Total Posts:36|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Does Christianity makes us weak?

imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Nietzche did talk about how religion (and morality in general) makes us more weak and our life less meaningful. Religious morality makes things fair for everyone, but limits your own potential.

Spinoza talked about how god isn't some creator or omnipotent being. God was rather something closer to nature. Spinoza didn't like the idea that people would be so reliant on god and didn't like how people would pray to him so that he can make their lives better. Rather, it was more wise to accept the laws of nature (or Spinoza's god) instead of being dissatisfied and asking for change.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 7:33:53 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Religious morality makes things fair for everyone, but limits your own potential.
Fair how?
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 7:54:13 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:33:53 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Religious morality makes things fair for everyone, but limits your own potential.
Fair how?

Self-sacrifice. Maybe I should have said "more fair".
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 8:21:41 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Nietzche did talk about how religion (and morality in general) makes us more weak and our life less meaningful. Religious morality makes things fair for everyone, but limits your own potential.

Spinoza talked about how god isn't some creator or omnipotent being. God was rather something closer to nature. Spinoza didn't like the idea that people would be so reliant on god and didn't like how people would pray to him so that he can make their lives better. Rather, it was more wise to accept the laws of nature (or Spinoza's god) instead of being dissatisfied and asking for change.

Surely the "fair for everyone" part is the most important? Christ certainly thought so.

But no, Christianity doesn't make you weak, far from it. Read Matthew 10 and ask yourself how many weak people could stand up against even a few of the problems that becoming a Christian can cause you.

Of course, it depends on what you call weak. This world has a tendency to confuse strength with might, moral strength with physical strength.

Turning the other cheek is seen by some as weak and yet it takes more strength not to strike back than it does to simply give in and prolong the conflict.

Read your Bible and learn how strong followers of Jehovah have had to be, especially to accept the responsibility and the consequences when they did n fact weaken.
Willows
Posts: 2,027
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 8:59:50 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Nietzche did talk about how religion (and morality in general) makes us more weak and our life less meaningful. Religious morality makes things fair for everyone, but limits your own potential.

Spinoza talked about how god isn't some creator or omnipotent being. God was rather something closer to nature. Spinoza didn't like the idea that people would be so reliant on god and didn't like how people would pray to him so that he can make their lives better. Rather, it was more wise to accept the laws of nature (or Spinoza's god) instead of being dissatisfied and asking for change.

I suppose from a philosophical point of view, those who become Christians can only get stronger. They would have to be on the lowest rung of weakness in the first place to turn to God, so there is only one direction to go.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 9:19:22 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:54:13 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:33:53 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Religious morality makes things fair for everyone, but limits your own potential.
Fair how?
Self-sacrifice.
Of what, for whom, with justice assessed how?

People of every society, regardless of faith, sacrifice for their society. In many societies they do so without expectation of reward.

What sacrifices do you believe Christian societies make that non-Christian societies do not? And which of these are not promised disproportionate rewards for such sacrifice -- but only for the faithful?

I'm trying to understand your sense of justice, ImpChimp. I have not found Christian doctrine aspiring to justice so much as asserting that its customs and traditions are just, even when they're vain, inequitable or disrespectful.
Omniverse
Posts: 973
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 9:35:40 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Religious morality makes things fair for everyone

Religious morality is diverse. Would you be saying that no matter what religious morality dictates it will always be fair?

And fair in what way?

, but limits your own potential.

Spinoza talked about how god isn't some creator or omnipotent being. God was rather something closer to nature. Spinoza didn't like the idea that people would be so reliant on god and didn't like how people would pray to him so that he can make their lives better. Rather, it was more wise to accept the laws of nature (or Spinoza's god) instead of being dissatisfied and asking for change.

What does it entail to accept the Laws of Nature?
Is gravity a Law of Nature?

When we fly planes or crafts into outer space are we disobeying the law of gravity? Is that a good or a bad thing, in your opinion?

In a sense, Civilization is essentially the march away from nature.
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 10:19:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Surely the "fair for everyone" part is the most important? Christ certainly thought so.

But no, Christianity doesn't make you weak, far from it. Read Matthew 10 and ask yourself how many weak people could stand up against even a few of the problems that becoming a Christian can cause you.

Of course, it depends on what you call weak. This world has a tendency to confuse strength with might, moral strength with physical strength.

