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God wanted and planned the fall of humanity

Chloe8
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6/13/2016 10:15:33 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Who is to blame in this scenario?

Hypothetically a scientist finds a way to create an exact genetic copy of Adolf Hitler. He goes ahead and creates the genetic copy of Adolf Hitler using his wife as a surrogate mother. The scientist tells no one that the baby is a genetic copy of Adolf Hitler and it goes into life in normal circumstances. Everyone assumes the baby was created naturally through sexual intercourse, only the scientist and his wife know the truth.

The scientists wife then gives birth to a healthy baby but the scientist and his wife die in a car crash when the baby is a week old. The baby is then adopted by a normal family and given a good upbringing. However as the child grows up it develops some extreme views and displays great leadership and public speaking skills. The Adolf Hitler clone then goes into politics, toning down his views to enable him to have realistic prospects of election. He is eventually elected president of the usa. However he slowly changes things and gives himself more and more powers before eventually becoming a dictator. He decides to euthanize all non whites, non Christians, homosexuals and people with mental or physical disabilities. He then decides to declare war on Russia. The resulting nuclear war results in the extinction of humanity.

Who do you blame for the extinction of the human race? The scientist or his creation? Or possibly both to some extent?

Surely the scientist must be blamed to some degree as the person he created a genetic copy of demonstrated the traits neccessary to be a mass murderer capable of causing the extinction of humanity.

So Christians, why do you excuse your god from any blame for the sin of Adam and Eve despite him being omniscient and therefore knowing the inevitable result when he created them that when he allowed Satan to test them they would give in to his temptation? Surely it is the creator who is ultimately responsible when it's creations do wrong?

When you create something and know the likely negative result that will occur from doing so you have to take the blame for the inevitable actions of the creation. It is certainly not a sensible thing to punish the creation for doing something you knew it would do (and therefore wanted it to do) when you created it. It's actually very cruel. Why intentionally create something flawed and then punish it for being the way you created it? It's comparable to punishing a child for stealing some sweets after you told the child to steal sweets. It's just being cruel unnecessarily.

The Christian god if it exists planned and desired the fall of humanity and therefore wants all of the evil found on earth. If it exists it is evil and undeserving of worship in any circumstances.
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/13/2016 11:22:44 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
It was God's will that the "fall of humanity" happened.

I agree with this.

The difference I think we have is that while I accept this as a part of God's plan without any cognitive dissonance and judgement towards God whatsoever, you sound like you are holding it against God.

But you know, the fall happened the moment we took ourselves as being the rightful Judge of good and evil. That's kind of the point.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/14/2016 3:25:02 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 10:15:33 PM, Chloe8 wrote:

Surely the scientist must be blamed to some degree as the person he created a genetic copy of demonstrated the traits neccessary to be a mass murderer capable of causing the extinction of humanity.

If we compare the scientist to God as the creator of humans and then understand the concept of the creator creating humans in his own image. The fact that humans have the capacity to do good or evil, right or wrong, must mean God also has the same capacity. If he did not, humans are not created in the image of an entity with the capacity to do good and evil.
Mass murderers are created in the image of a mass murderer. Take the story of God murdering all humans on Earth in a world wide flood as an example of mass murder. Adolf Hitlers murders were insignificant compared to killing the whole world except for 8 people.

So Christians, why do you excuse your god from any blame for the sin of Adam and Eve despite him being omniscient and therefore knowing the inevitable result when he created them that when he allowed Satan to test them they would give in to his temptation? Surely it is the creator who is ultimately responsible when it's creations do wrong?

The creator holds himself responsible if you accept the following statement as being a confession or admittance from the creator.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The bible teaches that all evil comes from the Lord.
Joshua 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things.
Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit
2 Kings 6:33 "Behold, this evil is of the LORD;
2 Samuel 12:11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house
2 Kings 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place
Jeremiah 45:5 "behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD:

Could it be possible that due to the character holding himself responsible, he felt it necessary to him to turn himself into a man and suffer the consequences of death as punishment for his own evil actions. He allowed the people on Earth to judge and condemn him or justify and forgive him. It seems the condemnation and justification of the character is still happening today.
Do you condemn of forgive the entity ( real or imagined) for creating you in his own image and for you having the ability to do good and evil according to your own will as well as suffer the consequences of your own actions, the same as he does?

