Total Posts:155|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Is Islam false?

spiritislife
Posts: 94
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2010 7:29:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
How do you know the revelations of Muhammad were from the one true God and not from another source - like an evil or demonic one? Muhammad himself said not to believe without the witness of two men (surah 2:282) and yet there were no witnesses present when he received his revelations.

Another question is why didn't God speak directly to Muhammad, as He spoke directly to the Prophets before him, such as Moses and Ezechiel, and Elias - all received their revelations directly from God? Can you give me another example in Prophethood history where a true prophet is pressed so tightly by an 'angel' he can't breathe, is scared out of his wits he wants to kill himself afterwards, and is literally forced to read?

Another question I have is why didn;t 'Allah' give Muhammad the power to perform miracles so that all may believe that Muhammad's message was truly from God, as God gave Moses, Ezechiel, and Elijah, Jesus, and others this power to testify to the truth by performing miracles?
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2010 7:53:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Nope, for no religion is true and at the same time no religion is false, they all contain bits of the truth (except for any religion endorsed by L. Ron Hubbard) . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 7:53:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/14/2010 7:29:44 PM, spiritislife wrote:
How do you know the revelations of Muhammad were from the one true God and not from another source - like an evil or demonic one? Muhammad himself said not to believe without the witness of two men (surah 2:282) and yet there were no witnesses present when he received his revelations.

Another question is why didn't God speak directly to Muhammad, as He spoke directly to the Prophets before him, such as Moses and Ezechiel, and Elias - all received their revelations directly from God? Can you give me another example in Prophethood history where a true prophet is pressed so tightly by an 'angel' he can't breathe, is scared out of his wits he wants to kill himself afterwards, and is literally forced to read?

Another question I have is why didn;t 'Allah' give Muhammad the power to perform miracles so that all may believe that Muhammad's message was truly from God, as God gave Moses, Ezechiel, and Elijah, Jesus, and others this power to testify to the truth by performing miracles?

Response: In the qur'an we read the following:

"And if you are I'm doubt as to what We have sent down to out servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Here we have a test which proves that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the qur'an and proves so by challenging all of those who doubt so to prove so by trying to produce a chapter like the qur'an. For by trying to produce a chapter like the qur'an, you'll learn first hand that such a thing is humanly impossible to do.

But before the thread is filled with the common response of simply producing something in Arabic or claiming that the challenge is not valid because not being able to produce a play like Shakespeare does not mean that the play is from God so the same analogy applies to the qur'an, let me further elaborate. The qur'an, like any scripture, is inspiration. And like any scripture, it's intent is to inspire people to follow it's teaching. Thus the challenge is to produce something which is as inspirational as the qur'an, for it's the inspiration of the qur'an which is miraculous. And what is that miracle you ask? The miracle is within the following:

"It is impossible for a person/s to use speech or literature invented by any person or people to inspire enough follows to conquer a nation."

This is the miracle of Muhammad. For the challenge proves that it is impossible to use any speech or literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. You disagree? Then take the challenge and prove differently. Try using a speech or literature invented by any person/d to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation and see what happens. I'll even simplify the challenge by asking you to just conquer the street you live on and see what happens. You will fail and fail miserably. You won't come close to achieving the challenge. You'll learn first hand that such an act is humanly impossible and that is when you'll learn the miracle of Muhammad. Why? Because Muhammad used the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. So if it is humanly impossible to use speech or literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation yet Muhammad used the qur'an the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, then what does that mean? That means that the qur'an in which Muhammad used is not the invention of any human but must come from a higher power and authority greater than humans, and that is Allah (swt). You disagree? Take the challenge and prove differently.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 8:08:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/14/2010 7:29:44 PM, spiritislife wrote:
How do you know the revelations of Muhammad were from the one true God and not from another source - like an evil or demonic one? Muhammad himself said not to believe without the witness of two men (surah 2:282) and yet there were no witnesses present when he received his revelations.

Another question is why didn't God speak directly to Muhammad, as He spoke directly to the Prophets before him, such as Moses and Ezechiel, and Elias - all received their revelations directly from God? Can you give me another example in Prophethood history where a true prophet is pressed so tightly by an 'angel' he can't breathe, is scared out of his wits he wants to kill himself afterwards, and is literally forced to read?

Another question I have is why didn;t 'Allah' give Muhammad the power to perform miracles so that all may believe that Muhammad's message was truly from God, as God gave Moses, Ezechiel, and Elijah, Jesus, and others this power to testify to the truth by performing miracles?

Response: In the qur'an we read the following:

"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Here we have a test which proves that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the qur'an and proves so by challenging all of those who doubt so to prove so by trying to produce a chapter like the qur'an. For by trying to produce a chapter like the qur'an, you'll learn first hand that such a thing is humanly impossible to do.

