.

No it is common throughout the animal kingdom.

By occurrence, not by frequency. Stating something happens as "natural" has firmly grounded roots. Stating something "Can be expected" is a true statement to a sample size. Calling infrequent-to-rare pairings "common" pushes an agenda. To wit, if in the course of a week, I eat six days worth of cereal, and one day of eggs and bacon, calling such an eggs and bacon occurrence "common" is simply not true. While it can be expected, its vast minority to the rest of the days, and is objectively uncommon.


Is it aberrant?

By definition, yes.

Homosexuality is extremely common and in some species is practiced by a majority of the population.

Citation, please. I am not familiar with any specie on the planet in which a majority of its members are found in same sex pairings.

Did you read the link?

Here are some more examples of animals displaying high levels of homosexuality.

http://forums.sherdog.com...

Yes, I did, and no where does it state that in any given specie more than 50% of its population practices homosexuality. A large percentage of the planet's specie contain homosexuals, sure, but nothing indicating a majority of its population does so as your statement asserts.

It mentions Dwarf chimpanzees. Read it again maybe you missed it.

Secondly, from your own link, it states that there are approximately 1.5K give or take specie known to have practiced homosexuality, but there are some odd 8.4 million specie on the planet.

That still makes such uncommon or rare.

There are many species of animals where studies of sexual behaviour have yet to be carried out. You need to provide evidence of a far greater number of species showing solely heterosexual tendencies than show both homosexual and heterosexual tendencies to prove its rare among animal species to exhibit homosexual tendencies.

Read ruv's link showing 11% of Americans feel same sex attraction. That is certainly a significant minority.

Your interpretation of the word normal would allow almost anything be termed abnormal. A minority of the population is male so do you consider male humans abnormal because they make up a lower percentage of the population?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/11/2016 7:44:32 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 7:03:21 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 6:51:40 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?
And in particular, why are conservative American Christians vilifying others for what they themselves are doing?
I doubt the people condemning homosexuality actually engage in homosexual acts
Except for, let's see.. Lonnie Frisbee [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Billy James Hargis [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Jimmy Swaggart [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Roy Clements [https://en.wikipedia.org...], John Paulk [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Paul Crouch [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Ted Haggard [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Paul Barnes [https://en.wikipedia.org...(pastor)], Lonnie Latham [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Tony Alamo [https://en.wikipedia.org...], George Alan Rekers [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and Eddie L. Long [https://en.wikipedia.org...].

Aside from these dozen high profile, rabidly anti-homosexual Evangelical pastors who are mostly known to have had, or in a few cases, strongly suspected to have had, homosexual relationships, there's hardly any hypocrisy behind the pulpit at all, so of course it's not in the Christian conservative pews either.
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/11/2016 8:07:35 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Natural and normal isn't really the issue. Homosexuality is a symptom of idolatry.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Fly
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6/11/2016 8:08:55 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 7:44:32 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 7:03:21 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 6:51:40 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?
And in particular, why are conservative American Christians vilifying others for what they themselves are doing?
I doubt the people condemning homosexuality actually engage in homosexual acts
Except for, let's see.. Lonnie Frisbee [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Billy James Hargis [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Jimmy Swaggart [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Roy Clements [https://en.wikipedia.org...], John Paulk [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Paul Crouch [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Ted Haggard [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Paul Barnes [https://en.wikipedia.org...(pastor)], Lonnie Latham [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Tony Alamo [https://en.wikipedia.org...], George Alan Rekers [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and Eddie L. Long [https://en.wikipedia.org...].

Aside from these dozen high profile, rabidly anti-homosexual Evangelical pastors who are mostly known to have had, or in a few cases, strongly suspected to have had, homosexual relationships, there's hardly any hypocrisy behind the pulpit at all, so of course it's not in the Christian conservative pews either.

I can only imagine that it comes from a place of intense self-loathing and shame, rather than a place of "I can do this, but you cannot." The fact that they never confess it before they are caught, however, does make them moral cowards.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/11/2016 8:14:02 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
It's totally perverse too, and if you can't see that, I don't care to argue about it.

