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rnjs
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6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.

Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.

As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
lightseeker
Posts: 1,023
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6/30/2016 2:08:56 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.

As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.

so you expect God to just fulfill people's wishes, no matter what they are?
and how do you know that angels die?
or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/30/2016 2:25:45 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 2:08:56 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.

As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.

so you expect God to just fulfill people's wishes, no matter what they are?
and how do you know that angels die?
or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?

Faust answered the question, who are you to accuse him of anything?
Can't you supply the evidence that he requested?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
lightseeker
Posts: 1,023
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6/30/2016 2:32:49 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 2:25:45 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/30/2016 2:08:56 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.

As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.

so you expect God to just fulfill people's wishes, no matter what they are?
and how do you know that angels die?
or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?

Faust answered the question, who are you to accuse him of anything?
Can't you supply the evidence that he requested?

is he your father?
why do you even care about me asking him a question?
you're just a child in mind. don't interfere with big guy's matters.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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6/30/2016 2:38:55 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.

The sun to skip a day.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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6/30/2016 2:45:25 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 2:08:56 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.

As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.

so you expect God to just fulfill people's wishes, no matter what they are?

Where in any of that did you get "wish fulfillment"?

and how do you know that angels die?

If there is some variety of battle between heaven and hell, and Angels/demons are the soldiers, it does no good if they are immortal.

or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?

I think the better question is why shouldn't they. Throughout the Bible there are references to both angels and demons, and each time, they have solid forms.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
PureX
Posts: 1,522
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6/30/2016 2:53:01 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
That existence is ordered.

That the order within existence implies intent.

That existence can 'transcend' itself.

That existence is self-aware.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/30/2016 2:56:35 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 2:32:49 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 2:25:45 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/30/2016 2:08:56 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.

As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.

so you expect God to just fulfill people's wishes, no matter what they are?
and how do you know that angels die?
or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?

Faust answered the question, who are you to accuse him of anything?
Can't you supply the evidence that he requested?

is he your father?
why do you even care about me asking him a question?
you're just a child in mind. don't interfere with big guy's matters.
hahahaha I love the way children protect their non knowledge.
Can't you supply the evidence that he requested?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
lightseeker
Posts: 1,023
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6/30/2016 3:04:49 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 2:45:25 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 2:08:56 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.
As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.
so you expect God to just fulfill people's wishes, no matter what they are?
Where in any of that did you get "wish fulfillment"?
well, you wanted a repeatable methodology to successful prayer.
successful prayers are those which are fulfilled, true.
so you wanted a way to pray which would always be accepted. as I right?
but what I can tell you is this, good prayers are accepted and answered. even if they aren't fulfilled while you live, they'll have a great effect in your afterlife.

and how do you know that angels die?
If there is some variety of battle between heaven and hell, and Angels/demons are the soldiers, it does no good if they are immortal.
there is no angel/demon battle man. Satan doesn't and can't fight angels. Satan just tempts and misguides people. that's about all it does. tempting and misguiding. if you want to know them better, think of them as trained dogs, which will attack those who are strayed from the right path. if there were a battlefield, the arena would be human choice, and the battle was to invite human to good and bad. and as for any invitation, as a human you have the choice to turn it down, or accept it.
angels are immortal, Satan and his army are jinn, which just like human, can choose between right and wrong.
there are jinns which are good, and those which are bad.

or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?
I think the better question is why shouldn't they. Throughout the Bible there are references to both angels and demons, and each time, they have solid forms.
I give you an example. sound. does it have a solid physical body? sound fades, yet do you see sound's skeleton?
also, scientific discoveries show that there might be more than 4 dimension in our universe.
take a look at dark matter.
it exists, and we can measure it's gravity, but we cant detect it.
and Quran says, they (demons) see you, from where you can't see them.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/30/2016 3:15:00 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 3:04:49 PM, lightseeker wrote:
there is no angel/demon battle man
Of course, because only man exists.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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6/30/2016 3:24:58 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 3:04:49 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 2:45:25 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 2:08:56 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.
As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.
so you expect God to just fulfill people's wishes, no matter what they are?
Where in any of that did you get "wish fulfillment"?
well, you wanted a repeatable methodology to successful prayer.
successful prayers are those which are fulfilled, true.
so you wanted a way to pray which would always be accepted. as I right?

No, a way in which the prayers that worked were recognizable form the prayers that weren't. Some people pray just to say "thanks". A "your welcome" tossed some where in there would be awesome, and that hardly qualifies as a wish fulfillment.

but what I can tell you is this, good prayers are accepted and answered. even if they aren't fulfilled while you live, they'll have a great effect in your afterlife.

and how do you know that angels die?
If there is some variety of battle between heaven and hell, and Angels/demons are the soldiers, it does no good if they are immortal.

there is no angel/demon battle man. Satan doesn't and can't fight angels. Satan just tempts and misguides people. that's about all it does. tempting and misguiding. if you want to know them better, think of them as trained dogs, which will attack those who are strayed from the right path. if there were a battlefield, the arena would be human choice, and the battle was to invite human to good and bad. and as for any invitation, as a human you have the choice to turn it down, or accept it.