But before the thread is filled with the common response of simply producing something in Arabic or claiming that the challenge is not valid because not being able to produce a play like Shakespeare does not mean that the play is from God so the same analogy applies to the qur'an, let me further elaborate. The qur'an, like any scripture, is inspiration. And like any scripture, it's intent is to inspire people to follow it's teaching. Thus the challenge is to produce something which is as inspirational as the qur'an, for it's the inspiration of the qur'an which is miraculous. And what is that miracle you ask? The miracle is within the following:

"It is impossible for a person/s to use speech or literature invented by any person or people to inspire enough follows to conquer a nation."

This is the miracle of Muhammad. For the challenge proves that it is impossible to use any speech or literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. You disagree? Then take the challenge and prove differently. Try using a speech or literature invented by any person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation and see what happens. I'll even simplify the challenge by asking you to just conquer the street you live on and see what happens. You will fail and fail miserably. You won't come close to achieving the challenge. You'll learn first hand that such an act is humanly impossible and that is when you'll learn the miracle of Muhammad. Why? Because Muhammad used the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. So if it is humanly impossible to use speech or literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation yet Muhammad used the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, then what does that mean? That means that the qur'an in which Muhammad used is not the invention of any human but must come from a higher power and authority greater than humans, and that is Allah (swt). You disagree? Take the challenge and prove differently.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 8:27:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/14/2010 7:29:44 PM, spiritislife wrote:
How do you know the revelations of Muhammad were from the one true God and not from another source - like an evil or demonic one? Muhammad himself said not to believe without the witness of two men (surah 2:282) and yet there were no witnesses present when he received his revelations.

Another question is why didn't God speak directly to Muhammad, as He spoke directly to the Prophets before him, such as Moses and Ezechiel, and Elias - all received their revelations directly from God? Can you give me another example in Prophethood history where a true prophet is pressed so tightly by an 'angel' he can't breathe, is scared out of his wits he wants to kill himself afterwards, and is literally forced to read?

Another question I have is why didn;t 'Allah' give Muhammad the power to perform miracles so that all may believe that Muhammad's message was truly from God, as God gave Moses, Ezechiel, and Elijah, Jesus, and others this power to testify to the truth by performing miracles?

Response: Addressing your other questions, Muhammad did receive revelation sometimes directly. The qur'an does not speak of any significant reasons as to why Allah reveals revelations differently but the logical reasoning would be to test one's faith. In other words, will Muhammad or humankind not hearken to the truth just because Allah revealed something differently. Such a test would determine who is truly sincere in their belief. Islam also does not state that Allah sended Angels to reveal revelation to other prophets by squeezing them nor did Muhammad ever want to kill himself.

Muhammad also performed several miracles as well. But since the message of the qur'an and sunnah is meant for all of humanity for all time while the other prophets messages were not, there needed to be a miracle in which we all can verify first hand and know, and that was the primary miracle of Muhammad. For he was revealed the qur'an which can be verified at all times by anyone that it is true and from Allah, as the qur'an challenge above demonstrates.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 12:20:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes ! Islam is truly false.

We are never told to call to our own ability to test if a teaching is true, the idea to do so is man made rubbish !

Why would God teach us to find truth one way then change it to another ?, look at this verse explaining the correct way to find truth

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".

So we look at the word and compare all teaching with that !- because we are taught - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness": (2 Tim 3:16)

Were the Apostles kept till last ?

1 Cor 4:9 "For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men".

Every religion contains a portion of truth, rat poison contains 98% food, it's the 2% that's the killer. the word of God must be 100% compatible with the bible !.

I'd like someone to tell me how someone from the Islamic faith is saved. and then explain to me how it compares with the teachings of the bible.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 12:47:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 12:20:43 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
Yes ! Islam is truly false.

We are never told to call to our own ability to test if a teaching is true, the idea to do so is man made rubbish !

Why would God teach us to find truth one way then change it to another ?, look at this verse explaining the correct way to find truth

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".

So we look at the word and compare all teaching with that !- because we are taught - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness": (2 Tim 3:16)

Were the Apostles kept till last ?

1 Cor 4:9 "For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men".

Every religion contains a portion of truth, rat poison contains 98% food, it's the 2% that's the killer. the word of God must be 100% compatible with the bible !.

I'd like someone to tell me how someone from the Islamic faith is saved. and then explain to me how it compares with the teachings of the bible.

Response: As demonstrated, the qur'an provides a test which one can verify themselves as to whether it is the word of Allah, while bible's proof is "it's true because it says so", which is clearly flawed logic. Thus the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah, while the bible's logic of proof is not only flawed, but it's many contradictions and discrepancies are further proof that it is not God's word or inspired word.
spiritislife
Posts: 94
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 3:13:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hello Fatihah,

This is the miracle of Muhammad. For the challenge proves that it is impossible to use any speech or literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is not a 'miracle of Muhammad' or any other miracle, as you claim. Plus, this statement is not true. Others have inspired enough followers with their literature to 'conquer a nation'. This has been already accomplished over 500 years ago. For example, look up Sikhism. Founded in the fifteenth century by Nanak Dev Ji, it is the fifth largest Religion in the world and one of the fastest growing, according to some estimates.