Sexual Immorality in general, be it homosexual or otherwise, is a terrible thing. Sadly, people in today's culture have been conditioned to believe that it is a non-existent thing outside of non-consensual sex.

It's so harmful, and the people who take part in it are being reckless and self centered.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Fatihah
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6/11/2016 8:14:53 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.
Response: There is no such thing as a homosexual animal as no animal rejects the opposite sex. Secondly, it is natural, since homosexual sex is based on lust, not love. So it is wrong, whether natural or not because just like an animal, it is sex based on satisfying one's own personal desire to receive affection or in one word lust. Not out of love.
RuvDraba
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6/11/2016 8:17:08 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 5:01:48 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Just because something is abnormal or irregular, that doesn't in of it self make it immoral.
I strongly agree, FJ. It's like saying red hair or albinism are immoral. However, there are indeed some species in which homosexual sex is so frequent you can comfortably call it common. Two examples that leap instantly to mind are fruit flies and Bonobo apes.

Male fruit flies will attempt to mate with either sex of their species. it seems that they don't normally exercise a strong sense of sexual differentiation, so if you put all male fruit flies together in a jar, they'll hump each other at whim. Put them in a jar with an equal number of females, and they'll throw a trio of legs over either a male or a female on about a 50:50 ratio. :) Just as interestingly, fruit fly homosexuality can be turned on or off either with drugs or genetic manipulation. [https://www.sciencedaily.com...] So this seems to suggest that they can tell the difference, but the synapses that care don't fire unless you make them. :)

Bonobo apes are fascinating too. Most of their sex is non-reproductive and sexually they do pretty much everything humans do -- oral sex, anal sex, manual genital stimulation, procreative sex, and pre-ejaculatory withdrawal. Pretty much all bonobos have some sort of sexual interaction with all others in a troupe, and engage in all forms of incest, except mothers with sons. When they find food, they're renowned for having Roman-style orgies before sharing and apportioning it, and scientists working with Bonobos can't get them to take tests until they engage in what's called a 'Bonobo handshake' -- which is a friendly greeting requiring you to fondle their genitals. Bonobos get hurt and offended if you don't do it, and refuse to recognise you socially unless you show the proper respect. :p [https://en.wikipedia.org...]

You might already know that along with chimpanzees, Bonobo apes are humans' nearest relatives, sharing about the same genetic distance as chimps. I'm not suggesting that genetic predispositions for Bonobo sexuality are the same as any human genetic sexual predispositions, but it's interesting to see how big the spread of sexual variation there is among our nearest kin.

There's also a lot of sexual variation among humans. There's a tribe in Papua New Guinea for example, in which for religious reasons, all males engage in homosexual sex some of the time, even if they're not normally same-sex attracted. Another group of people in Indonesia recognise five genders -- all of which are considered normal. (Poke me if interested and I'll chase you some links.) So apparently we're capable of a big range of socially-driven sexual diversity too.

Life's complex! :D
Chloe8
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6/11/2016 8:19:51 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 7:44:32 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 7:03:21 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 6:51:40 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?
And in particular, why are conservative American Christians vilifying others for what they themselves are doing?
I doubt the people condemning homosexuality actually engage in homosexual acts
Except for, let's see.. Lonnie Frisbee [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Billy James Hargis [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Jimmy Swaggart [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Roy Clements [https://en.wikipedia.org...], John Paulk [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Paul Crouch [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Ted Haggard [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Paul Barnes [https://en.wikipedia.org...(pastor)], Lonnie Latham [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Tony Alamo [https://en.wikipedia.org...], George Alan Rekers [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and Eddie L. Long [https://en.wikipedia.org...].

Aside from these dozen high profile, rabidly anti-homosexual Evangelical pastors who are mostly known to have had, or in a few cases, strongly suspected to have had, homosexual relationships, there's hardly any hypocrisy behind the pulpit at all, so of course it's not in the Christian conservative pews either.

