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@Ogan

gavin.ogden
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12/18/2010 5:59:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death, and eventually to control them utterly. I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon. I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion, but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Pass...
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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12/18/2010 6:02:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/18/2010 5:59:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death, and eventually to control them utterly. I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon. I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion, but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Pass...

Religion is like a pill, if swallowed it can heal many ailments, but if chewed, it will be thrown up !
gavin.ogden
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12/18/2010 6:03:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/18/2010 6:02:35 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/18/2010 5:59:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death, and eventually to control them utterly. I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon. I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion, but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Pass...

Religion is like a pill, if swallowed it can heal many ailments, but if chewed, it will be thrown up !

Refer to the thread title.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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12/19/2010 3:06:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/18/2010 5:59:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death, and eventually to control them utterly. I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon. I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion, but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Pass...

Ogan:
Before I say anything one quick point: At the beginning I banged the Gong to see if anyone would respond outside the ‘meeting rooms'. Usually I go into the meeting rooms where no one may recognise each other because of all the rapid complications and noise.

But to proceed: Thank you for an excellent subject. I would say just a few words before the coming journey if I may. How long this duet will last is impossible to say. The level reached upon the Mountain will both colour and limit our thoughts and pre-conceived ideas about everything – I am ready for some surprises.

Only those who are utterly Honest, Sincere and above all Courageous will be able to divest themselves of any wrong ideas imprisoning them in the valleys below; as I have learned with much pain and much to my cost - though I hasten to add that I would have paid a far higher price for the level of Freedom and Happiness attained. We imprison ourselves by our own decree each moment. ‘How' shall we come upon any parts of the actual Truth, and recognise it as such, and be changed by such – as we all have to eventually? I have already said ‘how' in the first line of this paragraph – there is no other way.

I will not bombard you with anything but my own thoughts, unless I am sure that it were better said by another to our mutual benefit. To begin with, I hope you will agree that the endless quoting of text or the ‘letter that killeth', in a foolish attempt to ‘prove' something to another is a rather pointless and a thankless task, but above all tiresome and unnecessary; better left to those who enjoy the endless intellectual battles and storms, while we go for a spot of Fishing together. Let us both be determined to catch something, so that we may say "The effort was beneficial and worth every moment, even if we caught nothing this time" – although I must say that I am an optimist and have a feeling in my bones that quite a few salmon may be bagged and a good time be had by both Fishermen. Lastly, some who read but cannot run will be offended by what I say, but this can not be helped as Truth matters more to me than my very breath.

But let's make our way up-steam then, gradually, and with no distortions allowed. If old ideas darken the sky and impede the Fishing, take heart, there is always tomorrow.

gavin.ogden
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death…

Ogan:
I accept without doubt that Religions are indeed man made ‘devices', if by device you mean an invention – an invention based upon a Plan. Though whether the ORIGINAL MOTIVE for building such a religious ‘device', was the manipulation of its followers by playing upon the ‘fear of death', rather than the search for the True and the Beautiful is quite another matter.

gavin.ogden
…and eventually to control them utterly.

Ogan:
I also agree that these religions were eventually used as a means of Control, as the Light in them was later distorted by crafty Scribes and Priestly translators. And, as they grew old and were no longer understood by their later priests and ignorant followers, it was easy to transform it into Statecraft and temporal power upon Earth.

gavin.ogden
I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon.

Ogan:
I am really sad and sorry that I have to agree with the first part of this statement; though the second rather pessimistic, futuristic statement may or may not be true.

gavin.ogden
I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion…

Ogan:
This last statement identifies a particular problem of the modern age, in that it is assumed that intellect is superior to True Religion. Because I know that you are being sincere and speaking the truth, the statement you make is only true if your idea of religion is true. This could be a very interesting area, as I am also being sincere and speaking the truth when I say – there are excellent rapids ahead falling into a sparkling Pool where lots of Salmon are sporting themselves. But I leave that for you to decide.

gavin.ogden
…but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Ogan:
Its not beyond your reason, you have just said it – a lot (not all) use it as a crutch – to help them in a cruel world – would you like to help them?

gavin.ogden
Pass...

