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Breaking News! Atheists stumped by dictionary

SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/23/2016 4:05:25 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
source: Merriam-Webster collegiate dictionary 11 edition, which is the dictionary they host on their website that gives the "full definitions". The "simple definitions" come from a learners dictionary, which sacrifices accuracy for the sake of teaching language quicker. Obviously, we are going to use the adult definitions.

~~~

Full Definition of atheist
.: one who believes that there is no deity

~~~

Full Definition of deity
plural deities
1
a : the rank or essential nature of a god : divinity
b capitalized : god 1, supreme being
2
.: a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece>
3
.: one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful

~~~

Full Definition of god
1
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
.: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3
.: a person or thing of supreme value
4
.: a powerful ruler

~~~

Full Definition of supreme
1
.: highest in rank or authority <the supreme commander>
2
.: highest in degree or quality <supreme endurance in war and in labour " R. W. Emerson>
3
.: ultimate, final <the supreme sacrifice>

~~~

Full Definition of ultimate
1
a : most remote in space or time : farthest
b : last in a progression or series : final <their ultimate destination was Paris>
c : eventual 2 <they hoped for ultimate success>
d : the best or most extreme of its kind : utmost <the ultimate sacrifice>
2
.: arrived at as the last result <the ultimate question>
3
a : basic, fundamental <the ultimate nature of things " A. N. Whitehead>
b : original 1 <the ultimate source>
c : incapable of further analysis, division, or separation

~~~

Full Definition of reality
plural realities
1
.: the quality or state of being real
2
a (1) : a real event, entity, or state of affairs <his dream became a reality> (2) : the totality of real things and events <trying to escape from reality>
b : something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily
3
.: television programming that features videos of actual occurrences (as a police chase, stunt, or natural disaster) "often used attributively <reality TV>

~~~~~~

Feel free to say "Amen" when you see it.

Feel free to make a fool of yourself if you attempt to deny the truth.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/23/2016 5:07:56 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
Another bonus definition.

~~~

Full Definition of agnostic
1
.: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2
.: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>

~~~

I am definitely an agnostic. Anyone who is honest is an agnostic.

Belief in the existence of God is taken on faith. That is what the faith is. It's pretty much going with that hope that there is even truth at all. It's really the only thing even worth having faith in.

All that other stuff that you see? Creative expressions, but God is uncreated and real.

But besides putting faith in that, everything else that follows has to do with the relationship we have that. Because we have faith that there is Truth, and we love the Truth, it drives us to better ourselves in order to get closer to the truth. Where does most of that come from? By looking at what is clouding our judgement and keeping us from accepting The Ultimate Reality. The belief is that The Truth will set you free, and that God is Salvation. Everything follows from this.

Without God, you make everything arbitrary. It's all creation worship and vanity. Pagan futility.

I don't believe in anything, I have faith in God.

It's so basic, and despite the confusion, that is what it's about.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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6/23/2016 5:51:11 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 5:07:56 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Another bonus definition.

~~~

Full Definition of agnostic
1
.: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2
.: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>

~~~

I am definitely an agnostic. Anyone who is honest is an agnostic.

Belief in the existence of God is taken on faith.

What kind of sentence is that? "Belief" and "faith" are the same word in Greek.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/23/2016 5:57:43 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 5:51:11 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/23/2016 5:07:56 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Another bonus definition.

