Total Posts:83|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Religious conversation started

vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/18/2010 10:48:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 6:14:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sorry, the guy's just an a$$hole. I don't mind a legit objection, but he's just angry and mean. I couldn't get by the first minute and a half of listening to someone like that. If he's a representative of what an atheist society will be like, i will opt for a theocracy; thank God there are more than just these two choices.
MarquisX
Posts: 925
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 6:29:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I watch the whole thing. It was absolutely pathetic and stupid. And by his rules, his reasoning for the way the world works why shouldn't I murder 20 people? Who will stop me?
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 7:29:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/18/2010 10:48:02 PM, vbaculum wrote:


No need to make fun of the atheists ¬.¬
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 7:30:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 7:29:55 AM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 12/18/2010 10:48:02 PM, vbaculum wrote:


No need to make fun of the atheists ¬.¬

I did mean ATHEISTS
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 8:07:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Pat Condell is a pretty angry guy, and probably represents a lot of the thoughts of the New Atheist movement in his outright confrontation with religion. But in amongst the barb, I think one thing that he said was pretty true - that religion does get this unearned respect from society, even when it completely contradicts what most people would regard as acceptable discourse (even by many of the faithful themselves). To take a couple of examples, when the Pope calls homosexuality "insidious to society", the response is something like, "well, that's his faith." When the majority of people on a British topical news programme (Question Time) BLAME Salman Rushdie or certain cartoonists for insulting Islam, and excuse death threats, murder, violence, vandalism and other things as understandable or somehow reasonable. When tax-payer funded schools in Britain teach creationism or religions get tax breaks, or when Richard Dawkins writes a book (a book which I totally disagree with on many of his points) and gets criticised mainly for not WHAT he said, but the WAY he said it ("Dawkins' shrill tone", etc), or the very fact that he said it, then you begin to think, maybe religions of all sort get far too much respect. Religion should get as much respect as any other point of view - no more no less.

As for Condell's criticism of "close minded" religious people, that's just a huge generalisation on his part, and one unfounded and unfair.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 4:35:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 6:14:25 AM, innomen wrote:
Sorry, the guy's just an a$$hole. I don't mind a legit objection, but he's just angry and mean.

Actually, it was a legit objection, you just couldn't get past his arrogant tone. And it wasn't angry and mean, he was quite calm and was just being brutally honest.

Here's some of the outstanding "legit objections" that I found noteworthy and perhaps you ought to take note of as well:

"Faith is fear dressed up as virtue."

"Faith doesn't transcend reason at all. Faith sidesteps reason, it runs away from reason because reason threatens it's cozy bubble of delusion, so faith disqualifies reason. ... If you're a believer your faith allows you to adopt a set of beliefs that make absolutely no sense, knowing that you won't be measured by whether they make sense, but by the level of piety that you exhibit in believing them. In other words your willingness to deny reality becomes a measure of your virtue. But what a price you've paid for this virtue.

You've been persuaded that believing in the impossible is your only hope. How did that happen? And that your purpose is to worship something beyond your understanding defined by and only accessible through self-appointed intermediaries.

Your thoughts, your words, and your identity are no longer solely yours to decide but are subject to the approval of those who have assumed authority over you through your faith. The people who told you that you are born with something wrong with you. Come on, in a state of sin no less. A condition that can only be cured by complete submission and obedience to them, surprise surprise, from the moment you're born until the moment you die. And if all this doesn't exactly flatter your ego, and why should it, don't worry, we can give it a special name to make you feel better and persuade you that you still got some dignity.

Let's call it "faith!" And let's deem it to be the highest and most noble and profound of all virtues, and let's pretend that it comes from within when we all know that nothing about your religion is allowed to come from within because that would give you strength and freedom, the two things your religion wants as far away from you as possible.


Faith is the grip that clergy have over you. It's the invisible rope around your neck that pulls you along the road they want you to travel for their benefit, not yours. It's a dead-end word. It's a word of bondage. It's a word that lets you believe what you've been told to believe without feeling that you've been told what to believe, but you have and you can stop pretending any time you like.