According to the Bible, that is pretty much completely false. 1/3rd of the angles were cast down for following Lucifer. Satan WAS an angel, so it stands to reason he can compete with them.

angels are immortal, Satan and his army are jinn, which just like human, can choose between right and wrong.

This is really just highlighting why religion needs to have evidence behind it.

there are jinns which are good, and those which are bad.

or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?
I think the better question is why shouldn't they. Throughout the Bible there are references to both angels and demons, and each time, they have solid forms.

I give you an example. sound. does it have a solid physical body? sound fades, yet do you see sound's skeleton?

I give you an example: wrestling with a person. Much like an angel did. That requires a physical body. And I will give you another example: having sex with a person. Much like demons did, according (both examples) to the Bible.

also, scientific discoveries show that there might be more than 4 dimension in our universe.

take a look at dark matter. it exists, and we can measure it's gravity, but we cant detect it.

I was not aware that measuring something was exclusive of detecting it.

and Quran says, they (demons) see you, from where you can't see them.

That doesn't mean much. A person in disguise can see some one from not being seen. Some one behind a 2 way mirror can do that. Some one looking out a window of a building can do that. Each of those, however mundane, rely on something that can be experimented with for validity.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
lightseeker
Posts: 1,023
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6/30/2016 3:47:30 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 3:15:00 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/30/2016 3:04:49 PM, lightseeker wrote:
there is no angel/demon battle man
Of course, because only man exists.

so, you don't have birds in your country? just human?
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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6/30/2016 3:51:54 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 3:47:30 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 3:15:00 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 6/30/2016 3:04:49 PM, lightseeker wrote:
there is no angel/demon battle man
Of course, because only man exists.

so, you don't have birds in your country? just human?
So which are you claiming are birds.........................angels or demons?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
lightseeker
Posts: 1,023
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6/30/2016 4:05:32 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 3:24:58 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 3:04:49 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 2:45:25 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 2:08:56 PM, lightseeker wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.
As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.
so you expect God to just fulfill people's wishes, no matter what they are?
Where in any of that did you get "wish fulfillment"?
well, you wanted a repeatable methodology to successful prayer.
successful prayers are those which are fulfilled, true.
so you wanted a way to pray which would always be accepted. as I right?

No, a way in which the prayers that worked were recognizable form the prayers that weren't. Some people pray just to say "thanks". A "your welcome" tossed some where in there would be awesome, and that hardly qualifies as a wish fulfillment.
well, forget about God. imagine that you want a loan from someone. if all you did was to anger that person, would you really expect him to help you when you needed him?
become as he wants, and you'll find your prayers answered.

but what I can tell you is this, good prayers are accepted and answered. even if they aren't fulfilled while you live, they'll have a great effect in your afterlife.
and how do you know that angels die?
If there is some variety of battle between heaven and hell, and Angels/demons are the soldiers, it does no good if they are immortal.
there is no angel/demon battle man. Satan doesn't and can't fight angels. Satan just tempts and misguides people. that's about all it does. tempting and misguiding. if you want to know them better, think of them as trained dogs, which will attack those who are strayed from the right path. if there were a battlefield, the arena would be human choice, and the battle was to invite human to good and bad. and as for any invitation, as a human you have the choice to turn it down, or accept it.
According to the Bible, that is pretty much completely false. 1/3rd of the angles were cast down for following Lucifer. Satan WAS an angel, so it stands to reason he can compete with them.
well, why not use Quran? it's the unchanged word of God. and is actually very logical.

angels are immortal, Satan and his army are jinn, which just like human, can choose between right and wrong.
This is really just highlighting why religion needs to have evidence behind it.
what kind of evidence you're looking for? if you don't accept logic, you won't accept miracles.

there are jinns which are good, and those which are bad.
or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?
I think the better question is why shouldn't they. Throughout the Bible there are references to both angels and demons, and each time, they have solid forms.
I give you an example. sound. does it have a solid physical body? sound fades, yet do you see sound's skeleton?
I give you an example: wrestling with a person. Much like an angel did. That requires a physical body. And I will give you another example: having sex with a person. Much like demons did, according (both examples) to the Bible.
again. use Quran. bible is changed. there are too many contradictions in it. they say Jesus is God. and that he turned water into wine, and Jacob wrestled with God (or was it an angle?)
also, angels or demons can manifest themselves into material bodies. it's just that they aren't allowed to do so, unless with an order from God or with the power of people like prophets.

also, scientific discoveries show that there might be more than 4 dimension in our universe.
take a look at dark matter. it exists, and we can measure it's gravity, but we cant detect it.
I was not aware that measuring something was exclusive of detecting it.
my point was that there are things that have an effect, but we have no tool to find them.
simply not being able to find something, doesn't automatically reject it.