Ogan:
At this point I would ask: apart from your welcome thoughts and comments, what part of the above do you wish to discuss first?
Pass…
gavin.ogden
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12/20/2010 12:08:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 3:06:18 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 12/18/2010 5:59:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death, and eventually to control them utterly. I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon. I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion, but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Pass...

Ogan:
Before I say anything one quick point: At the beginning I banged the Gong to see if anyone would respond outside the ‘meeting rooms'. Usually I go into the meeting rooms where no one may recognise each other because of all the rapid complications and noise.

But to proceed: Thank you for an excellent subject. I would say just a few words before the coming journey if I may. How long this duet will last is impossible to say. The level reached upon the Mountain will both colour and limit our thoughts and pre-conceived ideas about everything – I am ready for some surprises.

Only those who are utterly Honest, Sincere and above all Courageous will be able to divest themselves of any wrong ideas imprisoning them in the valleys below; as I have learned with much pain and much to my cost - though I hasten to add that I would have paid a far higher price for the level of Freedom and Happiness attained. We imprison ourselves by our own decree each moment. ‘How' shall we come upon any parts of the actual Truth, and recognise it as such, and be changed by such – as we all have to eventually? I have already said ‘how' in the first line of this paragraph – there is no other way.

I will not bombard you with anything but my own thoughts, unless I am sure that it were better said by another to our mutual benefit. To begin with, I hope you will agree that the endless quoting of text or the ‘letter that killeth', in a foolish attempt to ‘prove' something to another is a rather pointless and a thankless task, but above all tiresome and unnecessary; better left to those who enjoy the endless intellectual battles and storms, while we go for a spot of Fishing together. Let us both be determined to catch something, so that we may say "The effort was beneficial and worth every moment, even if we caught nothing this time" – although I must say that I am an optimist and have a feeling in my bones that quite a few salmon may be bagged and a good time be had by both Fishermen. Lastly, some who read but cannot run will be offended by what I say, but this can not be helped as Truth matters more to me than my very breath.

But let's make our way up-steam then, gradually, and with no distortions allowed. If old ideas darken the sky and impede the Fishing, take heart, there is always tomorrow.

gavin.ogden
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death…

Ogan:
I accept without doubt that Religions are indeed man made ‘devices', if by device you mean an invention – an invention based upon a Plan. Though whether the ORIGINAL MOTIVE for building such a religious ‘device', was the manipulation of its followers by playing upon the ‘fear of death', rather than the search for the True and the Beautiful is quite another matter.

gavin.ogden
…and eventually to control them utterly.

Ogan:
I also agree that these religions were eventually used as a means of Control, as the Light in them was later distorted by crafty Scribes and Priestly translators. And, as they grew old and were no longer understood by their later priests and ignorant followers, it was easy to transform it into Statecraft and temporal power upon Earth.

gavin.ogden
I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon.

Ogan:
I am really sad and sorry that I have to agree with the first part of this statement; though the second rather pessimistic, futuristic statement may or may not be true.

gavin.ogden
I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion…

Ogan:
This last statement identifies a particular problem of the modern age, in that it is assumed that intellect is superior to True Religion. Because I know that you are being sincere and speaking the truth, the statement you make is only true if your idea of religion is true. This could be a very interesting area, as I am also being sincere and speaking the truth when I say – there are excellent rapids ahead falling into a sparkling Pool where lots of Salmon are sporting themselves. But I leave that for you to decide.

gavin.ogden
…but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Ogan:
Its not beyond your reason, you have just said it – a lot (not all) use it as a crutch – to help them in a cruel world – would you like to help them?

gavin.ogden
Pass...