It's not a virtue, that's the last thing it is. It's an abdication from reality. It's a dumb act of self-hypnosis. It's a cowardly copout. It's gullibility with a halo. ... So I really don't understand exactly what it is that I am supposed to respect. It seems to me that I'd need to be some sort of moral contortionist."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 4:52:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 4:35:09 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Let's call it "faith!" And let's deem it to be the highest and most noble and profound of all virtues, and let's pretend that it comes from within when we all know that nothing about your religion is allowed to come from within because that would give you strength and freedom, the two things your religion wants as far away from you as possible.


I listened to whole thing and it wasn't anything new or challenging to me but I just have to point this out:

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

-- 1 Corinthians 13:13

Lulz.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 5:18:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 4:52:40 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/19/2010 4:35:09 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Let's call it "faith!" And let's deem it to be the highest and most noble and profound of all virtues, and let's pretend that it comes from within when we all know that nothing about your religion is allowed to come from within because that would give you strength and freedom, the two things your religion wants as far away from you as possible.


I listened to whole thing and it wasn't anything new or challenging to me but I just have to point this out:

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

-- 1 Corinthians 13:13

Lulz.

That's just being nitpicky. The point is still that faith is believed to be one of the highest and most noble virtues.

"Without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to him, for he who comes to God must believe that he exists, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)

"These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (1 Peter 1:7)

"We live by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians 5:7)
^^^
This one is particularly disturbing.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8)

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future. By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones. By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel. By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days. By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient. And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised." (Hebrews 11:1-39)

I seriously have to question the sincerity of the passage that claims love is the greatest of all. Just look at the above verses, faith gets an entire essay about how great it is.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 5:38:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:18:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

That's just being nitpicky. The point is still that faith is believed to be one of the highest and most noble virtues.


No, that wasn't the point and you know it.

Faith Quotes...
I seriously have to question the sincerity of the passage that claims love is the greatest of all. Just look at the above verses, faith gets an entire essay about how great it is.

You'd only have the "seriously question" the sincerity of the passage if you hadn't read the entire bible.

Note in the preceding passages of the ones I listed love is also given a treatise.

"1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. "

--1 Corinthians 13

"28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question."

-- Matthew 22
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 6:44:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:38:33 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/19/2010 5:18:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

That's just being nitpicky. The point is still that faith is believed to be one of the highest and most noble virtues.


No, that wasn't the point and you know it.

Are you serious? That is such a trivial gripe! It is clear within the context that he was explaining that faith is seen as a great virtue rather than something to be looked down up (which he thinks it should). He doesn't care whether it's top virtue number 1 or number 2, he's just explaining that they tell believers that faith is such a great virtue to cover up something which is actually loathesome. That's quite clear. That little Bible quote does not at all refute the message he was trying to get across, it was just a minuscule technicality that doesn't affect his point.

Faith Quotes...
I seriously have to question the sincerity of the passage that claims love is the greatest of all. Just look at the above verses, faith gets an entire essay about how great it is.

You'd only have the "seriously question" the sincerity of the passage if you hadn't read the entire bible.

Note in the preceding passages of the ones I listed love is also given a treatise.

"1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. "

--1 Corinthians 13

I would have praised these verses above, that is until I saw the final verse below that revealed the kind of love that it refers to and which love is seen to be the greatest.

"28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question."

-- Matthew 22

"The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. ...Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

The first love that is referred to here is a love for God. To me, loving your master is not something I consider virtuous in the least, quite the contrary actually. Also, this love for God over-rides the love for your fellow human beings.
See here: ("He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37)) So you're not even supposed to love anyone fully, not even your loved ones.

The second love that is referred to, is a form of compulsory love of your neighbor as it is presented as a commandment.