and Quran says, they (demons) see you, from where you can't see them.
That doesn't mean much. A person in disguise can see some one from not being seen. Some one behind a 2 way mirror can do that. Some one looking out a window of a building can do that. Each of those, however mundane, rely on something that can be experimented with for validity.
and another option would be, to be in another dimension.
and black matter example is a good way to doubt that there is only 4 dimensions in this world.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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6/30/2016 4:22:12 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.
As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.
so you expect God to just fulfill people's wishes, no matter what they are?
Where in any of that did you get "wish fulfillment"?
well, you wanted a repeatable methodology to successful prayer.
successful prayers are those which are fulfilled, true.
so you wanted a way to pray which would always be accepted. as I right?

No, a way in which the prayers that worked were recognizable form the prayers that weren't. Some people pray just to say "thanks". A "your welcome" tossed some where in there would be awesome, and that hardly qualifies as a wish fulfillment.
well, forget about God. imagine that you want a loan from someone. if all you did was to anger that person, would you really expect him to help you when you needed him?
become as he wants, and you'll find your prayers answered.

You just totally ignored the point, as well as the example, FYI.

but what I can tell you is this, good prayers are accepted and answered. even if they aren't fulfilled while you live, they'll have a great effect in your afterlife.
and how do you know that angels die?
If there is some variety of battle between heaven and hell, and Angels/demons are the soldiers, it does no good if they are immortal.
there is no angel/demon battle man. Satan doesn't and can't fight angels. Satan just tempts and misguides people. that's about all it does. tempting and misguiding. if you want to know them better, think of them as trained dogs, which will attack those who are strayed from the right path. if there were a battlefield, the arena would be human choice, and the battle was to invite human to good and bad. and as for any invitation, as a human you have the choice to turn it down, or accept it.
According to the Bible, that is pretty much completely false. 1/3rd of the angles were cast down for following Lucifer. Satan WAS an angel, so it stands to reason he can compete with them.

well, why not use Quran? it's the unchanged word of God. and is actually very logical.

49 people were killed in my back yard because some one believed the Quran, or at least various interpretations of it. The Quran and the Bible hold the same validity to me.

angels are immortal, Satan and his army are jinn, which just like human, can choose between right and wrong.
This is really just highlighting why religion needs to have evidence behind it.

what kind of evidence you're looking for? if you don't accept logic, you won't accept miracles.

... you realize that was the initial postings I put forth, and thus far you have done nothing to address those. Miracles by their nature defy logic, I don't see how accepting one means I should accept the other.

there are jinns which are good, and those which are bad.
or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?
I think the better question is why shouldn't they. Throughout the Bible there are references to both angels and demons, and each time, they have solid forms.
I give you an example. sound. does it have a solid physical body? sound fades, yet do you see sound's skeleton?
I give you an example: wrestling with a person. Much like an angel did. That requires a physical body. And I will give you another example: having sex with a person. Much like demons did, according (both examples) to the Bible.

again. use Quran. bible is changed. there are too many contradictions in it. they say Jesus is God. and that he turned water into wine, and Jacob wrestled with God (or was it an angle?)

Again, no thank you. I have qualms about relators of ultimate morality taking child brides.

also, angels or demons can manifest themselves into material bodies. it's just that they aren't allowed to do so, unless with an order from God or with the power of people like prophets.

So when the Biblical flood occurred we should find said bodies. Or said material bodies should have left some variety of genetic trace in graves we found.


also, scientific discoveries show that there might be more than 4 dimension in our universe.
take a look at dark matter. it exists, and we can measure it's gravity, but we cant detect it.
I was not aware that measuring something was exclusive of detecting it.

my point was that there are things that have an effect, but we have no tool to find them.

Then how did we measure it? You want me to look at a holy book that you claim has no contradictions, but state we have measured something that we have no tool to find.

simply not being able to find something, doesn't automatically reject it.

Then how did we measure it?

and Quran says, they (demons) see you, from where you can't see them.
That doesn't mean much. A person in disguise can see some one from not being seen. Some one behind a 2 way mirror can do that. Some one looking out a window of a building can do that. Each of those, however mundane, rely on something that can be experimented with for validity.


and another option would be, to be in another dimension.

And another option is that djinn are space aliens and the Prophet engaged in communication with space faring races that seemed supernatural because they had superior technology.

and black matter example is a good way to doubt that there is only 4 dimensions in this world.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
lightseeker
Posts: 1,023
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6/30/2016 5:46:52 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 4:22:12 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons. People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.
As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.
so you expect God to just fulfill people's wishes, no matter what they are?
Where in any of that did you get "wish fulfillment"?
well, you wanted a repeatable methodology to successful prayer.
successful prayers are those which are fulfilled, true.
so you wanted a way to pray which would always be accepted. as I right?