Ogan:
At this point I would ask: apart from your welcome thoughts and comments, what part of the above do you wish to discuss first?
Pass…

Thank you for joining me in this forum, Ogan. I believe we have much to discuss. The first thing I would like to discuss is the ongoing escalation of religion in America. I mentioned people holding on to it like a crutch. It seems to me that I may have been only half right. I believe much of the blame belongs to the parents.
The child is basically indoctrinated, unwillingly, into a religion before they are old enough to know any better. This is a form of brainwashing, no more, no less. Unfortunately, these people seem unaware of any other REALITY, even after reaching adulthood.
Reality is that modern science has disproven many aspects of organized religion, but it seems logic is powerless against these archaic, and dangerous ideas which are forced on the children. In America, Christianity has taken a hold of otherwise intelligent, reasonable people. We even have policy makers who do not believe in evolution! Huh? How badly brainwashed do you have to be, in order to believe that the entire world population originated with one couple?
Finally, these people believe, without any doubt, that the rest of us are bound for some miserable afterlife. My answer to all of them is this: While you live your LIFE waiting to die, I will live my life to the fullest extent, with the belief that when I die, my remains will go back into the earth to feed another life. Pass...
Ogan
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12/20/2010 6:26:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Thank you for joining me in this forum, Ogan. I believe we have much to discuss. The first thing I would like to discuss is the ongoing escalation of religion in America. I mentioned people holding on to it like a crutch. It seems to me that I may have been only half right. I believe much of the blame belongs to the parents.
The child is basically indoctrinated, unwillingly, into a religion before they are old enough to know any better. This is a form of brainwashing, no more, no less. Unfortunately, these people seem unaware of any other REALITY, even after reaching adulthood.
Reality is that modern science has disproven many aspects of organized religion, but it seems logic is powerless against these archaic, and dangerous ideas which are forced on the children. In America, Christianity has taken a hold of otherwise intelligent, reasonable people. We even have policy makers who do not believe in evolution! Huh? How badly brainwashed do you have to be, in order to believe that the entire world population originated with one couple?
Finally, these people believe, without any doubt, that the rest of us are bound for some miserable afterlife. My answer to all of them is this: While you live your LIFE waiting to die, I will live my life to the fullest extent, with the belief that when I die, my remains will go back into the earth to feed another life. Pass...

Thank you also for your interesting input. Tragically, the problem you have mentioned is a global problem at this time, not just America. It is also the case with many different types and sects of organised religion. Humanity seems to have entered a very crucial transition – a kind of schizophrenic struggle between Faith and Reason.
It is quite easy to disprove anything within known religions using the ‘reasoning' powers, and for the ‘faithful' to follow strange beliefs regardless of any rational arguments. One point is evolution. The fact is, all things and beings must evolve – or sink, but this is no way trespasses on the notion of an Original Cause and an Intelligent Life-Force – whatever that might be.
I was taught Christianity from a young age, but it no way hindered my progress on my True Path later. So, you are right, it is the parents. What sort of parents; how they teach, why they teach, their private motive for teaching, and whether they damage the child leaving it with problems later in life. Add to this, the type of religion, what sort of priest and how it is taught, etc., Lastly add, what kind of child etc., All of these are complicated differentials in a very complex world, so I would be foolish to attempt an answer, so I won't.
As to REALITY, let me say a few words. Reality is only a realisation of the senses. What things and beings TRULY are, is a Mystery to science, religion, philosophy and therefore to the majority of us at the present time. Things and beings as they truly ARE I would not call reality, but Actuality. But I suppose that's up for discussion.
As for Adam and eve, that comes under the heading ‘symbolism', along with nearly all picture language in religions, myths etc., Later, these symbols were ALL made out to be real historical occurrences – hence the present difficulties. This is yet another point for discussion.
Lastly the afterlife. Whether there is, or is not, a afterlife, should in no way effect how we live our lives at present… we are Here and should get on with it the best way we know how, with that I am in total agreement – but this in no way proves or disproves an afterlife.

What emerges from the above are five possible discussions:
(a)The nature of reason and faith
(b)Evolution and an Intelligent Life-Force
(c)Reality and Actuality
(d)Symbology or picture language
(e)An afterlife

I am happy to begin a discussion with you on any one of the above separately, otherwise much confusion will arise. You make the choice if you wish and see where we go from there.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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12/20/2010 6:40:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/18/2010 6:02:35 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 12/18/2010 5:59:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death, and eventually to control them utterly. I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon. I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion, but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Pass...