Basically, you have to love God first and foremost, then love your fellow human beings, but with less love than God, and not only do you have to love your fellow man less, it is a compulsory love at that.

So really, nothing at all here that is worthy of praise or respect.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 7:50:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 6:44:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Are you serious? That is such a trivial gripe! It is clear within the context that he was explaining that faith is seen as a great virtue rather than something to be looked down up (which he thinks it should). He doesn't care whether it's top virtue number 1 or number 2, he's just explaining that they tell believers that faith is such a great virtue to cover up something which is actually loathesome. That's quite clear. That little Bible quote does not at all refute the message he was trying to get across, it was just a minuscule technicality that doesn't affect his point.

Um, no. His argument is that he despises faith because of it's supposed qualities and that religious believers make it their number one priority - i.e. it's supposed to be more important than any other virtue.

Also, it doesn't matter that you're not impressed with what kind of love the Bible espouses. Your point is a nice red herring, though. My point still refutes the argument you were trying to make about the supposed insincerity of the Corinthinan passage as it's clear that when read entirely the Bible prioritizes love as a virtue over anything else - including faith! You do remember your original claim, don't you? Here, let me remind you:

I seriously have to question the sincerity of the passage that claims love is the greatest of all. Just look at the above verses, faith gets an entire essay about how great it is.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 8:41:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I love Pat Condell. I subscribe to his channel and watch all his videos. He is an Anti-theist, so you can hardly lump all of his views into the Atheist box.
Haters: What you call "mean, angry, pathetic and stupid" I call "Funny, passionate, honest and brilliant".
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 8:42:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 7:50:15 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/19/2010 6:44:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Are you serious? That is such a trivial gripe! It is clear within the context that he was explaining that faith is seen as a great virtue rather than something to be looked down up (which he thinks it should). He doesn't care whether it's top virtue number 1 or number 2, he's just explaining that they tell believers that faith is such a great virtue to cover up something which is actually loathesome. That's quite clear. That little Bible quote does not at all refute the message he was trying to get across, it was just a minuscule technicality that doesn't affect his point.

Um, no. His argument is that he despises faith because of it's supposed qualities and that religious believers make it their number one priority - i.e. it's supposed to be more important than any other virtue.

Also, it doesn't matter that you're not impressed with what kind of love the Bible espouses. Your point is a nice red herring, though. My point still refutes the argument you were trying to make about the supposed insincerity of the Corinthinan passage as it's clear that when read entirely the Bible prioritizes love as a virtue over anything else - including faith! You do remember your original claim, don't you? Here, let me remind you:

I seriously have to question the sincerity of the passage that claims love is the greatest of all. Just look at the above verses, faith gets an entire essay about how great it is.


Stop owning everyone please. kthxbai.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 9:13:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 8:42:29 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 12/19/2010 7:50:15 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Stop owning everyone please. kthxbai.

I didn't get owned at all. Please explain how he owned me.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 9:21:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 9:13:25 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/19/2010 8:42:29 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 12/19/2010 7:50:15 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Stop owning everyone please. kthxbai.

I didn't get owned at all. Please explain how he owned me.

I suppose I used the term 'owned' a bit loosely. Soz. :(
Pooka does know the source material well enough to debunk most every argument I've ever seen thrown at him though.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 9:25:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 9:21:58 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 12/19/2010 9:13:25 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I didn't get owned at all. Please explain how he owned me.

I suppose I used the term 'owned' a bit loosely. Soz. :(
Pooka does know the source material well enough to debunk most every argument I've ever seen thrown at him though.

Well, I haven't been debunked. And there's more to winning an argument than simply "knowing source material."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2010 9:27:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 9:25:51 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/19/2010 9:21:58 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 12/19/2010 9:13:25 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I didn't get owned at all. Please explain how he owned me.

I suppose I used the term 'owned' a bit loosely. Soz. :(
Pooka does know the source material well enough to debunk most every argument I've ever seen thrown at him though.

