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The Wisdom of Zen (vsDiscordianism)

GeoLaureate8
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12/15/2010 8:15:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In light of the recent spur of Discordianism/Absurdism amidst these forums, let us not forgot the great wisdom of Zen, a school of thought which Discordianism seems to take root from (and a bit from Existentialism, though even Existential ideals were embraced by Zen long before Western Existential thought).

However, Zen and Discordianism differ in many ways, in fact, the only thing they actually have in common is the attitude towards life and a similar essence, otherwise the actual doctrines, tenets, and practices are different. (You'd be surprised to find out all the other doctrines that Discordianism has i.e. Law of Fives, Sacred Chao, the two deities Eris and Discordia, Law of Eristic Escalation, POEE, etc.)

Zen of course is a combination of Buddhism and Taoism started by a man named Bodhidharma around 500 C.E. It's doctrines are clear, concise, and applicable to experience and aren't as muddled with extra baggage like the tenets of Discordianism. Below are some Zen proverbs, or what can also be considered koans. These aren't necessarily the doctrines of Zen (the Zen doctrine can be found in the Lankavatara Sutra), they're just sayings by Zen masters and the like.

Zen Proverbs:

- Before enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water. After enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water.

- At any given moment, I open my eyes and exist. And before that, during all eternity, what was there? Nothing.

- If you cannot find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

- Life is like stepping onto a boat that is about to sail out to sea and sink.

- Nothing is exactly as it seems, nor is it otherwise.

- Everyday life is the way.

- Even a good thing isn't as good as nothing.

- If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

- We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want.

- The emperor asked Bodhidharma, "How much karmic merit have I earned by ordaining Buddhist monks, building monasteries, having sutras copied, and commissioning Buddha images?"
Bodhidharma answered, "None. Good deeds done with selfish intent bring no merit."
The emperor then asked Bodhidharma, "So what is the highest meaning of noble truth?"
Bodhidharma answered, "There is no noble truth, there is only void."
The emperor then asked Bodhidharma, "Then, who is standing before me?"
Bodhidharma answered, "I know not, your Majesty."

- Bodhidharma opened his eyes and asked, "What do you want standing here so long?"
"Please, Master help me settle my mind."
"Give me your mind, I'll settle it for you."
"But I cannot find my mind."
"I have already settled your mind for you completely."

- A samurai once asked Zen Master Hakuin where he would go after he died.
Hakuin answered 'How am I supposed to know?'
'How do you not know? You're a Zen master!' exclaimed the samurai.
'Yes, but not a dead one,' Hakuin answered.

http://en.wikiquote.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/16/2010 2:18:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/16/2010 12:58:25 AM, Puck wrote:
Congrats Freedo. You are a spur.

Lol. While Freedo may be the only advocate, Discordianism has still got a lot of attention here whether it be from supporters or from those who oppose it.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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12/17/2010 2:38:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/15/2010 8:15:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
In light of the recent spur of Discordianism/Absurdism amidst these forums, let us not forgot the great wisdom of Zen, a school of thought which Discordianism seems to take root from (and a bit from Existentialism, though even Existential ideals were embraced by Zen long before Western Existential thought).

However, Zen and Discordianism differ in many ways, in fact, the only thing they actually have in common is the attitude towards life and a similar essence, otherwise the actual doctrines, tenets, and practices are different. (You'd be surprised to find out all the other doctrines that Discordianism has i.e. Law of Fives, Sacred Chao, the two deities Eris and Discordia, Law of Eristic Escalation, POEE, etc.)

Zen of course is a combination of Buddhism and Taoism started by a man named Bodhidharma around 500 C.E. It's doctrines are clear, concise, and applicable to experience and aren't as muddled with extra baggage like the tenets of Discordianism. Below are some Zen proverbs, or what can also be considered koans. These aren't necessarily the doctrines of Zen (the Zen doctrine can be found in the Lankavatara Sutra), they're just sayings by Zen masters and the like.



Zen Proverbs:

- Before enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water. After enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water.

- At any given moment, I open my eyes and exist. And before that, during all eternity, what was there? Nothing.

- If you cannot find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

- Life is like stepping onto a boat that is about to sail out to sea and sink.

- Nothing is exactly as it seems, nor is it otherwise.

- Everyday life is the way.