~~~

Full Definition of agnostic
1
.: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2
.: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>

~~~

I am definitely an agnostic. Anyone who is honest is an agnostic.

Belief in the existence of God is taken on faith.

What kind of sentence is that? "Belief" and "faith" are the same word in Greek.

"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

I stand corrected, that was a bad choice of words. I understand that I have faith in the existence of God.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Cobalt
Posts: 991
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6/23/2016 6:12:38 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 4:05:25 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:

Let's see if I can follow this progression.

Atheist:
One who believes that there is no deity.

Replace "deity" with definition:
One who believes that there is no God.

Replace "God" with definition:
One who believes there is no supreme or ultimate reality, as relates to the Being perfect in power, wisdom and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe

Replace "ultimate" and "supreme" with definitions:
One who believes there is no Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe and who is both highest in authority and last in a progression or series regarding reality.

Replace"reality" with definition:
One who believes there is no Being perfect in power, wisdom and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe and who is both highest in authority and last in a progression or series that possesses the quality or state of being real.

How fun. We've taken an easily understood definition and made it excessively wordy.

I'm assuming that you were trying to take the definition of "God" and have it mean simply "supreme and ultimate reality" without considering the rest of the definition, which specifically refers to a Being with judgment and characteristics.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/23/2016 6:15:36 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
What does a dictionary capture, S&T?

Does it capture reality, or just speech?

If it captures reality, does it do so accurately, and does it capture all of reality? And if dictionaries are reality, how did the writers of the dictionary know about the reality they captured?

If they captured it right, doesn't that mean dictionary definitions must not change over time? So, if dictionaries capture reality accurately, then new words can be added, but meanings must not change?

Or if the definitions of words change, what does that mean? Does it mean reality is changing, or do dictionaries only capture the way people speak?

If dictionaries only captured the nature of speech, not the nature of the world, then wouldn't appealing to dictionary as authority on the world be a fallacy?
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/23/2016 6:17:09 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 6:15:36 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
What does a dictionary capture, S&T?

Does it capture reality, or just speech?

If it captures reality, does it do so accurately, and does it capture all of reality? And if dictionaries are reality, how did the writers of the dictionary know about the reality they captured?

If they captured it right, doesn't that mean dictionary definitions must not change over time? So, if dictionaries capture reality accurately, then new words can be added, but meanings must not change?

Or if the definitions of words change, what does that mean? Does it mean reality is changing, or do dictionaries only capture the way people speak?

If dictionaries only captured the nature of speech, not the nature of the world, then wouldn't appealing to dictionary as authority on the world be a fallacy?

Of course.

And there is a theological theme throughout the new testament that addresses this. "The letter of the law killeth, but the spirit of the law bringeth life."
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
mrsatan
Posts: 417
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6/23/2016 6:19:11 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
I see no reason to trust Webster's definition for atheist considering it doesn't align with their definition of atheism...
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
SpiritandTruth
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6/23/2016 6:21:43 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 6:12:38 AM, Cobalt wrote:
At 6/23/2016 4:05:25 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:

Let's see if I can follow this progression.

Atheist:
One who believes that there is no deity.

Replace "deity" with definition:
One who believes that there is no God.

Replace "God" with definition:
One who believes there is no supreme or ultimate reality, as relates to the Being perfect in power, wisdom and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe

Replace "ultimate" and "supreme" with definitions:
One who believes there is no Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe and who is both highest in authority and last in a progression or series regarding reality.

Replace"reality" with definition:
One who believes there is no Being perfect in power, wisdom and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe and who is both highest in authority and last in a progression or series that possesses the quality or state of being real.

How fun. We've taken an easily understood definition and made it excessively wordy.

I'm assuming that you were trying to take the definition of "God" and have it mean simply "supreme and ultimate reality" without considering the rest of the definition, which specifically refers to a Being with judgment and characteristics.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/23/2016 6:24:52 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 6:17:09 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/23/2016 6:15:36 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
What does a dictionary capture, S&T?

Does it capture reality, or just speech?

If it captures reality, does it do so accurately, and does it capture all of reality? And if dictionaries are reality, how did the writers of the dictionary know about the reality they captured?

If they captured it right, doesn't that mean dictionary definitions must not change over time? So, if dictionaries capture reality accurately, then new words can be added, but meanings must not change?

Or if the definitions of words change, what does that mean? Does it mean reality is changing, or do dictionaries only capture the way people speak?

If dictionaries only captured the nature of speech, not the nature of the world, then wouldn't appealing to dictionary as authority on the world be a fallacy?

Of course.

Then if the authors of a dictionary have no idea what 'ultimate reality' might be, they cannot pronounce that it's one thing or another.

Instead, they'd be quoting others in their claims that God is the ultimate reality. They're not offering evidence or pronouncing on the quality of the belief -- they're simply recording that this is sometimes what people mean when they say God.

So it remains an outstanding question whether the people quoted themselves know what ultimate reality is, how they acquired that information, and how well they tested it.

And quoting the dictionary doesn't answer those questions.

Which is why the only person stumped by a dictionary is a member who doesn't understand its limitation as evidence.
SpiritandTruth
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6/23/2016 7:29:01 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
This isn't about proving The Ultimate Reality, certainly someone is justified in being an agnostic. After all, there is very little that can be known with 100% certainty.

One thing that is obvious though, is that there is some form of existence. Experience proves this very soundly.

I don't think it is really that much of a leap to discern that existence itself testifies of God, and me knowing God is irrelevant to the fact that God is there.

Atheism on the other hand... It lacks charity, and is fundamentally against humanity. I can't accept it as anything other than an abominable thing to embrace and make your identity.

Let it be manifest to all that atheism is at the core worship of the devil and his angels. Let it be known that atheism as a position has no love for the truth, no love that is truly charitable, and on the whole is a self serving position that is in opposition to the survival of the human species.

Surely, one on the fence is justifiable, for it is truth to say that one who is aware of the tool he is using to measure is aware of its limitations. What can you know? Very little.

But we know from experience that there is existence, there is reality. By purifying our hearts and examining The Most Perfect Image of God, it is possible to become enlightened.

You can't do this without faith. You have to believe. If you don't believe, you'll never see it. God has to be realized, that is, made real. We have The Most Perfect Image, that Truth That Sets Free.

