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Everlasting Life

dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?
Dogknox
Posts: 5,078
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6/12/2016 3:43:22 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?
dee-em You make no sense ... Christians already have eternal life!!!
John 6
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."


dee-em Christians believe the scriptures, always have!
Ignatius of Antioch is a CHRISTIAN!
Ignatius of Antioch was a STUDENT of the Apostle John!
He said.. A.D. 110
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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6/12/2016 7:23:39 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/12/2016 3:43:22 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?
dee-em You make no sense ... Christians already have eternal life!!!
John 6
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."


dee-em Christians believe the scriptures, always have!
Ignatius of Antioch is a CHRISTIAN!
Ignatius of Antioch was a STUDENT of the Apostle John!
He said.. A.D. 110
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
If you are eternal why don't you just top yourself and enjoy the paradise you claim will be yours.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
uncung
Posts: 3,457
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6/12/2016 7:37:23 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

That's why JIhadist always approach the death because they believe martyrdom is the instance and the fastest way to the paradise.
lightseeker
Posts: 1,029
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6/12/2016 7:53:14 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

human body is created to last a very long time. almost every cell in our body (excluding eyes) is replaced by newer cells every couple of years, meaning that every couple of years we get a completely new body.

so, if we knew what to eat and how to prevent illnesses ... we could live a pretty long time.

and about amassing sins: good deeds erase bad deeds (their punishments) and bad deeds erase good deeds (their rewards), also, Going to heaven is actually easier that going to hell because:

He that doeth good shall have ten times as much to his credit: He that doeth evil shall only be recompensed according to his evil: no wrong shall be done unto (any of) them.

so theists might use it to become better.
Willows
Posts: 2,066
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6/12/2016 8:54:18 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/12/2016 3:43:22 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?
dee-em You make no sense ... Christians already have eternal life!!!
John 6
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."


dee-em Christians believe the scriptures, always have!
Ignatius of Antioch is a CHRISTIAN!
Ignatius of Antioch was a STUDENT of the Apostle John!
He said.. A.D. 110
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Your response is consistent with most die-hard religious fanatics; the needle permanently stuck in the same groove playing the same thing over and over again. That is, avoiding the question and resorting to gibberish text taken from a clumsily edited book that has very little credibility.
The proposition was interesting and reasonable as was the question. If anyone cannot make any sense of it then what would it be reasonable to conclude what kind of intellect that person has?
CADupin
Posts: 10
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6/12/2016 9:57:08 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 6/12/2016 8:54:18 AM, Willows wrote:
At 6/12/2016 3:43:22 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?
dee-em You make no sense ... Christians already have eternal life!!!
John 6
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."


dee-em Christians believe the scriptures, always have!
Ignatius of Antioch is a CHRISTIAN!
Ignatius of Antioch was a STUDENT of the Apostle John!
He said.. A.D. 110
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Your response is consistent with most die-hard religious fanatics; the needle permanently stuck in the same groove playing the same thing over and over again. That is, avoiding the question and resorting to gibberish text taken from a clumsily edited book that has very little credibility.
The proposition was interesting and reasonable as was the question. If anyone cannot make any sense of it then what would it be reasonable to conclude what kind of intellect that person has?

The religio's like to keep a monopoly on "spiritual" eternal life. It is one of their biggest selling points
tarantula
Posts: 860
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6/12/2016 10:44:58 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
Eternal life seems like a fate worse than death to me, especially if it means being with the Biblical version of god.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/12/2016 11:00:16 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

Why would we when we don;t need it?

We already have Jehovah's promise that those who rely on him well get eternal life so why would we feel the need to rely on humans?


On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

The problem with that is that judgement is set for a particular time, and no-one can avoid or defer it.

The time for eventual and final judgement was set long ago, in the Garden of Eden, and there is absolutely no reason to change it.

What few people realise, and even the Bible only hints at, is that there are in fact two judgement times, though you could even stretch it to three, but two of them will be simultaneous anyway for the vast majority alive at the time anyway.

Usually when Christ or the Apostles referred to judgement they were referring to the final judgement, which will come after the final test at the end of Christ's reign as King in his father's place.

The other judgement, which will happen, or has happened, on death is only final for those few who fail it. A positive judgement there does nothing more than giving you a free pass to the resurrection and the run-up the the final test.