Yes some American religious conservatives condemn homosexuality while engaging in it themselves. I was pointing out that the majority of people who condemn homosexuality don't engage in homosexual acts. I don't think it's fair to tarnish them all as hypocrites when only a small minority are actually hypocrites. In reality the majority of people who oppose homosexuality do so because they have been tricked into believing a religion that claims homosexuality is wrong.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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6/11/2016 8:24:11 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:14:02 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's totally perverse too, and if you can't see that, I don't care to argue about it.

Please explain why it's perverse for someone to act on natural instincts with another consenting adult?

Sexual Immorality in general, be it homosexual or otherwise, is a terrible thing. Sadly, people in today's culture have been conditioned to believe that it is a non-existent thing outside of non-consensual sex.

It's so harmful, and the people who take part in it are being reckless and self centered.

Why is sex between consenting adults who are not in a relationship with someone else harmful?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
FaustianJustice
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6/11/2016 8:27:33 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.



Natural. Not normal.

Homosexuality occurs in an incredibly slim portion of the population of various species, the norm, as an established standard or average, is heterosexuality.

The point I'm making is that homosexuality is a normal occurrence in many animal species. In many species it is extremely common.

Not, its a natural occurrence. Something that occurs in less than 10% of a population is not a normal occurrence. It statically falls outside the trend, by wide margins.

Is homosexuality deviant?

By definition, yes.

In many species that is not the case.

In the many species, is said homosexual traits greater than 50% of the sample size? How about 40%? 30%? If the answer is no to any of those, you are going to have a hard time pitching it as "normal".

Is it abnormal?

By definition, yes.

No it is common throughout the animal kingdom.

By occurrence, not by frequency. Stating something happens as "natural" has firmly grounded roots. Stating something "Can be expected" is a true statement to a sample size. Calling infrequent-to-rare pairings "common" pushes an agenda. To wit, if in the course of a week, I eat six days worth of cereal, and one day of eggs and bacon, calling such an eggs and bacon occurrence "common" is simply not true. While it can be expected, its vast minority to the rest of the days, and is objectively uncommon.


Is it aberrant?

By definition, yes.

Homosexuality is extremely common and in some species is practiced by a majority of the population.

Citation, please. I am not familiar with any specie on the planet in which a majority of its members are found in same sex pairings.

Did you read the link?

Here are some more examples of animals displaying high levels of homosexuality.

http://forums.sherdog.com...

Yes, I did, and no where does it state that in any given specie more than 50% of its population practices homosexuality. A large percentage of the planet's specie contain homosexuals, sure, but nothing indicating a majority of its population does so as your statement asserts.

It mentions Dwarf chimpanzees. Read it again maybe you missed it.

It states that a majority of said chimps that practice homosexuality practice it throughout there life, not that a majority of the specie is homosexual.

Secondly, from your own link, it states that there are approximately 1.5K give or take specie known to have practiced homosexuality, but there are some odd 8.4 million specie on the planet.

That still makes such uncommon or rare.

There are many species of animals where studies of sexual behaviour have yet to be carried out. You need to provide evidence of a far greater number of species showing solely heterosexual tendencies than show both homosexual and heterosexual tendencies to prove its rare among animal species to exhibit homosexual tendencies.

You have that backwards. I am not the one claiming something to be "common", ergo, it would be incumbent upon YOU to demonstrate out -frequently- it is found. As it stands, all your statistics point to less than 10% in any given specie that practices it.

Read ruv's link showing 11% of Americans feel same sex attraction. That is certainly a significant minority.

I a agree, its a significant minority, however its still still a minority outnumbered by 10 to 1, give or take.

Your interpretation of the word normal would allow almost anything be termed abnormal.

A minority of the population is male so do you consider male humans abnormal because they make up a lower percentage of the population?