- Even a good thing isn't as good as nothing.

- If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

- We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want.


- The emperor asked Bodhidharma, "How much karmic merit have I earned by ordaining Buddhist monks, building monasteries, having sutras copied, and commissioning Buddha images?"
Bodhidharma answered, "None. Good deeds done with selfish intent bring no merit."
The emperor then asked Bodhidharma, "So what is the highest meaning of noble truth?"
Bodhidharma answered, "There is no noble truth, there is only void."
The emperor then asked Bodhidharma, "Then, who is standing before me?"
Bodhidharma answered, "I know not, your Majesty."

- Bodhidharma opened his eyes and asked, "What do you want standing here so long?"
"Please, Master help me settle my mind."
"Give me your mind, I'll settle it for you."
"But I cannot find my mind."
"I have already settled your mind for you completely."

- A samurai once asked Zen Master Hakuin where he would go after he died.
Hakuin answered 'How am I supposed to know?'
'How do you not know? You're a Zen master!' exclaimed the samurai.
'Yes, but not a dead one,' Hakuin answered.


http://en.wikiquote.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Don't you get that stuff from fortune cookies ?
I could have made a better religion than Buddha.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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12/17/2010 3:11:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/17/2010 2:38:24 PM, vardas0antras wrote:

Don't you get that stuff from fortune cookies ?
I could have made a better religion than Buddha.

Ignorance at its best.
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/17/2010 7:16:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/17/2010 2:38:24 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
Don't you get that stuff from fortune cookies ?
I could have made a better religion than Buddha.

LMAO. Those aren't quotes from Buddha. Those are quotes from various Zen masters. As I already stated, those statements aren't from the actual doctrines, they are called Koans which are statements that Zen masters tell the students to help them come to realizations. The Koans usually make paradoxical statements, contain passages of irony, or are simply witty.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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12/17/2010 8:40:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/17/2010 7:16:56 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/17/2010 2:38:24 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
Don't you get that stuff from fortune cookies ?
I could have made a better religion than Buddha.

LMAO. Those aren't quotes from Buddha. Those are quotes from various Zen masters. As I already stated, those statements aren't from the actual doctrines, they are called Koans which are statements that Zen masters tell the students to help them come to realizations. The Koans usually make paradoxical statements, contain passages of irony, or are simply witty. I could find a 12 year old who could make this stuff up in half a hour, no problem.

Those may not be quotes from Buddha (didn't pay attention and Im human, get over it) but I still could make a better religion than he did. Koan or not this could be found in fortune cookies. Just give me ten minutes and Ill make up something similar.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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12/17/2010 8:41:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/17/2010 3:11:27 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 12/17/2010 2:38:24 PM, vardas0antras wrote:

Don't you get that stuff from fortune cookies ?
I could have made a better religion than Buddha.

Ignorance at its best.

Surely your response is more informative and not an assertion.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/17/2010 8:47:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/17/2010 8:40:07 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
Those may not be quotes from Buddha (didn't pay attention and Im human, get over it) but I still could make a better religion than he did.

What constitutes as a "better religion"? What are the qualifiers that would make it better?

Koan or not this could be found in fortune cookies.

That's actually not true. Fortune cookies merely give vague statements about what will happen in your life on that day. These Zen koans/proverbs are nothing like that.

Just give me ten minutes and Ill make up something similar.

Just because you could make up "something similar" doesn't mean it is of equal value, equal profundity, or even originality. It would be a futile exercise on your part.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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12/18/2010 9:09:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/17/2010 8:47:37 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/17/2010 8:40:07 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
Those may not be quotes from Buddha (didn't pay attention and Im human, get over it) but I still could make a better religion than he did.

What constitutes as a "better religion"? What are the qualifiers that would make it better?

I would say it is the better religion if it is more fruitful

Koan or not this could be found in fortune cookies.

That's actually not true. Fortune cookies merely give vague statements about what will happen in your life on that day. These Zen koans/proverbs are nothing like that.

I've heard that some fortune cookies are like that.

Just give me ten minutes and Ill make up something similar.

Just because you could make up "something similar" doesn't mean it is of equal value, equal profundity, or even originality. It would be a futile exercise on your part.

uhmmm what you're trying to say is that I couldn't make up a better religion than Buddha ? Seriously.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