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Proof no punishment scale exists in Chr.

Jovian
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7/6/2016 11:19:15 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
So I stumbled upon MadCornishBiker's topic "Why single out homosexuals?" ( http://www.debate.org... ) , where he is writing this:

Are all sins equal in Jehovah's eyes?

Well the price for sin, all sin is the same, death, so yes.


So then I guess it is really true, that no punishment scale at all exists in Christianity? All sinners go to hell, no matter the seriosity of the crime? This is in the same topic confirmed by NewLifeChristian:

Nobody is singling out homosexuals. Nobody is saying their sin is greater than any other sin. This (homosexuality) is an issue that has been refueled by recent events in society, this is why it is being discussed so often.

And yes, according to Romans 6:23, all sin is equal in the eyes of God. The price of all sin is death.


How could one even equate all crimes as equally bad? If you do this, then you are seriously saying that stealing a Snickers bar from a gas station is equally bad as torturing 50 million children to death. Would you also want this view to be installed in real life law as well? Should John who once drove against a red light be taken to the International Court of Justice in Hague, where he will be condemned to prison for life?
Omniverse
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7/6/2016 1:44:36 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 11:19:15 AM, Jovian wrote:
So I stumbled upon MadCornishBiker's topic "Why single out homosexuals?" ( http://www.debate.org... ) , where he is writing this:

Are all sins equal in Jehovah's eyes?

Well the price for sin, all sin is the same, death, so yes.


So then I guess it is really true, that no punishment scale at all exists in Christianity? All sinners go to hell, no matter the seriosity of the crime? This is in the same topic confirmed by NewLifeChristian:

Nobody is singling out homosexuals. Nobody is saying their sin is greater than any other sin. This (homosexuality) is an issue that has been refueled by recent events in society, this is why it is being discussed so often.

And yes, according to Romans 6:23, all sin is equal in the eyes of God. The price of all sin is death.


How could one even equate all crimes as equally bad? If you do this, then you are seriously saying that stealing a Snickers bar from a gas station is equally bad as torturing 50 million children to death. Would you also want this view to be installed in real life law as well? Should John who once drove against a red light be taken to the International Court of Justice in Hague, where he will be condemned to prison for life?

And that is precisely one of the several reasons Christianity is immoral.

Plus, remember, if a serial child molester repents and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Saviour on his deathbed a mere 2 seconds before he passes away, then he will be saved. A life long kind generous forgiving Hindu who refuses to accept Christ after having to put up with insufferable Christian proselytism, he will either perish at Armageddon or suffer eternally in Hell.

Isn't it just wonderful there's no evidence at all for all this Christian nonsense?
Jovian
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7/6/2016 2:51:31 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 1:44:36 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/6/2016 11:19:15 AM, Jovian wrote:
So I stumbled upon MadCornishBiker's topic "Why single out homosexuals?" ( http://www.debate.org... ) , where he is writing this:

Are all sins equal in Jehovah's eyes?

Well the price for sin, all sin is the same, death, so yes.


So then I guess it is really true, that no punishment scale at all exists in Christianity? All sinners go to hell, no matter the seriosity of the crime? This is in the same topic confirmed by NewLifeChristian:

Nobody is singling out homosexuals. Nobody is saying their sin is greater than any other sin. This (homosexuality) is an issue that has been refueled by recent events in society, this is why it is being discussed so often.

And yes, according to Romans 6:23, all sin is equal in the eyes of God. The price of all sin is death.


How could one even equate all crimes as equally bad? If you do this, then you are seriously saying that stealing a Snickers bar from a gas station is equally bad as torturing 50 million children to death. Would you also want this view to be installed in real life law as well? Should John who once drove against a red light be taken to the International Court of Justice in Hague, where he will be condemned to prison for life?

And that is precisely one of the several reasons Christianity is immoral.

Plus, remember, if a serial child molester repents and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Saviour on his deathbed a mere 2 seconds before he passes away, then he will be saved. A life long kind generous forgiving Hindu who refuses to accept Christ after having to put up with insufferable Christian proselytism, he will either perish at Armageddon or suffer eternally in Hell.

Isn't it just wonderful there's no evidence at all for all this Christian nonsense?
Calvinist
Posts: 43
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7/6/2016 4:29:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 11:19:15 AM, Jovian wrote:

How could one even equate all crimes as equally bad? If you do this, then you are seriously saying that stealing a Snickers bar from a gas station is equally bad as torturing 50 million children to death. Would you also want this view to be installed in real life law as well? Should John who once drove against a red light be taken to the International Court of Justice in Hague, where he will be condemned to prison for life?
Not all crimes are equal in severity. This is obvious through your own examination. Someone who lusts is not performing a sin as equal in severity as someone who rapes. However, both sins have the same punishment, namely, death (Romans 6:23). They also can both be forgiven the same way, namely, through Jesus Christ (1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:21). You can try and argue with me all day long about how unfair or unjust this may be, but you are arguing against the perfect example of justice (Deuteronomy 32:4).
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
FaustianJustice
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7/6/2016 4:46:01 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 4:29:16 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 11:19:15 AM, Jovian wrote:

How could one even equate all crimes as equally bad? If you do this, then you are seriously saying that stealing a Snickers bar from a gas station is equally bad as torturing 50 million children to death. Would you also want this view to be installed in real life law as well? Should John who once drove against a red light be taken to the International Court of Justice in Hague, where he will be condemned to prison for life?
Not all crimes are equal in severity. This is obvious through your own examination. Someone who lusts is not performing a sin as equal in severity as someone who rapes. However, both sins have the same punishment, namely, death (Romans 6:23). They also can both be forgiven the same way, namely, through Jesus Christ (1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:21). You can try and argue with me all day long about how unfair or unjust this may be, but you are arguing against the perfect example of justice (Deuteronomy 32:4).

Would you follow a deity that admits it was right most of the time? The God of the Bible gets downright Orwellian if followed blindly with no critical thought.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Calvinist
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7/6/2016 4:49:31 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 4:46:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Would you follow a deity that admits it was right most of the time? The God of the Bible gets downright Orwellian if followed blindly with no critical thought.
I would not follow a deity that was wrong. So no, I would not follow one that was only right "most of the time." I would not advise anyone to follow God blindly without critical thought. That is why you have so many sects/denominations in Christianity.
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
FaustianJustice
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7/6/2016 4:52:18 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 4:49:31 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 4:46:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Would you follow a deity that admits it was right most of the time? The God of the Bible gets downright Orwellian if followed blindly with no critical thought.

I would not follow a deity that was wrong. So no, I would not follow one that was only right "most of the time."

Pretty good incentive to claim oneself "perfect" then, yes?

I would not advise anyone to follow God blindly without critical thought. That is why you have so many sects/denominations in Christianity.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Calvinist
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7/6/2016 5:09:04 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 4:52:18 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

I would not follow a deity that was wrong. So no, I would not follow one that was only right "most of the time."

Pretty good incentive to claim oneself "perfect" then, yes?
Indeed, perfection does argue for a deity.
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
FaustianJustice
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7/6/2016 5:21:19 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 5:09:04 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 4:52:18 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

I would not follow a deity that was wrong. So no, I would not follow one that was only right "most of the time."

Pretty good incentive to claim oneself "perfect" then, yes?
Indeed, perfection does argue for a deity.

Ah ah, you got that backwards. Please don't accuse others of mincing what you have to say if you are immediately going to do the same.

In this instance, I am alluding to an entity claiming to be perfect. Not perfection as a means to proving a deity.

Couple this with the immediate assertion that whatever said entity does is also perfect, we now have complication, especially when the entity in question engages in behaviors that are clearly not perfect.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Omniverse
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7/6/2016 5:24:48 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 4:29:16 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 11:19:15 AM, Jovian wrote:

Not all crimes are equal in severity. This is obvious through your own examination. Someone who lusts is not performing a sin as equal in severity as someone who rapes. However, both sins have the same punishment, namely, death (Romans 6:23).

Exactly. Hence the justified accusation that Christianity is immoral.

They also can both be forgiven the same way, namely, through Jesus Christ (1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Exactly. Hence a serial rapist who repents on his deathbed and accepts Jesus as his saviour just one second before expiring will get saved, but am exemplary Hindu father of 8 who shuts the door on those pesky Christian missionaries and their absurd theology won't. According to what flavour of Christianity one subscribes to, said father might even burn in Hell for all of Eternity.

Yes, Christianity is deeply immoral.

You can try and argue with me all day long about how unfair or unjust this may be, but you are arguing against the perfect example of justice (Deuteronomy 32:4).

Calvinism, the best mayo there is.
Calvinist
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7/6/2016 5:54:35 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 5:21:19 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Ah ah, you got that backwards. Please don't accuse others of mincing what you have to say if you are immediately going to do the same.

In this instance, I am alluding to an entity claiming to be perfect. Not perfection as a means to proving a deity.
Yes. However, why would there be an incentive for a deity to claim to be perfect? You claimed that there was such an incentive, no? I will directly quote you: "Pretty good incentive to claim oneself 'perfect' then, yes?" Why did you make this statement? You made it in response to what I said, which was: "I would not follow a deity that was wrong. So no, I would not follow one that was only right 'most of the time.'"

You claim that the incentive is there because I am only willing to follow a perfect deity. Therefore, perfection would argue in favor of a deity.

Couple this with the immediate assertion that whatever said entity does is also perfect, we now have complication, especially when the entity in question engages in behaviors that are clearly not perfect.
You would have to prove that the deity I accept has engaged in "behaviors that are clearly not perfect." You have not. I am not sure if you have any intention of doing so, but I would look forward to an imperfect being trying to critique the perfection of God. Is this not fulfilling the stereotypical atheistic role?
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
Calvinist
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7/6/2016 5:54:38 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 5:24:48 PM, Omniverse wrote:

Exactly. Hence the justified accusation that Christianity is immoral.
I would love to know where you get your understanding of morality.