There are an estimated 26 million followers of the Sikh religion. Their scriptures also claim to be divinely inspired and 'more special' than the Qu'ran. 26 million followers is larger than the size of many nations! In fact, this was larger than the size my entire country was for many years (Canada).

That is a lot of inspiration power of a mere man's words, wouldn't you say? 26 million people! So by your standards of judging, you must claim that the Sikh text is also divinely inspired - based on the fact that it has conquered more than the size of a nation? Lol! But of course you don;t or you would be a Sikhist yourself.

Another example: The Baha Faith (founded in the nineteenth century) now has over 5 million followers worldwide, and also claims their words to be divinely inspired, and many ex-muslims for that matter.

My point is you cannot use an argument to prove Islam must be of Divine origin based on how many people it's text has inspired. Other texts have also inspired millions of people. And anyway, by that criteria, the Bible (O.t and N.T) is the hands-down winner - because it has inspired more followers than the Holy Quran or any other religious book put together in history three times over.
spiritislife
Posts: 94
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 3:29:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
...nor did Muhammad ever want to kil himself.

Oh really?

"So I [Muhammad] read it, and he [Gabriel] departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was though these words were written on my heart. (Tabari: Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying "O Muhammad! thou are the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."

-- Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah" from Guillaume's translation, "The Life of Muhammad", [3], page 106.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 3:29:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 3:13:33 PM, spiritislife wrote:
Hello Fatihah,


This is the miracle of Muhammad. For the challenge proves that it is impossible to use any speech or literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is not a 'miracle of Muhammad' or any other miracle, as you claim. Plus, this statement is not true. Others have inspired enough followers with their literature to 'conquer a nation'. This has been already accomplished over 500 years ago. For example, look up Sikhism. Founded in the fifteenth century by Nanak Dev Ji, it is the fifth largest Religion in the world and one of the fastest growing, according to some estimates.

There are an estimated 26 million followers of the Sikh religion. Their scriptures also claim to be divinely inspired and 'more special' than the Qu'ran. 26 million followers is larger than the size of many nations! In fact, this was larger than the size my entire country was for many years (Canada).

That is a lot of inspiration power of a mere man's words, wouldn't you say? 26 million people! So by your standards of judging, you must claim that the Sikh text is also divinely inspired - based on the fact that it has conquered more than the size of a nation? Lol! But of course you don;t or you would be a Sikhist yourself.

Another example: The Baha Faith (founded in the nineteenth century) now has over 5 million followers worldwide, and also claims their words to be divinely inspired, and many ex-muslims for that matter.

My point is you cannot use an argument to prove Islam must be of Divine origin based on how many people it's text has inspired. Other texts have also inspired millions of people. And anyway, by that criteria, the Bible (O.t and N.T) is the hands-down winner - because it has inspired more followers than the Holy Quran or any other religious book put together in history three times over.

Response, Not only have you failed to answer the challenge by using a speech or literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, but at no time have I stated that the proof that islam is of divine origin is based on how many people its text has inspired. Thus your point has no relevence. As for Sikhism answering the challenge, your proof of such claim is that a book told you so, which is not credible proof. Thus the challenge which confirms that the qur'an is from Allah is still valid.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 3:31:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 3:29:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:
...nor did Muhammad ever want to kil himself.

Oh really?


"So I [Muhammad] read it, and he [Gabriel] departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was though these words were written on my heart. (Tabari: Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying "O Muhammad! thou are the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."

-- Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah" from Guillaume's translation, "The Life of Muhammad", [3], page 106.

Response: Neither source is authentic, nor can you demonstrate otherwise.
spiritislife
Posts: 94
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 3:44:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Dear Fatihah,

I have demonstrated with my above examples that the mere words of men and literature can and have inspired and conquered the minds and hearts of more than a nation. So your argument does not prove the Quran or Islam is inspired by God by that criteria.

As for the so called 'miracle' accounts of Muhammad, you cannot prove those exaggerated second-hand stories of him splitting the moon, etc.. are true either, but rather made-up fables by zealous followers after the fact.

Muhammad repeatedly admits in the Quran that he does not have the power to perform any miracles. Would you like me to cite references? I reject the other laughable accounts that came over a hundred years after Muhammad as the unreliable and ridiculously exxagerated accounts that they are.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 3:46:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 12:20:43 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
Yes ! Islam is truly false.

We are never told to call to our own ability to test if a teaching is true, the idea to do so is man made rubbish !