No, a way in which the prayers that worked were recognizable form the prayers that weren't. Some people pray just to say "thanks". A "your welcome" tossed some where in there would be awesome, and that hardly qualifies as a wish fulfillment.
well, forget about God. imagine that you want a loan from someone. if all you did was to anger that person, would you really expect him to help you when you needed him?
become as he wants, and you'll find your prayers answered.
You just totally ignored the point, as well as the example, FYI.
I don't think I did. you want a way to find out whether your prayer is accepted or rejected. like a yes/no sign. that would make God more like a wish fulfilling machine, in a sense that you'd send your wish, you'd get an answer, you'd send another one, and get another answer ...
and I told you, if you want your wish to come to pass, you'd have to meet the requirements.

but what I can tell you is this, good prayers are accepted and answered. even if they aren't fulfilled while you live, they'll have a great effect in your afterlife.
and how do you know that angels die?
If there is some variety of battle between heaven and hell, and Angels/demons are the soldiers, it does no good if they are immortal.
there is no angel/demon battle man. Satan doesn't and can't fight angels. Satan just tempts and misguides people. that's about all it does. tempting and misguiding. if you want to know them better, think of them as trained dogs, which will attack those who are strayed from the right path. if there were a battlefield, the arena would be human choice, and the battle was to invite human to good and bad. and as for any invitation, as a human you have the choice to turn it down, or accept it.
According to the Bible, that is pretty much completely false. 1/3rd of the angles were cast down for following Lucifer. Satan WAS an angel, so it stands to reason he can compete with them.
well, why not use Quran? it's the unchanged word of God. and is actually very logical.
49 people were killed in my back yard because some one believed the Quran, or at least various interpretations of it. The Quran and the Bible hold the same validity to me.
it's because you haven't really studied it.
and you don't accept the proofs about creation of these so called groups by US. and the Aid US' allies are providing to these groups. and the fact that US is Ok with it.

angels are immortal, Satan and his army are jinn, which just like human, can choose between right and wrong.
This is really just highlighting why religion needs to have evidence behind it.
what kind of evidence you're looking for? if you don't accept logic, you won't accept miracles.
... you realize that was the initial postings I put forth, and thus far you have done nothing to address those. Miracles by their nature defy logic, I don't see how accepting one means I should accept the other.
I realize that understanding something, and accepting it, are two different things.

there are jinns which are good, and those which are bad.
or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?
I think the better question is why shouldn't they. Throughout the Bible there are references to both angels and demons, and each time, they have solid forms.
I give you an example. sound. does it have a solid physical body? sound fades, yet do you see sound's skeleton?
I give you an example: wrestling with a person. Much like an angel did. That requires a physical body. And I will give you another example: having sex with a person. Much like demons did, according (both examples) to the Bible.
again. use Quran. bible is changed. there are too many contradictions in it. they say Jesus is God. and that he turned water into wine, and Jacob wrestled with God (or was it an angle?)
Again, no thank you. I have qualms about relators of ultimate morality taking child brides.
no pressure. be who you are and take responsibility for your actions and beliefs.

also, angels or demons can manifest themselves into material bodies. it's just that they aren't allowed to do so, unless with an order from God or with the power of people like prophets.
So when the Biblical flood occurred we should find said bodies. Or said material bodies should have left some variety of genetic trace in graves we found.
Biblical Flood? you mean Noah's flood?
I wonder how you got that from my explanation.
as I said, they can only manifest by order of God or by power of someone like a prophet (which that also would be by order of God).
how did you get the claim that there were in human form in the time of Flood?
and manifesting in the form of human, doesn't make them human.
it's just a change in form, and they can return to their original form.

also, scientific discoveries show that there might be more than 4 dimension in our universe.
take a look at dark matter. it exists, and we can measure it's gravity, but we cant detect it.
I was not aware that measuring something was exclusive of detecting it.
my point was that there are things that have an effect, but we have no tool to find them.
Then how did we measure it? You want me to look at a holy book that you claim has no contradictions, but state we have measured something that we have no tool to find.
again, I go back to the dark matter example. we know it exists, because of Gravity, but we can't detect what's causing that gravity, hence we call it dark matter. since only matter can have gravity ( at least as far as I know).
and if by
state we have measured something that we have no tool to find
you mean God, then I tell you that we haven't measured God!
it's impossible.
we know it's exists, because of the signs that point to it.

simply not being able to find something, doesn't automatically reject it.
Then how did we measure it?
measure what?
if you can logically prove something, and you also can find signs that point out to it's existence, then you know that it exist.

and another option would be, to be in another dimension.
And another option is that djinn are space aliens and the Prophet engaged in communication with space faring races that seemed supernatural because they had superior technology.
in our religion, we believe that there are a lot of other creatures in this vast world, that have their own social life.
and why would space aliens give prophet a book that would guide people to the right path?
what's in it for them?
matt8800
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6/30/2016 10:23:55 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.