Religion is like a pill, if swallowed it can heal many ailments, but if chewed, it will be thrown up !

Religion is like a placebo pill, if swallowed, it can heal many ailments, but if chewed, it is exposed as a fraud!
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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12/20/2010 6:40:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 6:26:25 PM, Ogan wrote:
Thank you for joining me in this forum, Ogan. I believe we have much to discuss. The first thing I would like to discuss is the ongoing escalation of religion in America. I mentioned people holding on to it like a crutch. It seems to me that I may have been only half right. I believe much of the blame belongs to the parents.
The child is basically indoctrinated, unwillingly, into a religion before they are old enough to know any better. This is a form of brainwashing, no more, no less. Unfortunately, these people seem unaware of any other REALITY, even after reaching adulthood.
Reality is that modern science has disproven many aspects of organized religion, but it seems logic is powerless against these archaic, and dangerous ideas which are forced on the children. In America, Christianity has taken a hold of otherwise intelligent, reasonable people. We even have policy makers who do not believe in evolution! Huh? How badly brainwashed do you have to be, in order to believe that the entire world population originated with one couple?
Finally, these people believe, without any doubt, that the rest of us are bound for some miserable afterlife. My answer to all of them is this: While you live your LIFE waiting to die, I will live my life to the fullest extent, with the belief that when I die, my remains will go back into the earth to feed another life. Pass...

Thank you also for your interesting input. Tragically, the problem you have mentioned is a global problem at this time, not just America. It is also the case with many different types and sects of organised religion. Humanity seems to have entered a very crucial transition – a kind of schizophrenic struggle between Faith and Reason.
It is quite easy to disprove anything within known religions using the ‘reasoning' powers, and for the ‘faithful' to follow strange beliefs regardless of any rational arguments. One point is evolution. The fact is, all things and beings must evolve – or sink, but this is no way trespasses on the notion of an Original Cause and an Intelligent Life-Force – whatever that might be.
I was taught Christianity from a young age, but it no way hindered my progress on my True Path later. So, you are right, it is the parents. What sort of parents; how they teach, why they teach, their private motive for teaching, and whether they damage the child leaving it with problems later in life. Add to this, the type of religion, what sort of priest and how it is taught, etc., Lastly add, what kind of child etc., All of these are complicated differentials in a very complex world, so I would be foolish to attempt an answer, so I won't.
As to REALITY, let me say a few words. Reality is only a realisation of the senses. What things and beings TRULY are, is a Mystery to science, religion, philosophy and therefore to the majority of us at the present time. Things and beings as they truly ARE I would not call reality, but Actuality. But I suppose that's up for discussion.
As for Adam and eve, that comes under the heading ‘symbolism', along with nearly all picture language in religions, myths etc., Later, these symbols were ALL made out to be real historical occurrences – hence the present difficulties. This is yet another point for discussion.
Lastly the afterlife. Whether there is, or is not, a afterlife, should in no way effect how we live our lives at present… we are Here and should get on with it the best way we know how, with that I am in total agreement – but this in no way proves or disproves an afterlife.

What emerges from the above are five possible discussions:
(a)The nature of reason and faith
(b)Evolution and an Intelligent Life-Force
(c)Reality and Actuality
(d)Symbology or picture language
(e)An afterlife

I am happy to begin a discussion with you on any one of the above separately, otherwise much confusion will arise. You make the choice if you wish and see where we go from there.

Outstanding organizational skills, sir. I definitely choose 'the nature of reason and faith.' I would like you to begin, so I may better follow the dialogue, and appropriately respond.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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12/21/2010 3:59:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Outstanding organizational skills, sir. I definitely choose 'the nature of reason and faith.' I would like you to begin, so I may better follow the dialogue, and appropriately respond.

Thank you Gavin. Take your time with this one. Christmas rush... dashing around… children excited… excuse delays.

It is said that the "…Truth can only be learned after much strife and dissention within the Mind, which must first overcome itself before that which is Good can be set at liberty, and is no longer ensnared in the fields of Illusion."