Why would God teach us to find truth one way then change it to another ?, look at this verse explaining the correct way to find truth

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".

So we look at the word and compare all teaching with that !- because we are taught - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness": (2 Tim 3:16)

Were the Apostles kept till last ?

1 Cor 4:9 "For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men".

Every religion contains a portion of truth, rat poison contains 98% food, it's the 2% that's the killer. the word of God must be 100% compatible with the bible !.

I'd like someone to tell me how someone from the Islamic faith is saved. and then explain to me how it compares with the teachings of the bible.

As a wise robot war once said "Nope, for no religion is true and at the same time no religion is false, they all contain bits of the truth (except for any religion endorsed by L. Ron Hubbard) . . ."
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 4:15:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 3:44:50 PM, spiritislife wrote:
Dear Fatihah,

I have demonstrated with my above examples that the mere words of men and literature can and have inspired and conquered the minds and hearts of more than a nation. So your argument does not prove the Quran or Islam is inspired by God by that criteria.

As for the so called 'miracle' accounts of Muhammad, you cannot prove those exaggerated second-hand stories of him splitting the moon, etc.. are true either, but rather made-up fables by zealous followers after the fact.

Muhammad repeatedly admits in the Quran that he does not have the power to perform any miracles. Would you like me to cite references? I reject the other laughable accounts that came over a hundred years after Muhammad as the unreliable and ridiculously exxagerated accounts that they are.

Response: To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.
spiritislife
Posts: 94
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.

I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 5:01:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:
To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.


I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

Response: To the contrary, I've shown your alleged proof to be flawed and once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge. Thus the challenge of the qur'an is still valid.












.
spiritislife
Posts: 94
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 5:20:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago

... once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah.


Lol! There are website which post many "Surahs like it". Look them up. They've taken your challenge. Did they succeeed? Who's the judge? You? Other muslims? Then that is biased, don;t you think? There is no definite criteria by which to judge whether or not their verses would be better than the Quran or alike, or worse. Besides, muslims would ALWAYS say my verse is worse.

Another point is that it is impossible to copy the original style of another artist or literary work, and truly succeed. Even the greatest painter could not perfectly copy one of his own works for example, - let alone someone else trying to mimick his or her style. No one, not even Dante, could copy your own writing. It's an empty, ridiculous challenge.

Quranic challenge is unjust, superficial, and illogical. It is beneath an all-powerful Creator to ask of His creatures to 'copy' something that He has written.

Besides, the inabilty to write something exactly like something or someone else, or copy the expression of another, is absolutely NOT proof of divine inspiration.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 5:33:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 5:20:53 PM, spiritislife wrote:

... once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah.



Lol! There are website which post many "Surahs like it". Look them up. They've taken your challenge. Did they succeeed? Who's the judge? You? Other muslims? Then that is biased, don;t you think? There is no definite criteria by which to judge whether or not their verses would be better than the Quran or alike, or worse. Besides, muslims would ALWAYS say my verse is worse.

Another point is that it is impossible to copy the original style of another artist or literary work, and truly succeed. Even the greatest painter could not perfectly copy one of his own works for example, - let alone someone else trying to mimick his or her style. No one, not even Dante, could copy your own writing. It's an empty, ridiculous challenge.

Quranic challenge is unjust, superficial, and illogical. It is beneath an all-powerful Creator to ask of His creatures to 'copy' something that He has written.

Besides, the inabilty to write something exactly like something or someone else, or copy the expression of another, is absolutely NOT proof of divine inspiration.

Response: And once again, for perhaps the 4th time, you dodge the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, again confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Truth is not based on consensus, so the question of who is the judge is irrational. The simple fact that it is humanly impossible to use speech or literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation is proof that such an act is not possible. Your consistency to dodge the challenge supports this.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 5:49:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 5:01:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:
To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.


I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

Response: To the contrary, I've shown your alleged proof to be flawed and once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge. Thus the challenge of the qur'an is still valid.

The bible has many chapters that the Qur'an doesn't even come close to, please provide one that matches this one by the Apostle John when discribing the new Jerusalem.

How could he have known that everyone of these stones mentioned were anisotropic and not isotropic like diamonds,rubies, garnets etc, that turn black when placed in pure light. it's only in our generation this has been discovered.

Rev 21-
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Only God could have known this !
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 5:56:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 5:49:21 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:01:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:
To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.


I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

Response: To the contrary, I've shown your alleged proof to be flawed and once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge. Thus the challenge of the qur'an is still valid.


The bible has many chapters that the Qur'an doesn't even come close to, please provide one that matches this one by the Apostle John when discribing the new Jerusalem.

How could he have known that everyone of these stones mentioned were anisotropic and not isotropic like diamonds,rubies, garnets etc, that turn black when placed in pure light. it's only in our generation this has been discovered.