Exactly. Hence a serial rapist who repents on his deathbed and accepts Jesus as his saviour just one second before expiring will get saved, but am exemplary Hindu father of 8 who shuts the door on those pesky Christian missionaries and their absurd theology won't. According to what flavour of Christianity one subscribes to, said father might even burn in Hell for all of Eternity.
It does not matter what the hypothetical serial rapist does on his deathbed. It is what God decides to do. If God wants to grace the person, then there is nothing that the person did to deserve such grace. We are all sinful people. Anyone who does not receive God's grace will receive the just wrath of God. There is no one in Hades who does not deserve it. There will be no one in the burning lake who does not deserve it. Everyone who is saved does not deserve it, as it was God's unconditional grace that saved them. It was not their own works or actions that saved them.
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
Omniverse
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7/6/2016 6:04:37 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 5:54:38 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 5:24:48 PM, Omniverse wrote:

Exactly. Hence the justified accusation that Christianity is immoral.
I would love to know where you get your understanding of morality.

Exactly. Hence a serial rapist who repents on his deathbed and accepts Jesus as his saviour just one second before expiring will get saved, but am exemplary Hindu father of 8 who shuts the door on those pesky Christian missionaries and their absurd theology won't. According to what flavour of Christianity one subscribes to, said father might even burn in Hell for all of Eternity.
It does not matter what the hypothetical serial rapist does on his deathbed. It is what God decides to do. If God wants to grace the person, then there is nothing that the person did to deserve such grace. We are all sinful people. Anyone who does not receive God's grace will receive the just wrath of God. There is no one in Hades who does not deserve it. There will be no one in the burning lake who does not deserve it. Everyone who is saved does not deserve it, as it was God's unconditional grace that saved them. It was not their own works or actions that saved them.

If they do not deserve it , then it can't possibly be called justice. And it's not justice at all when all sinners are treated the same way, regardless of their sins. Proportionality is a principle poured into the Law in all civilized countries.

Guess God is not civilized.

That slight suggestion that morality can only come from a theistic world view.
Stand up comedy material.
Calvinist
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7/6/2016 6:13:53 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 6:04:37 PM, Omniverse wrote:

If they do not deserve it , then it can't possibly be called justice.
How do you figure? Are you not familiar with the atonement at all?

And it's not justice at all when all sinners are treated the same way, regardless of their sins. Proportionality is a principle poured into the Law in all civilized countries.
How is it not justice if all sinners are treated the same way? You can make an assertion, but you might as well just open your mouth and expel air.

Guess God is not civilized.
According to who? Imperfect people with an imperfect sense of justice?

That slight suggestion that morality can only come from a theistic world view.
Stand up comedy material.
I guess you have no idea where you get your morality from. You must be really good at a dodge ball.
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
FaustianJustice
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7/6/2016 6:14:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 5:54:35 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 5:21:19 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Ah ah, you got that backwards. Please don't accuse others of mincing what you have to say if you are immediately going to do the same.

In this instance, I am alluding to an entity claiming to be perfect. Not perfection as a means to proving a deity.
Yes. However, why would there be an incentive for a deity to claim to be perfect?

For He is a jealous god, and wants no others worshiped before Him. Arguably, He wants not others worshipped at all.

You claimed that there was such an incentive, no? I will directly quote you: "Pretty good incentive to claim oneself 'perfect' then, yes?" Why did you make this statement?

The incentive is to gain you as a follower, as you plainly stated you won't worship that which admits its imperfections.

You made it in response to what I said, which was: "I would not follow a deity that was wrong. So no, I would not follow one that was only right 'most of the time.'"

You claim that the incentive is there because I am only willing to follow a perfect deity. Therefore, perfection would argue in favor of a deity.

Couple this with the immediate assertion that whatever said entity does is also perfect, we now have complication, especially when the entity in question engages in behaviors that are clearly not perfect.

You would have to prove that the deity I accept has engaged in "behaviors that are clearly not perfect." You have not. I am not sure if you have any intention of doing so, but I would look forward to an imperfect being trying to critique the perfection of God. Is this not fulfilling the stereotypical atheistic role?

You make it sound like an imperfect being could never be "right". In any case, doing such (highlight behaviors that are not perfect) is pretty easy. Any time God asked for a sacrifice of a follower would be where I would start first. Next, I would state that the Lord is not tempted, however can be prompted to action when it suits Him, this is a contradictory position. I would state also that justice from Him is passed on to multiple generations (sins of the father...). I would also include that there is scripture that refers to the unborn, which were killed en masse during His flood. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, but vengeance is His.

These are not hallmarks of perfection.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Calvinist
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7/6/2016 6:26:15 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 6:14:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

The incentive is to gain you as a follower, as you plainly stated you won't worship that which admits its imperfections.
Therefore, it argues in favor of the deity.

You make it sound like an imperfect being could never be "right".
Oh no, imperfect beings can be right. The writers of the gospels were correct. However, imperfect beings cannot contradict God (a perfect being) and still be correct.

