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Polygamy in Islam

gavin.ogden
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12/15/2010 11:00:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Is the practice of polygamy acceptable? I don't know. Perhaps in modern day America, it is not, but it certainly is acceptable in many places, particularly in Muslim countries. Some make horrible arguments for polygamy, but others have very good points. I attached just one video. This man is obviously somewhat mistaken in his view of the western world, but he makes some good points. All serious feedback is most welcome, thanks.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
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12/15/2010 11:16:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 11:00:58 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
Is the practice of polygamy acceptable? I don't know. Perhaps in modern day America, it is not, but it certainly is acceptable in many places, particularly in Muslim countries. Some make horrible arguments for polygamy, but others have very good points. I attached just one video. This man is obviously somewhat mistaken in his view of the western world, but he makes some good points. All serious feedback is most welcome, thanks.



Response: The whole purpose of marriage in islam for a man to care, provide and financially support his wife. And since men are the protectors of women, the intent of polygamy is to protect, care and provide for other women. Marriage simply due to sexual reasons or lust is forbidden. This is also the reason why a woman is not allowed to have more than one husband, as a woman is not supposed to take care of a man in the manner stated above.

His assessment of the West is not completely accurate, as there are men and women who don't committ adultery or fornication and are modest, but in comparison to the rest of the western society, it's practically rare and hardly noticeable.
gavin.ogden
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12/15/2010 11:43:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 11:16:42 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 11:00:58 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
Is the practice of polygamy acceptable? I don't know. Perhaps in modern day America, it is not, but it certainly is acceptable in many places, particularly in Muslim countries. Some make horrible arguments for polygamy, but others have very good points. I attached just one video. This man is obviously somewhat mistaken in his view of the western world, but he makes some good points. All serious feedback is most welcome, thanks.



Response: The whole purpose of marriage in islam for a man to care, provide and financially support his wife. And since men are the protectors of women, the intent of polygamy is to protect, care and provide for other women. Marriage simply due to sexual reasons or lust is forbidden. This is also the reason why a woman is not allowed to have more than one husband, as a woman is not supposed to take care of a man in the manner stated above.

His assessment of the West is not completely accurate, as there are men and women who don't committ adultery or fornication and are modest, but in comparison to the rest of the western society, it's practically rare and hardly noticeable.

So, the reasons he gives are erroneous then? What about women who do not choose to share their husband with other women? What are their options?
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
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12/15/2010 12:12:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 11:43:36 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/15/2010 11:16:42 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/15/2010 11:00:58 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
Is the practice of polygamy acceptable? I don't know. Perhaps in modern day America, it is not, but it certainly is acceptable in many places, particularly in Muslim countries. Some make horrible arguments for polygamy, but others have very good points. I attached just one video. This man is obviously somewhat mistaken in his view of the western world, but he makes some good points. All serious feedback is most welcome, thanks.



Response: The whole purpose of marriage in islam for a man to care, provide and financially support his wife. And since men are the protectors of women, the intent of polygamy is to protect, care and provide for other women. Marriage simply due to sexual reasons or lust is forbidden. This is also the reason why a woman is not allowed to have more than one husband, as a woman is not supposed to take care of a man in the manner stated above.

His assessment of the West is not completely accurate, as there are men and women who don't committ adultery or fornication and are modest, but in comparison to the rest of the western society, it's practically rare and hardly noticeable.

So, the reasons he gives are erroneous then? What about women who do not choose to share their husband with other women? What are their options?

Response: She would have to find a husband who would not want to share a wife, or simply let go of her desire to be the only wife.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/15/2010 12:28:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree with him, and his view on the Western world is not much mistaken. He mentions what the norms in the West are. When he says that no man has pride to have one wife, he simply combines the norm and the statistics, which support him. Most people in the West fornicate.
gavin.ogden
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12/15/2010 2:15:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 12:28:30 PM, Mirza wrote:
I agree with him, and his view on the Western world is not much mistaken. He mentions what the norms in the West are. When he says that no man has pride to have one wife, he simply combines the norm and the statistics, which support him. Most people in the West fornicate.

I have NEVER been unfaithful, and I know MANY others like me. In fact, I'll bet that the statistics would show most married couples in the U.S. are faithful. The norm is not for people to cheat on their significant other, that is the unfortunate exception. As far as I can tell, Polygamy is just an excuse for sleeping with multiple partners. This is still fornication, but is disguised with the word 'marriage'.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/15/2010 2:58:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 2:15:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I have NEVER been unfaithful, and I know MANY others like me.
I said fornication, not adultery. I also disagreed with the notion that "all" are unfaithful.