How true… but let us run. I will be as brief and as condensed as possible. I will not bore you with all the usual technicalities and endless descriptions of Reason and Faith, but will merely request that you draw a picture if you will. First, draw a circle; draw a horizontal line to half it; then shade in the lower half. You may put a Dot at the centre, but imagine it to represent a brilliant Point of Light. Now imagine a Planet circling in a clockwise orbit at whatever distance you like. First, it dives into the Deep of Night and gradually, as slow as you like, it nears the bottom; then sweeping on its unwavering orbit upwards, finally breaks the surface and begins the upward flight toward the zenith in the Dome of Day, and finally, begins the Fall toward the Deep of Night again. This is a geometrical explanation of our present predicament – the Planet however, when diving into the Deep of Night, is temporarily clothed with its watery but clinging substance – just like a hand hidden in a glove, until at the moment of leaving, the Deep claims her glove back, and the ‘Hand' re-awakens! A simple image, but I wonder if you are able to deduce other meanings – there is certainly a whole load of Fish to be caught in its Net, should you wish to. I may wish to use this symbol now and then during our talk.

But onwards… Theology has perplexed Faith and tried to Mime it by enforcing incomprehensible dogmas in metaphysics; at the same time Science has strengthened its scepticism, by being able to ‘pull down the tottering remains of spiritual intuition in mankind' by clearly demonstrating its fallibilities – but yet… Eternal Truth can never be destroyed! The nature of Reason is rightly justified in seeking out the weaknesses in what is presented openly before it, and if it be false in any way, it will be smashed with the hammer of reason by highly skilled rational interrogations who happen to be the soldiers of Doubt. But fear not! For if it be True, the hammer will be humbled and know its place – that is to say, in the wise and good man. In other words Truth is harder by far and more eternally adamantine than any diamond or hammer, but it is a good thing that the hammer should shatter any ‘diamond Mimicry' present, however painful the disillusion may turn out to be – it can do naught else but good for the Real Stone. But it, reason, can in no way define Faith, for if it could define it, it would no longer be Faith, but would itself be transformed into reason, just as Agent Smith was able to clone others into himself, in the Matrix. It was once said, and I quote loosely, "if it is true that believing too much renders a man a fool, it is also true that too much scepticism renders him mad. I prefer to suffer from the former of these two ailments if you please!".
But Faith is quite a different kettle of fish to what people imagine. It is ultimately connected with all religion, science, philosophy, ethics and the arts, but may only work its secret wonder within a particular kind of Individual; one who has earned such a Power – the results of this real Faith however being incapable of communication from one to another, apart from the outer expression of goodness, sane thinking and a strong, harmonic disposition – plus a sense of humour!
In truth, I seek not to explain Faith or Reason, but to put them back where they both belong – in the UNITY. They can not survive without one another. One is Day and one is Night; one is connected, or should be, to direct phenomena through the higher Senses and Inspiration, the other, to ‘clothed' or indirect phenomena through the lower Senses and reason. Both are needed on the Great Adventure.
In the Night, reason inspects with formal tools the glove, but knows not who or what is the Prime Mover. In the Day, the awakened Mind absorbs the Truth, Beauty and Goodness of its Self, and other Selves, like Nectar and Ambrosia, but although joyfully Free, it is still far from dis-covering the actual Prime Mover, who in ancient times was called "The Blazing Divine Dragon of Wisdom".
When reason is ‘lost' (madness) during say, a crisis, it is because there is no magnetic, living Faith to keep the Treasured Balance. It is during these experiences of crisis that all manner of delusions which gave false security and stability are knocked away, and without a worthwhile replacement, imbalance of the reason and disharmony is the tragic result. These delusions are the false or corrupted teachings which imprison the majority of the ‘faithful'; and also the very imaginative, clever but temporary theories which imprison the majority of the ‘rational'. A lot of people suffer from a mixture of both.
What is this treasured balance? When True Religion and True Science are ONE! How is it achieved? By struggle and dedication at the edge of the Unknown, where science now finds herself, but unable to define with any reasonable explanation the Intelligent Life Force infused and active in all the complex motions and forces of all the universes, right from the atoms up. What it needs now above all else in an unbalanced world is Faith that it will receive an answer, for without this Faith and the resulting Inspiration, the imbalance will continue to grow more critical. But what should she have Faith in? That the Laws of the Hidden Forces and their Sources have always been known from ancient times and are explained clearly in a symbolical manner, and should be planted into the reason for crystallisation. Although religions contain many beautiful gems for the use of those who follow, they remain in ignorance of the actual True Laws. This is why the Messengers in the past spoke in parables and mythology, because we were not ready for the True Laws, for reasons you may have surmised by now. They have to be earned!
Some strange thinkers separating the two protagonists Spirit and Matter, supporting one or supporting the other, each thinking they are endangered by the other! I have even heard it said that Spirit is not a substance! Then I say it does not exist! They should say Spirit is not the substance that we know on this level of vibrations, but the invisible substantial hand that moves it!
I have thrown a few thoughts to you which are far, far from complete, but I do hope they are of some use in this introduction. To save any more length I will end for now. If we are not in tune, it cannot be helped.
Pass..
SuperRobotWars
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12/21/2010 4:05:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/18/2010 5:59:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death, and eventually to control them utterly. I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon. I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion, but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Pass...