In any case, doing such (highlight behaviors that are not perfect) is pretty easy. Any time God asked for a sacrifice of a follower would be where I would start first.
Okay. Where is the imperfection? The people doing the sacrifices were imperfect, yes. The animals being sacrificed were imperfect, yes. God, however, is not imperfect. Show me how animal sacrifice displays the imperfection of God.

Next, I would state that the Lord is not tempted, however can be prompted to action when it suits Him, this is a contradictory position.
Give an example. I agree that God cannot be tempted, as James 1:13 states. So show me where God is tempted.

I would state also that justice from Him is passed on to multiple generations (sins of the father...).
And? You are not telling me why this is imperfect. Imagine a mechanic told you that your car would not turn on. That is all he told you. Is that not useless information unless he tells you why the car will not turn on?

I would also include that there is scripture that refers to the unborn, which were killed en masse during His flood. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, but vengeance is His.
Where is the imperfection? You are just making statements, but not substantiating them.
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
FaustianJustice
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7/6/2016 6:43:01 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 6:26:15 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 6:14:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

The incentive is to gain you as a follower, as you plainly stated you won't worship that which admits its imperfections.
Therefore, it argues in favor of the deity.

And not specifically perfection, or a perfect deity.

You make it sound like an imperfect being could never be "right".

Oh no, imperfect beings can be right. The writers of the gospels were correct. However, imperfect beings cannot contradict God (a perfect being) and still be correct.

God tell you that?

In any case, doing such (highlight behaviors that are not perfect) is pretty easy. Any time God asked for a sacrifice of a follower would be where I would start first.

Okay. Where is the imperfection?

There is no reason to, its an irrational circumstance. Be it for test, lesson, or otherwise. An omnipotent entity needs nothing of its followers, and an omniscient entity knows which follows are dedicated from the onset.


Next, I would state that the Lord is not tempted, however can be prompted to action when it suits Him, this is a contradictory position.

Give an example. I agree that God cannot be tempted, as James 1:13 states. So show me where God is tempted.

36 At the time for the evening sacrifice, the prophet Elijah went near the altar. "Lord, you are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel," he prayed. "Prove that you are the God of Israel and that I am your servant. Show these people that you commanded me to do all these things. 37 Lord, answer my prayer so these people will know that you, Lord, are God and that you will change their minds."

38 Then fire from the Lord came down and burned the sacrifice, the wood, the stones, and the ground around the altar. It also dried up the water in the ditch. 39 When all the people saw this, they fell down to the ground, crying, "The Lord is God! The Lord is God!"

God was enticed into something in which, currently, apparently, God need not do, nor needed to do before this specific instance. Tempting God to show His might. This was also done with the sticks to snakes thing, along with the other plagues, but for the time being, Elijah will do.


I would state also that justice from Him is passed on to multiple generations (sins of the father...).

And? You are not telling me why this is imperfect. Imagine a mechanic told you that your car would not turn on. That is all he told you. Is that not useless information unless he tells you why the car will not turn on?

Its useless information in general, more so if I buy a new car, and said mechanic keeps telling me -the new car- won't turn on.

I would also include that there is scripture that refers to the unborn, which were killed en masse during His flood. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, but vengeance is His.

Where is the imperfection? You are just making statements, but not substantiating them.

There is no conceivable way for the in utero to have sinned, man.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Jovian
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7/6/2016 6:51:49 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 5:54:38 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 5:24:48 PM, Omniverse wrote:

Exactly. Hence the justified accusation that Christianity is immoral.
I would love to know where you get your understanding of morality.

Exactly. Hence a serial rapist who repents on his deathbed and accepts Jesus as his saviour just one second before expiring will get saved, but am exemplary Hindu father of 8 who shuts the door on those pesky Christian missionaries and their absurd theology won't. According to what flavour of Christianity one subscribes to, said father might even burn in Hell for all of Eternity.
It does not matter what the hypothetical serial rapist does on his deathbed. It is what God decides to do. If God wants to grace the person, then there is nothing that the person did to deserve such grace. We are all sinful people. Anyone who does not receive God's grace will receive the just wrath of God. There is no one in Hades who does not deserve it. There will be no one in the burning lake who does not deserve it. Everyone who is saved does not deserve it, as it was God's unconditional grace that saved them. It was not their own works or actions that saved them.

Seriously, if this happened in real life, would you not object at all? Answer me honestly now, what would you think if we started to condemn people who once drove against red light into Guantanamo Bay? Or if we did the same to people who in their teenage once stole a Snickers? Or said something mean to someone? Or told a lie to someone? (assume that these petty criminals also do not repent for what they did)

This is exactly what happens in your view of Christianity. No punishment scale at all. If you don't want to be a hypocrite, start lobbying for punishing all criminals with life in prison, no matter the crime.
Calvinist
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7/6/2016 7:16:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 6:51:49 PM, Jovian wrote:

Seriously, if this happened in real life, would you not object at all? Answer me honestly now, what would you think if we started to condemn people who once drove against red light into Guantanamo Bay? Or if we did the same to people who in their teenage once stole a Snickers? Or said something mean to someone? Or told a lie to someone? (assume that these petty criminals also do not repent for what they did)
I hate to break it to you, but transgressing a man-made, imperfect, system of law is not the same as transgressing the perfect God of all. The fact that you would even draw the comparison is beyond all reason. You do not seem to object to the fact that God unconditionally forgives his elect no matter what they have done in their life. Why is that? God's love extends to both His grace and His justice. You cannot ignore one and still have a loving God. I embrace the wrath of God as his execution of justice. You can say that this justice is wrong, imperfect, or anything else. However, your view of perfect justice does not hold any water.

This is exactly what happens in your view of Christianity. No punishment scale at all. If you don't want to be a hypocrite, start lobbying for punishing all criminals with life in prison, no matter the crime.
I do not particularly care about an imperfect justice system. No matter how you reform it, there will never be any perfection in it.
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
Calvinist
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7/6/2016 7:16:08 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 6:43:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

And not specifically perfection, or a perfect deity.
So we agree.

Oh no, imperfect beings can be right. The writers of the gospels were correct. However, imperfect beings cannot contradict God (a perfect being) and still be correct.

God tell you that?
Did God tell me that He is perfect? Yes (Psalm 18:30). Did God tell me that all beings are imperfect? Yes (Romans 3:23). Therefore, an imperfect being cannot contradict the perfect being and still be correct.

There is no reason to, its an irrational circumstance. Be it for test, lesson, or otherwise. An omnipotent entity needs nothing of its followers, and an omniscient entity knows which follows are dedicated from the onset.
So you are arguing that God is imperfect because you do not fully understand the laws of the Old Testament?

36 At the time for the evening sacrifice, the prophet Elijah went near the altar. "Lord, you are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel," he prayed. "Prove that you are the God of Israel and that I am your servant. Show these people that you commanded me to do all these things. 37 Lord, answer my prayer so these people will know that you, Lord, are God and that you will change their minds."

38 Then fire from the Lord came down and burned the sacrifice, the wood, the stones, and the ground around the altar. It also dried up the water in the ditch. 39 When all the people saw this, they fell down to the ground, crying, "The Lord is God! The Lord is God!"

God was enticed into something in which, currently, apparently, God need not do, nor needed to do before this specific instance. Tempting God to show His might. This was also done with the sticks to snakes thing, along with the other plagues, but for the time being, Elijah will do.
So you are arguing that Elijah tempted God despite that not being shown anywhere in the text? The only thing I see is what has been shown many times throughout the Bible: God answers prayers. This is not imposing on God's sovereignty.

Its useless information in general, more so if I buy a new car, and said mechanic keeps telling me -the new car- won't turn on.
So you cannot tell me why this proves God to be imperfect?

There is no conceivable way for the in utero to have sinned, man.
Read Ephesians 2:3.
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
VirBinarus
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7/6/2016 7:16:11 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 6:51:49 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 7/6/2016 5:54:38 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 5:24:48 PM, Omniverse wrote:

Exactly. Hence the justified accusation that Christianity is immoral.
I would love to know where you get your understanding of morality.

Exactly. Hence a serial rapist who repents on his deathbed and accepts Jesus as his saviour just one second before expiring will get saved, but am exemplary Hindu father of 8 who shuts the door on those pesky Christian missionaries and their absurd theology won't. According to what flavour of Christianity one subscribes to, said father might even burn in Hell for all of Eternity.
It does not matter what the hypothetical serial rapist does on his deathbed. It is what God decides to do. If God wants to grace the person, then there is nothing that the person did to deserve such grace. We are all sinful people. Anyone who does not receive God's grace will receive the just wrath of God. There is no one in Hades who does not deserve it. There will be no one in the burning lake who does not deserve it. Everyone who is saved does not deserve it, as it was God's unconditional grace that saved them. It was not their own works or actions that saved them.

Seriously, if this happened in real life, would you not object at all? Answer me honestly now, what would you think if we started to condemn people who once drove against red light into Guantanamo Bay? Or if we did the same to people who in their teenage once stole a Snickers? Or said something mean to someone? Or told a lie to someone? (assume that these petty criminals also do not repent for what they did)

This is exactly what happens in your view of Christianity. No punishment scale at all. If you don't want to be a hypocrite, start lobbying for punishing all criminals with life in prison, no matter the crime.

The crime is less lying or murdering, but more just the fact that you are disobeying God. If you are happily disobeying God, then you can go nowhere near him. Hell is just a great place to shut off this desire to disobey him. The thing that makes hell bad is a complete lack of God.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
Jovian
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7/6/2016 7:26:18 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:16:06 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 6:51:49 PM, Jovian wrote:

Seriously, if this happened in real life, would you not object at all? Answer me honestly now, what would you think if we started to condemn people who once drove against red light into Guantanamo Bay? Or if we did the same to people who in their teenage once stole a Snickers? Or said something mean to someone? Or told a lie to someone? (assume that these petty criminals also do not repent for what they did)
I hate to break it to you, but transgressing a man-made, imperfect, system of law is not the same as transgressing the perfect God of all. The fact that you would even draw the comparison is beyond all reason.

And I can just as well call man-made jurisprudence perfect. Which I won't by the way since nothing is perfect (yet).

You do not seem to object to the fact that God unconditionally forgives his elect no matter what they have done in their life. Why is that? God's love extends to both His grace and His justice. You cannot ignore one and still have a loving God. I embrace the wrath of God as his execution of justice. You can say that this justice is wrong, imperfect, or anything else. However, your view of perfect justice does not hold any water.

It is indeed not a perfect system that you are presenting. When someone has done something wrong, he or she shall work upwards the ladder to reinstall their respect again. In real life, someone who has been a bad person could do things to repair the damage he or she has caused. In your religious views though, a person should be forgiven of torturing 50 million children to death only because said person has a sensation in his body saying "I repent"? If I were your god, I would sentence such persons to some kind of working camp before they get off the hook. A camp with a punishment scale of course. As an example, someone who has been in a bar brawl should only be working like 3 months, and Hitler should be working 50 years.

This is exactly what happens in your view of Christianity. No punishment scale at all. If you don't want to be a hypocrite, start lobbying for punishing all criminals with life in prison, no matter the crime.
I do not particularly care about an imperfect justice system. No matter how you reform it, there will never be any perfection in it.

As I said, nothing is perfect (yet). Having the same punishment to petty theft and brutal genocides though, that's the opposite to perfect.
Omniverse
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7/6/2016 7:27:29 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:16:11 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 7/6/2016 6:51:49 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 7/6/2016 5:54:38 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 5:24:48 PM, Omniverse wrote:

Exactly. Hence the justified accusation that Christianity is immoral.
I would love to know where you get your understanding of morality.

Exactly. Hence a serial rapist who repents on his deathbed and accepts Jesus as his saviour just one second before expiring will get saved, but am exemplary Hindu father of 8 who shuts the door on those pesky Christian missionaries and their absurd theology won't. According to what flavour of Christianity one subscribes to, said father might even burn in Hell for all of Eternity.
It does not matter what the hypothetical serial rapist does on his deathbed. It is what God decides to do. If God wants to grace the person, then there is nothing that the person did to deserve such grace. We are all sinful people. Anyone who does not receive God's grace will receive the just wrath of God. There is no one in Hades who does not deserve it. There will be no one in the burning lake who does not deserve it. Everyone who is saved does not deserve it, as it was God's unconditional grace that saved them. It was not their own works or actions that saved them.

Seriously, if this happened in real life, would you not object at all? Answer me honestly now, what would you think if we started to condemn people who once drove against red light into Guantanamo Bay? Or if we did the same to people who in their teenage once stole a Snickers? Or said something mean to someone? Or told a lie to someone? (assume that these petty criminals also do not repent for what they did)

This is exactly what happens in your view of Christianity. No punishment scale at all. If you don't want to be a hypocrite, start lobbying for punishing all criminals with life in prison, no matter the crime.

The crime is less lying or murdering, but more just the fact that you are disobeying God.

Which in turn means that all disobedience, swearing, raping infants, it is all the same.
Got it.

If you are happily disobeying God, then you can go nowhere near him. Hell is just a great place to shut off this desire to disobey him.

How can I be happily disobeying God, If I don't even believe He exists?

I'd love for you Christians to finally reach a consensus on the nature of Hell. Unfortunately, not even having the same text to interpret and 2000 years to interpret it, you still could not reach anything close to unanimity on that.

It just makes you wonder.

The thing that makes hell bad is a complete lack of God.

Isn't God omnipresent?
How then can He be completely absent from hell?
Jovian
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7/6/2016 7:33:01 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:16:11 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 7/6/2016 6:51:49 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 7/6/2016 5:54:38 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 5:24:48 PM, Omniverse wrote:

Exactly. Hence the justified accusation that Christianity is immoral.
I would love to know where you get your understanding of morality.

Exactly. Hence a serial rapist who repents on his deathbed and accepts Jesus as his saviour just one second before expiring will get saved, but am exemplary Hindu father of 8 who shuts the door on those pesky Christian missionaries and their absurd theology won't. According to what flavour of Christianity one subscribes to, said father might even burn in Hell for all of Eternity.
It does not matter what the hypothetical serial rapist does on his deathbed. It is what God decides to do. If God wants to grace the person, then there is nothing that the person did to deserve such grace. We are all sinful people. Anyone who does not receive God's grace will receive the just wrath of God. There is no one in Hades who does not deserve it. There will be no one in the burning lake who does not deserve it. Everyone who is saved does not deserve it, as it was God's unconditional grace that saved them. It was not their own works or actions that saved them.

Seriously, if this happened in real life, would you not object at all? Answer me honestly now, what would you think if we started to condemn people who once drove against red light into Guantanamo Bay? Or if we did the same to people who in their teenage once stole a Snickers? Or said something mean to someone? Or told a lie to someone? (assume that these petty criminals also do not repent for what they did)

This is exactly what happens in your view of Christianity. No punishment scale at all. If you don't want to be a hypocrite, start lobbying for punishing all criminals with life in prison, no matter the crime.

The crime is less lying or murdering, but more just the fact that you are disobeying God. If you are happily disobeying God, then you can go nowhere near him. Hell is just a great place to shut off this desire to disobey him. The thing that makes hell bad is a complete lack of God.

And you're saying there is no relativism in disobeying God? Doesn't a god regard criminals different depending on what damage they have done? Stealing a Snickers bar from a gas station takes away $1 from its owner, something the owner at its height becomes angry at first but chooses to forget if it isn't happening again. Torturing 50 millions of children to death would be causing suffering beyond what you can imagine to said children before they die, and leave their closest and their eyewitnesses forever damaged with mental pain also there beyond what you could imagine.
Calvinist
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7/6/2016 7:33:38 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:26:18 PM, Jovian wrote:

And I can just as well call man-made jurisprudence perfect. Which I won't by the way since nothing is perfect (yet).
You could say that the sky is neon green, but that is meaningless to most people.

It is indeed not a perfect system that you are presenting. When someone has done something wrong, he or she shall work upwards the ladder to reinstall their respect again. In real life, someone who has been a bad person could do things to repair the damage he or she has caused. In your religious views though, a person should be forgiven of torturing 50 million children to death only because said person has a sensation in his body saying "I repent"? If I were your god, I would sentence such persons to some kind of working camp before they get off the hook. A camp with a punishment scale of course. As an example, someone who has been in a bar brawl should only be working like 3 months, and Hitler should be working 50 years.
So you would advocate for God to have conditional love for his elect?

As I said, nothing is perfect (yet). Having the same punishment to petty theft and brutal genocides though, that's the opposite to perfect.
You are making this statement as an imperfect person. Do you not see the inconsistency? Anyways, this will be my last response for a few days as I am going out of town. If you want to continue later then I would be more than willing. God bless.
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
FaustianJustice
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7/6/2016 9:02:24 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 7:16:08 PM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 6:43:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

And not specifically perfection, or a perfect deity.
So we agree.

Oh no, imperfect beings can be right. The writers of the gospels were correct. However, imperfect beings cannot contradict God (a perfect being) and still be correct.

God tell you that?
Did God tell me that He is perfect? Yes (Psalm 18:30). Did God tell me that all beings are imperfect? Yes (Romans 3:23). Therefore, an imperfect being cannot contradict the perfect being and still be correct.

Yes. In the mean time, the perfection of the claimant (God) is suspect, hence the discussion.

There is no reason to, its an irrational circumstance. Be it for test, lesson, or otherwise. An omnipotent entity needs nothing of its followers, and an omniscient entity knows which follows are dedicated from the onset.

So you are arguing that God is imperfect because you do not fully understand the laws of the Old Testament?

Questions are not rebuttals. I have no desire to engage in a "He is right because He says He is right no matter how wrong He might look" diatribe, so please, if that is where you are wanting to take it, save us both the time and say so.

36 At the time for the evening sacrifice, the prophet Elijah went near the altar. "Lord, you are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel," he prayed. "Prove that you are the God of Israel and that I am your servant. Show these people that you commanded me to do all these things. 37 Lord, answer my prayer so these people will know that you, Lord, are God and that you will change their minds."

38 Then fire from the Lord came down and burned the sacrifice, the wood, the stones, and the ground around the altar. It also dried up the water in the ditch. 39 When all the people saw this, they fell down to the ground, crying, "The Lord is God! The Lord is God!"

God was enticed into something in which, currently, apparently, God need not do, nor needed to do before this specific instance. Tempting God to show His might. This was also done with the sticks to snakes thing, along with the other plagues, but for the time being, Elijah will do.

So you are arguing that Elijah tempted God despite that not being shown anywhere in the text? The only thing I see is what has been shown many times throughout the Bible: God answers prayers. This is not imposing on God's sovereignty.

Being directly asked to prove your sovereignty is a challenge to sovereignty which is exactly what happened with Elijah.

Its useless information in general, more so if I buy a new car, and said mechanic keeps telling me -the new car- won't turn on.
So you cannot tell me why this proves God to be imperfect?

Its your analogy, buck-o. Are you dropping it, or are you keeping with it? If I buy a new car, whatever the mechanic might have to say about the old car applies to the old car, not the new one. Claiming the problem with the old car immediately applies to a different new car, or another different new car, and another different new car after that is plainly irrational. I, truthfully, would fire the mechanic.

There is no conceivable way for the in utero to have sinned, man.
Read Ephesians 2:3.

Wholly irrelevant. There is no conceivable way for the in utero to have sinned.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Calvinist
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7/10/2016 12:24:13 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/6/2016 9:02:24 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Questions are not rebuttals. I have no desire to engage in a "He is right because He says He is right no matter how wrong He might look" diatribe, so please, if that is where you are wanting to take it, save us both the time and say so.
This is far from a formal debate. Am I not allowed to ask for clarification? You know my position, which is the position that God is perfect. If you cannot show me that He is imperfect then you are wasting your time.