Rev 21-
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Only God could have known this !

Response: You would first have to confirm and prove that the verses is even true. You have not. Thus your proof that the bible is from God or inspired by God fails. And with the bible's many discrepancies, we know that it is neither the word or inspired word of God.
Ogan
Posts: 407
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 6:00:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Fatihah:
"And if you are I'm doubt as to what We have sent down to out servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Ogan:
Let me translate the obvious for you, and if you differ you will make a fool of yourself. The quote means this:

Should it be the case that you or I doubt that which was sent down from the Helpers beside Allah to His beloved prophet Muhammad, but you or I are thirsting for the Truth, then if you or I are True, and call upon the same Helpers beside Allah, then you or I can also do likewise. And therefore produce a new beautiful set of Teachings as good as Muhammad's.

Therefore, your next statement that it is "not humanly possible to produce a chapter LIKE the Qur'an" is utterly false and contradicts what surah 2: 23 of the Qur'an actually says! Please do your studies and try to understand before debating and remaining deaf to what others are sincerely trying to point out to you.

SuperRobotWars was right when he said that "…for no religion is true and at the same time no religion is false, they all contain bits of the truth." All religious followers should write that statement on the first page of their Holy Book, along with "There is no Religion higher than Truth!" – tolerance would then follow. But also remember that there are different Paths of equal importance to the way of the Prophet, who do not necessarily write, such as, the Seer, the Saint, the Singer and the Poet.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 6:09:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 5:56:03 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:49:21 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:01:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:
To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.


I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

Response: To the contrary, I've shown your alleged proof to be flawed and once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge. Thus the challenge of the qur'an is still valid.


The bible has many chapters that the Qur'an doesn't even come close to, please provide one that matches this one by the Apostle John when discribing the new Jerusalem.

How could he have known that everyone of these stones mentioned were anisotropic and not isotropic like diamonds,rubies, garnets etc, that turn black when placed in pure light. it's only in our generation this has been discovered.

Rev 21-
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Only God could have known this !

Response: You would first have to confirm and prove that the verses is even true. You have not. Thus your proof that the bible is from God or inspired by God fails. And with the bible's many discrepancies, we know that it is neither the word or inspired word of God.

you miss the point, - the new Jerusalem is said to be provided by "pure light", so only anisotropic stones would sparkle out every colour of the rainbow when used,

How did John know these 12 stones mentioned were all anisotropic ?

He couldn't have known my friend, he wrote it around 2.000 years ago. there's your proof !
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 6:10:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 6:00:21 PM, Ogan wrote:
Fatihah:
"And if you are I'm doubt as to what We have sent down to out servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Ogan:
Let me translate the obvious for you, and if you differ you will make a fool of yourself. The quote means this:

Should it be the case that you or I doubt that which was sent down from the Helpers beside Allah to His beloved prophet Muhammad, but you or I are thirsting for the Truth, then if you or I are True, and call upon the same Helpers beside Allah, then you or I can also do likewise. And therefore produce a new beautiful set of Teachings as good as Muhammad's.

Therefore, your next statement that it is "not humanly possible to produce a chapter LIKE the Qur'an" is utterly false and contradicts what surah 2: 23 of the Qur'an actually says! Please do your studies and try to understand before debating and remaining deaf to what others are sincerely trying to point out to you.

SuperRobotWars was right when he said that "…for no religion is true and at the same time no religion is false, they all contain bits of the truth." All religious followers should write that statement on the first page of their Holy Book, along with "There is no Religion higher than Truth!" – tolerance would then follow. But also remember that there are different Paths of equal importance to the way of the Prophet, who do not necessarily write, such as, the Seer, the Saint, the Singer and the Poet.

Response: A translation would be words with similar meaning, not of different meaning and words which were never stated, as you have posted. Thus your alleged translation is a false interpolation and proves nothing.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 6:15:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 6:09:04 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:56:03 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:49:21 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:01:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:
To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.


I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

Response: To the contrary, I've shown your alleged proof to be flawed and once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge. Thus the challenge of the qur'an is still valid.


The bible has many chapters that the Qur'an doesn't even come close to, please provide one that matches this one by the Apostle John when discribing the new Jerusalem.

How could he have known that everyone of these stones mentioned were anisotropic and not isotropic like diamonds,rubies, garnets etc, that turn black when placed in pure light. it's only in our generation this has been discovered.

Rev 21-
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Only God could have known this !

Response: You would first have to confirm and prove that the verses is even true. You have not. Thus your proof that the bible is from God or inspired by God fails. And with the bible's many discrepancies, we know that it is neither the word or inspired word of God.

you miss the point, - the new Jerusalem is said to be provided by "pure light", so only anisotropic stones would sparkle out every colour of the rainbow when used,

How did John know these 12 stones mentioned were all anisotropic ?