Well, I haven't been debunked. And there's more to winning an argument than simply "knowing source material."

R U MAD?
You haven't even replied to his last response. Why not start proving how you haven't been debunked there?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
jharry
Posts: 4,984
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2010 12:30:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hahaha. That guy has some serious issues. His wife must have left him for a Theist.

PCP is 100% correct. This guy doesn't know what he is talking about. And he has a screwed up perception on faith to. He doesn't even know the Faith of Scriptures.

Does he really think faith in God being real is what we hold so highly? Not only is he out of aces and resulting to ignorant rants but he doesn't even know what he is ranting about. I assume that when people end up in these childish senseless attacks they have finally come to the conclusion there is noting to really say and they find themselves grasping at straws. Basic mentality of anti-Theist behavior. You can't change it or even build a substantiation argument against it, then throw feces at it until you have convinced yourself it is the cause of all evil in the world. My question. Does that really help you sleep at night. Or is it the booze,sluts and rugs that make your life bearable. If not these then does your false security of hiding behind every unfalsifiable argument help you cope with a wold that you know doesn't even know you there?

Faith isn't believing in God alone. Faith is believing IN God. Faith is being down to your last hundred bucks and giving it to someone that is in far worse shape then yourself. Faith is being hungry but not worried. Faith is your entire world crumbling around you but you stand in utter peace. If tat is what you want to disrespect then by all means have at it. I'm afraid that you are the one that is losing the respect.

Love is compulsory? Yeah. Jesus said you MUST be born again. The love I have for others isn't something I force as if I have a gun to my head. I can't speak for all Christians or Theists but I know what is real in my life. Yes there are times when you must force yourself to love some people, in the beginning anyway. But as you open your heart to His way you change from the inside out.

But it isn't a pretend love. That doesn't cut it unlike the OT. Jesus gave a parable on this. Goats and sheep. The goats acted just like the sheep but they were not his children. So no Jesus isn't forcing anyone to love their neighbor. If you do not then you are not going to be in His Kingdom. I think even Atheists (most of them excluding reasoning maybe) know there is a right and a wrong. Whether they make some evolutionary excuse for it or not they will still claim they can be a "good" person without God. So I think even most atheist believe in a "good" however they define it or make excuses for it. It doesn't matter if you act good, it only matters if you are good. Whether anyone is looking or not.

And then the accusations of not being able to love my parents and follow Jesus. That is a false definition or perception of love in this case. I can love my mother and not love her more then Christ. That is just a ignorant argument period.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2010 12:49:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 12:30:59 AM, jharry wrote:
Faith isn't believing in God alone. Faith is believing IN God. Faith is being down to your last hundred bucks and giving it to someone that is in far worse shape then yourself.

Only because it is in hope of a reward. If it is out of generosity, then it has nothing to do with faith, and any generous person without faith can commit the same act.

Faith is being hungry but not worried.

That's not faith. That's a result of faith, a faith in God that he will provide for you.

Faith is your entire world crumbling around you but you stand in utter peace.

Again, that's not faith. That's the result of faith because you have faith in a God who is watching over you and will grant you another life.

If tat is what you want to disrespect then by all means have at it. I'm afraid that you are the one that is losing the respect.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." -- Carl Sagan

"Faith is fear dressed up as virtue." -- Pat Condell

"Faith is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking." -- Bill Maher

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." -- Mark Twain

Love is compulsory? Yeah. Jesus said you MUST be born again.

What does that have to do with compulsory love? I fail to see the connection here.

The love I have for others isn't something I force as if I have a gun to my head.

I never claimed that. I said it's compulsory love because Jesus COMMANDED you to love your neighbor. Yes, commanded.

"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." (Matthew 22:31)

I think even Atheists (most of them excluding reasoning maybe) know there is a right and a wrong. Whether they make some evolutionary excuse for it or not they will still claim they can be a "good" person without God. So I think even most atheist believe in a "good" however they define it or make excuses for it. It doesn't matter if you act good, it only matters if you are good. Whether anyone is looking or not.