Who wants to die . . . ? Personally I want to live forever and I shall use science to get there . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
gavin.ogden
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12/21/2010 4:55:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/21/2010 3:59:07 PM, Ogan wrote:
I have thrown a few thoughts to you which are far, far from complete, but I do hope they are of some use in this introduction. To save any more length I will end for now. If we are not in tune, it cannot be helped.
Pass..

Thank you for that extremely well written introduction, and let me assure you that we are definitely in tune. I do not deny the existence or importance of spirituality, as a cornerstone for humanity. I do deny, however, that spirituality and religion have anything to do with one another. There is an energy shared by everyone, and everything. In fact, that is all any of us are, in the end. For example, if using a strong enough microscope, one could deduce that no object actually ever touches another... EVER! There are always electrons, protons, and neutrons between ALL matter. How does everyone in a circle somehow know who is going to speak next? It is a subconscious sharing of energy. That person is sitting on something, and wants to be heard, so he/she sends out THAT energy. Human beings are social creatures by nature, but what decides our social circles? People sharing the same type of energy tend to come together some how. Positive people tend to surround themselves with other positive people, and vice versa. We do not need religion to tell us that killing and stealing are wrong. In fact, more people have been murdered in the name of RELIGION, than any other cause by far. Why do people insist on taking archaic scriptures, written by primitive half wits, literally? In my humble opinion, Religion is the enemy of freedom and spirituality. I hope we are still in tune. Pass...
SuperRobotWars
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12/21/2010 5:02:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/21/2010 4:55:01 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 12/21/2010 3:59:07 PM, Ogan wrote:
I have thrown a few thoughts to you which are far, far from complete, but I do hope they are of some use in this introduction. To save any more length I will end for now. If we are not in tune, it cannot be helped.
Pass..

Thank you for that extremely well written introduction, and let me assure you that we are definitely in tune. I do not deny the existence or importance of spirituality, as a cornerstone for humanity. I do deny, however, that spirituality and religion have anything to do with one another. There is an energy shared by everyone, and everything. In fact, that is all any of us are, in the end. For example, if using a strong enough microscope, one could deduce that no object actually ever touches another... EVER! There are always electrons, protons, and neutrons between ALL matter. How does everyone in a circle somehow know who is going to speak next? It is a subconscious sharing of energy. That person is sitting on something, and wants to be heard, so he/she sends out THAT energy. Human beings are social creatures by nature, but what decides our social circles? People sharing the same type of energy tend to come together some how. Positive people tend to surround themselves with other positive people, and vice versa. We do not need religion to tell us that killing and stealing are wrong. In fact, more people have been murdered in the name of RELIGION, than any other cause by far. Why do people insist on taking archaic scriptures, written by primitive half wits, literally? In my humble opinion, Religion is the enemy of freedom and spirituality. I hope we are still in tune. Pass...

AT field . . . ?
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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12/21/2010 6:00:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/18/2010 5:59:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death, and eventually to control them utterly. I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon. I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion, but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Pass...