The "third" judgement will be at Armageddon, and is the same as the judgement at death, but many more will fail that judgement because of their refusal to listen to warnings and respond correctly. Those who pass that judgement will either survive Armageddon, or get an early resurrection, which is basically the same thing in effect.


What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

Why would anyone want to continue to live in this wicked system of things, despite it's short term advantages, when there is an immeasurably better one to come, in perfect peace and perfect health?

No, any with real faith in what Jehovah promises would happily take a "short cut" there is such were allowed.

There is far too much wrong with this world for any who truly care about their fellow man, or the rest of creation, to be truly happy having to live under it for any longer than Jehovah decrees.

Can you really watch with indifference when millions of people, and even more animals, are not properly cared for? When people suffer illness, deformity and death brought on them by Adam's sin?

If you can, then you are too callous for Jehovah's world anyway, your hearts and minds are too hardened to what is really going on, your world is too small.

After all, that is what worshipping Jehovah is all about in the end. Caring for every single part of his creation as much as he does. AFter all he sent his only begotten son, a unique and powerful spirit being, the only solo creation of his, with whom he had worked closely for many millennia, to become a feeble human, suffer and die solely for the sake of his creation, so yes of course he does.

For the sake of all his creation?

Yes, because the special purpose of humans was always to care for his creation on earth, so obviously we have to be cared for first, so that we can fulfil our role.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/12/2016 11:03:04 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 10:44:58 AM, tarantula wrote:
Eternal life seems like a fate worse than death to me, especially if it means being with the Biblical version of god.

That is because you have little or no understanding of either God or what such a life represents, and it seems that for some reason you are too bitter to learn properly.

Such a shame, but that is precisely the feeling that Satan conned Even into developing.

Why do I bother replying to someone so obviously embittered as you?

I have no idea other than, as I have said before, I go where the spirit shoves me.
tarantula
Posts: 860
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6/12/2016 11:05:43 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 11:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/12/2016 10:44:58 AM, tarantula wrote:
Eternal life seems like a fate worse than death to me, especially if it means being with the Biblical version of god.

That is because you have little or no understanding of either God or what such a life represents, and it seems that for some reason you are too bitter to learn properly.

Such a shame, but that is precisely the feeling that Satan conned Even into developing.

Why do I bother replying to someone so obviously embittered as you?

I have no idea other than, as I have said before, I go where the spirit shoves me.

It is hilarious you giving anyone advice, considering even your evil cult doesn't wish you to be in its gang anymore because of your 'sins'!
Dogknox
Posts: 5,078
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6/12/2016 1:44:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 8:54:18 AM, Willows wrote:
At 6/12/2016 3:43:22 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?
dee-em You make no sense ... Christians already have eternal life!!!
John 6
53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."


dee-em Christians believe the scriptures, always have!
Ignatius of Antioch is a CHRISTIAN!
Ignatius of Antioch was a STUDENT of the Apostle John!
He said.. A.D. 110
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Your response is consistent with most die-hard religious fanatics; the needle permanently stuck in the same groove playing the same thing over and over again. That is, avoiding the question and resorting to gibberish text taken from a clumsily edited book that has very little credibility.
The proposition was interesting and reasonable as was the question. If anyone cannot make any sense of it then what would it be reasonable to conclude what kind of intellect that person has?

Willows You are wrong... Man does not live on an island! The question might as well have been.." What would you do if you found a '"Unicorn"'??
Asking little girl type questions and then expecting logical compelling answers!!!??? Whack-Oooh
There are NO Unicorns but there is Eternal life.. Promised to all men by God!
The Crucifix is a perfect symbol of Love!
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/12/2016 1:49:37 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 11:05:43 AM, tarantula wrote:
At 6/12/2016 11:03:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/12/2016 10:44:58 AM, tarantula wrote:
Eternal life seems like a fate worse than death to me, especially if it means being with the Biblical version of god.

That is because you have little or no understanding of either God or what such a life represents, and it seems that for some reason you are too bitter to learn properly.

Such a shame, but that is precisely the feeling that Satan conned Even into developing.

Why do I bother replying to someone so obviously embittered as you?

I have no idea other than, as I have said before, I go where the spirit shoves me.

It is hilarious you giving anyone advice, considering even your evil cult doesn't wish you to be in its gang anymore because of your 'sins'!

You may think so, but I cannot deny truth no matter how uncomfortable it may be for me in some ways.