In fact, I'll bet that the statistics would show most married couples in the U.S. are faithful.
Infidelity is one of the top reasons for divorce. Look up the following:

- Infidelity statistics
- Divorce rates

The norm is not for people to cheat on their significant other, that is the unfortunate exception. As far as I can tell, Polygamy is just an excuse for sleeping with multiple partners. This is still fornication, but is disguised with the word 'marriage'.
It is not fornication. You do a lot of things to get to your know partner, you fall in love with her heart, and then get married. You agree to it with your other wife, and you do not break an oath. There can be very good reasons to marry multiple wives. It can be good for the first wife, too. There are pious women who allow their husbands to marry other wives. It can be that a woman is aging, but has nobody to take care of her, except for one who is already married.
gavin.ogden
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12/15/2010 3:43:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 2:58:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/15/2010 2:15:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I have NEVER been unfaithful, and I know MANY others like me.
I said fornication, not adultery. I also disagreed with the notion that "all" are unfaithful.

This thread has nothing to do with sex outside of marriage, and I assume that when you say"all", you are implicating that "most" people are unfaithful. I disagree.

In fact, I'll bet that the statistics would show most married couples in the U.S. are faithful.
Infidelity is one of the top reasons for divorce. Look up the following:

- Infidelity statistics
- Divorce rates

While these might be the top reasons for divorce, the divorce rate is about 50%. Since these are only two reasons why 50% divorce, that still proves my point that most people in the states are faithful, and do not require multiple partners. Please keep in mind, I am not saying polygamy is evil or even wrong. In fact, I believe nature tells us it is right. In most mammals, there are several females to each male, but this is to breed the strongest young, not satisfy sexual urges as this man clearly states in the video.

The norm is not for people to cheat on their significant other, that is the unfortunate exception. As far as I can tell, Polygamy is just an excuse for sleeping with multiple partners. This is still fornication, but is disguised with the word 'marriage'.
It is not fornication. You do a lot of things to get to your know partner, you fall in love with her heart, and then get married. You agree to it with your other wife, and you do not break an oath. There can be very good reasons to marry multiple wives. It can be good for the first wife, too. There are pious women who allow their husbands to marry other wives. It can be that a woman is aging, but has nobody to take care of her, except for one who is already married.

What if your current wife does not agree? Is the man required to accept his wife's wishes? If not, this point is moot.
Mirza
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12/15/2010 4:15:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 3:43:56 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
This thread has nothing to do with sex outside of marriage, and I assume that when you say"all", you are implicating that "most" people are unfaithful. I disagree.
It has. I talked about pride of having had one wife only, which means no fornication before or after. Most people in our part of the world fornicate.

While these might be the top reasons for divorce, the divorce rate is about 50%. Since these are only two reasons why 50% divorce, that still proves my point that most people in the states are faithful, and do not require multiple partners. Please keep in mind, I am not saying polygamy is evil or even wrong. In fact, I believe nature tells us it is right. In most mammals, there are several females to each male, but this is to breed the strongest young, not satisfy sexual urges as this man clearly states in the video.
The divorce rate is higher in some countries. It would be higher had all couples found out about adultery of their spouses.

What if your current wife does not agree? Is the man required to accept his wife's wishes? If not, this point is moot.
I do not see anything wrong in a man taking another wife without telling his current one, except if the marriage contract says that the male must not take another wife, or if the wife asks the male whether or not he has taken another wife. In this case, he must not lie. So, if a woman does not wish for her husband to take another wife (ever during their marriage), then it can be applied to the marriage contract, so there is no problem. I think my future wife, for instance, would do that, but I do not desire more than one wife.
gavin.ogden
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12/15/2010 4:41:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 4:15:08 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/15/2010 3:43:56 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
This thread has nothing to do with sex outside of marriage, and I assume that when you say"all", you are implicating that "most" people are unfaithful. I disagree.
It has. I talked about pride of having had one wife only, which means no fornication before or after. Most people in our part of the world fornicate.

Again, fornication has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. I agree that most people have sex outside of marriage, but we are talking about marriage, in and of itself.

While these might be the top reasons for divorce, the divorce rate is about 50%. Since these are only two reasons why 50% divorce, that still proves my point that most people in the states are faithful, and do not require multiple partners. Please keep in mind, I am not saying polygamy is evil or even wrong. In fact, I believe nature tells us it is right. In most mammals, there are several females to each male, but this is to breed the strongest young, not satisfy sexual urges as this man clearly states in the video.
The divorce rate is higher in some countries. It would be higher had all couples found out about adultery of their spouses.