That is the dumbest thing I've heard today .... C'mon man where is your brain?
Ill debate you on any sentence you said in this paragraph "pass" is the exception :) , I used to think you were cool but wow that's something I would expect a troll to say.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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12/21/2010 6:10:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/21/2010 6:00:42 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 12/18/2010 5:59:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I believe the concept of religion is simply a man made device, originally to help people cope with death, and eventually to control them utterly. I also believe it has gotten out of control, and eventually WILL lead to Armageddon. I truly believe our intellect has surpassed the need for religion, but for some reason beyond me, people hold on to it like a crutch.

Pass...

That is the dumbest thing I've heard today .... C'mon man where is your brain?
Ill debate you on any sentence you said in this paragraph "pass" is the exception :) , I used to think you were cool but wow that's something I would expect a troll to say.

My brain is fully intact, and this thread was not meant to offend anyone. Not that it even should, considering it is my personal feeling. My qualm with religion also has nothing to do with my 'cool' status. Ogan and I decided to start this thread, so we may discuss certain issues in depth, and so we could go beyond the scope of everyday debate. Again, it was really not meant for anyone else, and I am sorry that you have lost personal respect for me based on one matter of personal opinion. Also, this is not a matter of debate, as it is strictly an opinion. Trolls desire a reaction out of others, while I am attempting to have a one on one discussion with a friend. These are far different, and you know I am not a troll.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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12/22/2010 2:30:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Thank you for that extremely well written introduction, and let me assure you that we are definitely in tune. I do not deny the existence or importance of spirituality, as a cornerstone for humanity. I do deny, however, that spirituality and religion have anything to do with one another. There is an energy shared by everyone, and everything. In fact, that is all any of us are, in the end. For example, if using a strong enough microscope, one could deduce that no object actually ever touches another... EVER! There are always electrons, protons, and neutrons between ALL matter. How does everyone in a circle somehow know who is going to speak next? It is a subconscious sharing of energy. That person is sitting on something, and wants to be heard, so he/she sends out THAT energy. Human beings are social creatures by nature, but what decides our social circles? People sharing the same type of energy tend to come together some how. Positive people tend to surround themselves with other positive people, and vice versa. We do not need religion to tell us that killing and stealing are wrong. In fact, more people have been murdered in the name of RELIGION, than any other cause by far. Why do people insist on taking archaic scriptures, written by primitive half wits, literally? In my humble opinion, Religion is the enemy of freedom and spirituality. I hope we are still in tune. Pass...

Thank you Gavin for your kind comments; it is truly a good and rare thing to be in tune, and very beneficial and much appreciated by both parties. Also, well done for standing your ground, I salute you! During a pleasant meal of bread and wine spread on a pure white sheet, there are always pesky crows to deal with – it is not their fault, they have to eat also, but they will disperse when they realise the fare is not suited to their palate. Who knows, we may attract the attention of a Falcon or a Bluebird if we are ‘lucky'.

Anyway… a few more thoughts: I am pleased you described spirituality as ‘a cornerstone for humanity', even though that is rarely recognised now by the many warring factions or fragments. Every single member of the human family is extremely important, each being utterly unique and unlike any other – apart from their opposite completion. And within each unique Individual is hidden the Treasure of Treasures, which can only be dis-covered by that Individual. All religious texts, spiritual teachings, philosophical and psychological explanations are merely signposts along the Way. And though the signposts are at times indispensable – if they be True – it is the Individual struggling along the Way in the Great Adventure that is far more important. Religions and Mythologies are the unconscious receptacles of a lot of these sacred signposts, but their followers and modern scholars know it not. One may be fooled by distorted signposts now and then, but this is all part of learning and growing up process – and the influence of them lasts only as long as we allow. As we progress, many of the things we once cherished and felt the need to defend are later seen as distorted aspects of a greater, more unified vision, and are eventually thrown away as unnecessary baggage.