Weakness as in life-denying. Limiting your own potential for equality. To make someone else's life better.
This is what Nietzsche meant.

Turning the other cheek is seen by some as weak and yet it takes more strength not to strike back than it does to simply give in and prolong the conflict.

That's debatable.

Read your Bible and learn how strong followers of Jehovah have had to be, especially to accept the responsibility and the consequences when they did n fact weaken.

I don't have a Bible.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 10:26:23 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
What does it entail to accept the Laws of Nature?
Is gravity a Law of Nature?

yes

When we fly planes or crafts into outer space are we disobeying the law of gravity? Is that a good or a bad thing, in your opinion?

You don't defy laws of gravity when you fly a rocket into space.

Flying into space is a good thing. We discover and understand the universe. This is what Spinoza wanted us to do.

In a sense, Civilization is essentially the march away from nature.

Civilization is part of nature. There is no such thing as man vs nature.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 10:33:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 9:35:40 AM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Religious morality makes things fair for everyone

Religious morality is diverse. Would you be saying that no matter what religious morality dictates it will always be fair?

True. Let's replace religious morality with christian morality.

And fair in what way?

Self sacrifice. Limiting your own potential to help others. This prevents from becoming what Nietzsche calls, "the Superman".
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
Omniverse
Posts: 973
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 10:45:56 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 10:26:23 PM, imperialchimp wrote:
What does it entail to accept the Laws of Nature?
Is gravity a Law of Nature?

yes

When we fly planes or crafts into outer space are we disobeying the law of gravity? Is that a good or a bad thing, in your opinion?

You don't defy laws of gravity when you fly a rocket into space.

Flying into space is a good thing. We discover and understand the universe. This is what Spinoza wanted us to do.

In a sense, Civilization is essentially the march away from nature.

Civilization is part of nature. There is no such thing as man vs nature.

Not nature in that sense. Nature in the sense of absence of the rule of Law.
Omniverse
Posts: 973
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 10:47:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 10:33:24 PM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 7/6/2016 9:35:40 AM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Religious morality makes things fair for everyone

Religious morality is diverse. Would you be saying that no matter what religious morality dictates it will always be fair?

True. Let's replace religious morality with christian morality.

And fair in what way?

Self sacrifice. Limiting your own potential to help others. This prevents from becoming what Nietzsche calls, "the Superman".

Christian morality is simply awful.
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 10:55:16 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 10:45:56 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/6/2016 10:26:23 PM, imperialchimp wrote:
What does it entail to accept the Laws of Nature?
Is gravity a Law of Nature?

yes

When we fly planes or crafts into outer space are we disobeying the law of gravity? Is that a good or a bad thing, in your opinion?

You don't defy laws of gravity when you fly a rocket into space.

Flying into space is a good thing. We discover and understand the universe. This is what Spinoza wanted us to do.

In a sense, Civilization is essentially the march away from nature.

Civilization is part of nature. There is no such thing as man vs nature.

Not nature in that sense. Nature in the sense of absence of the rule of Law.

okay.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 11:03:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 9:19:22 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:54:13 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:33:53 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Religious morality makes things fair for everyone, but limits your own potential.
Fair how?
Self-sacrifice.
Of what, for whom, with justice assessed how?

People of every society, regardless of faith, sacrifice for their society. In many societies they do so without expectation of reward.

Christian morality is very influential. It's influenced even atheists. Anyways, they don't do it as often as a devout christian (just generalizing).

What sacrifices do you believe Christian societies make that non-Christian societies do not? And which of these are not promised disproportionate rewards for such sacrifice -- but only for the faithful?

The 3 monotheistic beliefs have very similar, if not, the same morality as each other.

Like I said, Christians often sacrifice more than other people.

I'm trying to understand your sense of justice, ImpChimp. I have not found Christian doctrine aspiring to justice so much as asserting that its customs and traditions are just, even when they're vain, inequitable or disrespectful.

It's alright to have your own morality to keep you from feeling guilty. Too much is just plain out life denying.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
Eventum
Posts: 5
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 11:18:45 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
This question is extremely vague. Can you please be more specific? Did you just want to discuss Christian morality and its effects? What aspect of Christianity are you referring to? Until this is cleared up, this discussion is prone to ambiguity.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 11:20:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 11:03:44 PM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 7/6/2016 9:19:22 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:54:13 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:33:53 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Religious morality makes things fair for everyone, but limits your own potential.
Fair how?
Self-sacrifice.
Of what, for whom, with justice assessed how?