This is an opinion.

What if your current wife does not agree? Is the man required to accept his wife's wishes? If not, this point is moot.
I do not see anything wrong in a man taking another wife without telling his current one, except if the marriage contract says that the male must not take another wife, or if the wife asks the male whether or not he has taken another wife. In this case, he must not lie. So, if a woman does not wish for her husband to take another wife (ever during their marriage), then it can be applied to the marriage contract, so there is no problem. I think my future wife, for instance, would do that, but I do not desire more than one wife.

This, I like. However, I believe it should work the other way around. If the man wants multiple wives, he should put that in the marriage contract. Afterall, the woman does not even have the option of multiple husbands.
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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12/15/2010 4:54:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 11:00:58 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
Is the practice of polygamy acceptable? I don't know. Perhaps in modern day America, it is not, but it certainly is acceptable in many places, particularly in Muslim countries. Some make horrible arguments for polygamy, but others have very good points. I attached just one video. This man is obviously somewhat mistaken in his view of the western world, but he makes some good points. All serious feedback is most welcome, thanks.

Not going to watch the video, but one of the bigger reasons that polygamy is illegal in America is because marriage is a legal contract that grants privileges not feasibly capable of being shared between more than two people. This is not the case with marriage in the middle east.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
gavin.ogden
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12/15/2010 5:02:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 4:54:09 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 12/15/2010 11:00:58 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
Is the practice of polygamy acceptable? I don't know. Perhaps in modern day America, it is not, but it certainly is acceptable in many places, particularly in Muslim countries. Some make horrible arguments for polygamy, but others have very good points. I attached just one video. This man is obviously somewhat mistaken in his view of the western world, but he makes some good points. All serious feedback is most welcome, thanks.

Not going to watch the video, but one of the bigger reasons that polygamy is illegal in America is because marriage is a legal contract that grants privileges not feasibly capable of being shared between more than two people. This is not the case with marriage in the middle east.

Wow, great answer! That might sum up the thread, though. I guess the only question left is, if the marriage laws in the states were changed, would people get on the polygamy bandwagon? I think they would not, however, I have to say I do not believe there is anything wrong with someone having multiple partners. If everyone is clean, it just seems like the natural way to me. I wonder if my wife would go for it... Doubtful.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/15/2010 5:12:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 4:41:25 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
Again, fornication has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. I agree that most people have sex outside of marriage, but we are talking about marriage, in and of itself.
No, but my point is that the person in the video is not inherently wrong about the West. When he says "all" fornicate or adulterate, he probably combines statistics with norms. It is a norm to fornicate, it is not horrible to adulterate (Western perspective), and it takes place in high amounts. That is why he says "all" Westerners, I think.

This is an opinion.
Not really. It is correlated. A problem creates problem upon problem.

This, I like. However, I believe it should work the other way around. If the man wants multiple wives, he should put that in the marriage contract. Afterall, the woman does not even have the option of multiple husbands.
Well, if the wife wants to make sure that her future husband only marries her, it can be applied to the marriage contract. It is simple. I also do not think women are capable of handling too much testosterone (men can be filthy beings from time to time).
gavin.ogden
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12/15/2010 5:47:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 5:12:54 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/15/2010 4:41:25 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
Again, fornication has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. I agree that most people have sex outside of marriage, but we are talking about marriage, in and of itself.
No, but my point is that the person in the video is not inherently wrong about the West. When he says "all" fornicate or adulterate, he probably combines statistics with norms. It is a norm to fornicate, it is not horrible to adulterate (Western perspective), and it takes place in high amounts. That is why he says "all" Westerners, I think.

This is an opinion.
Not really. It is correlated. A problem creates problem upon problem.

This, I like. However, I believe it should work the other way around. If the man wants multiple wives, he should put that in the marriage contract. Afterall, the woman does not even have the option of multiple husbands.
Well, if the wife wants to make sure that her future husband only marries her, it can be applied to the marriage contract. It is simple. I also do not think women are capable of handling too much testosterone (men can be filthy beings from time to time).

So can women, I promise.
Damodar
Posts: 9
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12/25/2010 1:55:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Its not very logical that in the West a man is glorified who can debauch a new woman every night, yet condemned if he marries and maintains more than one woman.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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12/25/2010 2:28:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/25/2010 1:55:40 PM, Damodar wrote:
Its not very logical that in the West a man is glorified who can debauch a new woman every night, yet condemned if he marries and maintains more than one woman.