He couldn't have known my friend, he wrote it around 2.000 years ago. there's your proof !

Response: You've missed the point, as you have not proven that the incident concerning John actually took place and even if it did, it would not prove that the bible in it's entirety is the word of inspired word of God, as it is full of discrepancies.
Ogan
Posts: 407
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 6:22:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I rest my case! Why are you all trying to prove something to a completely indifferent fool - a blind one at that? To attempt to do so is as much use as a chocolate fire-guard! Ah me... the letter that killeth.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 6:29:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 6:15:37 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:09:04 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:56:03 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:49:21 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:01:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:
To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.


I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

Response: To the contrary, I've shown your alleged proof to be flawed and once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge. Thus the challenge of the qur'an is still valid.


The bible has many chapters that the Qur'an doesn't even come close to, please provide one that matches this one by the Apostle John when discribing the new Jerusalem.

How could he have known that everyone of these stones mentioned were anisotropic and not isotropic like diamonds,rubies, garnets etc, that turn black when placed in pure light. it's only in our generation this has been discovered.

Rev 21-
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Only God could have known this !

Response: You would first have to confirm and prove that the verses is even true. You have not. Thus your proof that the bible is from God or inspired by God fails. And with the bible's many discrepancies, we know that it is neither the word or inspired word of God.

you miss the point, - the new Jerusalem is said to be provided by "pure light", so only anisotropic stones would sparkle out every colour of the rainbow when used,

How did John know these 12 stones mentioned were all anisotropic ?

He couldn't have known my friend, he wrote it around 2.000 years ago. there's your proof !

Response: You've missed the point, as you have not proven that the incident concerning John actually took place and even if it did, it would not prove that the bible in it's entirety is the word of inspired word of God, as it is full of discrepancies.

you doubt if John wrote this verse ?, you're showing signs of a desperate man, we still have the original manuscripts to compare.

My point here is not to prove the whole bible is the inspired word of God, so let's stay on topic.
I'll can play your game and still show your weakness, - we know the KJV was written in 1611, so who other than God knew these stones were anisotropic in 1611?
forget who wrote the chapter and when, - the fact remains it was written and it fulfills the task. thus proves the Qur'an is false.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 6:41:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 6:29:49 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:15:37 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:09:04 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:56:03 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:49:21 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:01:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:
To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.


I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

Response: To the contrary, I've shown your alleged proof to be flawed and once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge. Thus the challenge of the qur'an is still valid.


The bible has many chapters that the Qur'an doesn't even come close to, please provide one that matches this one by the Apostle John when discribing the new Jerusalem.

How could he have known that everyone of these stones mentioned were anisotropic and not isotropic like diamonds,rubies, garnets etc, that turn black when placed in pure light. it's only in our generation this has been discovered.

Rev 21-
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Only God could have known this !

Response: You would first have to confirm and prove that the verses is even true. You have not. Thus your proof that the bible is from God or inspired by God fails. And with the bible's many discrepancies, we know that it is neither the word or inspired word of God.

you miss the point, - the new Jerusalem is said to be provided by "pure light", so only anisotropic stones would sparkle out every colour of the rainbow when used,

How did John know these 12 stones mentioned were all anisotropic ?

He couldn't have known my friend, he wrote it around 2.000 years ago. there's your proof !

Response: You've missed the point, as you have not proven that the incident concerning John actually took place and even if it did, it would not prove that the bible in it's entirety is the word of inspired word of God, as it is full of discrepancies.

you doubt if John wrote this verse ?, you're showing signs of a desperate man, we still have the original manuscripts to compare.

My point here is not to prove the whole bible is the inspired word of God, so let's stay on topic.
I'll can play your game and still show your weakness, - we know the KJV was written in 1611, so who other than God knew these stones were anisotropic in 1611?
forget who wrote the chapter and when, - the fact remains it was written and it fulfills the task. thus proves the Qur'an is false.

Response: The bible is based on 24, 000 different manuscripts in which no 2 are identical. So you don't have any original manuscript and given the fact that the bible itself contains discrepancy, it is absurd to make such a claim, as a book containing errors is not credible to containing truth. A book of discrepancy can never be proof that the qur'an is false, but that the book itself is false, hence the bible.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 6:50:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 6:41:10 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:29:49 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:15:37 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:09:04 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:56:03 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:49:21 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:01:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:
To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.


I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

Response: To the contrary, I've shown your alleged proof to be flawed and once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge. Thus the challenge of the qur'an is still valid.


The bible has many chapters that the Qur'an doesn't even come close to, please provide one that matches this one by the Apostle John when discribing the new Jerusalem.

How could he have known that everyone of these stones mentioned were anisotropic and not isotropic like diamonds,rubies, garnets etc, that turn black when placed in pure light. it's only in our generation this has been discovered.

Rev 21-
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Only God could have known this !