People of every society, regardless of faith, sacrifice for their society. In many societies they do so without expectation of reward.

Christian morality is very influential. It's influenced even atheists. Anyways, they don't do it as often as a devout christian (just generalizing).
Christians do morality more often. WOW
What sacrifices do you believe Christian societies make that non-Christian societies do not? And which of these are not promised disproportionate rewards for such sacrifice -- but only for the faithful?

The 3 monotheistic beliefs have very similar, if not, the same morality as each other.
Yeah mostly immoral and you think there's only THREE? WOW
Like I said, Christians often sacrifice more than other people.
And it's nice that you said it, so fckin what?
I'm trying to understand your sense of justice, ImpChimp. I have not found Christian doctrine aspiring to justice so much as asserting that its customs and traditions are just, even when they're vain, inequitable or disrespectful.

It's alright to have your own morality to keep you from feeling guilty. Too much is just plain out life denying.
What is plain out life denying.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 11:20:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 11:03:44 PM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 7/6/2016 9:19:22 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:54:13 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:33:53 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Religious morality makes things fair for everyone, but limits your own potential.
Fair how?
Self-sacrifice.
Of what, for whom, with justice assessed how?

People of every society, regardless of faith, sacrifice for their society. In many societies they do so without expectation of reward.
Christian morality is very influential.
Christian moral philosophy is very influential, both because there has been a lot of it, and because it has been disseminated very far on the backs of empires.

The morality of Christian canon though... what precepts do you think distinguish it from the doctrinal morality of unrelated humanistic faiths, like Buddhism or Jainism say?

Anyways, they don't do it as often as a devout christian (just generalizing).
By 'do it' you mean donate to charity? Is this the sacrifice you're talking about? Or do you mean something else?

What sacrifices do you believe Christian societies make that non-Christian societies do not? And which of these are not promised disproportionate rewards for such sacrifice -- but only for the faithful?

The 3 monotheistic beliefs have very similar, if not, the same morality as each other.
For information, there are more than three monotheistic faiths, Chimp -- I can name six off-hand, and found fourteen more on a quick search.

The ones you're likely referring to -- Judaism, Christianity and Islam -- also aren't the oldest. According to independent historical evidence, Zoroastrianism is older than all three.

Regardless, I don't know why you think they have the same morality. Adherents of each very much reject some moral precepts from other faiths, including what is required of a good person and what is optional, what is forbidden and what is permitted.

And you didn't answer my question: what sacrifices does a Christian perform that is not performed by (say) a Jainist or Buddhist?

You said there was 'more of it' -- but more of what? Sacrificing time in the form of worship or prayer for others? Sacrificing wealth in the form of charitable donations? Sacrificing labour? Building churches, temples and places of worship?

Like I said, Christians often sacrifice more than other people.
So far you haven't defined what they're sacrificing, or supplied any data to show there's more of it, or demonstrated that such sacrifice improves equity so much as it is an ostentatious display of piety meant to impress fellow parishioners or win divine favour.

I'm trying to understand your sense of justice, ImpChimp. I have not found Christian doctrine aspiring to justice so much as asserting that its customs and traditions are just, even when they're vain, inequitable or disrespectful.
It's alright to have your own morality to keep you from feeling guilty. Too much is just plain out life denying.
Well, you've switched from 'fairness' -- which is normally seen as a question of justice, to 'morality' which is normally seen as a matter of determining goodness. They're related, but not identical: e.g. nutrition is good; sharing nutrition is just.

When you say you're 'generalising', are you summarising independent research, or asserting self-satisfied cultural prejudices?
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 11:24:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I suppose from a philosophical point of view, those who become Christians can only get stronger. They would have to be on the lowest rung of weakness in the first place to turn to God, so there is only one direction to go.

Maybe. But I believe the strength comes from within themselves, not god. In my opinion, denying your own strength is a weak thing to do. If the christian god is gone, then they lose all their strength. Why do you think so many theists are eager to defend god against science and atheists. If their god was false and if they found out their god was false, they would be broken. It's just like a bunch of soldiers whose morale is so dependent on their general. It's unbreakable until their general is dead.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/6/2016 11:56:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Christians do morality more often. WOW

You must think they are immoral. How so?