When you create something and know the likely negative result that will occur from doing so you have to take the blame for the inevitable actions of the creation. It is certainly not a sensible thing to punish the creation for doing something you knew it would do (and therefore wanted it to do) when you created it. It's actually very cruel. Why intentionally create something flawed and then punish it for being the way you created it? It's comparable to punishing a child for stealing some sweets after you told the child to steal sweets. It's just being cruel unnecessarily.

What if you are perfect in the sense of being whole and complete and being capable of doing all opposites as well as capable of making all things work out for the best and not the worst? If you wanted to reproduce more perfect things like yourself, why would you deprive them of the ability to do all opposite things? Is it cruel for a perfect being to create more perfect beings in its own perfect image? It it a flaw in humanity to be able to create evil and its opposite just like the creator creates evil and its opposite? Is it a flaw in humanity to reap what we sow? The God character also reaps what he sows. He reaps rejection from those he rejects and reaps acceptance from those he accepts. He reaps condemnation from those he condemns and reaps forgiveness from those he forgives.

The Christian god if it exists planned and desired the fall of humanity and therefore wants all of the evil found on earth. If it exists it is evil and undeserving of worship in any circumstances.

Is it really a "fall" or just the illusion of a fall? What do you think humanity has fallen from ? They obviously have not fallen from being capable of doing or knowing good and evil.
The only thing the Adam and Eve characters fell from was their ignorance. They fell from ignorance by gaining knowledge. Do you suggest they should have remained ignorant of good and evil and not known what the difference between them was?
If you perceived nothing as good or evil, would any God be good or any devil be evil or would they both be exactly the same neutral thing?

Take a look at Nature. Are the acts of Nature ( acts of God) good or evil or neutral? Does Nature decide to punish humans by sending droughts and flood etc or is the human perception of punishment from gods/God simply a result of superstition, human belief and perception? Is a cruel entity watching humans make fools of themselves because they do not believe in the entity or are humans simply making fools of themselves by believing their own delusions about supernatural characters?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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6/14/2016 3:38:12 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 11:22:44 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It was God's will that the "fall of humanity" happened.

I agree with this.

Why ? What makes you think humanity have "fallen" from any state? What makes you believe some imaginary "fall" was anyones "will" and not simply an inevitable consequence of human nature and imagination ?

The difference I think we have is that while I accept this as a part of God's plan without any cognitive dissonance and judgement towards God whatsoever, you sound like you are holding it against God.

Holding something against "God" or simply accepting it as it is, is no different to holding something against Nature or simply accepting it as it is.
I very much doubt that God has any more of a will or intent or plan than Nature does.
Acts of Nature and "Acts of God" are exactly the same thing with different labels.

But you know, the fall happened the moment we took ourselves as being the rightful Judge of good and evil. That's kind of the point.

What makes you think that is true?
What exactly did you fall from when you took yourself to be the rightful judge of good and evil?
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,863
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6/14/2016 4:03:37 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 10:15:33 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Who is to blame in this scenario?

Hypothetically a scientist finds a way to create an exact genetic copy of Adolf Hitler. He goes ahead and creates the genetic copy of Adolf Hitler using his wife as a surrogate mother. The scientist tells no one that the baby is a genetic copy of Adolf Hitler and it goes into life in normal circumstances. Everyone assumes the baby was created naturally through sexual intercourse, only the scientist and his wife know the truth.

The scientists wife then gives birth to a healthy baby but the scientist and his wife die in a car crash when the baby is a week old. The baby is then adopted by a normal family and given a good upbringing. However as the child grows up it develops some extreme views and displays great leadership and public speaking skills. The Adolf Hitler clone then goes into politics, toning down his views to enable him to have realistic prospects of election. He is eventually elected president of the usa. However he slowly changes things and gives himself more and more powers before eventually becoming a dictator. He decides to euthanize all non whites, non Christians, homosexuals and people with mental or physical disabilities. He then decides to declare war on Russia. The resulting nuclear war results in the extinction of humanity.

