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Probability and God

Cobalt
Posts: 991
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6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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6/23/2016 11:01:20 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Those who base their beliefs on logic, reasoning, scientific methods, etc still have faith, and it is a lack of self awareness that leads them to believe otherwise.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Rukado
Posts: 527
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6/23/2016 11:15:36 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Something has always existed. The universe has not always existed. Therefor God exists.

I think, therefor God is. (My self-awareness is proof that more than just matter and energy exists...)

I don't think I've ever seen an Atheist in this forum even attempt to offer a logical argument that God doesn't exist. Logical they are not. Stupid they are.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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6/23/2016 11:26:02 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

The two arguments I find most convincing are the moral argument and the cosmological argument (there are different versions, some of which seem stronger than others, so I'm speaking in generalities when I say 'cosmological argument'). It was originally a version of the cosmological argument I kind of stumbled on many years ago that took me from agnosticism to theism. Later, I discovered the moral argument. Concerning the moral argument, it isn't so much that I can prove the premises as it is that when I'm perfectly honest with myself, I cannot deny the premises.

I've heard a gazillion arguments for God, many of which are just plain silly, but the one argument that is actually taken serious by a lot of people but that I find the least persuasive is the transcendental argument for God.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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6/23/2016 11:27:37 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 11:15:36 PM, Rukado wrote:
Something has always existed.

Bare assertion.

The universe has not always existed.

Bare assertion.

Therefor God exists.

Non sequitur.

I think, therefor God is. (My self-awareness is proof that more than just matter and energy exists...)

Mind is a product of brain.

I don't think I've ever seen an Atheist in this forum even attempt to offer a logical argument that God doesn't exist. Logical they are not. Stupid they are.

Atheists don't have that burden. But:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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6/24/2016 12:35:18 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 11:15:36 PM, Rukado wrote:
Something has always existed. The universe has not always existed. Therefor God exists.

I think, therefor God is. (My self-awareness is proof that more than just matter and energy exists...)

I don't think I've ever seen an Atheist in this forum even attempt to offer a logical argument that God doesn't exist. Logical they are not. Stupid they are.

You have never heard me say that there is no consciousness outside our minds. I have only said that an interventionist god doesn't exist and that religion is false.

The reasons you gave could be used as an argument for Deism but does not further the argument for any specific religion. All religions use the same reasoning but can never articulate the connection between that argument and an argument for their religion.
uncung
Posts: 3,466
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6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.
Cobalt
Posts: 991
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6/24/2016 4:04:47 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

So, the cosmological argument? Or is there some other scientific/logical argument you prefer that you feel explains why/how the universe was created by God?
Shukr
Posts: 24
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6/24/2016 4:42:41 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 11:27:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
Mind is a product of brain.

Do you think given sufficient energy to your brain, you can survive ( without the rest of your body)?
(:'j
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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6/24/2016 5:00:05 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 4:42:41 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/23/2016 11:27:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
Mind is a product of brain.

Do you think given sufficient energy to your brain, you can survive ( without the rest of your body)?

Yes, if by 'energy' you mean oxygen and nutrients for the cells of the brain.

What does that have to do with anything? Do you think you would have a mind if your brain was destroyed? Or is it the case that when the brain is damaged, the mind is affected, eg. Alzheimer's?
Shukr
Posts: 24
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6/24/2016 5:05:46 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:00:05 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 4:42:41 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/23/2016 11:27:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
Mind is a product of brain.

Do you think given sufficient energy to your brain, you can survive ( without the rest of your body)?

Yes, if by 'energy' you mean oxygen and nutrients for the cells of the brain.

You can't see, hear, smell, touch and taste anything and you are alive. What kind of thoughts come to your mind (if any) without perceiving anything of the physical world?
(:'j
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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6/24/2016 5:12:06 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:05:46 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:00:05 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 4:42:41 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/23/2016 11:27:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
Mind is a product of brain.