What sacrifices do you believe Christian societies make that non-Christian societies do not? And which of these are not promised disproportionate rewards for such sacrifice -- but only for the faithful?

The 3 monotheistic beliefs have very similar, if not, the same morality as each other.
Yeah mostly immoral and you think there's only THREE? WOW

Nope. I said "the three" not "all three". This also goes to RuvDraba. Do I really have to say "Islam, Judaism, and Christianity" for you 2 to understand what i mean!?

Like I said, Christians often sacrifice more than other people.
And it's nice that you said it, so fckin what?

That weakens them. They over do it. They do it so they don't take an eternal trip to hell.

You must hate Christians.

I'm trying to understand your sense of justice, ImpChimp. I have not found Christian doctrine aspiring to justice so much as asserting that its customs and traditions are just, even when they're vain, inequitable or disrespectful.

It's alright to have your own morality to keep you from feeling guilty. Too much is just plain out life denying.
What is plain out life denying.


Morality helps people in the short term. It reduces suffering.
BUT Nietzsche did say that struggle and suffering is needed for individual development. You deny opportunities to development
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/7/2016 12:07:15 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 11:56:22 PM, imperialchimp wrote:
Christians do morality more often. WOW

You must think they are immoral. How so?
How do you DO morality?
What sacrifices do you believe Christian societies make that non-Christian societies do not? And which of these are not promised disproportionate rewards for such sacrifice -- but only for the faithful?

The 3 monotheistic beliefs have very similar, if not, the same morality as each other.
Yeah mostly immoral and you think there's only THREE? WOW

Nope. I said "the three" not "all three". This also goes to RuvDraba. Do I really have to say "Islam, Judaism, and Christianity" for you 2 to understand what i mean!?
You need to understand what you write, currently that is problematic.
Like I said, Christians often sacrifice more than other people.
And it's nice that you said it, so fckin what?

That weakens them. They over do it. They do it so they don't take an eternal trip to hell.

You must hate Christians.
Was there something I wrote that compels you to make such a claim?
I'm trying to understand your sense of justice, ImpChimp. I have not found Christian doctrine aspiring to justice so much as asserting that its customs and traditions are just, even when they're vain, inequitable or disrespectful.

It's alright to have your own morality to keep you from feeling guilty. Too much is just plain out life denying.
What is plain out life denying.


Morality helps people in the short term. It reduces suffering.
BUT Nietzsche did say that struggle and suffering is needed for individual development. You deny opportunities to development
What is plain out life denying.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/7/2016 1:33:24 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
How do you DO morality?

I caught that now.

Nope. I said "the three" not "all three". This also goes to RuvDraba. Do I really have to say "Islam, Judaism, and Christianity" for you 2 to understand what i mean!?
You need to understand what you write, currently that is problematic.

It really isn't that problematic. At least you and RuvDraba knew what I was referring to.
I can't tell if you said this because you were butthurt. Do you want your mommy to put some baby powder on your white a**?
And it's nice that you said it, so fckin what?

That weakens them. They over do it. They do it so they don't take an eternal trip to hell.

You must hate Christians.
Was there something I wrote that compels you to make such a claim?

Yep. Don't worry, I'm not a Christian (if you haven't found out yet).

Morality helps people in the short term. It reduces suffering.
BUT Nietzsche did say that struggle and suffering is needed for individual development. You deny opportunities to development
What is plain out life denying.


Really life defying. Do you not know what plain out means? I already said what I mean by life defying and yet you still can't even figure it out. It's like you want me to get in a chimp rampage and rip out your face so no one can recognize you.

It seems to me that you want to argue about some stupid mechanical errors. Don't expect me to respond to you. I don't give a **** about what you say after this.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/7/2016 2:00:06 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
The morality of Christian canon though... what precepts do you think distinguish it from the doctrinal morality of unrelated humanistic faiths, like Buddhism or Jainism say?

Actually you have a point. I'll be honest. The real reason why I targeted Christians was so I could get some responses.
However, Buddhists don't believe in a god. They believe in strength from within (through meditation) and suffering from man-made things, not from anything super natural. Though reincarnation and nirvana is kind of wacky, Buddha is an example of someone who understood suffering in the world, something Spinoza would want people to do.

My parents are actually Buddhists.

By 'do it' you mean donate to charity? Is this the sacrifice you're talking about? Or do you mean something else?