Response: You would first have to confirm and prove that the verses is even true. You have not. Thus your proof that the bible is from God or inspired by God fails. And with the bible's many discrepancies, we know that it is neither the word or inspired word of God.

you miss the point, - the new Jerusalem is said to be provided by "pure light", so only anisotropic stones would sparkle out every colour of the rainbow when used,

How did John know these 12 stones mentioned were all anisotropic ?

He couldn't have known my friend, he wrote it around 2.000 years ago. there's your proof !

Response: You've missed the point, as you have not proven that the incident concerning John actually took place and even if it did, it would not prove that the bible in it's entirety is the word of inspired word of God, as it is full of discrepancies.

you doubt if John wrote this verse ?, you're showing signs of a desperate man, we still have the original manuscripts to compare.

My point here is not to prove the whole bible is the inspired word of God, so let's stay on topic.
I'll can play your game and still show your weakness, - we know the KJV was written in 1611, so who other than God knew these stones were anisotropic in 1611?
forget who wrote the chapter and when, - the fact remains it was written and it fulfills the task. thus proves the Qur'an is false.

Response: The bible is based on 24, 000 different manuscripts in which no 2 are identical. So you don't have any original manuscript and given the fact that the bible itself contains discrepancy, it is absurd to make such a claim, as a book containing errors is not credible to containing truth. A book of discrepancy can never be proof that the qur'an is false, but that the book itself is false, hence the bible.

Again you're still off topic, we agree the chapter was written in 1611, it doesn't matter where it was written,or by whom, it fulfills the task perfectly ! - thus proves the qur'an and the religion false.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 7:04:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 6:50:05 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:41:10 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:29:49 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:15:37 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:09:04 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:56:03 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:49:21 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:01:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:
To the contrary, you've demonstrated nothing, as your logic is based on the concept, " it's true because it says so", which any reasonable person can see is flawed logic. And when asked to take the challenge yourself, you dodged it, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. As for proof that Muhammad performed other miracles, the challenge of the qur'an confirms that it is from Allah. The qur' an itself contains no errors or guidance which is not just, thus this is proof that the qur'an and sunnah is the truth and Allah and Muhammad is sincere in telling the truth, which would mean that the miracles mentioned are true as well. Lastly, there is no verse in the qur'an which states that Muhammad never performed any miracles.

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.


I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

Response: To the contrary, I've shown your alleged proof to be flawed and once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge. Thus the challenge of the qur'an is still valid.


The bible has many chapters that the Qur'an doesn't even come close to, please provide one that matches this one by the Apostle John when discribing the new Jerusalem.

How could he have known that everyone of these stones mentioned were anisotropic and not isotropic like diamonds,rubies, garnets etc, that turn black when placed in pure light. it's only in our generation this has been discovered.

Rev 21-
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Only God could have known this !

Response: You would first have to confirm and prove that the verses is even true. You have not. Thus your proof that the bible is from God or inspired by God fails. And with the bible's many discrepancies, we know that it is neither the word or inspired word of God.

you miss the point, - the new Jerusalem is said to be provided by "pure light", so only anisotropic stones would sparkle out every colour of the rainbow when used,

How did John know these 12 stones mentioned were all anisotropic ?

He couldn't have known my friend, he wrote it around 2.000 years ago. there's your proof !

Response: You've missed the point, as you have not proven that the incident concerning John actually took place and even if it did, it would not prove that the bible in it's entirety is the word of inspired word of God, as it is full of discrepancies.

you doubt if John wrote this verse ?, you're showing signs of a desperate man, we still have the original manuscripts to compare.

My point here is not to prove the whole bible is the inspired word of God, so let's stay on topic.
I'll can play your game and still show your weakness, - we know the KJV was written in 1611, so who other than God knew these stones were anisotropic in 1611?
forget who wrote the chapter and when, - the fact remains it was written and it fulfills the task. thus proves the Qur'an is false.

Response: The bible is based on 24, 000 different manuscripts in which no 2 are identical. So you don't have any original manuscript and given the fact that the bible itself contains discrepancy, it is absurd to make such a claim, as a book containing errors is not credible to containing truth. A book of discrepancy can never be proof that the qur'an is false, but that the book itself is false, hence the bible.

Again you're still off topic, we agree the chapter was written in 1611, it doesn't matter where it was written,or by whom, it fulfills the task perfectly ! - thus proves the qur'an and the religion false.