Who do you blame for the extinction of the human race? The scientist or his creation? Or possibly both to some extent?
You can't blame the extinction of humanity on anything because we aren't alive to place blame unless you are now accepting there is an afterlife and we as souls would have memories of this occurrence. If not this is a loaded question fallacy. By definition the scientist didn't create anything. He merely achieved an act that is a part of Gods creation, and yes they call it procreation but that's a loosely used meaning create. OK maybe not but I gave it a shot. You're confusing cause and effect. The environment caused Hitler not the scientist who created him ,)p
Surely the scientist must be blamed to some degree as the person he created a genetic copy of demonstrated the traits neccessary to be a mass murderer capable of causing the extinction of humanity.
No actually the scientist wouldn't be because logically speaking you are committing a historians fallacy. In other words, you are taking information from the future and applying it to an act that someone did in the past. Example. If i go into the emergency room with a stomach ache and the doctor merely thinks early onset of an ulcer he would decide to send me home to return at a later date. The next day I get hit by a car and die. The autopsy determines I actually had a stomach tumor that should have been immediately attended to. Technically the doctor who sent me home should have kept me in the hospital therefore keeping me from getting killed by the car. Your logic is exactly the same. The doctor who sent me home isn't responsible for getting me killed just because information found out in the future, the next day, would have made the doctor act differently.
So Christians, why do you excuse your god from any blame for the sin of Adam and Eve despite him being omniscient and therefore knowing the inevitable result when he created them that when he allowed Satan to test them they would give in to his temptation? Surely it is the creator who is ultimately responsible when it's creations do wrong?
You don't seem to understand Christianity so this is nothing but a loaded question fallacy again. Christians do not have the wisdom, as does anyone else, as to why this existence in a necessary good. Well I know but I'm not telling this time. And how is it that God sacrificed his only son if God isn't somehow in a round about way saying that he offers apology for what you say Christians excuse God from?
When you create something and know the likely negative result that will occur from doing so you have to take the blame for the inevitable actions of the creation. It is certainly not a sensible thing to punish the creation for doing something you knew it would do (and therefore wanted it to do) when you created it. It's actually very cruel. Why intentionally create something flawed and then punish it for being the way you created it? It's comparable to punishing a child for stealing some sweets after you told the child to steal sweets. It's just being cruel unnecessarily.
This assumes there is a negative effect. You simply blurt out these opinions as if you have possession of infinite wisdom in regards to what is good or bad and everyone must accept it to go along with your reasoning.
The Christian god if it exists planned and desired the fall of humanity and therefore wants all of the evil found on earth. If it exists it is evil and undeserving of worship in any circumstances.
Non sequitur. Prove what is worthy of worship in a universally accepted way so that this is nothing more than just another one of your pouting posts and proclamations you possess the wisdom to know what is good and evil and all of us must accept your premises based on mere opinion. Find some substance and logic, then start a thread....lol.my opinion
nothead
Posts: 371
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6/14/2016 8:03:38 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 10:15:33 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Who is to blame in this scenario?

Hypothetically a scientist finds a way to create an exact genetic copy of Adolf Hitler. He goes ahead and creates the genetic copy of Adolf Hitler using his wife as a surrogate mother. The scientist tells no one that the baby is a genetic copy of Adolf Hitler and it goes into life in normal circumstances. Everyone assumes the baby was created naturally through sexual intercourse, only the scientist and his wife know the truth.

The scientists wife then gives birth to a healthy baby but the scientist and his wife die in a car crash when the baby is a week old. The baby is then adopted by a normal family and given a good upbringing. However as the child grows up it develops some extreme views and displays great leadership and public speaking skills. The Adolf Hitler clone then goes into politics, toning down his views to enable him to have realistic prospects of election. He is eventually elected president of the usa. However he slowly changes things and gives himself more and more powers before eventually becoming a dictator. He decides to euthanize all non whites, non Christians, homosexuals and people with mental or physical disabilities. He then decides to declare war on Russia. The resulting nuclear war results in the extinction of humanity.

Who do you blame for the extinction of the human race? The scientist or his creation? Or possibly both to some extent?

Surely the scientist must be blamed to some degree as the person he created a genetic copy of demonstrated the traits neccessary to be a mass murderer capable of causing the extinction of humanity.

So Christians, why do you excuse your god from any blame for the sin of Adam and Eve despite him being omniscient and therefore knowing the inevitable result when he created them that when he allowed Satan to test them they would give in to his temptation? Surely it is the creator who is ultimately responsible when it's creations do wrong?

When you create something and know the likely negative result that will occur from doing so you have to take the blame for the inevitable actions of the creation. It is certainly not a sensible thing to punish the creation for doing something you knew it would do (and therefore wanted it to do) when you created it. It's actually very cruel. Why intentionally create something flawed and then punish it for being the way you created it? It's comparable to punishing a child for stealing some sweets after you told the child to steal sweets. It's just being cruel unnecessarily.

The Christian god if it exists planned and desired the fall of humanity and therefore wants all of the evil found on earth. If it exists it is evil and undeserving of worship in any circumstances.

Or...the God YHWH created evil and suffering so that we know what good and life's pleasures really are.