Sacrifice your own interests and desires so you don't hurt anyone.

For information, there are more than three monotheistic faiths, Chimp -- I can name six off-hand, and found fourteen more on a quick search.
The ones you're likely referring to -- Judaism, Christianity and Islam -- also aren't the oldest. According to independent historical evidence, Zoroastrianism is older than all three.

You can read post #19

Regardless, I don't know why you think they have the same morality. Adherents of each very much reject some moral precepts from other faiths, including what is required of a good person and what is optional, what is forbidden and what is permitted.

True, but they still both believe in one god and are so reliant on that one god.

And you didn't answer my question: what sacrifices does a Christian perform that is not performed by (say) a Jainist or Buddhist?

I probably explained this above.

You said there was 'more of it' -- but more of what? Sacrificing time in the form of worship or prayer for others? Sacrificing wealth in the form of charitable donations? Sacrificing labour? Building churches, temples and places of worship?

Like I said, Christians often sacrifice more than other people.
So far you haven't defined what they're sacrificing, or supplied any data to show there's more of it, or demonstrated that such sacrifice improves equity so much as it is an ostentatious display of piety meant to impress fellow parishioners or win divine favour.

Sacrifice (usually) doesn't achieve actual equity but it can at least make things more equal.

I'm trying to understand your sense of justice, ImpChimp. I have not found Christian doctrine aspiring to justice so much as asserting that its customs and traditions are just, even when they're vain, inequitable or disrespectful.
It's alright to have your own morality to keep you from feeling guilty. Too much is just plain out life denying.

Well, you've switched from 'fairness' -- which is normally seen as a question of justice, to 'morality' which is normally seen as a matter of determining goodness. They're related, but not identical: e.g. nutrition is good; sharing nutrition is just.

I didn't know you were still talking about fairness.

When you say you're 'generalising', are you summarising independent research, or asserting self-satisfied cultural prejudices?

The latter. I had a feeling you guys were going to say "not all christians are like that".

I'll organize and clean up my argument later.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/7/2016 2:37:21 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/7/2016 2:00:06 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
The morality of Christian canon though... what precepts do you think distinguish it from the doctrinal morality of unrelated humanistic faiths, like Buddhism or Jainism say?

Actually you have a point. I'll be honest. The real reason why I targeted Christians was so I could get some responses.

Thanks, Chimp. I'm sincere in trying to understand your meaning, not necessarily so I can criticise it (although I would if I thought its premises flawed), but because I was interested in getting to some answers. I have my own thoughts, but haven't shared them because the sense of the question wasn't clear to me.

It's now becoming clearer, so thank you.

As I understand it, you're talking about sacrificing personal, short-term desires for long-term community benefits. I don't think you're talking about sacrificing needs. So you seem to mean what is sometimes called civic-mindedness or public spirit.

You've tied it to Christian moral thought, and I'd agree that's legitimate; Christian culture has a long tradition of enshrining civic benevolence as an act of piety, and there's some scriptural canon supporting that too. I'd agree with you that Abrahamic faiths tend to share these sensibilities, though not all sects, and not every sect in the same way.

The part of the story that seems missing to me though is that civic-mindedness is not an especially Christian or Abrahamic tradition. You've agreed we can also find it in Buddhism, but we could equally cite Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Bah'ai, Chinese traditional beliefs and many others. And outside religion we can also find it in secular service clubs like Rotary, Civitan, Optimists, Soroptimists and many more. Then there are secular Non-Government Organisations like M"decins Sans Fronti"res, Red Cross/Red Crescent, Amnesty International, Greenpeace. Further afield still we can find it in sports clubs, motorcycle clubs, hobby clubs, social clubs, schools, trade unions, defense associations, emergency services, chambers of commerce and businesses of every size and description.

It seems to me that civic-mindedness follows both motive and opportunity: people who interact with the community at large notice needs, and people gathering in groups tend to find ways to service them.

So unless you think there's a particularly Christian nuance here I don't grasp, you seem to be asking whether civic-mindedness and public spirit makes us weak?

And if so, I cannot help but wonder: weak in what way?