Ok, and...

And then the accusations of not being able to love my parents and follow Jesus. That is a false definition or perception of love in this case.
I can love my mother and not love her more then Christ. That is just a ignorant argument period.

I never said that. I said you must love your family less than you love God. I also said that you can't fully love your family. That is the commandment.

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37)

Don't you see? If it is possible to love your family more than God, but you are commanded not to, then you are not allowed to love your family fully because it's still possible love them more, but evil space daddy won't allow that.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
jharry
Posts: 4,984
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2010 1:06:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 12:49:38 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/20/2010 12:30:59 AM, jharry wrote:
Faith isn't believing in God alone. Faith is believing IN God. Faith is being down to your last hundred bucks and giving it to someone that is in far worse shape then yourself.

Only because it is in hope of a reward. If it is out of generosity, then it has nothing to do with faith, and any generous person without faith can commit the same act.

Please prove that.

Faith is being hungry but not worried.

That's not faith. That's a result of faith, a faith in God that he will provide for you.

Huh? That is what I said. Faith IN God. Faith that He will take care of it.

Faith is your entire world crumbling around you but you stand in utter peace.

Again, that's not faith. That's the result of faith because you have faith in a God who is watching over you and will grant you another life.

Why isn't that Faith? So what is this? Your definition against mine?
What it means to me and what it means to you?

If tat is what you want to disrespect then by all means have at it. I'm afraid that you are the one that is losing the respect.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." -- Carl Sagan

"Faith is fear dressed up as virtue." -- Pat Condell

"Faith is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking." -- Bill Maher

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." -- Mark Twain

Ok Reasoning. Instead of replying to what I said you post a bunch of quotes? LOL. Anyway. Like I said. If you want to disrespect Faith that is your choice. But at least you could actually reply to what I said.

Love is compulsory? Yeah. Jesus said you MUST be born again.

What does that have to do with compulsory love? I fail to see the connection here.

And you don't understand Scriptures. Born again is becoming something new. Before I had no love, now I do. Not forced. Born again, like a child.


The love I have for others isn't something I force as if I have a gun to my head.

I never claimed that. I said it's compulsory love because Jesus COMMANDED you to love your neighbor. Yes, commanded.

He commanded it yes, if you would like t follow Him you must love your neighbor. You can follow Him all you want but it will be nothing more then a clinging bell.


"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." (Matthew 22:31)

Yep. And you still have no clue about Scriptures, you can only give you personal interpretation of it. You do understand that is like me calling you a immoral thief, murder, rapist because you are an atheist right?

I think even Atheists (most of them excluding reasoning maybe) know there is a right and a wrong. Whether they make some evolutionary excuse for it or not they will still claim they can be a "good" person without God. So I think even most atheist believe in a "good" however they define it or make excuses for it. It doesn't matter if you act good, it only matters if you are good. Whether anyone is looking or not.

Ok, and...

Love.


And then the accusations of not being able to love my parents and follow Jesus. That is a false definition or perception of love in this case.
I can love my mother and not love her more then Christ. That is just a ignorant argument period.

I never said that. I said you must love your family less than you love God. I also said that you can't fully love your family. That is the commandment.

LOL. That is funny. So for me to be a Christian I can't love my family. Oh, I can't fully love my family. You have absolutely 0 understanding of Scripture. Actually that is even worse then what I thought you said. Your taking it out of context. I'm just not sure if you are doing it on purpose or you really don't understand. You do know that there were no Christians then. They were all Jews. If someone began to follow Jesus and there family resisted and wanted that person to remain a Jew then the new Christian had a choice. Remain a Jew for his/her family or follow Christ.

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37)

Don't you see? If it is possible to love your family more than God, but you are commanded not to, then you are not allowed to love your family fully because it's still possible love them more, but evil space daddy won't allow that.