No will I deny holy spirit.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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6/13/2016 12:54:52 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 3:43:22 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

dee-em You make no sense ... Christians already have eternal life!!!

So your answer is ...?
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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6/13/2016 12:57:37 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 7:37:23 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

That's why JIhadist always approach the death because they believe martyrdom is the instance and the fastest way to the paradise.

Interesting answer. But what do you think?
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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6/13/2016 1:01:56 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 7:53:14 AM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

human body is created to last a very long time. almost every cell in our body (excluding eyes) is replaced by newer cells every couple of years, meaning that every couple of years we get a completely new body.

so, if we knew what to eat and how to prevent illnesses ... we could live a pretty long time.

and about amassing sins: good deeds erase bad deeds (their punishments) and bad deeds erase good deeds (their rewards), also, Going to heaven is actually easier that going to hell because:

He that doeth good shall have ten times as much to his credit: He that doeth evil shall only be recompensed according to his evil: no wrong shall be done unto (any of) them.

so theists might use it to become better.

You aren't concerned about subverting the will of God? After all, our current life span is part of his plan if he really does exist. An artificial extending of life making us near-immortal would be a direct challenge to this plan, would it not?
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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6/13/2016 1:55:54 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 11:00:16 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

Why would we when we don;t need it?

We already have Jehovah's promise that those who rely on him well get eternal life so why would we feel the need to rely on humans?

So you don't take any human developed medicines or hospital treatment when you are sick? I have to call you out as a hypocrite.

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

The problem with that is that judgement is set for a particular time, and no-one can avoid or defer it.

That is the whole premise of my post. What if you could?

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

Why would anyone want to continue to live in this wicked system of things, despite it's short term advantages, when there is an immeasurably better one to come, in perfect peace and perfect health?

Then why do theists like yourself already extend their lives via modern medicine?

No, any with real faith in what Jehovah promises would happily take a "short cut" there is such were allowed.

That's easy. Never visit a doctor, be admitted to a hospital or take any prescription drugs. Is that what you do?

There is far too much wrong with this world for any who truly care about their fellow man, or the rest of creation, to be truly happy having to live under it for any longer than Jehovah decrees.

How long is that? I ask because the average life expectancy has increased dramatically in the last century or so. Has Jehovah changed his mind?

Yes, because the special purpose of humans was always to care for his creation on earth, so obviously we have to be cared for first, so that we can fulfil our role.

Couldn't we care for it better if we lived forever and were able to utilise our accumulated experience and wisdom? Near immortality would enable us to more easily colonize the galaxy given the tyranny of distance. Would't Jehovah also want us to care for all of his creation?
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
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6/13/2016 2:51:33 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

ME: If my uncle had testicles would he be my aunty?????? Pointless speculation.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/13/2016 7:51:52 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 1:55:54 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/12/2016 11:00:16 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

Why would we when we don;t need it?

We already have Jehovah's promise that those who rely on him well get eternal life so why would we feel the need to rely on humans?

So you don't take any human developed medicines or hospital treatment when you are sick? I have to call you out as a hypocrite.

Yes I do but that is not relevant to this discussion and nor does it make me a hypocrite.

We are talking here about postponing Judgement and eternal life. Both of those are in Jehovah's purview not man's.


On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

The problem with that is that judgement is set for a particular time, and no-one can avoid or defer it.

That is the whole premise of my post. What if you could?

I have already explained that in context.

I will however add that to delay it for selfish reasons would be very wrong of me, Like Jehovah I have to consider the long term benefit for the whole of humanity over and above selfish interests and for the whole of humanity the long term good will only come from judgement, so when Jehovah has chosen to bring it is OK by me.
.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

Why would anyone want to continue to live in this wicked system of things, despite it's short term advantages, when there is an immeasurably better one to come, in perfect peace and perfect health?

Then why do theists like yourself already extend their lives via modern medicine?

Who says we all do?

If ever I am in a life threatening situation I shall make sure that Do Not resuscitate goes on my medical file. That way I can leave it in Jehovah's hands.

Whilst I have this life it is my responsibility to make the best of it I can within Jehovah's laws.

However I can only speak for myself. Not for other theists.


No, any with real faith in what Jehovah promises would happily take a "short cut" there is such were allowed.

That's easy. Never visit a doctor, be admitted to a hospital or take any prescription drugs. Is that what you do?

No because whilst I have this life it is my responsibility to care for it within the bounds of Jehovah's law.


There is far too much wrong with this world for any who truly care about their fellow man, or the rest of creation, to be truly happy having to live under it for any longer than Jehovah decrees.

How long is that? I ask because the average life expectancy has increased dramatically in the last century or so. Has Jehovah changed his mind?

Form the evidence I have seen on gravestones in old graveyards, whilst average lifespans have indeed increased. individual lifespans have not increased that much if any.

The problem with averages is simple. If 1 person does at 100, and another at 2, their average lifespan is only 51.

If a 3rd person lives to 6 years of age that actually drops the average to 36.

Averages are very misleading.


Yes, because the special purpose of humans was always to care for his creation on earth, so obviously we have to be cared for first, so that we can fulfil our role.


Couldn't we care for it better if we lived forever and were able to utilise our accumulated experience and wisdom? Near immortality would enable us to more easily colonize the galaxy given the tyranny of distance. Would't Jehovah also want us to care for all of his creation?

Absolutely, and since that is Jehovah's plan for the future, that will then be the case.

However Satan's system has to be destroyed, along with all of those who support it in any way, if only by not supporting Jehovah's system of things, before we can be returned to a sufficient level of holiness to enjoy the eternal prospect that Adam would have enjoyed had he not thrown it away.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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6/13/2016 1:59:40 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 7:51:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/13/2016 1:55:54 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/12/2016 11:00:16 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

Why would we when we don;t need it?

We already have Jehovah's promise that those who rely on him well get eternal life so why would we feel the need to rely on humans?

So you don't take any human developed medicines or hospital treatment when you are sick? I have to call you out as a hypocrite.

Yes I do but that is not relevant to this discussion and nor does it make me a hypocrite.

See your bolded words above. I fail to see the distinction between extending life for years or decades and extending it indefinitely. Perhaps you could elaborate.

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

The problem with that is that judgement is set for a particular time, and no-one can avoid or defer it.

That is the whole premise of my post. What if you could?

I have already explained that in context.

You are saying it can't be avoided. I am proposing a situation where it theoretically could. Answer the question as stated. Would you avail yourself of this treatment if it were available?

I will however add that to delay it for selfish reasons would be very wrong of me, Like Jehovah I have to consider the long term benefit for the whole of humanity over and above selfish interests and for the whole of humanity the long term good will only come from judgement, so when Jehovah has chosen to bring it is OK by me.

That is not an answer. If the treatment were available, would you take it?

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

Why would anyone want to continue to live in this wicked system of things, despite it's short term advantages, when there is an immeasurably better one to come, in perfect peace and perfect health?

Then why do theists like yourself already extend their lives via modern medicine?

Who says we all do?

Most do. I never said all.

If ever I am in a life threatening situation I shall make sure that Do Not resuscitate goes on my medical file. That way I can leave it in Jehovah's hands.

What if you had an infected appendix? Medical intervention is required. This is, in effect, a life extending operation. Are you for or against? If for, which I assume, how do you justify this versus not prolonging life indefinitely?

Whilst I have this life it is my responsibility to make the best of it I can within Jehovah's laws.

Does Jehovah have a law prohibiting human immortality?

No, any with real faith in what Jehovah promises would happily take a "short cut" there is such were allowed.

That's easy. Never visit a doctor, be admitted to a hospital or take any prescription drugs. Is that what you do?

No because whilst I have this life it is my responsibility to care for it within the bounds of Jehovah's law.

See above. "Whilst I have this life" could logically apply to forever, could it not?

There is far too much wrong with this world for any who truly care about their fellow man, or the rest of creation, to be truly happy having to live under it for any longer than Jehovah decrees.

How long is that? I ask because the average life expectancy has increased dramatically in the last century or so. Has Jehovah changed his mind?

Form the evidence I have seen on gravestones in old graveyards, whilst average lifespans have indeed increased. individual lifespans have not increased that much if any.

What? This is incoherent. Are you seriously disputing that the average life span for both men and women has increased markedly?

https://ourworldindata.org...

So I repeat. Has Jehovah changed his mind?

Yes, because the special purpose of humans was always to care for his creation on earth, so obviously we have to be cared for first, so that we can fulfil our role.