Like em...you see a sunset over a peaceful sea every time, you get to not appreciating it, until you caught in a storm tossed about like a cork. You know...that sort of thingybobber.
JusAnoCon
Posts: 27
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6/16/2016 7:00:34 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Ignoring your ridiculous hypothetical, there's a simple reason why God is not to blame, even though he was aware of the eventual outcome.

In order to give Adam true free will, he created a single law. "Don't eat the fruit of this specific tree." This gave him the option to disobey, which, without any rules or commands, would not have been possible. You can't disobey a law that doesn't exist. And if you haven't been given the option to disobey, you don't have free will.

Are legislators, who write laws, to blame for the people who choose to break them? No. They broke the law of their own free will. Are legislators stupid enough to believe no one will break a law they write? Again, no; and punishments are apportioned to those who choose to break it. The blame for a transgression of a law remains with the lawbreaker, not the lawmaker.

God's foreknowledge of the events that would come afterwards neither exonerates Adam's disobedience, nor shifts any portion of blame onto God. Adam still made the conscious decision to break the only law God had placed on him.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Inque Hominem Salutem. Soli Deo Gloria.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/16/2016 11:18:10 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 11:22:44 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It was God's will that the "fall of humanity" happened.

I agree with this.

The difference I think we have is that while I accept this as a part of God's plan without any cognitive dissonance and judgement towards God whatsoever, you sound like you are holding it against God.

But you know, the fall happened the moment we took ourselves as being the rightful Judge of good and evil. That's kind of the point.

According to the story the characters had no knowledge of good and evil so they couldn't possibly have taken it upon themselves to be any sort of judge concerning good and evil.
Haven't you read the story?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/16/2016 11:29:07 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/16/2016 11:18:10 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/13/2016 11:22:44 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It was God's will that the "fall of humanity" happened.

I agree with this.

The difference I think we have is that while I accept this as a part of God's plan without any cognitive dissonance and judgement towards God whatsoever, you sound like you are holding it against God.

But you know, the fall happened the moment we took ourselves as being the rightful Judge of good and evil. That's kind of the point.

According to the story the characters had no knowledge of good and evil so they couldn't possibly have taken it upon themselves to be any sort of judge concerning good and evil.
Haven't you read the story?

What do you think it means to eat the fruit of good and evil?

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

The devil has been doing the same trick ever since.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/16/2016 11:34:29 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/16/2016 11:29:07 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/16/2016 11:18:10 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/13/2016 11:22:44 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It was God's will that the "fall of humanity" happened.

I agree with this.

The difference I think we have is that while I accept this as a part of God's plan without any cognitive dissonance and judgement towards God whatsoever, you sound like you are holding it against God.

But you know, the fall happened the moment we took ourselves as being the rightful Judge of good and evil. That's kind of the point.

According to the story the characters had no knowledge of good and evil so they couldn't possibly have taken it upon themselves to be any sort of judge concerning good and evil.
Haven't you read the story?

What do you think it means to eat the fruit of good and evil?

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

The devil has been doing the same trick ever since.
So you can read it, you just can't understand it, that figures.
It says that they knew right and wrong AFTER eating the fruit, why do you people have so much trouble with that? Oh that's right it's because it shows the entire story to be a fabrication ie LIE.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/16/2016 11:39:36 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/16/2016 11:34:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
It says that they knew right and wrong AFTER eating the fruit, why do you people have so much trouble with that? Oh that's right it's because it shows the entire story to be a fabrication ie LIE.

It's saying a great deal more than that.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/17/2016 12:51:16 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/16/2016 11:39:36 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/16/2016 11:34:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
It says that they knew right and wrong AFTER eating the fruit, why do you people have so much trouble with that? Oh that's right it's because it shows the entire story to be a fabrication ie LIE.

It's saying a great deal more than that.
You can't even understand that bit so are in no position to make any claims with merit.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/17/2016 12:56:32 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/17/2016 12:51:16 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/16/2016 11:39:36 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/16/2016 11:34:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
It says that they knew right and wrong AFTER eating the fruit, why do you people have so much trouble with that? Oh that's right it's because it shows the entire story to be a fabrication ie LIE.

It's saying a great deal more than that.
You can't even understand that bit so are in no position to make any claims with merit.

The fact that you presume to know what I understand speaks volumes about how much you actually understand.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/17/2016 1:12:08 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/17/2016 12:56:32 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/17/2016 12:51:16 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/16/2016 11:39:36 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/16/2016 11:34:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
It says that they knew right and wrong AFTER eating the fruit, why do you people have so much trouble with that? Oh that's right it's because it shows the entire story to be a fabrication ie LIE.