If God was all powerful and all knowing, he would have the ability to clearly communicate in a way that nobody could deny. Since he is god, he should have no problem providing empirical proof.

If God wanted us to know he existed, he would be motivated to communicate.

We are still debating whether there is a God so he obviously has not clearly communicated nor is there a shred of empirical evidence. Even Christians argue about what different verses mean and which ones to take literally. If I was going to write a book about life wisdom to pass to my kids, there would be no confusion about what I meant to say. A semi-literate, incompetent moron could communicate more effectively than the bible.

Instead Christians claim that god will burn and torture people forever if they feel they cannot reliably believe something when no evidence was provided to support the belief. Christians call this justice.
dee-em
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6/30/2016 10:28:58 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.

The public resurrection of Albert Einstein with all his memories intact.
FaustianJustice
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7/1/2016 11:15:35 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
No, a way in which the prayers that worked were recognizable form the prayers that weren't. Some people pray just to say "thanks". A "your welcome" tossed some where in there would be awesome, and that hardly qualifies as a wish fulfillment.
well, forget about God. imagine that you want a loan from someone. if all you did was to anger that person, would you really expect him to help you when you needed him?
become as he wants, and you'll find your prayers answered.
You just totally ignored the point, as well as the example, FYI.
I don't think I did. you want a way to find out whether your prayer is accepted or rejected. like a yes/no sign. that would make God more like a wish fulfilling machine, ...

I believe you did. I don't care about the prayer being answered or not, provided there is some way of knowing it was received.

According to the Bible, that is pretty much completely false. 1/3rd of the angles were cast down for following Lucifer. Satan WAS an angel, so it stands to reason he can compete with them.
well, why not use Quran? it's the unchanged word of God. and is actually very logical.
49 people were killed in my back yard because some one believed the Quran, or at least various interpretations of it. The Quran and the Bible hold the same validity to me.
it's because you haven't really studied it.

I have no desire to study a book inspired by a man whom took a child bride, thanks. "Through the Looking Glass" has the same variety of appeal to me on that matter.

and you don't accept the proofs about creation of these so called groups by US. and the Aid US' allies are providing to these groups. and the fact that US is Ok with it.

The person in question self radicalized. The Boston bombers self radicalized. The San Diego shooters self radicalized. They received no help aside from the twisted up-bringing Islam gave them.

angels are immortal, Satan and his army are jinn, which just like human, can choose between right and wrong.
This is really just highlighting why religion needs to have evidence behind it.
what kind of evidence you're looking for? if you don't accept logic, you won't accept miracles.
... you realize that was the initial postings I put forth, and thus far you have done nothing to address those. Miracles by their nature defy logic, I don't see how accepting one means I should accept the other.
I realize that understanding something, and accepting it, are two different things.

there are jinns which are good, and those which are bad.
or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?
I think the better question is why shouldn't they. Throughout the Bible there are references to both angels and demons, and each time, they have solid forms.
I give you an example. sound. does it have a solid physical body? sound fades, yet do you see sound's skeleton?
I give you an example: wrestling with a person. Much like an angel did. That requires a physical body. And I will give you another example: having sex with a person. Much like demons did, according (both examples) to the Bible.
again. use Quran. bible is changed. there are too many contradictions in it. they say Jesus is God. and that he turned water into wine, and Jacob wrestled with God (or was it an angle?)
Again, no thank you. I have qualms about relators of ultimate morality taking child brides.
no pressure. be who you are and take responsibility for your actions and beliefs.

also, angels or demons can manifest themselves into material bodies. it's just that they aren't allowed to do so, unless with an order from God or with the power of people like prophets.
So when the Biblical flood occurred we should find said bodies. Or said material bodies should have left some variety of genetic trace in graves we found.
Biblical Flood? you mean Noah's flood?
I wonder how you got that from my explanation.
as I said, they can only manifest by order of God or by power of someone like a prophet (which that also would be by order of God).
how did you get the claim that there were in human form in the time of Flood?
and manifesting in the form of human, doesn't make them human.
it's just a change in form, and they can return to their original form.

The what was the point of flooding the Earth? ;)

also, scientific discoveries show that there might be more than 4 dimension in our universe.
take a look at dark matter. it exists, and we can measure it's gravity, but we cant detect it.
I was not aware that measuring something was exclusive of detecting it.
my point was that there are things that have an effect, but we have no tool to find them.
Then how did we measure it? You want me to look at a holy book that you claim has no contradictions, but state we have measured something that we have no tool to find.

again, I go back to the dark matter example. we know it exists, because of Gravity, but we can't detect what's causing that gravity, hence we call it dark matter. since only matter can have gravity ( at least as far as I know).