Yes, I agree, there is after all, an intelligent energy shared by everyone, intelligent because moved and manipulated by Mind. It is interesting, but years ago in my youth I began to construct an essay entitled ‘Surface'. I never finished it, presumeably because when deeply inspected all matter disappeared into mist, and there was therefore nothing to write about. I realised that all phenomena consisted of Force perceived as matter with our limited physical senses. Also, that all things and beings are Spheres of Force focussed upon some outward manifested form for an unknown learning and evolving purpose; the denser form itself being a temporary collection around a blueprint of an uncountable number of smaller spheres of force, or atoms. When a hand is pressed with great force against a wall the magnetic fields of the atoms of each repel one another, otherwise the hand and the wall would mix. Therefore you are quite correct in what you say, namely, that nothing has every touched anything else – even if they mix!

In the ancient times this was called, and still is, the Auric Egg or Auric Envelope. The Circle is the geometrical symbol of the Auric Egg or Sphere. The outside shell was and is called the ‘Ring Pass Not'. The Original O is both the Virgin Source and the Container of all phenomena manifesting within Its Substance and sphere of influence. But only after the One, the Male Sun, symbolised by the dot in the centre of the circle, lights up His sphere in the beginning – then the ‘Mother Lotus' is impregnated and gives birth to the Cosmos. The Zero or O is No-thing on our plane of vibrations. It is the ultimate Source from which and to which all is turning until the circuit is completed and Night once again reigns supreme – on THIS plane for a certain period of our Time.

As regards the Radiant Child of the Two… note in Stanza III of ‘The Stanzas of Dzyan':

7. BEHOLD, OH LANOO! (Chela or Disciple) THE RADIANT CHILD OF THE TWO, THE UNPARALLELED REFULGENT GLORY: BRIGHT SPACE SON OF DARK SPACE, WHICH EMERGES FROM THE DEPTHS OF THE GREAT DARK WATERS. IT IS OEAOHOO THE YOUNGER... HE SHINES FORTH AS THE SON; HE IS THE BLAZING DIVINE DRAGON OF WISDOM… BEHOLD HIM LIFTING THE VEIL AND UNFURLING IT FROM EAST TO WEST. HE SHUTS OUT THE ABOVE, AND LEAVES THE BELOW TO BE SEEN AS THE GREAT ILLUSION. HE MARKS THE PLACES FOR THE SHINING ONES, AND TURNS THE UPPER INTO A SHORELESS SEA OF FIRE, AND THE ONE MANIFESTED INTO THE GREAT WATERS.
(n.b. think of the circle you drew earlier)

Apart from the Mind and Energy aspects there is also the invisible Medium, this is the Ether. Some genius said, and I quote loosely again: "Ether is a kind of mathematical substance necessary to explain the propagation of light, heat and electricity". Also, within that Ether, there happens to be atomic, planetary, kosmic, universal as well as human attractions and repulsions – sympathy and antipathy. In fact, there are said to be 7 Fundamental Laws. For example, the Hermetic Philosophy gives:

1)The Law of "the ALL" in ALL
2)The Law of Correspondence
3)The Law of Vibration
4)The Law of Polarity
5)The Law of Rhythm
6)The Law of Causation
7)The Law of Gender

These Laws need deep study and meditation before any sense can be made of the seeming complexity within all Creation.

As regards Religion, we must realise that the poor worn-out fragments that have passed for religion for thousands of years are not the true representatives of the One Religion – which also happens to be in complete harmony with and the completion of Science. However, because there are so many types of mankind all with the free will to choose, as well as variable cycles we are passing through, there have emerged many religions and sects which are deemed to be worth defending by their followers. Some need these things, and they also have good things within them, and that's fine – but only as long as they are tolerant of others views and opinions with which they differ. Humanity is a complex mix of all kinds of evolved and lesser evolved beings and most are unable to reside in the same space without friction – such is this Hall of Sorrow. This will only be resolved by the emergence of a New Global Religion based firmly upon the Laws of the Universe and their Source. I am fairly certain that Science is nearing the critical point where certain discoveries will be forthcoming and change the whole perspective of how we view ourselves, one another and the universe, and how we have been unwittingly holding the Timeless Keys all along. But that is by the way.

Lastly, yes, we are still in tune, as long as you decide we are so.
Pass…