Couldn't we care for it better if we lived forever and were able to utilise our accumulated experience and wisdom? Near immortality would enable us to more easily colonize the galaxy given the tyranny of distance. Would't Jehovah also want us to care for all of his creation?

Absolutely, and since that is Jehovah's plan for the future, that will then be the case.

Jehovah's plan is to give us immortality here on Earth? If so, what is wrong with us doing it for ourselves?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/13/2016 2:18:44 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 1:59:40 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/13/2016 7:51:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/13/2016 1:55:54 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/12/2016 11:00:16 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

Why would we when we don;t need it?

We already have Jehovah's promise that those who rely on him well get eternal life so why would we feel the need to rely on humans?

So you don't take any human developed medicines or hospital treatment when you are sick? I have to call you out as a hypocrite.

Yes I do but that is not relevant to this discussion and nor does it make me a hypocrite.

See your bolded words above. I fail to see the distinction between extending life for years or decades and extending it indefinitely. Perhaps you could elaborate.

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

The problem with that is that judgement is set for a particular time, and no-one can avoid or defer it.

That is the whole premise of my post. What if you could?

I have already explained that in context.

You are saying it can't be avoided. I am proposing a situation where it theoretically could. Answer the question as stated. Would you avail yourself of this treatment if it were available?

I will however add that to delay it for selfish reasons would be very wrong of me, Like Jehovah I have to consider the long term benefit for the whole of humanity over and above selfish interests and for the whole of humanity the long term good will only come from judgement, so when Jehovah has chosen to bring it is OK by me.

That is not an answer. If the treatment were available, would you take it?

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?

Why would anyone want to continue to live in this wicked system of things, despite it's short term advantages, when there is an immeasurably better one to come, in perfect peace and perfect health?

Then why do theists like yourself already extend their lives via modern medicine?

Who says we all do?

Most do. I never said all.

If ever I am in a life threatening situation I shall make sure that Do Not resuscitate goes on my medical file. That way I can leave it in Jehovah's hands.

What if you had an infected appendix? Medical intervention is required. This is, in effect, a life extending operation. Are you for or against? If for, which I assume, how do you justify this versus not prolonging life indefinitely?

Whilst I have this life it is my responsibility to make the best of it I can within Jehovah's laws.

Does Jehovah have a law prohibiting human immortality?

No, any with real faith in what Jehovah promises would happily take a "short cut" there is such were allowed.

That's easy. Never visit a doctor, be admitted to a hospital or take any prescription drugs. Is that what you do?

No because whilst I have this life it is my responsibility to care for it within the bounds of Jehovah's law.

See above. "Whilst I have this life" could logically apply to forever, could it not?

There is far too much wrong with this world for any who truly care about their fellow man, or the rest of creation, to be truly happy having to live under it for any longer than Jehovah decrees.

How long is that? I ask because the average life expectancy has increased dramatically in the last century or so. Has Jehovah changed his mind?

Form the evidence I have seen on gravestones in old graveyards, whilst average lifespans have indeed increased. individual lifespans have not increased that much if any.

What? This is incoherent. Are you seriously disputing that the average life span for both men and women has increased markedly?

https://ourworldindata.org...

So I repeat. Has Jehovah changed his mind?

Yes, because the special purpose of humans was always to care for his creation on earth, so obviously we have to be cared for first, so that we can fulfil our role.

Couldn't we care for it better if we lived forever and were able to utilise our accumulated experience and wisdom? Near immortality would enable us to more easily colonize the galaxy given the tyranny of distance. Would't Jehovah also want us to care for all of his creation?

Absolutely, and since that is Jehovah's plan for the future, that will then be the case.

Jehovah's plan is to give us immortality here on Earth? If so, what is wrong with us doing it for ourselves?

No his plan is to give us eternal life here on earth, there is a vast difference between that and immortality.

What is wrong with us doing it ourselves?

Are you serious, look back at the mess we have made of everything so far.

No, the only way that will ever work is Jehovah's way. Simple as.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/13/2016 2:23:19 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 1:59:40 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/13/2016 7:51:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Form the evidence I have seen on gravestones in old graveyards, whilst average lifespans have indeed increased. individual lifespans have not increased that much if any.

What? This is incoherent. Are you seriously disputing that the average life span for both men and women has increased markedly?

No I am not disputing hat the average lifespan of humans has increased, but that is not because people are living to greater ages, it is because far more people are surviving to reasonable ages instead of dying before the age of 5, as the majority did in teh 1800s.

There is nothing incoherent about the figures I produced, averages are deceptive, very deceptive purely because they are averages.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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6/13/2016 2:42:09 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 2:18:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Ignoring most of my questions I see. Hmmm.

No his plan is to give us eternal life here on earth, there is a vast difference between that and immortality.

And that difference is ...?

What is wrong with us doing it ourselves?

Are you serious, look back at the mess we have made of everything so far.

That is debatable but also irrelevant to this discussion. I still have no answer from you as to whether you would avail yourself of an immortality treatment or not.

No, the only way that will ever work is Jehovah's way. Simple as.

Still no answer.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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6/13/2016 2:48:21 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 2:23:19 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/13/2016 1:59:40 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/13/2016 7:51:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Form the evidence I have seen on gravestones in old graveyards, whilst average lifespans have indeed increased. individual lifespans have not increased that much if any.

What? This is incoherent. Are you seriously disputing that the average life span for both men and women has increased markedly?

No I am not disputing hat the average lifespan of humans has increased, but that is not because people are living to greater ages, it is because far more people are surviving to reasonable ages instead of dying before the age of 5, as the majority did in teh 1800s.

Whilst the decline of infant mortality is certainly a factor, it is far from the whole story. Read the link I provided.

There is nothing incoherent about the figures I produced, averages are deceptive, very deceptive purely because they are averages.

See above. Even allowing for the reduction in infant mortality, life expectancy has increased.

Now, will you answer the original question after all the procrastination? Has Jehovah changed his mind?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/13/2016 3:11:31 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 2:48:21 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/13/2016 2:23:19 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/13/2016 1:59:40 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/13/2016 7:51:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Form the evidence I have seen on gravestones in old graveyards, whilst average lifespans have indeed increased. individual lifespans have not increased that much if any.

What? This is incoherent. Are you seriously disputing that the average life span for both men and women has increased markedly?

No I am not disputing hat the average lifespan of humans has increased, but that is not because people are living to greater ages, it is because far more people are surviving to reasonable ages instead of dying before the age of 5, as the majority did in teh 1800s.

Whilst the decline of infant mortality is certainly a factor, it is far from the whole story. Read the link I provided.

Of course it isn't the only factor, but I have seen graves from the 1800s which gave the age of the one who went in it as well over 100.

However more and more are living up to those ages, certainly.


There is nothing incoherent about the figures I produced, averages are deceptive, very deceptive purely because they are averages.

See above. Even allowing for the reduction in infant mortality, life expectancy has increased.

On average, yes, but not for individuals.

There have always been the few who have lived to 100+, even 130, it is jsut that there are more of them helping raise the average.

I still say don't read too much into averages, they are deceptive., and are almost invariably used by those who want to make the figures look better than they really are.


Now, will you answer the original question after all the procrastination? Has Jehovah changed his mind?

No of course he has not. He has no reason to.

The only thing that changed from the original plan is that Satan forced Jehovah to take a longer route there for the sake of true justice.

True justice demands that even the guilty get the opportunity to prove their case.

Phase three of the "evidence gathering" is almost over now, and soon Armageddon will usher in the final phase.

Once that is over the challenge can never be repeated, because precedent will be well and truly set so justice can in future be summary.

From there on in it will be back to the original plan eternally.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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6/13/2016 3:14:01 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 2:23:19 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 6/13/2016 1:59:40 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/13/2016 7:51:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Form the evidence I have seen on gravestones in old graveyards, whilst average lifespans have indeed increased. individual lifespans have not increased that much if any.

What? This is incoherent. Are you seriously disputing that the average life span for both men and women has increased markedly?

No I am not disputing hat the average lifespan of humans has increased, but that is not because people are living to greater ages, it is because far more people are surviving to reasonable ages instead of dying before the age of 5, as the majority did in teh 1800s.

More evidence you are retarded.
The average life span for men and women are increasing. They are living longer.
Your response was an attempt to restate the fact at the same time dispute the facts unsuccessfully.
You were diagnosed with permanent brain damage which resulted in an underdeveloped brain. You are mentally challenged. Accept it!!!

There is nothing incoherent about the figures I produced, averages are deceptive, very deceptive purely because they are averages.

How can averages be deceptive when they do what they are supposed to do and that is calculate averages?