I had a feeling you guys were going to say "not all christians are like that".
Given the applicable scope of your question, I'd say 'not all of anyone is like that'. :)

But I still don't see why you'd confine the question to Christians in particular. Plenty of people donate to charities, do volunteer work, engage in public service of various kinds. Some is acknowledged, but a lot isn't. For example, as a former science researcher and educator, I've never met a competent scientist who couldn't make 50% more income working in industry, or a quality teacher who couldn't make 100% more salary in a communications field like marketing or public relations, and in my country there are few General Practitioners who couldn't make 30% more salary in some other field of medicine.

In any case, 'we guys' have no doctrinal canon, nor regular meetings to decide what we think. So there's no assurance that rejecting religion will settle one point-of-view or another, but there is some assurance that when someone on a debate site asks you a question, they're not entirely happy with an assumption or a line of reasoning. :)

I'll organize and clean up my argument later.
Well, as a Religious None who's very concerned about improving public spirit, I'll be interested to hear more about why you think that either civic mindedness -- or else the way Christians are impelled to do it -- is making people weak.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/7/2016 5:53:15 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/7/2016 1:33:24 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
How do you DO morality?

I caught that now.

Nope. I said "the three" not "all three". This also goes to RuvDraba. Do I really have to say "Islam, Judaism, and Christianity" for you 2 to understand what i mean!?
You need to understand what you write, currently that is problematic.

It really isn't that problematic. At least you and RuvDraba knew what I was referring to.
I can't tell if you said this because you were butthurt. Do you want your mommy to put some baby powder on your white a**?
And it's nice that you said it, so fckin what?

That weakens them. They over do it. They do it so they don't take an eternal trip to hell.

You must hate Christians.
Was there something I wrote that compels you to make such a claim?

Yep. Don't worry, I'm not a Christian (if you haven't found out yet).

Morality helps people in the short term. It reduces suffering.
BUT Nietzsche did say that struggle and suffering is needed for individual development. You deny opportunities to development
What is plain out life denying.


Really life defying. Do you not know what plain out means? I already said what I mean by life defying and yet you still can't even figure it out. It's like you want me to get in a chimp rampage and rip out your face so no one can recognize you.

It seems to me that you want to argue about some stupid mechanical errors. Don't expect me to respond to you. I don't give a **** about what you say after this.

Wow, you get all bitter and twisted when people correct you. If by butthurt you mean upset I'm pretty sure we know who that applies to and it ain't me.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2016 7:48:17 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/7/2016 2:37:21 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Well, as a Religious None who's very concerned about improving public spirit, I'll be interested to hear more about why you think that either civic mindedness -- or else the way Christians are impelled to do it -- is making people weak.

Okay, I finally cleaned up the mess a bit. It"s more organized. Hopefully it"s clear enoough.

Instead of Christianity, I should say the general idea of morality. Anyways, religious morality in general inhibits greatness and therefore leaves us weak. It can take away someone"s potential for greatness. Now that he is weakened, his potential is more equal to that of a common man. He sacrificed greatness for "fairness".

What I mean by weak is lacking greatness. Someone like Jesus wouldn"t quality as this kind of "great" but someone like Hitler, Augustus, Napoleon, Ramesses II, and several others would. These people are some of the most powerful and brilliant people in history. Though some of them were technically Christian, they weren"t actually religious due to their actions. Anyways, these figures are what Nietzsche said we should look up to.

To become great, you may have to work in ways that would be called "immoral" to the religious. For example, government leaders like Stalin and Hitler had to kill political enemies to reach to the top. Yet, both Stalin and Hitler are undeniably great (and infamous). If you're running for president, lying might as well be inevitable (you know who I"m talking about). I"m pretty sure you get the point. Religion looks down on these actions.

In Christianity, the powerful rulers (non-Christian) were expected to go to hell. The poor but religious folk were expected to reach heaven. This clearly keeps people poor and weak as it prevented them from becoming great. No matter how much suffering they faced, it didn"t change the fact that leaders were simply better than them. The powerful who do convert will most likely limit their actions to more moral ones. This limits the person"s potential and therefore weakens him/her.

Religious morality (not religion itself) should reduce the amount of suffering in the world. Morality can help prevent others from hurting you (through lies, stealing, murder, etc.).This also should reduce the amount of potential available for self-development. For self-development, suffering and struggle is needed. They give opportunities to learn and rise from their current state. For example, if someone was to lie to you, you would feel hurt. You may also learn from it in different ways (use the same trick/lie or ways to avoid it). Now it would be more difficult for us to learn from lies if there were less lies to begin with. With less opportunities for individual development, greatness would be more difficult to achieve.

