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Why does Matthew lie about prayers?

Chloe8
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6/11/2016 8:05:05 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
The author of the gospel of Matthew makes the following claim;

Matthew 21:22

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Why did he lie? Obviously if he was influenced by God when writing his gospel he would have known belief in God does not ensure you will receive whatever you ask for in a prayer. It's well known God never answers any prayers and Christians who pray for an outcome are no more likely to receive it then non Christians who don't pray.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/11/2016 10:22:49 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
If you have faith and do not doubt... - Matthew

Meet that standard and then tell me again Matthew lied.
Chloe8
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6/11/2016 11:20:05 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 10:22:49 PM, Rukado wrote:
If you have faith and do not doubt... - Matthew

Meet that standard and then tell me again Matthew lied.

Are you claiming there has never been an unanswered prayer?

Why do Christians who pray to recover from terminal cancer die?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/12/2016 3:05:44 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:05:05 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The author of the gospel of Matthew makes the following claim;

Matthew 21:22

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Why did he lie? Obviously if he was influenced by God when writing his gospel he would have known belief in God does not ensure you will receive whatever you ask for in a prayer. It's well known God never answers any prayers and Christians who pray for an outcome are no more likely to receive it then non Christians who don't pray.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

The author did not write "If you believe IN GOD , you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
The statement can just as easily be interpreted as "If you believe that you will get what you ask for, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
It all depends on what people truly believe, not on what they CLAIM to believe.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/12/2016 3:18:37 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 11:20:05 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:22:49 PM, Rukado wrote:
If you have faith and do not doubt... - Matthew

Meet that standard and then tell me again Matthew lied.

Are you claiming there has never been an unanswered prayer?

Why do Christians who pray to recover from terminal cancer die?

Because death is part of life. People die whether they have a terminal illness or not.
Most believers do not truly believe without a shadow of doubt that they will be physically healed by some invisible character. They merely HOPE they MIGHT be physically healed. Their prayers are more of a pot luck request in desperation rather than a KNOWING with CERTAINTY that their request will definitely be answered.
Besides that, most of them believe that once they are dead they are "with God", and in that state they are no longer sick anyway but have eternal life.
Once dead they are 'resting in peace' and if Ecc 9:5 is true, they don't have a clue if they are dead or alive anyway. According to that scripture the dead know nothing.
Chloe8
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6/12/2016 4:34:43 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 3:18:37 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:20:05 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 10:22:49 PM, Rukado wrote:
If you have faith and do not doubt... - Matthew

Meet that standard and then tell me again Matthew lied.

Are you claiming there has never been an unanswered prayer?

Why do Christians who pray to recover from terminal cancer die?

Because death is part of life. People die whether they have a terminal illness or not.
Most believers do not truly believe without a shadow of doubt that they will be physically healed by some invisible character. They merely HOPE they MIGHT be physically healed. Their prayers are more of a pot luck request in desperation rather than a KNOWING with CERTAINTY that their request will definitely be answered.
Besides that, most of them believe that once they are dead they are "with God", and in that state they are no longer sick anyway but have eternal life.
Once dead they are 'resting in peace' and if Ecc 9:5 is true, they don't have a clue if they are dead or alive anyway. According to that scripture the dead know nothing.

The fact is prayers don't work. Either Matthew lied proving the bible is not the word of god or Matthew mistakenly thought prayers could be answered proving the bible is not the word of god. Either way this verse alone disproves Christianity unless Christians accept their god lies and gave false information to bible authors.
Chloe8
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6/12/2016 4:36:50 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 3:05:44 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/11/2016 8:05:05 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The author of the gospel of Matthew makes the following claim;

Matthew 21:22

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Why did he lie? Obviously if he was influenced by God when writing his gospel he would have known belief in God does not ensure you will receive whatever you ask for in a prayer. It's well known God never answers any prayers and Christians who pray for an outcome are no more likely to receive it then non Christians who don't pray.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

The author did not write "If you believe IN GOD , you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
The statement can just as easily be interpreted as "If you believe that you will get what you ask for, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
It all depends on what people truly believe, not on what they CLAIM to believe.