It's essential. It has to be taken on faith. If you do not put your faith in God, where do you put your faith? I tell you, to those who are perishing, Satan is the most beautiful and attractive angel there is. The devil will offer you dominion over the entire world in exchange for your soul. The devil will impress you with miracles and magic. The devil will do all these things, but the devil's science isn't for Truth, it is witchcraft, the doings of smiths and wizards who aim to kill, steal, and destroy. Science with respect to God is for the sake of Truth, and with a firm faith that cannot be bribed.

Pity to them who worship utility, for the scriptures do not say in vain, " If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself."

Those who in their heart knowingly deny God are no better than dogs, and deserve death. Thank God for his tender mercies, and the grace he grants us all, but those who blaspheme The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the next. They will get the punishment that is due. God have mercy.

It is still not too late to repent and acknowledge The Truth, for God is merciful and forgiving to those who flee from their idolatry. Believe the Gospel, that The Truth shall set you free! Without that, surely you are among the lost, and you are the one who is bringing their own flame to hell!

Surely, it is justifiable given the deceptive nature of our experience to ride the fence, but realize that there is a real spiritual realm, and there is a real warfare going on above. This is a war going on inside humanity. Are we going to be dull beasts and pigs, or are we going to claim our birthright as children of God? I tell you, the fate of humanity hinges on the outcome of this war.

God is sovereign over all things. There is no delusion that can overthrow Divine Authority. The Kingdom of God is at hand, and we can either accept this and submit to God, or condemn ourselves to the fire. There is no salvation in the flesh, don't fool yourself! Don't let pride get in the way of what is Truly Real!
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
RuvDraba
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6/23/2016 8:04:41 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 7:29:01 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
This isn't about proving The Ultimate Reality, certainly someone is justified in being an agnostic. After all, there is very little that can be known with 100% certainty.
One thing that is obvious though, is that there is some form of existence. Experience proves this very soundly.
So far you've argued for empiricism: knowledge from experience. I have no disagreement.

I don't think it is really that much of a leap to discern that existence itself testifies of God, and me knowing God is irrelevant to the fact that God is there.
You seem to be abandoning your definition of God as 'ultimate reality'. So how are you now defining it?

Atheism on the other hand... It lacks charity, and is fundamentally against humanity.
Religious tribalism cannot conceive human cohesion other than in terms of religious tribes. Religious tribalism is suspicious of atheists because above all, atheism rejects the idea that humanity must be tribally religious.

Agnostics can be of the tribe yet abstain from participating in tribal ritual. The religious can tell themselves that agnostics aren't rejecting tribal beliefs, only that they don't (yet) believe them. But atheists are rejecting tribal beliefs. So how can someone rejecting the tribe's sacred myths be of the tribe?

Yet that's all emotional, conjectural, intuitive -- and false. Atheists serve the community in many ways -- as doctors, teachers, scientists, firefighters, artists, police, defense personnel... They pay taxes, volunteer, sacrifice for society just as do the religious, and many donate to charity. They are more law-abiding than the religious, their children are more tolerant and altruistic than the children of religious parents, and atheists often have strong moral and ethical codes that are not slavish copies of ancient religious tradition, but rather drawn from secular ideas that the religious too have also adopted.

The problem then in your inability to respect atheism then, isn't in atheism. It's in your religious tribalist's understanding of humanity.

I can't accept it as anything other than an abominable thing to embrace and make your identity.
I have never said that atheism is my identity. That's like saying not watching romantic comedies defines my psychology.

Identities are built out of what we sacrifice for. Religious tribalists have no interest in what I sacrifice for, because all they care about is their own doctrine. So they don't ask the right questions, and I don't bother to educate bigots in personal matters they don't care about.

Let it be manifest to all that atheism is at the core worship of the devil and his angels.
In other words, to criticise the tribe is to be demonised.

Let it be known that atheism as a position has no love for the truth
To be of the tribe is to put tribal doctrine above love of truth, so to criticise tribal beliefs is to be condemned for deceit, rather than respected for loving truth more than tribal doctrine.

no love that is truly charitable, and on the whole is a self serving position that is in opposition to the survival of the human species.
To respect virtue in one who criticises the tribe is to respect criticism of the tribe. Atheists criticise the tribe, therefore virtue in atheists must be patronised and dismissed as lesser in motive.

But we know from experience that there is existence, there is reality. By purifying our hearts and examining The Most Perfect Image of God, it is possible to become enlightened.
If you're indoctrinated by the tribe and of the tribe, then the ultimate expression of identity is affirmation of the tribe's sacred beliefs.

You can't do this without faith. You have to believe. If you don't believe, you'll never see it. God has to be realized, that is, made real. We have The Most Perfect Image, that Truth That Sets Free.
Conviction without evidence isn't truth, justice, or compassion, but the bastard child of ignorance and vanity.

It's essential. It has to be taken on faith. If you do not put your faith in God, where do you put your faith?
It's a good question, S&T, and a pity that you asked it rhetorically.

Historically, before people became monotheists, they put faith in the people they knew. Atheists can do that too, and more. You should ask the question in open form and see what emerges.

Pity to them who worship utility
Are you confused about the difference between respect and reverence?

Do you respect utility?

Yes? So do I.

But do you revere it? No? How can you tell?

I don't revere it either.

God is sovereign over all things.
No, that's your tribal loyalty, which you symbolise as Christian doctrine. You want your tribe sovereign over all other tribes. That's why the Isralites embraced Yhwh as a tribal god, and why Greeks and exiled Jews co-opted him -- making a new tribe that spanned language groups.

It's also why demonise and vilify those who say your religious Boys Club is dishonourable, immoral and indecent. You have no self-esteem outside your tribal identity, and the idea of it dissolving terrifies you so badly that you look to dictionaries to justify it.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,647
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6/23/2016 1:05:13 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 6:21:43 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/23/2016 6:12:38 AM, Cobalt wrote:
At 6/23/2016 4:05:25 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:

Let's see if I can follow this progression.

Atheist:
One who believes that there is no deity.

Replace "deity" with definition:
One who believes that there is no God.

Replace "God" with definition:
One who believes there is no supreme or ultimate reality, as relates to the Being perfect in power, wisdom and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe

Replace "ultimate" and "supreme" with definitions:
One who believes there is no Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe and who is both highest in authority and last in a progression or series regarding reality.

Replace"reality" with definition:
One who believes there is no Being perfect in power, wisdom and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe and who is both highest in authority and last in a progression or series that possesses the quality or state of being real.

How fun. We've taken an easily understood definition and made it excessively wordy.

I'm assuming that you were trying to take the definition of "God" and have it mean simply "supreme and ultimate reality" without considering the rest of the definition, which specifically refers to a Being with judgment and characteristics.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

I don't see how this pertains to Cobalt's post.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/23/2016 2:36:01 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 4:05:25 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
source: Merriam-Webster collegiate dictionary 11 edition, which is the dictionary they host on their website that gives the "full definitions". The "simple definitions" come from a learners dictionary, which sacrifices accuracy for the sake of teaching language quicker. Obviously, we are going to use the adult definitions.