Statistically, if you were to draw... say... 2 people from the sample size, randomly, what would you get? I contend that you would roughly draw one female for every male. Perhaps you would get a string of one or the other, however were the sexuality instead be the selection point, it would be much more infrequent of a draw. The definition of the word is not "mine", it was literally out of the dictionary. It would tough to call a near 50 50 draw as having a standard to it.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
RuvDraba
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6/11/2016 8:28:25 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:19:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 7:44:32 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 7:03:21 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 6:51:40 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?
And in particular, why are conservative American Christians vilifying others for what they themselves are doing?
I doubt the people condemning homosexuality actually engage in homosexual acts
Except for, let's see.. Lonnie Frisbee [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Billy James Hargis [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Jimmy Swaggart [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Roy Clements [https://en.wikipedia.org...], John Paulk [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Paul Crouch [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Ted Haggard [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Paul Barnes [https://en.wikipedia.org...(pastor)], Lonnie Latham [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Tony Alamo [https://en.wikipedia.org...], George Alan Rekers [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and Eddie L. Long [https://en.wikipedia.org...].
Aside from these dozen high profile, rabidly anti-homosexual Evangelical pastors who are mostly known to have had, or in a few cases, strongly suspected to have had, homosexual relationships, there's hardly any hypocrisy behind the pulpit at all, so of course it's not in the Christian conservative pews either.
Yes some American religious conservatives condemn homosexuality while engaging in it themselves. I was pointing out that the majority of people who condemn homosexuality don't engage in homosexual acts.
Yes, because in Christian cultures, most people don't. However, in some cultures, most people do, so there's a sociological dimension to sexual expression, and not just a biological one, and there's also well-documented fluidity in preference (especially among women, or over time), and practice (depending on the culture.)

Regardless, there's still hypocrisy in any congregation that talks about same-sex attracted people as 'them'. It's us -- the people you're sharing a pew with, if you're a church-goer. It's your brother, your uncle, your mother, your younger sister, your next-door neighbour. It's in every extended family. Until conservative Christians acknowledge that, they're acting blind, ignorant, cruel and unjust. And the degree to which they feel doctrinally impelled to deny it is evidenced by the extraordinary number of conservative preachers caught out in hypocrisy.
Chloe8
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6/11/2016 8:32:27 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:14:53 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.
Response: There is no such thing as a homosexual animal as no animal rejects the opposite sex. Secondly, it is natural, since homosexual sex is based on lust, not love. So it is wrong, whether natural or not because just like an animal, it is sex based on satisfying one's own personal desire to receive affection or in one word lust. Not out of love.

Some sheep are exclusively homosexual.

https://www.newscientist.com...

The reality is sex always needs an element of lust. If people wanted to show love for each other there are many mechanisms of doing so other than having sex.

Why did Allah create homosexual sheep if he dislikes homosexuality?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Rukado
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6/11/2016 8:39:01 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

Okay, you want to argue that homos are like animals who lick up their vomit and eat their young. Still, I've never heard of animal with a same-sex preference (a dumb, confused animal paring up with a same-sex animal is not the same as a same-sex preference). You totalitarian perverts are embarrassing in how far you want to stretch things.

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?

To demonstrate his wrath.
Chloe8
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6/11/2016 8:40:24 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:28:25 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 8:19:51 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 7:44:32 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 7:03:21 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 6:51:40 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?
And in particular, why are conservative American Christians vilifying others for what they themselves are doing?
I doubt the people condemning homosexuality actually engage in homosexual acts
Except for, let's see.. Lonnie Frisbee [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Billy James Hargis [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Jimmy Swaggart [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Roy Clements [https://en.wikipedia.org...], John Paulk [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Paul Crouch [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Ted Haggard [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Paul Barnes [https://en.wikipedia.org...(pastor)], Lonnie Latham [https://en.wikipedia.org...], Tony Alamo [https://en.wikipedia.org...], George Alan Rekers [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and Eddie L. Long [https://en.wikipedia.org...].
Aside from these dozen high profile, rabidly anti-homosexual Evangelical pastors who are mostly known to have had, or in a few cases, strongly suspected to have had, homosexual relationships, there's hardly any hypocrisy behind the pulpit at all, so of course it's not in the Christian conservative pews either.
Yes some American religious conservatives condemn homosexuality while engaging in it themselves. I was pointing out that the majority of people who condemn homosexuality don't engage in homosexual acts.
Yes, because in Christian cultures, most people don't. However, in some cultures, most people do, so there's a sociological dimension to sexual expression, and not just a biological one, and there's also well-documented fluidity in preference (especially among women, or over time), and practice (depending on the culture.)

Regardless, there's still hypocrisy in any congregation that talks about same-sex attracted people as 'them'. It's us -- the people you're sharing a pew with, if you're a church-goer. It's your brother, your uncle, your mother, your younger sister, your next-door neighbour. It's in every extended family. Until conservative Christians acknowledge that, they're acting blind, ignorant, cruel and unjust. And the degree to which they feel doctrinally impelled to deny it is evidenced by the extraordinary number of conservative preachers caught out in hypocrisy.

I agree Christians are ignorant when they condemn homosexuality. They are just as likely to be related to a homosexual as anyone else.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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6/11/2016 8:54:50 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:27:33 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality? Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality. Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.



Natural. Not normal.

Homosexuality occurs in an incredibly slim portion of the population of various species, the norm, as an established standard or average, is heterosexuality.

The point I'm making is that homosexuality is a normal occurrence in many animal species. In many species it is extremely common.

Not, its a natural occurrence. Something that occurs in less than 10% of a population is not a normal occurrence. It statically falls outside the trend, by wide margins.

Is homosexuality deviant?

By definition, yes.

In many species that is not the case.

In the many species, is said homosexual traits greater than 50% of the sample size? How about 40%? 30%? If the answer is no to any of those, you are going to have a hard time pitching it as "normal".

Is it abnormal?

By definition, yes.

No it is common throughout the animal kingdom.

By occurrence, not by frequency. Stating something happens as "natural" has firmly grounded roots. Stating something "Can be expected" is a true statement to a sample size. Calling infrequent-to-rare pairings "common" pushes an agenda. To wit, if in the course of a week, I eat six days worth of cereal, and one day of eggs and bacon, calling such an eggs and bacon occurrence "common" is simply not true. While it can be expected, its vast minority to the rest of the days, and is objectively uncommon.


Is it aberrant?

By definition, yes.

Homosexuality is extremely common and in some species is practiced by a majority of the population.

Citation, please. I am not familiar with any specie on the planet in which a majority of its members are found in same sex pairings.

Did you read the link?

Here are some more examples of animals displaying high levels of homosexuality.

http://forums.sherdog.com...

Yes, I did, and no where does it state that in any given specie more than 50% of its population practices homosexuality. A large percentage of the planet's specie contain homosexuals, sure, but nothing indicating a majority of its population does so as your statement asserts.

It mentions Dwarf chimpanzees. Read it again maybe you missed it.

It states that a majority of said chimps that practice homosexuality practice it throughout there life, not that a majority of the specie is homosexual.

You must have missed this sentence;

"The entire species is bisexual."

Read it again if you don't believe me.

Secondly, from your own link, it states that there are approximately 1.5K give or take specie known to have practiced homosexuality, but there are some odd 8.4 million specie on the planet.

That still makes such uncommon or rare.

There are many species of animals where studies of sexual behaviour have yet to be carried out. You need to provide evidence of a far greater number of species showing solely heterosexual tendencies than show both homosexual and heterosexual tendencies to prove its rare among animal species to exhibit homosexual tendencies.


You have that backwards. I am not the one claiming something to be "common", ergo, it would be incumbent upon YOU to demonstrate out -frequently- it is found. As it stands, all your statistics point to less than 10% in any given specie that practices it.

Dwarf chimpanzees are a bisexual species. The list of animals I showed you contained the following animals where over 10% of animals engaged in homosexual behaviour;

1. Western Gulls.
2. Guinan coc k of the rock.
3. King penguin
4. Mallard duck.
5. Walrus.
6. American Bison.
7. Japanese Macaque.
8. Black Swan.
9. Giraffe.
10. Bottlenose dolphin.
11. Bonobo monkey (dwarf chimpanzee).
12. Bat.

Read ruv's link showing 11% of Americans feel same sex attraction. That is certainly a significant minority.

I a agree, its a significant minority, however its still still a minority outnumbered by 10 to 1, give or take.

So you consider it abnormal to watch a certain tv show when 9% of the total population watch it even if the show in question has 60% of all viewers watching tv at that particular time?

Your interpretation of the word normal would allow almost anything be termed abnormal.

A minority of the population is male so do you consider male humans abnormal because they make up a lower percentage of the population?

Statistically, if you were to draw... say... 2 people from the sample size, randomly, what would you get? I contend that you would roughly draw one female for every male. Perhaps you would get a string of one or the other, however were the sexuality instead be the selection point, it would be much more infrequent of a draw. The definition of the word is not "mine", it was literally out of the dictionary. It would tough to call a near 50 50 draw as having a standard to it.

It shows however it's wrong to call something abnormal merely because it's a minority.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
FaustianJustice
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6/11/2016 8:55:04 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:17:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/11/2016 5:01:48 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
Just because something is abnormal or irregular, that doesn't in of it self make it immoral.
I strongly agree, FJ. It's like saying red hair or albinism are immoral. However, there are indeed some species in which homosexual sex is so frequent you can comfortably call it common. Two examples that leap instantly to mind are fruit flies and Bonobo apes.

Male fruit flies will attempt to mate with either sex of their species. it seems that they don't normally exercise a strong sense of sexual differentiation, so if you put all male fruit flies together in a jar, they'll hump each other at whim. Put them in a jar with an equal number of females, and they'll throw a trio of legs over either a male or a female on about a 50:50 ratio. :) Just as interestingly, fruit fly homosexuality can be turned on or off either with drugs or genetic manipulation. [https://www.sciencedaily.com...] So this seems to suggest that they can tell the difference, but the synapses that care don't fire unless you make them. :)

Bonobo apes are fascinating too. Most of their sex is non-reproductive and sexually they do pretty much everything humans do -- oral sex, anal sex, manual genital stimulation, procreative sex, and pre-ejaculatory withdrawal. Pretty much all bonobos have some sort of sexual interaction with all others in a troupe, and engage in all forms of incest, except mothers with sons. When they find food, they're renowned for having Roman-style orgies before sharing and apportioning it, and scientists working with Bonobos can't get them to take tests until they engage in what's called a 'Bonobo handshake' -- which is a friendly greeting requiring you to fondle their genitals. Bonobos get hurt and offended if you don't do it, and refuse to recognise you socially unless you show the proper respect. :p [https://en.wikipedia.org...]

You might already know that along with chimpanzees, Bonobo apes are humans' nearest relatives, sharing about the same genetic distance as chimps. I'm not suggesting that genetic predispositions for Bonobo sexuality are the same as any human genetic sexual predispositions, but it's interesting to see how big the spread of sexual variation there is among our nearest kin.

There's also a lot of sexual variation among humans. There's a tribe in Papua New Guinea for example, in which for religious reasons, all males engage in homosexual sex some of the time, even if they're not normally same-sex attracted. Another group of people in Indonesia recognise five genders -- all of which are considered normal. (Poke me if interested and I'll chase you some links.) So apparently we're capable of a big range of socially-driven sexual diversity too.

Life's complex! :D

While I have no doubt as to the veracity of what you put forth, and agree that homosexuality can be found in the animal kingdom across a wide specie, when we look at human sexual relations regarding mates and mate selection, which is for purposes of this thread what I am thinking is the point, how many of those specie keep a same sex mate, or outside tribal/herd "formality" put forth an effort to engage primarily with the same gender?