Most religions talk about what the world should be like and how we can change it. Nietzsche disagreed with this idea and believed that the world is a battlefield for survival (basically natural selection). By trying to change the world with religion, you become a prey to the greater ones who aren"t religious. This has already happened numerous times (i.e. Dark Ages).

If you"re wondering why I said religious morality it"s because most of the major ones sort have the same basic morals (don"t kill, lie, steal, etc).
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2016 10:05:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Nietzche did talk about how religion (and morality in general) makes us more weak and our life less meaningful. Religious morality makes things fair for everyone, but limits your own potential.

Spinoza talked about how god isn't some creator or omnipotent being. God was rather something closer to nature. Spinoza didn't like the idea that people would be so reliant on god and didn't like how people would pray to him so that he can make their lives better. Rather, it was more wise to accept the laws of nature (or Spinoza's god) instead of being dissatisfied and asking for change.

Hardly. Christianity fought the Nazis.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2016 10:35:06 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/10/2016 7:48:17 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Okay, I finally cleaned up the mess a bit. It"s more organized. Hopefully it"s clear enough.
Instead of Christianity, I should say the general idea of morality. Anyways, religious morality in general inhibits greatness and therefore leaves us weak.
The examples of 'greatness' you talked about seemed to be purely in the amassing and projection of coercive power, and I think that's limited, since greatness is more often thought of as effecting sweeping social change -- which doesn't always require coercion. (See Gandhi, King, or Mandela, for example.)

But nevertheless it's interesting that you chose examples of tyrants who didn't identify strongly as Christian, while ignoring the many coercive tyrants who did. For example, Pope Urban II (who authorised the first Crusades as a Holy War against Muslim infidels), King Ferdinand of Spain (who authorised the Spanish Inquisition and the Spanish conquest of the New World), Henry VIII (who coerced a whole country into forced religious conversion through confiscation of property, torture and execution), Ivan the Terrible (torturer and slaughterer of peasants, merchants and boyars on mere the suspicion of crimes), or Augusto Pinochet (Chilean Roman Catholic dictator who arranged the disappearances of thousands of political rivals, and the torture of tens of thousands more.)

You've also ignored the long-accepted Christian moral philosophy that supports these things. In particular, the writings of Augustine of Hippo on the criteria of a Just War, and of early Christian theologians of the importance of obedience to the ruler, even if it means slaying in their name, and the widespread use of torture and executions in virtually all Mediaeval, Renaissance and Early Modern Christian lands -- and the tortures and executions continued to be practiced without apology by the predominantly Christian US today.

While it's true that dictators may be exceptions to the morality of the population, it's also true that when Christians are called to war, they generally go -- even if the war is for unclear reasons not in their immediate national defense. For example, before Iraq, the Vietnam war was the most unpopular war in US history. At a time when 91% of the US identified as Christian [https://en.wikipedia.org...], some nine million military personnel saw active duty in punishing the citizens of a sovereign nation for choosing a political system the US didn't like [http://www.nationalvietnamveteransfoundation.org...]. About 2 million were draftees, many more were anxious volunteers, yet conscientious objection rates were only 2% of the total. [http://www.encyclopedia.com...]

It can take away someone"s potential for greatness. Now that he is weakened, his potential is more equal to that of a common man. He sacrificed greatness for "fairness".
That'd perhaps be more credible, Imp, if Christianity itself hadn't been spread globally by persecution, forced conversion, ethnic cleansing, economic pressure and genocide. From the time it became a state faith of the Roman empire, its propagation through Europe and into the New World was by coercive power, and the reformation and counter-reformation of its doctrines used coercive power whenever people preferred to keep their own traditions. Indeed, the early colonies of the US was founded on fleeing such persecution -- only to assert its own Manifest Destiny to displace and Christianise others.

So I'm wondering what peaceful and moral Christianity you're talking about, Imp? Do you mean the one people talk about but don't really practice? For example, in the last two centuries, how many ways has the Christian-majority US found to kill imprisoned felons its population cannot forgive?
Willows
Posts: 2,027
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2016 10:57:39 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/10/2016 10:35:06 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/10/2016 7:48:17 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Okay, I finally cleaned up the mess a bit. It"s more organized. Hopefully it"s clear enough.
Instead of Christianity, I should say the general idea of morality. Anyways, religious morality in general inhibits greatness and therefore leaves us weak.
The examples of 'greatness' you talked about seemed to be purely in the amassing and projection of coercive power, and I think that's limited, since greatness is more often thought of as effecting sweeping social change -- which doesn't always require coercion. (See Gandhi, King, or Mandela, for example.)