I really hope you have something better then this. This is one of the worst arguments I have ever seen on here. Before you "disrespect" any more Christians you my want to find out what they actually believe.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
Posts: 4,984
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2010 1:59:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 9:27:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 12/19/2010 9:25:51 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/19/2010 9:21:58 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 12/19/2010 9:13:25 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I didn't get owned at all. Please explain how he owned me.

I suppose I used the term 'owned' a bit loosely. Soz. :(
Pooka does know the source material well enough to debunk most every argument I've ever seen thrown at him though.

Well, I haven't been debunked. And there's more to winning an argument than simply "knowing source material."

R U MAD?
You haven't even replied to his last response. Why not start proving how you haven't been debunked there?

LOL. For some reason I can see Geo (a mix between a buddhist monk and a reptilian-human) screaming at the screen "HE DIDN'T OWN ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' Eyes popping out. Head turning beet red. Veins popping of neck. Little drops of spittle spewing out hitting the screen. LMAO. Then storming out the room like a five year old slamming the door behind him. Thank you Geo. Thank you so much for that.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2010 5:28:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 7:50:15 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/19/2010 6:44:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Are you serious? That is such a trivial gripe! It is clear within the context that he was explaining that faith is seen as a great virtue rather than something to be looked down up (which he thinks it should). He doesn't care whether it's top virtue number 1 or number 2, he's just explaining that they tell believers that faith is such a great virtue to cover up something which is actually loathesome. That's quite clear. That little Bible quote does not at all refute the message he was trying to get across, it was just a minuscule technicality that doesn't affect his point.

Um, no. His argument is that he despises faith because of it's supposed qualities and that religious believers make it their number one priority - i.e. it's supposed to be more important than any other virtue.

Seriously, ever heard of hyperbole? Also, he even clarified his point at the end:

It's not a virtue, that's the last thing it is. - Pat Condell

So yes, his point is that it's not a virtue and that your religion will tell you it is a great virtue (in which he used hyperbole to make this point).

Also, it doesn't matter that you're not impressed with what kind of love the Bible espouses. Your point is a nice red herring, though.

I didn't know it was a crime to bring up a new argument!

My point still refutes the argument you were trying to make about the supposed insincerity of the Corinthinan passage as it's clear that when read entirely the Bible prioritizes love as a virtue over anything else - including faith! You do remember your original claim, don't you? Here, let me remind you:

The problem is that it is an unorthodox version of love, and as I pointed out, even a reprehensible version of love. It's very misleading to say that love is the highest virtue when it's actually talking about a redefined version or a very specific, limited version. When people think of "love" they think of love amongst their fellow human beings and especially their loved ones. They don't think of love as "half-way love for your family and neighbors, but full love for God."

Let's say there's a Nazi doctrine that says "love" is the highest virtue. And then someone asks, "well what kind of love do you mean?" And they say, "the love for Hitler. This form of love is the highest virtue." Well, that's really saying "love" is the highest virtue, but rather, love for Hitler is the highest virtue. Two completely different things.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2010 8:58:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
May I remind you that you are generalizing what "Faith" is. I don't blame you too much, but the religions are different, and when people think that "Faith" in Islam has anything to do with "believing without knowing evidence," they are completely wrong. "Faith" in Islam is "iman" and means "belief." When we Muslims ask Allah for the increase of Faith, we say, "God, strengthen the imaan in our hearts" which means strengthen our belief, hereby in God and His revelation. Iman also includes the belief in what Islam calls "the World of the Unseen," which makes us Muslims believers in the Unseen, meaning God, His Angels, etc. It is not "believers in the unprovable."

Faith = imaan = belief.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2010 1:19:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 8:58:58 AM, Mirza wrote:
May I remind you that you are generalizing what "Faith" is. I don't blame you too much, but the religions are different, and when people think that "Faith" in Islam has anything to do with "believing without knowing evidence," they are completely wrong. "Faith" in Islam is "iman" and means "belief." When we Muslims ask Allah for the increase of Faith, we say, "God, strengthen the imaan in our hearts" which means strengthen our belief, hereby in God and His revelation. Iman also includes the belief in what Islam calls "the World of the Unseen," which makes us Muslims believers in the Unseen, meaning God, His Angels, etc. It is not "believers in the unprovable."