Do you think given sufficient energy to your brain, you can survive ( without the rest of your body)?

Yes, if by 'energy' you mean oxygen and nutrients for the cells of the brain.

You can't see, hear, smell, touch and taste anything and you are alive. What kind of thoughts come to your mind (if any) without perceiving anything of the physical world?

You asked about survival and I answered. Now you seek to move the goalposts. I stated nothing about a brain/mind remaining sane in such a state.

What point do you think you are making in response to my original statement "mind is a product of brain"? Do you even know?
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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6/24/2016 5:13:08 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:05:46 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:00:05 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 4:42:41 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/23/2016 11:27:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
Mind is a product of brain.

Do you think given sufficient energy to your brain, you can survive ( without the rest of your body)?

Yes, if by 'energy' you mean oxygen and nutrients for the cells of the brain.

You can't see, hear, smell, touch and taste anything and you are alive. What kind of thoughts come to your mind (if any) without perceiving anything of the physical world?

There is no physical world. Every single thing is subatomic particles in motion appearing, disappearing, and reappearing.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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6/24/2016 5:13:37 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

That's not an argument. It's an assertion based on nothing.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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6/24/2016 5:17:42 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
Symphony of Science, Subatomic

http://youtu.be...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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6/24/2016 5:18:30 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:13:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

That's not an argument. It's an assertion based on nothing.

So is atheism
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Shukr
Posts: 24
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6/24/2016 5:19:35 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:12:06 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:05:46 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:00:05 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 4:42:41 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/23/2016 11:27:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
Mind is a product of brain.

Do you think given sufficient energy to your brain, you can survive ( without the rest of your body)?

Yes, if by 'energy' you mean oxygen and nutrients for the cells of the brain.

You can't see, hear, smell, touch and taste anything and you are alive. What kind of thoughts come to your mind (if any) without perceiving anything of the physical world?

You asked about survival and I answered. Now you seek to move the goalposts. I stated nothing about a brain/mind remaining sane in such a state.

According to you - without vision, taste, smell, touch and sense of hearing, you can be living. Indirectly you have said that conciousness and senses are indepent of each other. If not, what was your point?
(:'j
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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6/24/2016 5:26:42 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:18:30 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:13:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

That's not an argument. It's an assertion based on nothing.

So is atheism
Once again for the incredibly slow witted.
Atheism rejects the human claim that gods exist, it does so on the basis that the claimants have no evidence to support their claim. Perfectly logical.
uncung
Posts: 3,466
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6/24/2016 5:32:04 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 4:04:47 AM, Cobalt wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

So, the cosmological argument? Or is there some other scientific/logical argument you prefer that you feel explains why/how the universe was created by God?

Yes, I have a logical argument that how God created the universe.
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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6/24/2016 5:39:56 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:19:35 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:12:06 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:05:46 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:00:05 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 4:42:41 AM, Shukr wrote:
At 6/23/2016 11:27:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
Mind is a product of brain.

Do you think given sufficient energy to your brain, you can survive ( without the rest of your body)?

Yes, if by 'energy' you mean oxygen and nutrients for the cells of the brain.

You can't see, hear, smell, touch and taste anything and you are alive. What kind of thoughts come to your mind (if any) without perceiving anything of the physical world?

You asked about survival and I answered. Now you seek to move the goalposts. I stated nothing about a brain/mind remaining sane in such a state.

According to you - without vision, taste, smell, touch and sense of hearing, you can be living.

Yes, as per your question about survival. Do you dispute that this is theoretically possible?

Indirectly you have said that conciousness and senses are indepent of each other.

Please do not put words into my mouth. That is dishonest. My point was that mind is dependent on brain. You do not contest this, nor can you. Nowhere did I say or imply that a sane mind is possible with a brain alone and no sensory input. That would be you trying to manufacture an argument I did not make.

If not, what was your point?