So then we CAN detect it.
and if by state we have measured something that we have no tool to find

No, Dark Matter.

you mean God, then I tell you that we haven't measured God! it's impossible.
We know it's exists, because of the signs that point to it.

Such as? That was the point of this thread, after all.

simply not being able to find something, doesn't automatically reject it.
Then how did we measure it?
measure what?

Dark matter.

if you can logically prove something, and you also can find signs that point out to it's existence, then you know that it exist.

and another option would be, to be in another dimension.
And another option is that djinn are space aliens and the Prophet engaged in communication with space faring races that seemed supernatural because they had superior technology.

in our religion, we believe that there are a lot of other creatures in this vast world, that have their own social life.

and why would space aliens give prophet a book that would guide people to the right path?

Why would God? (bear in mind, I am going to give that reason you give for God to the space aliens)
what's in it for them?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
dsjpk5
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7/1/2016 12:34:25 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons.

That would be rather difficult considering they're without bodies.

People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.

As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
FaustianJustice
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7/1/2016 1:03:00 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 12:34:25 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons.

That would be rather difficult considering they're without bodies.

According to the Bible, no, they are not, or at least when they take a body they are stuck there, as that was the point of Noah's Flood. To rid the world of demons and their concubine human mates, and angels very much have bodies, as they are represented through the Bible as having a physical form.

People turning into pillars of salt. The first born of nations all dying at once. A voice from the heavens. Failed "earth" hiding out behind Jupiter.

Some variety of repeatable methodology to successful prayer.

As it stands, God appears to be defined to fit the reality.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
dsjpk5
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7/1/2016 1:35:47 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 1:03:00 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/1/2016 12:34:25 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons.

That would be rather difficult considering they're without bodies.

According to the Bible, no, they are not, or at least when they take a body they are stuck there, as that was the point of Noah's Flood. To rid the world of demons and their concubine human mates, and angels very much have bodies, as they are represented through the Bible as having a physical form.

I would assert they have spiritual bodies devoid of bones that would make up a skeleton. And it's not a biblical certainty that one of missions of the flood was to destroy demons located on Earth.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
FaustianJustice
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7/1/2016 1:42:09 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 1:35:47 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 7/1/2016 1:03:00 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/1/2016 12:34:25 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons.

That would be rather difficult considering they're without bodies.

According to the Bible, no, they are not, or at least when they take a body they are stuck there, as that was the point of Noah's Flood. To rid the world of demons and their concubine human mates, and angels very much have bodies, as they are represented through the Bible as having a physical form.

I would assert they have spiritual bodies devoid of bones that would make up a skeleton.

What was it that Lot spoke with in S and G? Clearly, they were bodies of flesh and bone.

And it's not a biblical certainty that one of missions of the flood was to destroy
demons located on Earth.

I agree. Its interpretational, though its not a hard leap to make, considering the context. Assuming a flood would not kill said demons, though, what would be the point of repopulating the earth? Said demons would still be their, and just take up wives again.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
dsjpk5
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7/1/2016 2:34:50 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 1:42:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/1/2016 1:35:47 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 7/1/2016 1:03:00 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/1/2016 12:34:25 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:16:15 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons.

That would be rather difficult considering they're without bodies.

According to the Bible, no, they are not, or at least when they take a body they are stuck there, as that was the point of Noah's Flood. To rid the world of demons and their concubine human mates, and angels very much have bodies, as they are represented through the Bible as having a physical form.

I would assert they have spiritual bodies devoid of bones that would make up a skeleton.

What was it that Lot spoke with in S and G? Clearly, they were bodies of flesh and bone.

Why do you say they clearly are of flesh and bone? And, if, as you claim below, a flood can't kill them... how could a skeleton be possible if they can't die?

And it's not a biblical certainty that one of missions of the flood was to destroy
demons located on Earth.

I agree. Its interpretational, though its not a hard leap to make, considering the context. Assuming a flood would not kill said demons, though, what would be the point of repopulating the earth? Said demons would still be their, and just take up wives again.

I would assert these were not examples of demons.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Deb-8-A-Bull
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7/1/2016 3:06:02 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.

I would believe in God if he appeared in the form of a burning bush.
David_Debates
Posts: 244
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7/1/2016 3:40:12 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/30/2016 10:23:55 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/30/2016 1:00:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.

If God was all powerful and all knowing, he would have the ability to clearly communicate in a way that nobody could deny. Since he is god, he should have no problem providing empirical proof.

Of course he has the ability to do these things. But would he? I don't know. He also has the ability to kill us all right now because we don't all believe in him.

If God wanted us to know he existed, he would be motivated to communicate.

If God wanted us to worship him fully, he wouldn't have given us free will. He gave us free will to believe or not to believe.

We are still debating whether there is a God so he obviously has not clearly communicated nor is there a shred of empirical evidence.

What do you define as "communication?" Do you also mean indirect messages (not speech)? Also, empirical evidence. Who is to say that there isn't evidence for a creator of some kind?