That's irrelevant. Prayer does not work even if someone believes they will get what they ask for.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,088
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6/12/2016 5:32:54 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 10:22:49 PM, Rukado wrote:
If you have faith and do not doubt... - Matthew

Meet that standard and then tell me again Matthew lied.

Peter Pan says the same thing about pixie dust and visiting Neverland. Believe, Rukado, believe harder!! ;-)

Basically, youre saying if prayer doesn't work it's a fault in the believer not prayer itself, and yet no one has been able to pray world peace into existence or world hunger out... Do you guys not really believe?! Slackers...
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Rukado
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6/12/2016 6:02:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 5:32:54 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Basically, youre saying if prayer doesn't work it's a fault in the believer not prayer itself, and yet no one has been able to pray world peace into existence or world hunger out... Do you guys not really believe?! Slackers...

No one with faith in God would pray for world peace. Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace, but to bring the sword. The Bible also says those who will not work should go hungry, so how is a prayer to end world hunger a prayer of faith?

God gives me what I ask for.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,088
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6/12/2016 6:21:34 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:02:06 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/12/2016 5:32:54 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Basically, youre saying if prayer doesn't work it's a fault in the believer not prayer itself, and yet no one has been able to pray world peace into existence or world hunger out... Do you guys not really believe?! Slackers...

No one with faith in God would pray for world peace. Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace, but to bring the sword. The Bible also says those who will not work should go hungry, so how is a prayer to end world hunger a prayer of faith?

God gives me what I ask for.

Children go hungry as well as adults. Are you advocating child labor?! At any rate, I'm sure we could imagine 1000's of things prayer would be helpful (if it worked) and these things have never happened. Not to mention, prayer has been shown to be no more helpful than not praying.

http://www.nytimes.com...
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Rukado
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6/12/2016 6:32:29 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:21:34 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Children go hungry as well as adults. Are you advocating child labor?! At any rate, I'm sure we could imagine 1000's of things prayer would be helpful (if it worked) and these things have never happened. Not to mention, prayer has been shown to be no more helpful than not praying.

The Bible condemns children to suffer for the sins of the parents. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. Or, if least, take it up with those worthless parents.

The vast majority of self-identified Christians are not Christians. And, so these prayer studies, if not for other reasons, are going to lose the data in the noise, so to speak. It's like Christians couples don't get divorces (period), but try to find evidence of that in Christian divorce statistics.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,088
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6/12/2016 6:49:39 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:32:29 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:21:34 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Children go hungry as well as adults. Are you advocating child labor?! At any rate, I'm sure we could imagine 1000's of things prayer would be helpful (if it worked) and these things have never happened. Not to mention, prayer has been shown to be no more helpful than not praying.

The Bible condemns children to suffer for the sins of the parents. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. Or, if least, take it up with those worthless parents.

So, prayer doesn't work for these kids because X. That is a concession that prayer doesn't work like Matthew claimed.

The vast majority of self-identified Christians are not Christians. And, so these prayer studies, if not for other reasons, are going to lose the data in the noise, so to speak. It's like Christians couples don't get divorces (period), but try to find evidence of that in Christian divorce statistics.

No true Scotsman...
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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6/12/2016 7:08:09 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:05:05 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The author of the gospel of Matthew makes the following claim;

Matthew 21:22

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Why did he lie?

It continues by:

""believing, you will receive."

He didn"t lie. But you seem to make false testimony and try to mislead people by cutting important parts away in your propaganda. I don"t see how anyone could trust to you after this.
Chloe8
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6/12/2016 10:20:38 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 7:08:09 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 6/11/2016 8:05:05 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The author of the gospel of Matthew makes the following claim;

Matthew 21:22

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Why did he lie?

It continues by:

""believing, you will receive."

He didn"t lie. But you seem to make false testimony and try to mislead people by cutting important parts away in your propaganda. I don"t see how anyone could trust to you after this.

So if I'm lying why do scientific studies show prayers have no measurable effect?

Juan Peron got every Argentinean to pray to God to cure his wife's illness but she still died.

The fact is believing in god and/or believing you will receive something when praying does not guarantee it will happen or make it more likely demonstrating Matthew either lied or he mistakenly thought that prayers worked. Either way this verse proves Matthew is not divinely influenced and is solely compiled by unenlightened 1st century humans.
sedevacantist
Posts: 37
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6/12/2016 11:00:26 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:05:05 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The author of the gospel of Matthew makes the following claim;

Matthew 21:22

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Why did he lie? Obviously if he was influenced by God when writing his gospel he would have known belief in God does not ensure you will receive whatever you ask for in a prayer. It's well known God never answers any prayers and Christians who pray for an outcome are no more likely to receive it then non Christians who don't pray.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

St. Matthew did not not lie. These are not even the words of St. Matthew, it is our Lord Jesus speaking. Have you examined the context of the passage? Jesus was not speaking to a group of people or a crowd following Him. Rather, He was speaking directly to the disciples. Observe the context from verse 20 to verse 22:

When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.

Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."


You may also want to note what is said by our Lord in verse 43:

Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

Therefore, Jesus is speaking to the disciples specifically, not to Christians in general. We were already given encouragement in St. Matthew chapter 7:
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

"Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"
"Reveal to the faithful the wolves which are demolishing the Lord's vineyard."
- Pope Clement XIII, Encyclical Christianae Reipublicae, 1766
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/12/2016 11:09:15 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 4:36:50 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 6/12/2016 3:05:44 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 6/11/2016 8:05:05 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The author of the gospel of Matthew makes the following claim;

Matthew 21:22

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Why did he lie? Obviously if he was influenced by God when writing his gospel he would have known belief in God does not ensure you will receive whatever you ask for in a prayer. It's well known God never answers any prayers and Christians who pray for an outcome are no more likely to receive it then non Christians who don't pray.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

The author did not write "If you believe IN GOD , you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
The statement can just as easily be interpreted as "If you believe that you will get what you ask for, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
It all depends on what people truly believe, not on what they CLAIM to believe.

That's irrelevant. Prayer does not work even if someone believes they will get what they ask for.

I agree that no supernatural entity answers prayers any better than Mother Nature or Father Time would if you asked them for something. However, apparently there is power in positive thinking and attitudes.
http://www.successconsciousness.com...

People who have positive attitudes and believe that they can and will achieve something or do their best to overcome some problem in their lives have a better chance at success than people who have negative attitudes.
No gods needed. Just positive attitudes and a belief that you can achieve the goals you set.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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6/12/2016 11:15:25 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 8:05:05 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The author of the gospel of Matthew makes the following claim;

Matthew 21:22

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Why did he lie? Obviously if he was influenced by God when writing his gospel he would have known belief in God does not ensure you will receive whatever you ask for in a prayer. It's well known God never answers any prayers and Christians who pray for an outcome are no more likely to receive it then non Christians who don't pray.

That is a ridiculous conclusion, even by atheist standards. The very speaker of the recorded passage in Matthew prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt." It didn't pass.

Likewise, the apostle Paul said, "There was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch. Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me." That thorn wasn't removed. And Paul knew full well that Jesus said, "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Skyangel
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6/12/2016 11:27:42 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:02:06 PM, Rukado wrote:

God gives me what I ask for.

No invisible character gives anyone anything.
Life gives all people things they like regardless of whether they ask anyone or not as well as things they do not like and don't ask for.
Skyangel
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6/12/2016 11:37:45 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:32:29 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:21:34 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Children go hungry as well as adults. Are you advocating child labor?! At any rate, I'm sure we could imagine 1000's of things prayer would be helpful (if it worked) and these things have never happened. Not to mention, prayer has been shown to be no more helpful than not praying.

The Bible condemns children to suffer for the sins of the parents. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. Or, if least, take it up with those worthless parents.

Obviously you have not been informed that God changed his mind about that.
Ezekiel 18:20 KJV
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

NLT
The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.

Deut 24:16 KJV
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

NLT
"Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes.
Rukado
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6/13/2016 4:32:39 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 11:37:45 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Obviously you have not been informed that God changed his mind about that.
Ezekiel 18:20 KJV
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

NLT
The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.

What from H3ll is a NLT?

God didn't change his mind. He's talking about another, even inf closely related, subject. See the previous verse, the son escapes judgement of the sins of the father in the son in righteous.
Rukado
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6/13/2016 4:38:10 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:49:39 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
No true Scotsman...

A Scotsman is defined by his nativity or citizenship. A christian is defined by his obedience to the Christ. So, no, Christians couples do not get divorced. Period. But, this fact is lost in the statistical noise of false Christian.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,088
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6/13/2016 4:47:22 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 4:38:10 AM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:49:39 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
No true Scotsman...

A Scotsman is defined by his nativity or citizenship. A christian is defined by his obedience to the Christ. So, no, Christians couples do not get divorced. Period. But, this fact is lost in the statistical noise of false Christian.

A Christian isn't defined by how well he or she follows Christian doctrine, but whether he or she accepts Jesus died for his or her sins.

My point stands.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skyangel
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6/13/2016 6:16:31 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 4:32:39 AM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/12/2016 11:37:45 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Obviously you have not been informed that God changed his mind about that.
Ezekiel 18:20 KJV
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

NLT
The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.

What from H3ll is a NLT?

New Living Translation

God didn't change his mind. He's talking about another, even inf closely related, subject. See the previous verse, the son escapes judgement of the sins of the father in the son in righteous.

The point is that all people suffer the consequences of their own actions. None are responsible for anyone elses actions.
Rukado
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6/13/2016 8:04:01 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 4:47:22 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
A Christian isn't defined by how well he or she follows Christian doctrine, but whether he or she accepts Jesus died for his or her sins.

My point stands.

Following doctrine isn't the issue, abstaining from sin is the issue:
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

The nature of someone who has accepted Jesus' sacrifice is to no longer practice sin: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
desmac
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6/13/2016 8:16:26 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 8:04:01 AM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/13/2016 4:47:22 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
A Christian isn't defined by how well he or she follows Christian doctrine, but whether he or she accepts Jesus died for his or her sins.

My point stands.

Following doctrine isn't the issue, abstaining from sin is the issue:
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

The nature of someone who has accepted Jesus' sacrifice is to no longer practice sin: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Divorce is a sin?
Rukado
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6/13/2016 8:21:26 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 8:16:26 AM, desmac wrote:
Divorce is a sin?

Breaking a marriage vow you made before God? Yep, that's a sin.
Becoming an adulterer by pursuing other relationships after a divorce? Yep, that's a sin.
Thinking a sin is determined by the world's standards? Not a sin, but still the error of a d@mned soul.
desmac
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6/13/2016 8:45:40 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 8:21:26 AM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/13/2016 8:16:26 AM, desmac wrote:
Divorce is a sin?

Breaking a marriage vow you made before God? Yep, that's a sin.
Becoming an adulterer by pursuing other relationships after a divorce? Yep, that's a sin.
Thinking a sin is determined by the world's standards? Not a sin, but still the error of a d@mned soul.

A woman is beaten by her husband, who also has affairs with women outside his marriage. The husband has obviously broken his marriage vows made before god. Is it still a sin for that woman to divorce him?
Rukado
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6/13/2016 8:56:46 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 8:45:40 AM, desmac wrote:
A woman is beaten by her husband, who also has affairs with women outside his marriage. The husband has obviously broken his marriage vows made before god. Is it still a sin for that woman to divorce him?

Is she meeting her marital obligations? Is she going to stay celibate?
desmac
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6/13/2016 9:01:08 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 8:56:46 AM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/13/2016 8:45:40 AM, desmac wrote:
A woman is beaten by her husband, who also has affairs with women outside his marriage. The husband has obviously broken his marriage vows made before god. Is it still a sin for that woman to divorce him?

Is she meeting her marital obligations? Is she going to stay celibate?

Assuming yes to both.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/13/2016 9:05:34 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 9:01:08 AM, desmac wrote:
At 6/13/2016 8:56:46 AM, Rukado wrote:
At 6/13/2016 8:45:40 AM, desmac wrote:
A woman is beaten by her husband, who also has affairs with women outside his marriage. The husband has obviously broken his marriage vows made before god. Is it still a sin for that woman to divorce him?

Is she meeting her marital obligations? Is she going to stay celibate?

Assuming yes to both.

Then maybe God won't count it a sin.