~~~

Full Definition of atheist
.: one who believes that there is no deity

~~~

Full Definition of deity
plural deities
1
a : the rank or essential nature of a god : divinity
b capitalized : god 1, supreme being
2
.: a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece>
3
.: one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful

~~~

Full Definition of god
1
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
.: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3
.: a person or thing of supreme value
4
.: a powerful ruler

~~~

Full Definition of supreme
1
.: highest in rank or authority <the supreme commander>
2
.: highest in degree or quality <supreme endurance in war and in labour " R. W. Emerson>
3
.: ultimate, final <the supreme sacrifice>

~~~

Full Definition of ultimate
1
a : most remote in space or time : farthest
b : last in a progression or series : final <their ultimate destination was Paris>
c : eventual 2 <they hoped for ultimate success>
d : the best or most extreme of its kind : utmost <the ultimate sacrifice>
2
.: arrived at as the last result <the ultimate question>
3
a : basic, fundamental <the ultimate nature of things " A. N. Whitehead>
b : original 1 <the ultimate source>
c : incapable of further analysis, division, or separation

~~~

Full Definition of reality
plural realities
1
.: the quality or state of being real
2
a (1) : a real event, entity, or state of affairs <his dream became a reality> (2) : the totality of real things and events <trying to escape from reality>
b : something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily
3
.: television programming that features videos of actual occurrences (as a police chase, stunt, or natural disaster) "often used attributively <reality TV>


~~~~~~

Feel free to say "Amen" when you see it.

Feel free to make a fool of yourself if you attempt to deny the truth.

Are you really that foolish? You still have not connected the dictionary definition of god to your own, no matter how much cut and paste you to. Go take a couple of classes in English.
SpiritandTruth
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6/23/2016 2:52:11 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 8:04:41 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/23/2016 7:29:01 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
This isn't about proving The Ultimate Reality, certainly someone is justified in being an agnostic. After all, there is very little that can be known with 100% certainty.
One thing that is obvious though, is that there is some form of existence. Experience proves this very soundly.
So far you've argued for empiricism: knowledge from experience. I have no disagreement.

I don't think it is really that much of a leap to discern that existence itself testifies of God, and me knowing God is irrelevant to the fact that God is there.
You seem to be abandoning your definition of God as 'ultimate reality'. So how are you now defining it?


Nothing changed

Atheism on the other hand... It lacks charity, and is fundamentally against humanity.
Religious tribalism cannot conceive human cohesion other than in terms of religious tribes. Religious tribalism is suspicious of atheists because above all, atheism rejects the idea that humanity must be tribally religious.

Agnostics can be of the tribe yet abstain from participating in tribal ritual. The religious can tell themselves that agnostics aren't rejecting tribal beliefs, only that they don't (yet) believe them. But atheists are rejecting tribal beliefs. So how can someone rejecting the tribe's sacred myths be of the tribe?