This. I also agree (I forgot with whom) that if you wish to have multiple wives/husbands that should be added to the marriage contract, not the other way around. And you will notice I did say "/husbands" because if men are allowed to have multiple wives the only way to be fair is allow he multiple husbands.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
PARADIGM_L0ST
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12/25/2010 7:39:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is not fornication. You do a lot of things to get to your know partner, you fall in love with her heart, and then get married. You agree to it with your other wife, and you do not break an oath. There can be very good reasons to marry multiple wives. It can be good for the first wife, too. There are pious women who allow their husbands to marry other wives. It can be that a woman is aging, but has nobody to take care of her, except for one who is already married.[/qs]

Then by the same token a woman should reasonably be able to have multiple husbands.

Why the double standard? What if HE is barren? What is SHE supposed to do?

Interesting when the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
wamba
Posts: 688
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12/25/2010 10:57:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/25/2010 1:55:40 PM, Damodar wrote:
Its not very logical that in the West a man is glorified who can debauch a new woman every night, yet condemned if he marries and maintains more than one woman.

Protip: Generalizing 1/2 of the globe is probably going to make you look like an idiot.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/28/2010 4:10:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/25/2010 7:39:02 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Then by the same token a woman should reasonably be able to have multiple husbands.

Why the double standard? What if HE is barren? What is SHE supposed to do?

Interesting when the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it?
Have you read what I've written here?
PARADIGM_L0ST
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12/28/2010 4:35:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Have you read what I've written here?:

Humor me by reminding me.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/28/2010 4:49:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 4:35:26 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Humor me by reminding me.
It seems like since you came back, you have little sense of humour. You're trying to play it hard, but you're trying too hard.

If you read what I wrote, you would realize that polygamy is optional for the male. For one, a female isn't forced into polygamy. For two, a female can tell her fiancé that she doesn't want him to marry other women, and that can be in the marriage contract. Lastly, the theological argument is that females will surpass males in number, hence more men for one female is not accepted under the theological umbrella.
gavin.ogden
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12/28/2010 5:13:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 4:49:25 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/28/2010 4:35:26 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Humor me by reminding me.
It seems like since you came back, you have little sense of humour. You're trying to play it hard, but you're trying too hard.

If you read what I wrote, you would realize that polygamy is optional for the male. For one, a female isn't forced into polygamy. For two, a female can tell her fiancé that she doesn't want him to marry other women, and that can be in the marriage contract. Lastly, the theological argument is that females will surpass males in number, hence more men for one female is not accepted under the theological umbrella.

What about the woman having multiple husbands? That seems fair. In fact, I would fully support polygamy if the stakes were the same for all.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/28/2010 5:57:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It seems like since you came back, you have little sense of humour. You're trying to play it hard, but you're trying too hard.:

Trying to too hard at what? Humor?

If you read what I wrote, you would realize that polygamy is optional for the male. For one, a female isn't forced into polygamy. For two, a female can tell her fiancé that she doesn't want him to marry other women, and that can be in the marriage contract. Lastly, the theological argument is that females will surpass males in number, hence more men for one female is not accepted under the theological umbrella.:

And none of that gives any good reason why women cannot take on multiple husbands.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Mirza
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12/29/2010 9:45:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 5:57:04 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Trying to too hard at what? Humor?
No, at being tough.

And none of that gives any good reason why women cannot take on multiple husbands.
Yes it does. The role of a woman is not to spread her wealth to her husband, but the contrary is obligatory. One woman spreading her wealth and working for all the males would not work. Things would not go as they do when the marital system is with one male only and one female. If, however, a female doesn't mind another woman with her husband, it can be done. If she does, she should have that in the marriage contract. There's no such thing as multiple men for one woman in Islam; thanks, but keep it for yourselves. If you think a woman is capable of handling such burdens, good luck.
gavin.ogden
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12/29/2010 11:44:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/29/2010 9:45:21 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/28/2010 5:57:04 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Trying to too hard at what? Humor?
No, at being tough.

And none of that gives any good reason why women cannot take on multiple husbands.
Yes it does. The role of a woman is not to spread her wealth to her husband, but the contrary is obligatory. One woman spreading her wealth and working for all the males would not work. Things would not go as they do when the marital system is with one male only and one female. If, however, a female doesn't mind another woman with her husband, it can be done. If she does, she should have that in the marriage contract. There's no such thing as multiple men for one woman in Islam; thanks, but keep it for yourselves. If you think a woman is capable of handling such burdens, good luck.

The most ignorant and chauvinistic thing I've seen from Mirza. Basically, just lost all credibility on this subject.