Response: Your logic is severely flawed. For even if it was true, that does not make the qur'an false, it just makes what was mentioned true as well. For the qur'an to be false, you would have to show falsehood in the qur'an, not truth in the bible. That is like suggesting that because 2 plus 2 is 4, that proves that 3 plus 3 isn't 6. Your logic is absurd. And a task that fulfills on paper is not proof that the event took place in reality, further exposing the flaw in your logic. Once again, you've demonstrate not that the qur'an is false, but that that you have no proof that the bible is true.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2010 7:21:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 7:04:04 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:50:05 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:41:10 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:29:49 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:15:37 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 6:09:04 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:56:03 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:49:21 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/15/2010 5:01:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 4:41:16 PM, spiritislife wrote:

Dear Fatihah,

I do not seem to understand why you say my logic is "It's true because it says so". What says what? I never defended the Bible being true in my last posts. I made the point that your argument is faulty and does not prove the Quran as being inspired by God. It is more you who are saying "The Quran is true and inspired because it says so." But you cannot use the Quran itself to prove that it is inspired. This is circular reasoning.

Furthermore, you have not brought forth a shred of proof to counter my original post other than "it must be from God because nobody has ever produced anything like it". This is not true and furthermore I and many others do not accept this flawed and biased challenge as a being valid standard to bring forth as proof the Quran is from God.


I can bring forth sound argumants that the Quran indeed are not the words of God but rather they originate from another source or are from man-made compiled sources. I can also argue that the Quran is full of contradictions, has NOT been perfectly preserved, and the Quran of today is different from what existed at one time. I can also argue that Islam is not unified and one as it claims considering their are various interpretations of the Quran and over 72 different sects within Islam!

By the way, a book cannot be considered and does not constitute a miracle. And the Quran is by no means a miracle. Many others have actually produced 'Surahs like it' throughout history. However, no muslim will ever admit to this or they will be considered unbelieving apostates! It's an empty biased challenge. Sort of like if I said "I challenge you to find a woman more beautiful than my wife!" Lol! By who's standards? Of course, I can say no one can ever be more beautiful than my wife, but my standard of judging is biased, of course.

Response: To the contrary, I've shown your alleged proof to be flawed and once again you've dodged the challenge to produce a chapter like the qur'an yourself, confirming your denial to the fact that the qur'an is from Allah. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge. Thus the challenge of the qur'an is still valid.


The bible has many chapters that the Qur'an doesn't even come close to, please provide one that matches this one by the Apostle John when discribing the new Jerusalem.

How could he have known that everyone of these stones mentioned were anisotropic and not isotropic like diamonds,rubies, garnets etc, that turn black when placed in pure light. it's only in our generation this has been discovered.

Rev 21-
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Only God could have known this !

Response: You would first have to confirm and prove that the verses is even true. You have not. Thus your proof that the bible is from God or inspired by God fails. And with the bible's many discrepancies, we know that it is neither the word or inspired word of God.

you miss the point, - the new Jerusalem is said to be provided by "pure light", so only anisotropic stones would sparkle out every colour of the rainbow when used,

How did John know these 12 stones mentioned were all anisotropic ?

He couldn't have known my friend, he wrote it around 2.000 years ago. there's your proof !

Response: You've missed the point, as you have not proven that the incident concerning John actually took place and even if it did, it would not prove that the bible in it's entirety is the word of inspired word of God, as it is full of discrepancies.

you doubt if John wrote this verse ?, you're showing signs of a desperate man, we still have the original manuscripts to compare.

My point here is not to prove the whole bible is the inspired word of God, so let's stay on topic.
I'll can play your game and still show your weakness, - we know the KJV was written in 1611, so who other than God knew these stones were anisotropic in 1611?
forget who wrote the chapter and when, - the fact remains it was written and it fulfills the task. thus proves the Qur'an is false.

Response: The bible is based on 24, 000 different manuscripts in which no 2 are identical. So you don't have any original manuscript and given the fact that the bible itself contains discrepancy, it is absurd to make such a claim, as a book containing errors is not credible to containing truth. A book of discrepancy can never be proof that the qur'an is false, but that the book itself is false, hence the bible.

Again you're still off topic, we agree the chapter was written in 1611, it doesn't matter where it was written,or by whom, it fulfills the task perfectly ! - thus proves the qur'an and the religion false.

Response: Your logic is severely flawed. For even if it was true, that does not make the qur'an false, it just makes what was mentioned true as well. For the qur'an to be false, you would have to show falsehood in the qur'an, not truth in the bible. That is like suggesting that because 2 plus 2 is 4, that proves that 3 plus 3 isn't 6. Your logic is absurd. And a task that fulfills on paper is not proof that the event took place in reality, further exposing the flaw in your logic. Once again, you've demonstrate not that the qur'an is false, but that that you have no proof that the bible is true.

I'm not here to prove the bible is true, so I'm not trying to, the task was set, and fulfilled, so setting the task as a way to prove it's authenticity was wrong, thus shows the qur'an to be wrong and everyone who follow it. - who other than God could have inspired the chapter (Rev 21) ? - nobody ! so the qur'an is exposed as being flawed to the hilt.

A true God doesn't set out tasks saying "it cannot be done" then gets proved wrong, your God might, but mine doesn't