Yet that's all emotional, conjectural, intuitive -- and false. Atheists serve the community in many ways -- as doctors, teachers, scientists, firefighters, artists, police, defense personnel... They pay taxes, volunteer, sacrifice for society just as do the religious, and many donate to charity. They are more law-abiding than the religious, their children are more tolerant and altruistic than the children of religious parents, and atheists often have strong moral and ethical codes that are not slavish copies of ancient religious tradition, but rather drawn from secular ideas that the religious too have also adopted.

The problem then in your inability to respect atheism then, isn't in atheism. It's in your religious tribalist's understanding of humanity.


Nothing to do with what I'm talking bout.

I can't accept it as anything other than an abominable thing to embrace and make your identity.
I have never said that atheism is my identity. That's like saying not watching romantic comedies defines my psychology.

Identities are built out of what we sacrifice for. Religious tribalists have no interest in what I sacrifice for, because all they care about is their own doctrine. So they don't ask the right questions, and I don't bother to educate bigots in personal matters they don't care about.

Let it be manifest to all that atheism is at the core worship of the devil and his angels.
In other words, to criticise the tribe is to be demonised.

Let it be known that atheism as a position has no love for the truth
To be of the tribe is to put tribal doctrine above love of truth, so to criticise tribal beliefs is to be condemned for deceit, rather than respected for loving truth more than tribal doctrine.

no love that is truly charitable, and on the whole is a self serving position that is in opposition to the survival of the human species.
To respect virtue in one who criticises the tribe is to respect criticism of the tribe. Atheists criticise the tribe, therefore virtue in atheists must be patronised and dismissed as lesser in motive.

But we know from experience that there is existence, there is reality. By purifying our hearts and examining The Most Perfect Image of God, it is possible to become enlightened.
If you're indoctrinated by the tribe and of the tribe, then the ultimate expression of identity is affirmation of the tribe's sacred beliefs.

You can't do this without faith. You have to believe. If you don't believe, you'll never see it. God has to be realized, that is, made real. We have The Most Perfect Image, that Truth That Sets Free.
Conviction without evidence isn't truth, justice, or compassion, but the bastard child of ignorance and vanity.

It's essential. It has to be taken on faith. If you do not put your faith in God, where do you put your faith?
It's a good question, S&T, and a pity that you asked it rhetorically.

Historically, before people became monotheists, they put faith in the people they knew. Atheists can do that too, and more. You should ask the question in open form and see what emerges.

Pity to them who worship utility
Are you confused about the difference between respect and reverence?

Do you respect utility?

Yes? So do I.

But do you revere it? No? How can you tell?

I don't revere it either.

God is sovereign over all things.
No, that's your tribal loyalty, which you symbolise as Christian doctrine. You want your tribe sovereign over all other tribes. That's why the Isralites embraced Yhwh as a tribal god, and why Greeks and exiled Jews co-opted him -- making a new tribe that spanned language groups.

It's also why demonise and vilify those who say your religious Boys Club is dishonourable, immoral and indecent. You have no self-esteem outside your tribal identity, and the idea of it dissolving terrifies you so badly that you look to dictionaries to justify it.

Yeah, sorry, but I'm not talking religion, I'm talking God. We aren't on the same page.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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6/23/2016 3:01:10 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 2:52:11 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/23/2016 8:04:41 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/23/2016 7:29:01 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
This isn't about proving The Ultimate Reality, certainly someone is justified in being an agnostic. After all, there is very little that can be known with 100% certainty.
One thing that is obvious though, is that there is some form of existence. Experience proves this very soundly.
So far you've argued for empiricism: knowledge from experience. I have no disagreement.

I don't think it is really that much of a leap to discern that existence itself testifies of God, and me knowing God is irrelevant to the fact that God is there.
You seem to be abandoning your definition of God as 'ultimate reality'. So how are you now defining it?


Nothing changed

Atheism on the other hand... It lacks charity, and is fundamentally against humanity.
Religious tribalism cannot conceive human cohesion other than in terms of religious tribes. Religious tribalism is suspicious of atheists because above all, atheism rejects the idea that humanity must be tribally religious.

Agnostics can be of the tribe yet abstain from participating in tribal ritual. The religious can tell themselves that agnostics aren't rejecting tribal beliefs, only that they don't (yet) believe them. But atheists are rejecting tribal beliefs. So how can someone rejecting the tribe's sacred myths be of the tribe?

Yet that's all emotional, conjectural, intuitive -- and false. Atheists serve the community in many ways -- as doctors, teachers, scientists, firefighters, artists, police, defense personnel... They pay taxes, volunteer, sacrifice for society just as do the religious, and many donate to charity. They are more law-abiding than the religious, their children are more tolerant and altruistic than the children of religious parents, and atheists often have strong moral and ethical codes that are not slavish copies of ancient religious tradition, but rather drawn from secular ideas that the religious too have also adopted.

The problem then in your inability to respect atheism then, isn't in atheism. It's in your religious tribalist's understanding of humanity.


Nothing to do with what I'm talking bout.

I can't accept it as anything other than an abominable thing to embrace and make your identity.
I have never said that atheism is my identity. That's like saying not watching romantic comedies defines my psychology.