But nevertheless it's interesting that you chose examples of tyrants who didn't identify strongly as Christian, while ignoring the many coercive tyrants who did. For example, Pope Urban II (who authorised the first Crusades as a Holy War against Muslim infidels), King Ferdinand of Spain (who authorised the Spanish Inquisition and the Spanish conquest of the New World), Henry VIII (who coerced a whole country into forced religious conversion through confiscation of property, torture and execution), Ivan the Terrible (torturer and slaughterer of peasants, merchants and boyars on mere the suspicion of crimes), or Augusto Pinochet (Chilean Roman Catholic dictator who arranged the disappearances of thousands of political rivals, and the torture of tens of thousands more.)

You've also ignored the long-accepted Christian moral philosophy that supports these things. In particular, the writings of Augustine of Hippo on the criteria of a Just War, and of early Christian theologians of the importance of obedience to the ruler, even if it means slaying in their name, and the widespread use of torture and executions in virtually all Mediaeval, Renaissance and Early Modern Christian lands -- and the tortures and executions continued to be practiced without apology by the predominantly Christian US today.

While it's true that dictators may be exceptions to the morality of the population, it's also true that when Christians are called to war, they generally go -- even if the war is for unclear reasons not in their immediate national defense. For example, before Iraq, the Vietnam war was the most unpopular war in US history. At a time when 91% of the US identified as Christian [https://en.wikipedia.org...], some nine million military personnel saw active duty in punishing the citizens of a sovereign nation for choosing a political system the US didn't like [http://www.nationalvietnamveteransfoundation.org...]. About 2 million were draftees, many more were anxious volunteers, yet conscientious objection rates were only 2% of the total. [http://www.encyclopedia.com...]

It can take away someone"s potential for greatness. Now that he is weakened, his potential is more equal to that of a common man. He sacrificed greatness for "fairness".
That'd perhaps be more credible, Imp, if Christianity itself hadn't been spread globally by persecution, forced conversion, ethnic cleansing, economic pressure and genocide. From the time it became a state faith of the Roman empire, its propagation through Europe and into the New World was by coercive power, and the reformation and counter-reformation of its doctrines used coercive power whenever people preferred to keep their own traditions. Indeed, the early colonies of the US was founded on fleeing such persecution -- only to assert its own Manifest Destiny to displace and Christianise others.

So I'm wondering what peaceful and moral Christianity you're talking about, Imp? Do you mean the one people talk about but don't really practice? For example, in the last two centuries, how many ways has the Christian-majority US found to kill imprisoned felons its population cannot forgive?

Has there ever been a moment in history when christianity has ever displayed anywhere near the peace and morals of the secular society of the day?
No.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2016 11:14:24 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/10/2016 10:57:39 AM, Willows wrote:
At 7/10/2016 10:35:06 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
I'm wondering what peaceful and moral Christianity you're talking about, Imp? Do you mean the one people talk about but don't really practice? For example, in the last two centuries, how many ways has the Christian-majority US found to kill imprisoned felons its population cannot forgive?
Has there ever been a moment in history when christianity has ever displayed anywhere near the peace and morals of the secular society of the day?

There's an argument that monotheistic dualism (i.e. a creator/supervisor God and a devil responsible for tempting the world into evil) is the best friend expansionist empires ever had. Because it tells the populace that the evils of the world are their fault, and the only way to prevent evil is to support their government in taming and converting the world. So thanks to the broad opt-out clauses of Augustine of Hippo's Just War, if you're Christian, any war is fine as long as you can argue it's the other guy's fault -- even if you start it.

How does the song go?

Onward Christian soldiers
Marching as to war
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before [...]

Christ the royal master
Leads against the foe
Forward into battle
See His banners go


Yup. Christianity is the faith of love, and Islam's the faith of peace.
And if you contested that, they used to strangle, burn or behead you for it. :(
12_13
Posts: 1,361
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2016 5:37:25 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:19:43 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Does Christianity makes us weak?

I don"t know about you, but I am much stronger with God than by myself. Without Him I would be nothing. :)