Any wonder why your children and wives dumped you. You are profoundly stupid. The JW disfellowshipped and shunned you because you are a profoundly stupid pervert.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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6/13/2016 3:18:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 2:42:09 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/13/2016 2:18:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Ignoring most of my questions I see. Hmmm.

Not intentionally, but I do get "tunnel vision" sometimes and concentrate on only a portion of what is asked, sorry.


No his plan is to give us eternal life here on earth, there is a vast difference between that and immortality.

And that difference is ...?

If one is immortal one can never die.

If one is eternal, one can still die if one proves unfaithful, but need not die otherwise.

Another difference is that if an immortal jumped from the top of the highest mountain they would live. An eternal would die.

That is how scripture uses the words anyway.


What is wrong with us doing it ourselves?

Are you serious, look back at the mess we have made of everything so far.

That is debatable but also irrelevant to this discussion. I still have no answer from you as to whether you would avail yourself of an immortality treatment or not.

Actually it is neither debatable nor irrelevant, it is a simple fact that we have never proved capable of governing ourselves successfully.

War
Starvation
Drought
Inequality.

All evidences of exactly that failing.


No, the only way that will ever work is Jehovah's way. Simple as.

Still no answer.

My apologies if I did not answer the question you intended, though you should have been able to work it out from what I did say. However hopefully my last post will have cleared that up.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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6/13/2016 5:00:11 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Near immortality wouldn't stop the destruction of earth (an essential characteristic of Judgement Day). Such a destruction would likely be enough to kill you despite the drug (as it'd probably fit under the "accident/murde category of death). So such a drug could not ultimately bar death. And since God is omniscient, he'd have known of the drugs creation long before it's very existence, hence not even coming close to conflicting God's will.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
lightseeker
Posts: 1,029
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6/13/2016 5:16:21 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
He that doeth good shall have ten times as much to his credit: He that doeth evil shall only be recompensed according to his evil: no wrong shall be done unto (any of) them.

so theists might use it to become better.

You aren't concerned about subverting the will of God? After all, our current life span is part of his plan if he really does exist. An artificial extending of life making us near-immortal would be a direct challenge to this plan, would it not?

the will of God? he created this body to last pretty long time if simply we knew how to do it. and you say you've found a way. so this would be the will of God. but i guess in the world as is, i wouldn't use that medicine. i would use it though after apocalypse, since after that all would be great for all people of the world. this prayer that we're told to say in Ramadan (best month for Muslims) proves it. it's a prayer that will come true after apocalypse:

O Allah , Instill Happiness in the Spirits of the Inhabitants of the Grave

O Allah , Enrich Every Indigent (Poor One)

O Allah , Satisfy Every Hungry Person

O Allah , Clothe Every Unclothed One

O Allah , Facilitate the Payment of Every Indebted One

O Allah , Relieve Every Deeply Anguished One

O Allah , Return Every Stranger

O Allah , Free Every Captive

O Allah , Reform Every Uneven Affair of the Muslims

O Allah , Cure Every Sick Person

O Allah , Fill Our Poverty With Your Needlessness

O Allah , Change Our Unpleasant State Into Your Beautiful State

O Allah , Facilitate the Payment of Our Debt And Make us Needless
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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6/13/2016 9:23:28 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/11/2016 11:55:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
Suppose that a medical breakthrough was made in the near future where human beings could achieve near-immortality (barring accident or murder) via an easily affordable drug. The drug would restore you to a relatively youthful state and keep you in peak physical condition. Would theists avail themselves of this treatment?

On the one hand theists would be creating an immense amount of time in which to amass sin and tarnish their prospects at judgement. On the other hand they would be deferring that judgement for an indefinite period, perhaps subverting the will of God in the process.

What do theists think? Would you delay your entry into paradise if you had such an opportunity to live virtually forever?
Murder,accident, starving to death, too....
Once again you show a complete lack of proper reasoning by confusing cause and effect. Living longer via an assumption that being healthier will result in a longer life is a non sequitur. You simply have attempted another illogical "gotcha" proposition via bad reasoning that doesn't take ALL actual factors of living longer into account
If an entity (god is an entity) is made of something, then that entity (God is an entity) is contingent on that something
God isn't contingent on anything...
my 12 year old daughter recognized the internal contradiction from the first read....have you got it yet? Lmao
Seriously dee em,consider all variable before you delude yourself into believing you've concocted a logically sound proposition?