Identities are built out of what we sacrifice for. Religious tribalists have no interest in what I sacrifice for, because all they care about is their own doctrine. So they don't ask the right questions, and I don't bother to educate bigots in personal matters they don't care about.

Let it be manifest to all that atheism is at the core worship of the devil and his angels.
In other words, to criticise the tribe is to be demonised.

Let it be known that atheism as a position has no love for the truth
To be of the tribe is to put tribal doctrine above love of truth, so to criticise tribal beliefs is to be condemned for deceit, rather than respected for loving truth more than tribal doctrine.

no love that is truly charitable, and on the whole is a self serving position that is in opposition to the survival of the human species.
To respect virtue in one who criticises the tribe is to respect criticism of the tribe. Atheists criticise the tribe, therefore virtue in atheists must be patronised and dismissed as lesser in motive.

But we know from experience that there is existence, there is reality. By purifying our hearts and examining The Most Perfect Image of God, it is possible to become enlightened.
If you're indoctrinated by the tribe and of the tribe, then the ultimate expression of identity is affirmation of the tribe's sacred beliefs.

You can't do this without faith. You have to believe. If you don't believe, you'll never see it. God has to be realized, that is, made real. We have The Most Perfect Image, that Truth That Sets Free.
Conviction without evidence isn't truth, justice, or compassion, but the bastard child of ignorance and vanity.

It's essential. It has to be taken on faith. If you do not put your faith in God, where do you put your faith?
It's a good question, S&T, and a pity that you asked it rhetorically.

Historically, before people became monotheists, they put faith in the people they knew. Atheists can do that too, and more. You should ask the question in open form and see what emerges.

Pity to them who worship utility
Are you confused about the difference between respect and reverence?

Do you respect utility?

Yes? So do I.

But do you revere it? No? How can you tell?

I don't revere it either.

God is sovereign over all things.
No, that's your tribal loyalty, which you symbolise as Christian doctrine. You want your tribe sovereign over all other tribes. That's why the Isralites embraced Yhwh as a tribal god, and why Greeks and exiled Jews co-opted him -- making a new tribe that spanned language groups.

It's also why demonise and vilify those who say your religious Boys Club is dishonourable, immoral and indecent. You have no self-esteem outside your tribal identity, and the idea of it dissolving terrifies you so badly that you look to dictionaries to justify it.

Yeah, sorry, but I'm not talking religion, I'm talking God. We aren't on the same page.
And religion says nothing other than god, you are talking religion even if it is your own private one. Don't despair, all believers have their own private gods and the religion they use to be involved with that god.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/23/2016 3:03:37 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 1:05:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 6/23/2016 6:21:43 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/23/2016 6:12:38 AM, Cobalt wrote:
At 6/23/2016 4:05:25 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:

Let's see if I can follow this progression.

Atheist:
One who believes that there is no deity.

Replace "deity" with definition:
One who believes that there is no God.

Replace "God" with definition:
One who believes there is no supreme or ultimate reality, as relates to the Being perfect in power, wisdom and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe

Replace "ultimate" and "supreme" with definitions:
One who believes there is no Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe and who is both highest in authority and last in a progression or series regarding reality.

Replace"reality" with definition:
One who believes there is no Being perfect in power, wisdom and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe and who is both highest in authority and last in a progression or series that possesses the quality or state of being real.

How fun. We've taken an easily understood definition and made it excessively wordy.

I'm assuming that you were trying to take the definition of "God" and have it mean simply "supreme and ultimate reality" without considering the rest of the definition, which specifically refers to a Being with judgment and characteristics.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

I don't see how this pertains to Cobalt's post.

Perfect power, wisdom, and goodness exist at the foundation of creation. It is said that you need to recognize the son in order to get to the father.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/23/2016 3:07:28 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 3:01:10 PM, bulproof wrote:
And religion says nothing other than god, you are talking religion even if it is your own private one. Don't despair, all believers have their own private gods and the religion they use to be involved with that god.

Another reason why only fools say, "there is no God!" has to do with the fact that everyone has a "god" whether are aware of it or admit it.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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6/23/2016 3:10:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 3:07:28 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/23/2016 3:01:10 PM, bulproof wrote:
And religion says nothing other than god, you are talking religion even if it is your own private one. Don't despair, all believers have their own private gods and the religion they use to be involved with that god.

Another reason why only fools say, "there is no God!" has to do with the fact that everyone has a "god" whether are aware of it or admit it.
Only the terminally deluded claim that everyone has a god, it all stems from their fear of death.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/23/2016 3:18:19 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 2:36:01 PM, dhardage wrote:
Are you really that foolish? You still have not connected the dictionary definition of god to your own, no matter how much cut and paste you to. Go take a couple of classes in English.

You don't believe me, so you are predisposed towards discounting whatever you can't understand. If you want to know why you are making a fool of yourself right now, it is because you are saying anything at all.