Faith = imaan = belief.

May i remind you that there is something called the english standard for definitions. If you want to tip-toe around claiming that faith is the exact same as belief, and therefore your belief in God is the same as your belief that the sun exists, well, you may be able to sell that in islamistan, where the language spoken is Arabic, but here, we have a language called "Ingleesh", where a definition for a word, is already determined beforehand. Sorry for that.

Faith =/= belief
MarquisX
Posts: 925
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2010 8:28:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The part I didn't like was his lack of respect. If he said " religions don't deserve any more respect than anything else" I would shake his hand and agree with him. He didn't. He basically said "if you are religious, you are scum" I have never seen anyone so hateful. You know, besides Stalin and Hitler
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2010 8:42:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 5:28:47 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Seriously, ever heard of hyperbole? Also, he even clarified his point at the end:


Of course I've heard of it. I was just imitating you for a bit where you insist on feigning ignorance of what hyperbole is whenever certain biblical passages come up. :P

It's not a virtue, that's the last thing it is. - Pat Condell

So yes, his point is that it's not a virtue and that your religion will tell you it is a great virtue (in which he used hyperbole to make this point).

His point is that it's not a virtue yet religious people think it is the greatest virtue.

I didn't know it was a crime to bring up a new argument!

No, it isn't, but it should be a crime to dodge my argument the way you did. You very clearly tried to make the argument that the Bible emphasizes faith over love: "the love passage sounds insincere - just look at all the faith passages!!!!1111"

The problem is that it is an unorthodox version of love, and as I pointed out, even a reprehensible version of love. It's very misleading to say that love is the highest virtue when it's actually talking about a redefined version or a very specific, limited version. When people think of "love" they think of love amongst their fellow human beings and especially their loved ones. They don't think of love as "half-way love for your family and :neighbors, but full love for God."


Who are these "people" you are talking about? Non-Christians? Word?! Non Christians don't think that they should love God more than others? Ya don't say... This may come as a surprise to you but different philosophies hold different conceptions of ideas. Obviously a non-theistic philosophy isn't going have God in the picture when it comes to love because it holds that God doesn't exist or is irrelevant.

What you're doing is implicitly assuming a conception of love that Christians don't hold to argue in order to argue that the Christians conception of love is somehow faulty. What's the name for that fallacy? Begging the question.

Let's say there's a Nazi doctrine that says "love" is the highest virtue. And then someone asks, "well what kind of love do you mean?" And they say, "the love for Hitler. This form of love is the highest virtue." Well, that's really saying "love" is the highest virtue, but rather, love for Hitler is the highest virtue. Two completely different things.

....*sigh*
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2010 8:42:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 1:19:26 PM, tkubok wrote:
May i remind you that there is something called the english standard for definitions.
And may I also remind you that there are various definitions of one term.

If you want to tip-toe around claiming that faith is the exact same as belief, and therefore your belief in God is the same as your belief that the sun exists, well, you may be able to sell that in islamistan,
I also am able to "sell" that anywhere else where a word can be used different ways. The English language is not defined by you, thank you very much.

where the language spoken is Arabic, but here, we have a language called "Ingleesh", where a definition for a word, is already determined beforehand. Sorry for that.
You should be sorry for such a pathetic explanation, not because I say that Faith = belief. The word "Faith" is as flexible as most other words, meaning it can be defined in different ways according to different contexts.

Faith =/= belief
Tell me that once you master the English language, its historical development, the various forms around the world (which are in dozens), and you can come back and have a word. Until then, I will use your own definition of the word;

I have Faith in your ability not to start such an idiotic conversation with me again. Au revior.