Even Christians argue about what different verses mean and which ones to take literally. If I was going to write a book about life wisdom to pass to my kids, there would be no confusion about what I meant to say. A semi-literate, incompetent moron could communicate more effectively than the bible.

I've heard this argument before. Here is a logical statement
1) God is omniscient.
2) If humans are not omniscient, then they cannot fully understand an omniscient being.
3) Humans are not omniscient beings.
4) Therefore, humans cannot fully understand God.
This would undoubtedly lead to confusion, don't you think?

Instead Christians claim that god will burn and torture people forever if they feel they cannot reliably believe something when no evidence was provided to support the belief. Christians call this justice.

Another logical argument to counter:
1) Sin is punished by death.
2) All men have sinned.
3) Therefore, all men will be punished by death.
However, with Jesus, a counterexample is found that invalidates the above syllogism:
1) Sin is punished by death.
2) Jesus did not sin.
3) Jesus was a man.
4) Therefore, not all men will be punished by death.
This completely changes the above syllogism.
1) Sin is punished by death.
2) Those that believe in Jesus are no longer sinners.
3) Therefore, those that believe in Jesus are not punished by death.
This is the basic logic of a believer.
Also, God doesn't "burn and torture" unbelievers. He does not accept an unrepentant sinner into heaven. That is justice.
FaustianJustice
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7/1/2016 4:14:26 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons.

That would be rather difficult considering they're without bodies.

According to the Bible, no, they are not, or at least when they take a body they are stuck there, as that was the point of Noah's Flood. To rid the world of demons and their concubine human mates, and angels very much have bodies, as they are represented through the Bible as having a physical form.

I would assert they have spiritual bodies devoid of bones that would make up a skeleton.

What was it that Lot spoke with in S and G? Clearly, they were bodies of flesh and bone.

Why do you say they clearly are of flesh and bone?

The context of how they were presented, referred to, interacted with the world, etc. There is no reason to think they were anything other than that.

And, if, as you claim below, a flood can't kill them... how could a skeleton be possible if they can't die?

I didn't claim that, I assumed your position was true, and explained how then the flood would fail as means of the goal.

And it's not a biblical certainty that one of missions of the flood was to destroy
demons located on Earth.

I agree. Its interpretational, though its not a hard leap to make, considering the context. Assuming a flood would not kill said demons, though, what would be the point of repopulating the earth? Said demons would still be their, and just take up wives again.

I would assert these were not examples of demons.

A rose by any other name. "Nephilim", "giants", whatever you want. Demons.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
dsjpk5
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7/1/2016 5:40:12 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 4:14:26 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
What specific evidence would you accept as proof the existence of God and no generalities please, be specific.


Skeletonized angels. Skeletonized demons.

That would be rather difficult considering they're without bodies.

According to the Bible, no, they are not, or at least when they take a body they are stuck there, as that was the point of Noah's Flood. To rid the world of demons and their concubine human mates, and angels very much have bodies, as they are represented through the Bible as having a physical form.

I would assert they have spiritual bodies devoid of bones that would make up a skeleton.

What was it that Lot spoke with in S and G? Clearly, they were bodies of flesh and bone.

Why do you say they clearly are of flesh and bone?

The context of how they were presented, referred to, interacted with the world, etc. There is no reason to think they were anything other than that.

And, if, as you claim below, a flood can't kill them... how could a skeleton be possible if they can't die?

I didn't claim that, I assumed your position was true, and explained how then the flood would fail as means of the goal.


Except I don't believe they were demons

And it's not a biblical certainty that one of missions of the flood was to destroy
demons located on Earth.

I agree. Its interpretational, though its not a hard leap to make, considering the context. Assuming a flood would not kill said demons, though, what would be the point of repopulating the earth? Said demons would still be their, and just take up wives again.

I would assert these were not examples of demons.

A rose by any other name. "Nephilim", "giants", whatever you want. Demons.

Or sons of Seth mating with daughters of Cain. Not demons.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
lightseeker
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7/1/2016 6:07:47 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/1/2016 11:15:35 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
No, a way in which the prayers that worked were recognizable form the prayers that weren't. Some people pray just to say "thanks". A "your welcome" tossed some where in there would be awesome, and that hardly qualifies as a wish fulfillment.
well, forget about God. imagine that you want a loan from someone. if all you did was to anger that person, would you really expect him to help you when you needed him?
become as he wants, and you'll find your prayers answered.
You just totally ignored the point, as well as the example, FYI.
I don't think I did. you want a way to find out whether your prayer is accepted or rejected. like a yes/no sign. that would make God more like a wish fulfilling machine, ...
I believe you did. I don't care about the prayer being answered or not, provided there is some way of knowing it was received.
in death, you shall you.