You know, anytime the old man with a mile long white beard gives his disciple a riddle to figure out, the disciple is supposed to figure out the riddle and receive confirmation. If the disciple gives up because they don't have faith in the teacher or are too lazy to use the muscle the teacher is trying to get them to use, they aren't going to learn anything. If you don't got it, you can avoid a few bonks on the head from his knobby stick by staying silent rather than giving wrong answers.

Obviously, you aren't my disciple, but attitude makes a huge difference.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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6/23/2016 3:23:14 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 3:18:19 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/23/2016 2:36:01 PM, dhardage wrote:
Are you really that foolish? You still have not connected the dictionary definition of god to your own, no matter how much cut and paste you to. Go take a couple of classes in English.

You don't believe me, so you are predisposed towards discounting whatever you can't understand. If you want to know why you are making a fool of yourself right now, it is because you are saying anything at all.

You know, anytime the old man with a mile long white beard gives his disciple a riddle to figure out, the disciple is supposed to figure out the riddle and receive confirmation. If the disciple gives up because they don't have faith in the teacher or are too lazy to use the muscle the teacher is trying to get them to use, they aren't going to learn anything. If you don't got it, you can avoid a few bonks on the head from his knobby stick by staying silent rather than giving wrong answers.

Obviously, you aren't my disciple, but attitude makes a huge difference.

Wow, and I thought I'd seen ego before. Guess what. You aren't wise, you aren't profound. You're arrogant and ignorant and proud of your ignorance.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,647
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6/23/2016 3:36:21 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 3:03:37 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:

Perfect power, wisdom, and goodness exist at the foundation of creation. It is said that you need to recognize the son in order to get to the father.

What does "perfect power" even mean?

Wisdom and goodness are only coherent in terms of a sentient being; please explain why these traits are necessarily foundational to reality, itself.

I disagree with referring to the universe as "creation". A creation is a deliberate result of a creative process, which entails the willful and deliberate efforts of a creator, which implies that a being possessing volition is responsible for it all. I don't see any evidence or reason to believe this.

Regarding the last part, lots of things are said; that doesn't make them true or meaningful.
shnarkle
Posts: 68
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6/23/2016 4:43:35 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 5:07:56 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Another bonus definition.

I am definitely an agnostic. Anyone who is honest is an agnostic.

shnarkle: No one is completely honest, even with themselves. There's nothing in the definition of agnostic or agnosticism about having to be honest.
------------------------------------------

Belief in the existence of God is taken on faith. That is what the faith is.

shanrkle: Seems a bit vague. Faith is the mechanism or faculty by which one believes in God or anything for that matter; but even this isn't much of an improvement over your definition. I only bring this up because the classical problem between those who believe in God and those who don't is that those who do are utilizing a completely different faculty than those who don't. The atheists approach the topic using logic while the believers approach understanding through the faculty of faith. Paul's definition is probably one of the best: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
--------------------------------------
Without God, you make everything arbitrary. It's all creation worship and vanity. Pagan futility.

shnarkle: A bit of a broad brush off of Paganism. The vast majority of Christians live arbitrary lives, but more importantly; worship an arbitrary God. In other words, they worship a capricious God. Taking only a few prime examples: This God tells some to "Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy" while supposedly telling others to ignore the Sabbath. He tells one group that pork, shellfish, catfish, lobster, shrimp etc. are all filthy garbage while supposedly telling others that it's perfectly fine to consume. He tells one group not to become enslaved by usury while supposedly telling another group that it's perfectly acceptable. My point here is not to insinuate that, for example; the God of the bible actually does this, but to spotlight that most mainstream Christians believe he does which is to worship a capricious god.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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6/23/2016 5:50:55 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 5:57:43 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/23/2016 5:51:11 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/23/2016 5:07:56 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Another bonus definition.

~~~

Full Definition of agnostic
1
.: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2
.: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>

~~~

I am definitely an agnostic. Anyone who is honest is an agnostic.

Belief in the existence of God is taken on faith.

What kind of sentence is that? "Belief" and "faith" are the same word in Greek.

"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

I stand corrected, that was a bad choice of words. I understand that I have faith in the existence of God.

Everyone that believes in an unsubstantiated religion has faith otherwise they wouldn't believe in their religion.

It is classified as faith because once there is evidence, it is no longer faith - it is then classified as knowledge.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/23/2016 6:07:03 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 2:52:11 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/23/2016 8:04:41 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/23/2016 7:29:01 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Atheism on the other hand... It lacks charity, and is fundamentally against humanity.
Religious tribalism cannot conceive human cohesion other than in terms of religious tribes. Religious tribalism is suspicious of atheists because above all, atheism rejects the idea that humanity must be tribally religious.
I'm not talking religion, I'm talking God. We aren't on the same page.

What is the earliest definitive source of information about gods that doesn't derive its ideas from some earlier religious tradition?

Could you cite it please?