I can appreciate that herd mentality is quite different among animals, is what it seems (and that is the operative word) is that some variety of obligatory practices are being held as an analogy to human pairing, and their subsequent relationship to religion and morality. To wit, I don't find the examinations delivered by a doctor to be of a homosexual nature, I am sure we can agree at some point in life it sort of becomes mandatory for specific reasons. That is why I am loathe to call herd ritual an act of sexuality: it seems compulsory. Not a demonstration of individual predilection.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Chloe8
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6/11/2016 9:00:09 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:39:01 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

Okay, you want to argue that homos are like animals who lick up their vomit and eat their young. Still, I've never heard of animal with a same-sex preference (a dumb, confused animal paring up with a same-sex animal is not the same as a same-sex preference). You totalitarian perverts are embarrassing in how far you want to stretch things.

No my argument has nothing to do with that. How did you reach that conclusion? Why Is an animal acting on natural instincts dumb or confused? I'm not a totalitarian pervert, I challenge you to provide evidence of your false claim.

If you didn't know sheep display homosexual preferences.

https://www.newscientist.com...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?

To demonstrate his wrath.

How does that demonstrate his wrath?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
RuvDraba
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6/11/2016 9:09:48 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:55:04 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
how many of those specie keep a same sex mate, or outside tribal/herd "formality" put forth an effort to engage primarily with the same gender?

I think you've raised a significant distinction, FJ. There are the people we live with, the people we have sex with, and the people we reproduce with -- and while for many of us they're the same people, depending on culture they're not. A lot of economically-arranged marriages involve some reproduction but not necessarily a lot of sex. Some marriages involve not much living together either.

And even European Christian traditions have varied about this. Early Christian writings are fully of married priests, brothels exclusive to clergy, devout Christian travelers writing about which lands have the most willing women, communal bath-houses, and pre-marital 'bundling'. Despite homosexuality being a capital offence, Renaissance Italy was renowed for gay middle-class men living together in "Don't ask/don't tell" relationships. (Links on any of these if interested.)

Back to topic, Christian doctrinal morality really focuses on marriage (life-pairings) and sex. Christian canon has a lot to say about both. It's just that what it says isn't very well-informed kind, just or even representative of actual Christian practice. And the least modern Christians can do is be well-informed both historically and sociologically, and stop lying to themselves about long traditions of chastity and heterosexual monogamy.
dsjpk5
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6/11/2016 9:25:00 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

Irrelevant. Unlike animals, we are rational souls who understand right from wrong.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?

He didn't. We I inherited our tendency to sin from our first parents. It was their freewill choice that brought defects in the world.

Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct

Irrelevant. See above.

. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality.

Wrong. See above.

Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.


Irrelevant. See above.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.

False.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Rukado
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6/11/2016 10:12:11 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 9:00:09 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Why Is an animal acting on natural instincts dumb or confused? I'm not a totalitarian pervert, I challenge you to provide evidence of your false claim.

Isn't instinct the very definition of dumb? You can act under thought (smart) or you can act under instinct (dumb). And, confused, yes, if the animal shows it doens't recognize the difference between a male and a female (which is relatively challenging the animal world, where both sexes may be nearly identical in appearance).

Totalitarian pervert - the only reason you're so desperately trying to prove that homosexuality is normal and natural is to rationalize your total intolerance of people who recognize there's something wrong when the brain and the sex organs aren't in tune.

If you didn't know sheep display homosexual preferences.

According to your source, "they are the only animal where the males may naturally express exclusively gay sexual preferences." So, you agree that if there homo animals, the only homo animals are sheep? After you agree to this, I'll provide a link showing that there aren't sheep with a same-sex preference.

How does that demonstrate his wrath?