According to the Bible, that is pretty much completely false. 1/3rd of the angles were cast down for following Lucifer. Satan WAS an angel, so it stands to reason he can compete with them.
well, why not use Quran? it's the unchanged word of God. and is actually very logical.
49 people were killed in my back yard because some one believed the Quran, or at least various interpretations of it. The Quran and the Bible hold the same validity to me.
it's because you haven't really studied it.
I have no desire to study a book inspired by a man whom took a child bride, thanks. "Through the Looking Glass" has the same variety of appeal to me on that matter.
are you delusional?
who took a child as his bride?
it's proved that she was 17 or more when she married him.
also her father asked Muhammad to marry her.
and that marriage was not considered wrong where it happened.
though if you want to deny proof, you'd be just like others who've done so before you, and have died in disbelief.

and you don't accept the proofs about creation of these so called groups by US. and the Aid US' allies are providing to these groups. and the fact that US is Ok with it.
The person in question self radicalized. The Boston bombers self radicalized. The San Diego shooters self radicalized. They received no help aside from the twisted up-bringing Islam gave them.
well, if you haven't read Quran and don't know Islam, your claims about his twisted Islamic up-bringing is inaccurate and worthless at best.
talking about things you don't know or don't care to know, is a sign of mindlessness.

angels are immortal, Satan and his army are jinn, which just like human, can choose between right and wrong.
This is really just highlighting why religion needs to have evidence behind it.
what kind of evidence you're looking for? if you don't accept logic, you won't accept miracles.
... you realize that was the initial postings I put forth, and thus far you have done nothing to address those. Miracles by their nature defy logic, I don't see how accepting one means I should accept the other.
I realize that understanding something, and accepting it, are two different things.

there are jinns which are good, and those which are bad.
or why do you think demons should have solid material bodies?
I think the better question is why shouldn't they. Throughout the Bible there are references to both angels and demons, and each time, they have solid forms.
I give you an example. sound. does it have a solid physical body? sound fades, yet do you see sound's skeleton?
I give you an example: wrestling with a person. Much like an angel did. That requires a physical body. And I will give you another example: having sex with a person. Much like demons did, according (both examples) to the Bible.
again. use Quran. bible is changed. there are too many contradictions in it. they say Jesus is God. and that he turned water into wine, and Jacob wrestled with God (or was it an angle?)
Again, no thank you. I have qualms about relators of ultimate morality taking child brides.
no pressure. be who you are and take responsibility for your actions and beliefs.

also, angels or demons can manifest themselves into material bodies. it's just that they aren't allowed to do so, unless with an order from God or with the power of people like prophets.
So when the Biblical flood occurred we should find said bodies. Or said material bodies should have left some variety of genetic trace in graves we found.
Biblical Flood? you mean Noah's flood?
I wonder how you got that from my explanation.
as I said, they can only manifest by order of God or by power of someone like a prophet (which that also would be by order of God).
how did you get the claim that there were in human form in the time of Flood?
and manifesting in the form of human, doesn't make them human.
it's just a change in form, and they can return to their original form.
The what was the point of flooding the Earth? ;)
Noah was among his people for a very long time. he guided them to the right path. taught them good conducts. yet they didn't care to follow him. flooding the earth was like other divine punishments that befell those people.
according to Quran:
Noah said: "My Lord, do not leave out of these unbelievers even a single dweller on earth,
for certainly if You should leave them (alive), they will mislead Your servants, and will beget none but sinners and utter unbelievers.

also, scientific discoveries show that there might be more than 4 dimension in our universe.
take a look at dark matter. it exists, and we can measure it's gravity, but we cant detect it.
I was not aware that measuring something was exclusive of detecting it.
my point was that there are things that have an effect, but we have no tool to find them.
Then how did we measure it? You want me to look at a holy book that you claim has no contradictions, but state we have measured something that we have no tool to find.
again, I go back to the dark matter example. we know it exists, because of Gravity, but we can't detect what's causing that gravity, hence we call it dark matter. since only matter can have gravity ( at least as far as I know).
So then we CAN detect it.
we can detect gravity. we can't detect dark matter.
gravity is a sign of its existence.

and if by state we have measured something that we have no tool to find
No, Dark Matter.

you mean God, then I tell you that we haven't measured God! it's impossible.
We know it's exists, because of the signs that point to it.
measuring something and knowing it's existence are two different things.
signs point to him, but we can't measure God.
we can know his attributes, but we can't know about his essence.

Such as? That was the point of this thread, after all.

simply not being able to find something, doesn't automatically reject it.
Then how did we measure it?
measure what?
Dark matter.

if you can logically prove something, and you also can find signs that point out to it's existence, then you know that it exist.

and why would space aliens give prophet a book that would guide people to the right path?
Why would God? (bear in mind, I am going to give that reason you give for God to the space aliens)
God created us. that's why. he doesn't create without a reason. all he creates have a goal. and he'd guide us to our goal, because we're creatures who can choose.

what's in it for them?