If you can't, then it's fair to conclude that gods are a product of religion, that when you talk about gods, you are talking about religion, and that your own ideas have come from religious traditions, and that you're simply being dishonest and pretending your theological thought, and your prejudices against atheists are not shaped by the tribal thought from which you drew them.
shnarkle
Posts: 68
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6/23/2016 6:22:33 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 5:50:55 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/23/2016 5:57:43 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/23/2016 5:51:11 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 6/23/2016 5:07:56 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Another bonus definition.

~~~

Full Definition of agnostic
1
.: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2
.: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>

~~~

I am definitely an agnostic. Anyone who is honest is an agnostic.

Belief in the existence of God is taken on faith.

What kind of sentence is that? "Belief" and "faith" are the same word in Greek.

"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

I stand corrected, that was a bad choice of words. I understand that I have faith in the existence of God.

Everyone that believes in an unsubstantiated religion has faith otherwise they wouldn't believe in their religion.

It is classified as faith because once there is evidence, it is no longer faith - it is then classified as knowledge.

shanrkle: I'm just responding to the last sentence primarily. At first glance this makes sense, but if we look at Paul's definition of faith it is"evidence of things unseen". I agree that faith doesn't seem to me to be classified with knowledge; knowledge with reference to what is understood with the intellect. So either Paul is using this word "evidence" differently or evidence isn't confined exclusively to knowledge.

By way of example: We may see that the sun is bright with our eyes, but someone who is blind could contend that there is no evidence of this bright sun. He can't taste it, or hear it, or feel it (he may feel the heat of the sun, but not the sun itself). The sighted point out that it is discerned by a different faculty, i.e. sight.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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6/23/2016 6:26:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
The dictionary contradicts itself. the Merriam Webster definition of atheism is " a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity" "Disbelief" is not the same as "denial." So, for example, Buddhist teaching is that one should not spend time pondering whether of not God exists. According to MW, such people are part of atheism, but not atheists.

There are common definitions and technical definitions. Dictionaries like M.W. usually give the common definitions, although clearly not consistently, Philosophers and people serious about the subject use the technical definitions. Atheists are serious and use "a disbelief in the existence of deity."

In the time of Jefferson, an "atheist" was anyone not a Christian. Jefferson was a Deist, and Philadelphia banned his writings from their public libraries until 1840 on the grounds he was an "atheist."
SpiritandTruth
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6/23/2016 7:35:39 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 5:50:55 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Everyone that believes in an unsubstantiated religion has faith otherwise they wouldn't believe in their religion.

It is classified as faith because once there is evidence, it is no longer faith - it is then classified as knowledge.

I think people put way too much faith into so called knowledge.

That is coming from someone who considers it a duty to be knowledgeable.

Knowledge is certainly unsubstantiated without the belief in God.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
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6/23/2016 7:39:54 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 6:26:06 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
The dictionary contradicts itself. the Merriam Webster definition of atheism is " a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity" "Disbelief" is not the same as "denial." So, for example, Buddhist teaching is that one should not spend time pondering whether of not God exists. According to MW, such people are part of atheism, but not atheists.

There are common definitions and technical definitions. Dictionaries like M.W. usually give the common definitions, although clearly not consistently, Philosophers and people serious about the subject use the technical definitions. Atheists are serious and use "a disbelief in the existence of deity."

In the time of Jefferson, an "atheist" was anyone not a Christian. Jefferson was a Deist, and Philadelphia banned his writings from their public libraries until 1840 on the grounds he was an "atheist."

If you do not believe in the existence of Ultimate Reality, you are resting on a very shaky foundation. A person with such beliefs is bound to be double minded.

The Merriam Webster Collegiate is a fine dictionary, and suitable for the purposes of this topic.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/23/2016 7:49:45 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 6:07:03 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/23/2016 2:52:11 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 6/23/2016 8:04:41 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/23/2016 7:29:01 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Atheism on the other hand... It lacks charity, and is fundamentally against humanity.
Religious tribalism cannot conceive human cohesion other than in terms of religious tribes. Religious tribalism is suspicious of atheists because above all, atheism rejects the idea that humanity must be tribally religious.
I'm not talking religion, I'm talking God. We aren't on the same page.

What is the earliest definitive source of information about gods that doesn't derive its ideas from some earlier religious tradition?

Could you cite it please?

If you can't, then it's fair to conclude that gods are a product of religion, that when you talk about gods, you are talking about religion, and that your own ideas have come from religious traditions, and that you're simply being dishonest and pretending your theological thought, and your prejudices against atheists are not shaped by the tribal thought from which you drew them.

It's got nothing to do with tribalism. I give atheists a lot of charity, because I know that they don't know what they are doing. They are children. The position they hold is abominable and evil. The position of atheism does not deserve respect. The position itself practically asks you to disrespect it.

Before there was ever writing at all, people had an awareness of God. You don't know what God is. You think God is an idea or concept. You think God is creation. You aren't really looking at God, you are looking at something other than God.

You don't have to believe me, but as long as you aren't talking about the same thing I am, I don't think we are going to cover much ground.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,