It's saying a great deal more than that.
You can't even understand that bit so are in no position to make any claims with merit.

The fact that you presume to know what I understand speaks volumes about how much you actually understand.
Yes you've told us what you understand and you've shown that it's nothing.
Read on:
At 6/16/2016 11:34:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/16/2016 11:29:07 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/16/2016 11:18:10 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/13/2016 11:22:44 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It was God's will that the "fall of humanity" happened.

I agree with this.

The difference I think we have is that while I accept this as a part of God's plan without any cognitive dissonance and judgement towards God whatsoever, you sound like you are holding it against God.

But you know, the fall happened the moment we took ourselves as being the rightful Judge of good and evil. That's kind of the point.

According to the story the characters had no knowledge of good and evil so they couldn't possibly have taken it upon themselves to be any sort of judge concerning good and evil.
Haven't you read the story?

What do you think it means to eat the fruit of good and evil?

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

The devil has been doing the same trick ever since.
So you can read it, you just can't understand it, that figures.
It says that they knew right and wrong AFTER eating the fruit, why do you people have so much trouble with that? Oh that's right it's because it shows the entire story to be a fabrication ie LIE.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/17/2016 1:22:39 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/17/2016 1:12:08 AM, bulproof wrote:
Yes you've told us what you understand and you've shown that it's nothing.

You got nothing, pal.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Willows
Posts: 2,039
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6/17/2016 1:34:38 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
This is a great scenario you posed.
Logically I think the scientist and his wife (assuming she was a willing surrogate) have to take equal blame. Anybody wanting to clone Hitler would have to have a sinister motive in the first place. So far as the recalcitrant offspring goes, he has to take the ultimate blame. We are all given a clean slate at birth and regardless of any genetic disability we have the ability to make choices during our life.

So far as that acrimonious hothead up there goes; he has a shocking human rights record and an uncontrollable anger management problem. There is no evidence of any intervention by Him when the original Hitler went about exterminating the "chosen people".
Bennett91
Posts: 4,205
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6/17/2016 2:41:26 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/16/2016 7:00:34 PM, JusAnoCon wrote:
Ignoring your ridiculous hypothetical, there's a simple reason why God is not to blame, even though he was aware of the eventual outcome.

In order to give Adam true free will, he created a single law. "Don't eat the fruit of this specific tree." This gave him the option to disobey, which, without any rules or commands, would not have been possible. You can't disobey a law that doesn't exist. And if you haven't been given the option to disobey, you don't have free will.

But God knew when creating Adam and then Eve how the snake would trick Eve. The outcome was preordained it's not free will.

Are legislators, who write laws, to blame for the people who choose to break them? No. They broke the law of their own free will. Are legislators stupid enough to believe no one will break a law they write? Again, no; and punishments are apportioned to those who choose to break it. The blame for a transgression of a law remains with the lawbreaker, not the lawmaker.

Yes they are to blame for passing biased legislation that only effects LGBT people and implies negative stereotypes about them. The recent massacre is a perfect example of religious hypocrisy - they tweet "Praying for victims" yet pass anti-LGBT laws about bathrooms and marriage. They pass the laws knowing the outcome, an unjust law ought to be resisted.

God's foreknowledge of the events that would come afterwards neither exonerates Adam's disobedience, nor shifts any portion of blame onto God. Adam still made the conscious decision to break the only law God had placed on him.

And God knew he would break that law. Free Will is subservient to that fact.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/17/2016 3:26:49 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/16/2016 7:00:34 PM, JusAnoCon wrote:
Ignoring your ridiculous hypothetical, there's a simple reason why God is not to blame, even though he was aware of the eventual outcome.

In order to give Adam true free will, he created a single law. "Don't eat the fruit of this specific tree." This gave him the option to disobey, which, without any rules or commands, would not have been possible. You can't disobey a law that doesn't exist. And if you haven't been given the option to disobey, you don't have free will.

Are legislators, who write laws, to blame for the people who choose to break them? No. They broke the law of their own free will. Are legislators stupid enough to believe no one will break a law they write? Again, no; and punishments are apportioned to those who choose to break it. The blame for a transgression of a law remains with the lawbreaker, not the lawmaker.

God's foreknowledge of the events that would come afterwards neither exonerates Adam's disobedience, nor shifts any portion of blame onto God. Adam still made the conscious decision to break the only law God had placed on him.
You can't disobey if you haven't been taught to obey. Obedience is a learned response.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin