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Why is your world better?

MarquisX
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12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not saying no one should voice their opinions. I'm not saying no one should defend their beliefs. But for the life of me, I can't see why we must attack each other. Don't give me any "no ones attacking anyone" b.s. I want to ask anti-thesis though. What makes your world better? A world without religion. That has to be the most depressing thing I can think of. If there is no afterlife, why live a honest life? Why be "good"? We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing. Why look for a soulmate? One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right? Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can? Why not take what I want? These aren't mocking questions. I really want to know.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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12/19/2010 9:29:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I'm not saying no one should voice their opinions. I'm not saying no one should defend their beliefs. But for the life of me, I can't see why we must attack each other. Don't give me any "no ones attacking anyone" b.s. I want to ask anti-thesis though. What makes your world better? A world without religion. That has to be the most depressing thing I can think of. If there is no afterlife, why live a honest life? Why be "good"? We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing. Why look for a soulmate? One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right? Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can? Why not take what I want? These aren't mocking questions. I really want to know.

Spirituality and religion are not the same thing. I can be very spiritual, enjoy living a great life, and have pride in everything I've accomplished, without feeling like I have to answer to someone when I die. You ask, "Why be good?" If the only reason you are 'good' is to buy yourself a seat in the afterlife, then you are fooling nobody but yourself. Just remember, integrity is doing the right thing, regardless of who is looking. If you are not a man of integrity, you have no worth, so what is better? To live a life of true worth and meaning, or pretend to live a life of worth and meaning, with the chance that something else 'might' be waiting for you? As far as looking for soulmates? I think that concept is a little misguided, but still a nice idea. Ball's back in your court...
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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12/19/2010 10:07:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I'm not saying no one should voice their opinions. I'm not saying no one should defend their beliefs. But for the life of me, I can't see why we must attack each other. Don't give me any "no ones attacking anyone" b.s. I want to ask anti-thesis though. What makes your world better? A world without religion. That has to be the most depressing thing I can think of. If there is no afterlife, why live a honest life? Why be "good"? We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing. Why look for a soulmate? One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right? Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can? Why not take what I want? These aren't mocking questions. I really want to know.

Well said gavin.ogden.

Assume MarquisX that you were no longer able to believe the claims of religion. You simply could not believe them because they are illogical so you are forced into atheism (so to speak). Now assume you started sleeping around as much as you can. You would be putting yourself at a higher risk of STD. If you're like most man you will eventually become attached emotionally to at least one of your partners. You will feel guilty for sleeping around so much. If that doesn't stop your promiscuity, your girlfriend will be more than willing to do her part to make you feel bad and will threaten to leave you. If you are like any other normal man you will eventually succumb to all this. You will eventually get married, doubling the burden of infidelity on your conscience.

Our take theft. You could become a thief but this too will likely weigh on your conscience. You will be anxious that you will eventually be caught. You will feel like you are working against society when you are likely to want to work with it.

These are all powerful incentives to live good and they don't require that you believe anything on insufficient evidence.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Mason0612
Posts: 160
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12/19/2010 12:43:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I'm not saying no one should voice their opinions. I'm not saying no one should defend their beliefs. But for the life of me, I can't see why we must attack each other. Don't give me any "no ones attacking anyone" b.s. I want to ask anti-thesis though. What makes your world better? A world without religion. That has to be the most depressing thing I can think of. If there is no afterlife, why live a honest life? Why be "good"? We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing. Why look for a soulmate? One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right? Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can? Why not take what I want? These aren't mocking questions. I really want to know.

If there is no afterlife, why live a honest life? Why be "good"?

Answer: No afterlife makes this life more valuable. If an athlete or sports team won all their games every singe year of their life no matter who they played or what they did, then the meaning of the game, winning, and practice would be diminished. If someone had unlimited money, working hard, setting goals, creating boundaries and limits, and striving for more would all be meaningless. If someone had unlimited happiness no matter what the circumstance, then they wouldn't truly understand happiness. As far as we know right now, we all only have one life. The fact that any of us are even alive is something to be thankful for. Think of all the different events that had to happen to have you be born. All of your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, great great grandparents, etc had to meet at a specific time, and conceive you at a specific time in order for you to be here. In my opinion, that makes life something to be even more proud and thankful of. Now back to your quetion of why to live an honest life. Family, friends, goals, desires, etc drives us all. In order for anyone to get a good feeling out of life or to feel accomplished, we all have to abide by basic rules in order to co-exist in harmony. If everyone went around lying all the time, then it would inhibit everyone else's personal abilities to live peacefully. There doesn't have to be an afterlife to live honestly in this one. We all try and do good onto others because it is understood that none of us want bad things to happen, so in order to achieve goodness, we all need to put out goodness though our actions. Basic karma.

We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing. Why look for a soulmate? One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right? Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can? Why not take what I want?

Answer:

It will only be worth nothing if that is what you make of it. For me personally, I enjoy having fun, being with family, helping family, helping people who are struggling to find happiness in life, achieving goals, hanging with friends, etc
These are things that give my life and many peoples life meaning. If you take a look at what you're greatful for, then you will see why those things are meaningful.

Hope that helped
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/19/2010 3:29:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I'm not saying no one should voice their opinions. I'm not saying no one should defend their beliefs. But for the life of me, I can't see why we must attack each other. Don't give me any "no ones attacking anyone" b.s. I want to ask anti-thesis though. What makes your world better? A world without religion. That has to be the most depressing thing I can think of. If there is no afterlife,
why live a honest life?
if you care to

Why be "good"?
because "good" is what you would have done.

We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing.
not if you enjoyed it.

Why look for a soulmate?
to enjoy life with

One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right?
not if you enjoyed it.

Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can?
Various reasons

Why not take what I want?
If doing so would make you unhappy.

These aren't mocking questions. I really want to know.
yep.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/19/2010 3:35:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What makes your world better?

Religious delusions can get in the way of pursuing what you would.. and being happy/content.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/19/2010 3:42:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I'm not saying no one should voice their opinions. I'm not saying no one should defend their beliefs. But for the life of me, I can't see why we must attack each other.

It's called "debating."

Don't give me any "no ones attacking anyone" b.s. I want to ask anti-thesis though. What makes your world better?

I don't have a world. I live in the same world as everybody else.

A world without religion.

I don't wish for a different world in which there is no religion. I prefer the world I live in, in which religion is a worthy adversary.

That has to be the most depressing thing I can think of.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." --Carl Sagan


If there is no afterlife, why live a honest life? Why be "good"?

For our own sake in the present world as it is.

We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing.

Things that are finite don't have value? So when you get on a rollercoaster, you get off and say, "that was a waste, it was all for nothing because it ended." No, see it did have value even if the ride didn't last forever. In fact, that's what makes rollercoasters fun is because they are a new and thrilling experience that you normally wouldn't do (a finite activity). If you were on the ride forever, then it really would lose meaning and would take the fun out of it.

Or take a flower for example. Are flowers not beautiful when they are bloomed, simply because they die after a certain period of time? NO. Flowers are still beautiful while they're alive.

Why look for a soulmate?

Because it benefits us in THIS LIFE.

One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right?

False. The fact that you get only one life is what makes your life that much more valuable and all the more reason to cherish this one and only life!

If life were something of an abundance, it wouldn't be as valuable, but if life were rare, it would be more valuable. Just like diamonds. They are valuable because they're rare, and things that are everywhere, like dirt, are worth nothing.

See, if you had an eternal life, all the things that you find fun and exhilarating would eventually get boring after the 5,000,000,000,000,000 time that you did it.

Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can? Why not take what I want?

If it makes this life better for you, go for it.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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12/19/2010 3:44:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:

What makes your world better? A world without religion. That has to be the most depressing thing I can think of.

Since I've never been 'religious', I can't truly say that my world is 'better'. However, since I find that atheism is the most logical stance on religion, then that does make me happy.

If there is no afterlife, why live a honest life?

Is an afterlife the only thing that keeps you from hurting others?

Why be "good"?

I have no idea. I don't even know what you mean by 'good' since that is so subjective.

We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing.

Yup. There's no inherent value or meaning. And we live to die while busying ourselves with the concept of accomplishment.

Why look for a soulmate?

Most people like that idea of companionship since humans are not solitary creatures.

One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right?

That depends.

Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can?

You could even with a religion. I didn't know that Christianity is what kept you awake...

Why not take what I want?

I see no reason why not. Unless it's at the expense of others which at that point, I'm sure you'd feel guilty.

These aren't mocking questions. I really want to know.

There you go.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
tigg13
Posts: 302
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12/19/2010 4:45:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I'm not saying no one should voice their opinions. I'm not saying no one should defend their beliefs. But for the life of me, I can't see why we must attack each other.

Interesting. You make an appeal for peaceful tolerance and understanding and then you challenge "anti-theists" to defend their world view as if it were invalid. For someone who is asking for peace, you sure go about it in a weird way.

Don't give me any "no ones attacking anyone" b.s. I want to ask anti-thesis though. What makes your world better? A world without religion. That has to be the most depressing thing I can think of.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you that a world where an all-powerful, all-loving being can make everything turn out right just by willing it to be so would be much better than this one. It would also be great if Santa was real. But what makes you think any of this is so? We don't deny the existence of God because it makes us feel good - we deny it because He doesn't exist. (Or, at east, we've seen no good reason to accept that He does.)

If there is no afterlife, why live a honest life? Why be "good"? We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing.:

Why be good if there is an afterlife? What's the point in making any kind of an effort in this temporary illusion of existence when this will all be forgiven, erased and forgotten after we die. And when you say this life is worth nothing, what do you mean? I mean, worth nothing to who? My life is worth something to me. It's also worth something to my wife and my family and friends. Why isn't that enough for you?

Why look for a soulmate? One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right? Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can? Why not take what I want?

What guarantees do you have that any mate that you have in this life will still be with you in the next? Don't we all have a free will and, thus, the freedom to chose a different path? And again, worth nothing to who? My wife is worth everything to me and knowing that it won't last forever makes me treasure every moment with her all the more. Now tell me something, what is your love worth to you? Would you trade paradise for it? Or would you sacrifice your love to save yourself a place in heaven?

These aren't mocking questions. I really want to know.:

Neither are mine.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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12/20/2010 12:35:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 3:35:50 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
What makes your world better?

Religious delusions can get in the way of pursuing what you would.. and being happy/content.

Aint that kinda subjective?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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12/20/2010 12:37:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I'm not saying no one should voice their opinions. I'm not saying no one should defend their beliefs. But for the life of me, I can't see why we must attack each other. Don't give me any "no ones attacking anyone" b.s. I want to ask anti-thesis though. What makes your world better?

I have asked that very same question. I'm still waiting on an answer.

I've heard freedom.

Happiness.

Blah blah blah.

I'm still waiting on one thing that isn't subjective.

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

The world may never find out.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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12/20/2010 1:09:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 12:37:21 AM, jharry wrote:
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I'm not saying no one should voice their opinions. I'm not saying no one should defend their beliefs. But for the life of me, I can't see why we must attack each other. Don't give me any "no ones attacking anyone" b.s. I want to ask anti-thesis though. What makes your world better?

I have asked that very same question. I'm still waiting on an answer.

I've heard freedom.

Happiness.

Blah blah blah.

I'm still waiting on one thing that isn't subjective.

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

The world may never find out.

Okay, heres my response.

Atheist worldviews are superior because they are honest. The problem with religion is that having unquestionable dogmatic beliefs, especially if they are bad beliefs, leads to good people doing bad things, and thinking they are doing good things. With such a belief system, you are prevented from accepting or rejecting something if it goes against your unquestionable beiefs. And that, sorry to say, is the worst method of determining if your beliefs are true, or likely to be true. If you dont think that Honesty is a good thing, if you dont think that being able to change your beliefs based on the evidence and what is actually true, if you dont think that having the most possible true beliefs, and chucking out the least possible true beliefs is a good thing, then be a theist, thats your prerogative.

I on the other hand, think that beliefs matter. And id rather have as many true beliefs, and as few false beliefs as possible.

If people can be atheists, and still be good, hard working, honest, nice people, then why BOTHER being a theist with all that extra baggage?
tkubok
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12/20/2010 1:14:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 12:35:14 AM, jharry wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:35:50 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
What makes your world better?

Religious delusions can get in the way of pursuing what you would.. and being happy/content.

Aint that kinda subjective?

Sure! If you believe that pain and suffering is a good thing, that more pain and more sufferinlead to happiness and content because you get to appreciate the time you have when there is no pain or suffering, then by all means, go flog yourself with a whipe and put your hand on the burning stove. It defiately is subjective. Just like how its subjective whether or not Rape is a Good thing(Hey, it makes the rapist feel REALLY good! And it causes pain and suffering to the victim! Its a win win!)

Unfortunately, weve been able to determine which is better, because weve set up a goal. And one of those goals is to prevent the suffering and pain of others. And based on that goal, no, the subjective aspect dissapears.

As i said before, if your goal is to have whatever beliefs make you feel good, then go ahead, be a theist. But my goal is to have as many true beliefs, and as few false beliefs as possible. So thats why im an atheist, and thats why an atheist worldview, in my position, is superior.
SuperRobotWars
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12/20/2010 1:23:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Boo! Just search for the secret of immortality through science it can fulfill most of your desires and best part you don't have to wait for death you can simply pass it by . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
laleona89
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12/20/2010 1:32:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I'm not saying no one should voice their opinions. I'm not saying no one should defend their beliefs. But for the life of me, I can't see why we must attack each other. Don't give me any "no ones attacking anyone" b.s. I want to ask anti-thesis though. What makes your world better? A world without religion. That has to be the most depressing thing I can think of. If there is no afterlife, why live a honest life? Why be "good"? We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing. Why look for a soulmate? One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right? Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can? Why not take what I want? These aren't mocking questions. I really want to know.

All you mentioned, it is worth for something because maybe for you it will end being nothing because you are dead, but for the people alive that got to know you, it could make a diference. For example if you ever helped a homeless person or a sick person it will impact them and there familiy maybe for some generations. Also you family may remember you if your dead.
gavin.ogden
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12/20/2010 2:29:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 2:24:19 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
What makes your world better?


God makes my world better, certainly not religion !

Could you elaborate? Sounds similar to what I was saying, but I'm not sure.
tkubok
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12/20/2010 5:17:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 2:24:19 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:
What makes your world better?


God makes my world better, certainly not religion !

What makes your world better?

Heroin makes my world better, certainly not religion!

Funny, how those two sentences have so much in common.
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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12/20/2010 8:33:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 1:14:25 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 12/20/2010 12:35:14 AM, jharry wrote:
At 12/19/2010 3:35:50 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
What makes your world better?

Religious delusions can get in the way of pursuing what you would.. and being happy/content.

Aint that kinda subjective?

Sure! If you believe that pain and suffering is a good thing, that more pain and more sufferinlead to happiness and content because you get to appreciate the time you have when there is no pain or suffering, then by all means, go flog yourself with a whipe and put your hand on the burning stove. It defiately is subjective. Just like how its subjective whether or not Rape is a Good thing(Hey, it makes the rapist feel REALLY good! And it causes pain and suffering to the victim! Its a win win!)

Unfortunately, weve been able to determine which is better, because weve set up a goal. And one of those goals is to prevent the suffering and pain of others. And based on that goal, no, the subjective aspect dissapears.

As i said before, if your goal is to have whatever beliefs make you feel good, then go ahead, be a theist. But my goal is to have as many true beliefs, and as few false beliefs as possible. So thats why im an atheist, and thats why an atheist worldview, in my position, is superior.
What!?!? Answer my debate challenge.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
jharry
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12/20/2010 10:35:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 1:09:15 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 12/20/2010 12:37:21 AM, jharry wrote:

LOL. Your back. Long time no see. Hey, I hope you haven't forgotten about our conversation on this in another thread. I would love to finish it when you get a chance. Thanks.
Okay, heres my response.

Atheist worldviews are superior because they are honest.

Please give some examples of this honestly and how it effects the individual and his/her life. . Thanks.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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12/20/2010 10:53:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 1:14:25 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 12/20/2010 12:35:14 AM, jharry wrote:

Sure! If you believe that pain and suffering is a good thing, that more pain and more sufferinlead to happiness and content because you get to appreciate the time you have when there is no pain or suffering, then by all means,

Pain and suffering. Seems to be the "beef" of your reply. I will discuss it at bottom of post.

go flog yourself with a whipe and put your hand on the burning stove. It defiately is subjective.

Lol I think you have been watching to many movies. Or talking to GEO to much in your spare time.

Just like how its subjective whether or not Rape is a Good thing(Hey, it makes the rapist feel REALLY good! And it causes pain and suffering to the victim! Its a win win!)

I hope your not generalizing all religion into one religion or cherry picking what you want from certain religions. That would be dishonest. If we allowed this type of cheap attack I could bring up Stalin and the pain and suffering his worldview caused. But I don't intend to go there, I hoped you wouldn't either.

Unfortunately, weve been able to determine which is better, because weve set up a goal. And one of those goals is to prevent the suffering and pain of others. And based on that goal, no, the subjective aspect dissapears.

You seemed to touch on the statements that your worldview (Atheism) relieves pain and suffering one yourself and others. Where is the cut off between your P/S (pain and suffering) and another? Let's take one "sin" that I'm not allowed to do under my Faith. Adultery. Under my worldview adultery is harmful to all involved. My children, my wife and myself. And we can't forget the mistress. Let's assume an individual has a heavy load (no pun intended) or desire to have sex with other people besides his/her spouse. Let's say that desire is daunting and this persons has to fight him/herself to bring their lusts into submission. For some this could be a heavy toll. In my worldview this "suffering" not only relieves the pain and suffering of my family and others it also teaches the individual willpower and strength to resist and defeat not only this negative act but also other negative actions such as alcohol and drug abuse. THIS is what my Faith is about and how it results from my worldview.

Now, please address this situation in your worldview so I can openly and objectively compare the two side by side.

Thanks.

As I said before, if your goal is to have whatever beliefs make you feel good, then go ahead, be a theist. But my goal is to have as many true beliefs, and as few false beliefs as possible. So thats why im an atheist, and thats why an atheist worldview, in my position, is superior.

I think this is better positioned in your first post. Maybe we should drop this last part and leave that in the other one?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
tkubok
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12/21/2010 12:43:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 10:35:54 PM, jharry wrote:
At 12/20/2010 1:09:15 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 12/20/2010 12:37:21 AM, jharry wrote:

LOL. Your back. Long time no see. Hey, I hope you haven't forgotten about our conversation on this in another thread. I would love to finish it when you get a chance. Thanks.

I remember getting a message from you that said that we should stop, so i did.... In any case, it was one of the most busiest times in my life, so i was happy to comply....
Okay, heres my response.

Atheist worldviews are superior because they are honest.

Please give some examples of this honestly and how it effects the individual and his/her life. . Thanks.

The ability to admit you were wrong. Thats an example of honesty that surpasses the Religious, concerning their beliefs, if that specific belief is shattered. And under the veil of "Faith", do they still continue to believe. Its the "even if you disprove all of my arguments and reasons for believing, i will still believe, because i have faith". Sorry, but that is dishonest.
tkubok
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12/21/2010 1:06:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/20/2010 10:53:31 PM, jharry wrote:
Pain and suffering. Seems to be the "beef" of your reply. I will discuss it at bottom of post.
Okay.
Lol I think you have been watching to many movies. Or talking to GEO to much in your spare time.

The late pope John paul, i believe, or maybe the pope before that, flogged himself and slept on a stone bed.

I hope your not generalizing all religion into one religion or cherry picking what you want from certain religions. That would be dishonest. If we allowed this type of cheap attack I could bring up Stalin and the pain and suffering his worldview caused. But I don't intend to go there, I hoped you wouldn't either.

That was an example, and no, when did i ever say that all(Or any) religions deem rape a good thing? What im talking about is the difference between setting a goal, and simply having subjective values. At first glance, it does seem subjective, but it isnt, because we have set specific goals, and there are only a few results or paths that led to that goal.

And BTW, go ahead, bring up stalin or pol-pot and how their worldviews caused pain and suffering. Cause my reply would be, so what? Those arent atheistic worldviews either.

You seemed to touch on the statements that your worldview (Atheism) relieves pain and suffering one yourself and others. Where is the cut off between your P/S (pain and suffering) and another? Let's take one "sin" that I'm not allowed to do under my Faith. Adultery. Under my worldview adultery is harmful to all involved. My children, my wife and myself. And we can't forget the mistress. Let's assume an individual has a heavy load (no pun intended) or desire to have sex with other people besides his/her spouse. Let's say that desire is daunting and this persons has to fight him/herself to bring their lusts into submission. For some this could be a heavy toll. In my worldview this "suffering" not only relieves the pain and suffering of my family and others it also teaches the individual willpower and strength to resist and defeat not only this negative act but also other negative actions such as alcohol and drug abuse. THIS is what my Faith is about and how it results from my worldview.

Now, please address this situation in your worldview so I can openly and objectively compare the two side by side.

Okay, glad to.

The problem with your example, or situation, is that the answer that you have brought, isnt exclusive to your worldview.

First of all, congrats, the bible has many examples of polygamy, i mean, seriously, how many wives did King David have? Furthermore, there are societies that allow polygamy, And then there are religions that allow polygamy, so that is one method of fixing that pain and suffering, and i dont think that there is anything inherently wrong with polygamy.

Secondly, its not like if a theistic or religious worldview, accepts or denies something, then the atheistic worldview must necessarily do the opposite of what the religious worldview has determined. The ONLY thing that is necessary to hold an atheistic worldview, is the disbelief of a God. There are many things that both the athistic and religious worldview would agree upon. Im sure we will both agree that indiscriminant murder of people is wrong. The more interesting and more pressing concerns pop up, when, for example, we talk about homosexuality. Most christians, would say that the act of homosexuality is wrong. The problem here, is that from an atheistic worldview, Homosexuaity is neither wrong, or acceptable, because an atheistic worldview doesnt comment on homosexuality at all. There is no Atheist bible. There is no Atheist decree of Dogma and Tenants. You are free to be convinced, and to believe whatever convinced you. There are some atheists who believe that homosexuality is good, and some that believe it is bad. And whether they be convinced by good, or bad reasons, all atheists would agree that they are STILL atheists.

Can the same be said of ANY other religion? If you stopped believing that Jesus is God, but still believed in Jesus and God, and called yourself a christian, would other christians chime in and say "Yeah, you are still a christian"? If you stopped believing that homosexuality, even the act of it, is wrong, would most christians agree with you that you are still a christian?

I think this is better positioned in your first post. Maybe we should drop this last part and leave that in the other one?

Sure.
tvellalott
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12/21/2010 8:21:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/19/2010 5:42:40 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I want to ask anti-thesis though.
What makes your world better?
That I have the freedom to think and do whatever I choose to.

A world without religion. That has to be the most depressing thing I can think of. If there is no afterlife, why live a honest life? Why be "good"? We are all going to die and everything we have ever accomplished is worth exactly.....nothing. Why look for a soulmate? One of us is going to die and it'll be worth nothing right? Why don't I just sleep around as much as I can? Why not take what I want? These aren't mocking questions. I really want to know.

You fail.
None of those things have anything to do with religion.
There is absolutely no correlation between Atheists and Criminals.
Which begs the question, those things you mentioned, like murdering, cheating, lying and stealing... are you saying you don't do those things because of religion?
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jharry
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12/21/2010 8:49:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/21/2010 12:43:45 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 12/20/2010 10:35:54 PM, jharry wrote:
At 12/20/2010 1:09:15 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 12/20/2010 12:37:21 AM, jharry wrote:

LOL. Your back. Long time no see. Hey, I hope you haven't forgotten about our conversation on this in another thread. I would love to finish it when you get a chance. Thanks.

I remember getting a message from you that said that we should stop, so i did.... In any case, it was one of the most busiest times in my life, so i was happy to comply....

Actually, no. I sent no such message. But anyway it doesn't matter. You were very busy, I hope you wouldn't put this site or my conversation above you personal life. Totally understandable.
Okay, heres my response.

Atheist worldviews are superior because they are honest.

Please give some examples of this honestly and how it effects the individual and his/her life. . Thanks.

The ability to admit you were wrong. Thats an example of honesty that surpasses the Religious, concerning their beliefs, if that specific belief is shattered. And under the veil of "Faith", do they still continue to believe. Its the "even if you disprove all of my arguments and reasons for believing, i will still believe, because i have faith". Sorry, but that is dishonest.

Actually you just called out every single person on earth. No one is immune to the problem of not wanting to admit when they are wrong. But, I asked how does it effect their life. You seemed to have skipped that part.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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12/21/2010 9:02:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/21/2010 1:06:22 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 12/20/2010 10:53:31 PM, jharry wrote:
Lol I think you have been watching to many movies. Or talking to GEO to much in your spare time.

The late pope John paul, i believe, or maybe the pope before that, flogged himself and slept on a stone bed.

Lol. You have been spending to much time with Geo. That was Saint John Vianney. And this is rare then and now in the Church. It is not recommend or even mentioned. But his does tie into what we are talking about. The lines we draw in regards to suffering for others.

What im talking about is the difference between setting a goal, and simply having subjective values. At first glance, it does seem subjective, but it isnt, because we have set specific goals, and there are only a few results or paths that led to that goal.

Yes. But what does this have to do with differing worldviews?

And BTW, go ahead, bring up stalin or pol-pot and how their worldviews caused pain and suffering. Cause my reply would be, so what? Those arent atheistic worldviews either.

Oh my friend, that is definitely a conversation we must have. But not now, I think we have our plate full and other conversations to continue in tow.


You seemed to touch on the statements that your worldview (Atheism) relieves pain and suffering one yourself and others. Where is the cut off between your P/S (pain and suffering) and another? Let's take one "sin" that I'm not allowed to do under my Faith. Adultery. Under my worldview adultery is harmful to all involved. My children, my wife and myself. And we can't forget the mistress. Let's assume an individual has a heavy load (no pun intended) or desire to have sex with other people besides his/her spouse. Let's say that desire is daunting and this persons has to fight him/herself to bring their lusts into submission. For some this could be a heavy toll. In my worldview this "suffering" not only relieves the pain and suffering of my family and others it also teaches the individual willpower and strength to resist and defeat not only this negative act but also other negative actions such as alcohol and drug abuse. THIS is what my Faith is about and how it results from my worldview.

Now, please address this situation in your worldview so I can openly and objectively compare the two side by side.

Okay, glad to.

The problem with your example, or situation, is that the answer that you have brought, isnt exclusive to your worldview.

I asked what YOUR world view was. Not atheism.

First of all, congrats, the bible has many examples of polygamy, i mean, seriously, how many wives did King David have? Furthermore, there are societies that allow polygamy, And then there are religions that allow polygamy, so that is one method of fixing that pain and suffering, and i dont think that there is anything inherently wrong with polygamy.

And how is that relevant to the question I asked?

Secondly, its not like if a theistic or religious worldview, accepts or denies something, then the atheistic worldview must necessarily do the opposite of what the religious worldview has determined. The ONLY thing that is necessary to hold an atheistic worldview, is the disbelief of a God. There are many things that both the athistic and religious worldview would agree upon. Im sure we will both agree that indiscriminant murder of people is wrong. The more interesting and more pressing concerns pop up, when, for example, we talk about homosexuality. Most christians, would say that the act of homosexuality is wrong. The problem here, is that from an atheistic worldview, Homosexuaity is neither wrong, or acceptable, because an atheistic worldview doesnt comment on homosexuality at all. There is no Atheist bible. There is no Atheist decree of Dogma and Tenants. You are free to be convinced, and to believe whatever convinced you. There are some atheists who believe that homosexuality is good, and some that believe it is bad. And whether they be convinced by good, or bad reasons, all atheists would agree that they are STILL atheists.

And alas. I asked you view on the matter. We can't ask every person on the face of the earth. Different religions and denominations within Christianity have differing views about a topic like divorce. Just as atheists may have differing views.

Can the same be said of ANY other religion? If you stopped believing that Jesus is God, but still believed in Jesus and God, and called yourself a christian, would other christians chime in and say "Yeah, you are still a christian"? If you stopped believing that homosexuality, even the act of it, is wrong, would most christians agree with you that you are still a christian?

Of course not. Could the same be said about an atheist that claims there is no God but adheres to a moral law system? At best both this particular atheist and theist would have some questions posed to them about how they believe such things. Still, little difference.

Now. Since it is obvious that we can't ask everyone their worldview on matters such as divorce. It can vary within a religion or even a denomination when you get down to personal views.

I asked a simple question. I gave you the worldview of my Faith and mine. I asked you were the line is drawn on suffering for the better of someone else. I hope you can attempt to answer this question in your next post. I will be content if you chose to only reply to this paragraph of this post. The rest is, well, at best irrelevant to this conversation.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
tkubok
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12/21/2010 9:24:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/21/2010 9:02:05 PM, jharry wrote:
Lol. You have been spending to much time with Geo. That was Saint John Vianney. And this is rare then and now in the Church. It is not recommend or even mentioned. But his does tie into what we are talking about. The lines we draw in regards to suffering for others.
Sure, and just because a few christians go out and beat up homosexuals, doesnt mean everyone does. But the problem is the same.

Yes. But what does this have to do with differing worldviews?

It has to do with why Atheism is a better worldview, because we are capable of setting goals, instead of having goals that are pre-determined, and being unable to question or test such goals.

Oh my friend, that is definitely a conversation we must have. But not now, I think we have our plate full and other conversations to continue in tow.

Okay.

I asked what YOUR world view was. Not atheism.

The original topic, the original post, was asking why an ATHEIST worldview was superior.

And how is that relevant to the question I asked?

Read the OP. However, if you want to ask me specifically what i believe, it depends. On what specific belief or topic, are you asking about?

And alas. I asked you view on the matter. We can't ask every person on the face of the earth. Different religions and denominations within Christianity have differing views about a topic like divorce. Just as atheists may have differing views.

Yes, but that doestn change the fact that an atheist worldview is superior than a religios worldview. Again, my beliefs re far and wide, as well, and i could not possibly list every single belief i have.

Of course not. Could the same be said about an atheist that claims there is no God but adheres to a moral law system? At best both this particular atheist and theist would have some questions posed to them about how they believe such things. Still, little difference.

We all adhere to a moral law system. And no, the same cannot be said of atheism, because all you need to be an atheist is to disbelieve a God. I will acknowledge that ANYONE who disbelieves a God, no matter what other belief they may have, are atheists. And thats the difference between a theist and an Atheist.

I agree, and i never said that Atheists and Theists cannot agree on specific beliefs. However, this also doesnt change the fact that Atheist worldviews are infact superior.


Now. Since it is obvious that we can't ask everyone their worldview on matters such as divorce. It can vary within a religion or even a denomination when you get down to personal views.
Sure.
I asked a simple question. I gave you the worldview of my Faith and mine. I asked you were the line is drawn on suffering for the better of someone else. I hope you can attempt to answer this question in your next post. I will be content if you chose to only reply to this paragraph of this post. The rest is, well, at best irrelevant to this conversation.

Again, if your question is specifically on that belief and that belief alone, ill gladly answer, but this has nothing to do with an Atheist worldview and therefore is irrelevant to the original post. Ive been talking about all of this in terms of an atheistic worldview.

In any case, heres my reply. It all depends on the degree of pain and suffering, and the number of people affected.
tkubok
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12/21/2010 9:27:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/21/2010 8:49:37 PM, jharry wrote:
Actually, no. I sent no such message. But anyway it doesn't matter. You were very busy, I hope you wouldn't put this site or my conversation above you personal life. Totally understandable.

What you wrote, was this:

Please, before you start replying to al the posts I made because I had to break up the 8000 limit post you will agree that it is time that we move on. I hope you will agree.

If you still dont believe me, ill send you a screenshot.

Actually you just called out every single person on earth. No one is immune to the problem of not wanting to admit when they are wrong. But, I asked how does it effect their life. You seemed to have skipped that part.

Sure. But dont you agree that it is possible to be as honest as you possibly can? Dont you agree that, even though we make mistakes, we can place systems and standards that decrease the likelyhood of errors?

But what do you mean by "how does it effect their life"? how does "What" effect their life?
jharry
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12/21/2010 9:39:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/21/2010 9:27:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 12/21/2010 8:49:37 PM, jharry wrote:
Actually, no. I sent no such message. But anyway it doesn't matter. You were very busy, I hope you wouldn't put this site or my conversation above you personal life. Totally understandable.

What you wrote, was this:

Please, before you start replying to al the posts I made because I had to break up the 8000 limit post you will agree that it is time that we move on. I hope you will agree.

If you still dont believe me, ill send you a screenshot.

I have it. You must have taken "move on" differently then I meant it. And the post before that was this

"No hurry. Just please make sure you pm me when you respond if it will be a while. From now on I will try to extend the same respect."

From me to you. I never intended in stopping the conversation. Just dropping the huge thread that was going no where. We had gone so far in that thread i so many directions. But he last post in the last paragraph is what I was hoping we could move on to. And we had more conversations then that one. Anyway, it is no big deal really. You got busy, I understand completely.

Actually you just called out every single person on earth. No one is immune to the problem of not wanting to admit when they are wrong. But, I asked how does it effect their life. You seemed to have skipped that part.

Sure. But dont you agree that it is possible to be as honest as you possibly can? Dont you agree that, even though we make mistakes, we can place systems and standards that decrease the likelyhood of errors?

You would have to prove that someone honestly does/does not believe something before you can accurately say they are being dishonest. So it is really irrelevant if you hold an opinion that some one is dishonest in their beliefs. Unless you can rad minds of course.

But what do you mean by "how does it effect their life"? how does "What" effect their life?

Their beliefs in regards to honesty. Does their beliefs effect how honest they are in every situation? I think you can see the irrelevancy of your statements.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
tkubok
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12/21/2010 10:06:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/21/2010 9:39:43 PM, jharry wrote:
I have it. You must have taken "move on" differently then I meant it. And the post before that was this

"No hurry. Just please make sure you pm me when you respond if it will be a while. From now on I will try to extend the same respect."

From me to you. I never intended in stopping the conversation. Just dropping the huge thread that was going no where. We had gone so far in that thread i so many directions. But he last post in the last paragraph is what I was hoping we could move on to. And we had more conversations then that one. Anyway, it is no big deal really. You got busy, I understand completely.
Oh, well you werent specific about it, so i didnt know what you were talking about at first. Thats fine.

You would have to prove that someone honestly does/does not believe something before you can accurately say they are being dishonest. So it is really irrelevant if you hold an opinion that some one is dishonest in their beliefs. Unless you can rad minds of course.

Actually, no. As i said before, we can set goals on our beliefs. My goal is to have the most true beliefs possible, and the least false beliefs possible. If you dont care about having the most true beliefs possible, and rejecting the false beliefs, then i suppose there is nothing dishonest about accepting a belief with extremely poor or otherwise non-existant evidence. However, if you agree that those are important to you, then you could not be honest with yourself and still claim to believe those things which have poor or otherwise no evidence to support them.

Their beliefs in regards to honesty. Does their beliefs effect how honest they are in every situation? I think you can see the irrelevancy of your statements.

Not in every situation, but in the situations that are relevant, yes.