My point should have been obvious. The other poster made this statement "My self-awareness is proof that more than just matter and energy exists". In refutation I pointed out that mind is a product of an organ which is made of matter and uses energy. Is this difficult to understand?
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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6/24/2016 5:41:50 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:32:04 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/24/2016 4:04:47 AM, Cobalt wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

So, the cosmological argument? Or is there some other scientific/logical argument you prefer that you feel explains why/how the universe was created by God?

Yes, I have a logical argument that how God created the universe.

Of course you have. Now go and have a lie down and I'm sure you'll feel better.
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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6/24/2016 5:43:41 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:18:30 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:13:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

That's not an argument. It's an assertion based on nothing.

So is atheism

You need to look up the definition of a-theism. Nothing is being asserted. What others are asserting is being rejected as unevidenced.
uncung
Posts: 3,466
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6/24/2016 5:44:15 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:13:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

That's not an argument. It's an assertion based on nothing.

My argument bases on scriptural text. It says God created the universe.
"The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is."
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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6/24/2016 5:46:34 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:44:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:13:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

That's not an argument. It's an assertion based on nothing.

My argument bases on scriptural text. It says God created the universe.
"The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is."

As I said, an assertion (repeated secondhand) based on nothing.
uncung
Posts: 3,466
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6/24/2016 5:48:54 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:46:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:44:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:13:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

That's not an argument. It's an assertion based on nothing.

My argument bases on scriptural text. It says God created the universe.
"The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is."

As I said, an assertion (repeated secondhand) based on nothing.

My assertion base on the scriptural text.
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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6/24/2016 5:50:37 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:48:54 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:46:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:44:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:13:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

That's not an argument. It's an assertion based on nothing.

My argument bases on scriptural text. It says God created the universe.
"The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is."

As I said, an assertion (repeated secondhand) based on nothing.

My assertion base on the scriptural text.

Secondhand bare assertions are no better than original ones.
uncung
Posts: 3,466
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6/24/2016 5:53:35 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:50:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:48:54 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:46:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:44:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:13:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

That's not an argument. It's an assertion based on nothing.

My argument bases on scriptural text. It says God created the universe.
"The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is."

As I said, an assertion (repeated secondhand) based on nothing.

My assertion base on the scriptural text.

Secondhand bare assertions are no better than original ones.

But am I wrong in the eyes of science?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/24/2016 7:54:08 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
I don't find the traditional arguments convincing... Like the cosmological, teleological, ontological, moral arguments and such. I find the digital physics argument for God and the introspective argument to be the ones that made me lean in a theistic direction.
dee-em
Posts: 6,486
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6/24/2016 8:12:34 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/24/2016 5:53:35 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:50:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:48:54 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:46:34 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:44:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/24/2016 5:13:37 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/24/2016 3:11:47 AM, uncung wrote:
At 6/23/2016 10:20:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
This question is directed at those who believe in a god, but whose belief is based more on the logical/scientific probability of a god existing than faith.

What factors weigh most prominently in the "god exists" direction, from your point of view? Which arguments do you find the most convincing and which do you find the least convincing?

Universe was created by God. It is the most convincing argument.

That's not an argument. It's an assertion based on nothing.

My argument bases on scriptural text. It says God created the universe.
"The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is."

As I said, an assertion (repeated secondhand) based on nothing.

My assertion base on the scriptural text.

Secondhand bare assertions are no better than original ones.

But am I wrong in the eyes of science?

It's not something which is in the purview of science. Science is indifferent to claims of God-Did-It (because being outside the realm of any possible investigation, they are inherently of no interest). Certainly there is no scientific support or evidence for a created universe.
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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6/24/2016 8:25:01 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/23/2016 11:01:20 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Those who base their beliefs on logic, reasoning, scientific methods, etc still have faith, and it is a lack of self awareness that leads them to believe otherwise.

by all means, explain how you used logic and reasoning to explain how you concluded that your god was real.
all you have to do is connect the dots from "(this happened)" to "therefore this specific god must be real.