God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction... God made homos for Hell. And, even if you don't believe in a righteous God, but a perverted god, where's the love in making people whose brain and sex organs aren't in tune, and where, where they can't have children (while loving the other parent), and where half the population will always think of them as sick.
Chloe8
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6/11/2016 10:48:18 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 9:25:00 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 4:53:39 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Many people claim homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will, whichever god (or God's) it is they worship. It's true that their scripture often backs up their claims but there are numerous issues with their claims that their god disapproves of homosexuality.

Homosexuality is common in many animal species.

Irrelevant. Unlike animals, we are rational souls who understand right from wrong.

If homosexuality was wrong in the eyes of a god it would not happen.

http://www.news-medical.net...

Why would god create homosexual animals if he dislikes homosexuality?

He didn't. We I inherited our tendency to sin from our first parents. It was their freewill choice that brought defects in the world.

God planned the fall as he is omniscient so must have known it was inevitable when he created Satan, Adam and Eve but still chose to create them. Even after Satan tempted Adam and Eve he could have avoided the fall by destroying Satan, Adam and Eve and creating better creations with less flaws.

Theists accept animals act on instinct so are unable to make a choice to have homosexual sex and merely act on instinct

Irrelevant. See above.

God wanted the fall and if that was the cause of homosexuality then obviously God wanted homosexual behaviour. If God didn't like homosexuality then it would not happen.

. This proves if a god exists it wants homosexuality.

Wrong. See above.


Clearly many animals (including some humans) have a natural desire for homosexual behaviour.


Irrelevant. See above.

Therefore homosexuality is natural and normal throughout the animal kingdom.

False.

https://www.newscientist.com...

How do you explain this then?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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6/11/2016 11:11:49 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 10:12:11 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/11/2016 9:00:09 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Why Is an animal acting on natural instincts dumb or confused? I'm not a totalitarian pervert, I challenge you to provide evidence of your false claim.

Isn't instinct the very definition of dumb? You can act under thought (smart) or you can act under instinct (dumb). And, confused, yes, if the animal shows it doens't recognize the difference between a male and a female (which is relatively challenging the animal world, where both sexes may be nearly identical in appearance).

False claim. Definition of dumb;

lacking intelligence or good judgment; stupid; dull-witted.

Many animals know the difference between genders through smell. Sight is not the only way of noticing. Animals like dogs, cattle and sheep can smell a female to see if its on heat to know it is likely to be receptive to sexual intercourse.

Often natural instincts are essential to survival. It's a natural instincts for most people to desire heterosexual relationships and have children. Without these desires the species would go extinct. If you actually think about it there is no real benefit to having children, you could even just adopt them yet the majority of people want to reproduce.

Totalitarian pervert - the only reason you're so desperately trying to prove that homosexuality is normal and natural is to rationalize your total intolerance of people who recognize there's something wrong when the brain and the sex organs aren't in tune.

Definition of totalitarian;

A person advocating a totalitarian system of government.

I don't advocate that, I oppose totalitarianism.

One of numerous definitions of pervert and the one i assume you are trying to apply to me;

Distort or corrupt the original course, meaning, or state of (something).

Actually it's you who is the pervert as it is you who seeks to distort and corrupt the original course of the lives of homosexual people. It's me who is advocating letting people make their own choices and live their own lives.

If you didn't know sheep display homosexual preferences.

According to your source, "they are the only animal where the males may naturally express exclusively gay sexual preferences." So, you agree that if there homo animals, the only homo animals are sheep? After you agree to this, I'll provide a link showing that there aren't sheep with a same-sex preference.

Many animals engage in homosexual activity including intelligent ones like primates, dolphins and whales.

How does that demonstrate his wrath?

God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction... God made homos for Hell. And, even if you don't believe in a righteous God, but a perverted god, where's the love in making people whose brain and sex organs aren't in tune, and where, where they can't have children (while loving the other parent), and where half the population will always think of them as sick.

So you admit your evil god made people homosexual and then plans to torture them for eternity for being the way he created them. What a barbaric religion you have been tricked into believing.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.