So you are arguing that Elijah tempted God despite that not being shown anywhere in the text? The only thing I see is what has been shown many times throughout the Bible: God answers prayers. This is not imposing on God's sovereignty.

Being directly asked to prove your sovereignty is a challenge to sovereignty which is exactly what happened with Elijah.
Nope. Elijah prayed to God and God answered his prayer. Does a child challenge his parent's sovereignty when he gets what he asks for? Of course not. If you were not grasping for straws then you would not have provided this example.

Its your analogy, buck-o. Are you dropping it, or are you keeping with it? If I buy a new car, whatever the mechanic might have to say about the old car applies to the old car, not the new one. Claiming the problem with the old car immediately applies to a different new car, or another different new car, and another different new car after that is plainly irrational. I, truthfully, would fire the mechanic.
I am aware. However, you did not address what I said. I am not dropping the analogy, but you have to address it. You stated that God is imperfect in scenario X. You did not provide any evidence that scenario X shows imperfection. I likened it to a mechanic telling you that a car will not turn on, yet refuses to reveal the reason why. You, like the mechanic, have to tell me why and show me.

Wholly irrelevant. There is no conceivable way for the in utero to have sinned.
It is very relevant. I suggest familiarizing yourself with the doctrine of original sin.
Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide, soli Deo gloria.
FaustianJustice
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7/10/2016 2:37:26 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/10/2016 12:24:13 AM, Calvinist wrote:
At 7/6/2016 9:02:24 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Questions are not rebuttals. I have no desire to engage in a "He is right because He says He is right no matter how wrong He might look" diatribe, so please, if that is where you are wanting to take it, save us both the time and say so.
This is far from a formal debate. Am I not allowed to ask for clarification? You know my position, which is the position that God is perfect. If you cannot show me that He is imperfect then you are wasting your time.

It would be a waste of time anyways, you have already put your goal post on wheels and started to move it. By stating that God is perfect, and that me, an imperfect man trying to find fault will never be correct, you have alleviated yourself of any intellectual honesty in the conversation to consider alternative points of view. The worst part is that you have all the subjective interpretation one could need to stay firmly planted on those wheels.

So you are arguing that Elijah tempted God despite that not being shown anywhere in the text? The only thing I see is what has been shown many times throughout the Bible: God answers prayers. This is not imposing on God's sovereignty.

Being directly asked to prove your sovereignty is a challenge to sovereignty which is exactly what happened with Elijah.

Nope.

Case in point to my above demonstration.

Elijah prayed to God and God answered his prayer. Does a child challenge his parent's sovereignty when he gets what he asks for?

When its phrased in such a manner of "Prove to me that you are my parents by..." that is exactly what it is. God doesn't/shouldn't have to prove Himself. "Prove that you are the God of Israel..." I believe is what was uttered. So, does God's sovereignty need to be proven? Is He a genie in a bottle that will show up when called to demonstrate and prove His might to unbelievers? Obviously not. From here you may start your deflections as to why now, or prior to Elijah was some how different when the same "prayer" is no doubt offered up.

Of course not. If you were not grasping for straws then you would not have provided this example.

Its your analogy, buck-o. Are you dropping it, or are you keeping with it? If I buy a new car, whatever the mechanic might have to say about the old car applies to the old car, not the new one. Claiming the problem with the old car immediately applies to a different new car, or another different new car, and another different new car after that is plainly irrational. I, truthfully, would fire the mechanic.

I am aware. However, you did not address what I said. I am not dropping the analogy, but you have to address it. You stated that God is imperfect in scenario X. You did not provide any evidence that scenario X shows imperfection. I likened it to a mechanic telling you that a car will not turn on, yet refuses to reveal the reason why. You, like the mechanic, have to tell me why and show me.

Because its a different car? Especially if, ya know, the new car starts and all after being told by the mechanic "It won't turn on"? Your mechanic said something was wrong with car A. And then Car B. and then car C, etc, all sight unseen, diagnostic not performed, and arguably no reason to take it to the mechanic to begin with. Hell, He even said something was wrong car D, and car D hasn't even been designed yet. But it won't start.

Wholly irrelevant. There is no conceivable way for the in utero to have sinned.

It is very relevant. I suggest familiarizing yourself with the doctrine of original sin.

I would suggest you find Bible verses rather than interpretation post hoc rationalization that alludes to such being always the case, that being find bible verses that we are all immediately conceived in it, rather than "born" into it as the Bible so vehemently in plain text states.

Were I to ask you what sin the in utero committed, do you have an answer? I am gonna go out on a limb and say "No", but, because God is perfect, and original sin is the only explanation, it must be true.

Sound about right?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Amoranemix
Posts: 521
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7/10/2016 8:48:13 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
- Calvinist 4 to Jovian
Not all crimes are equal in severity. This is obvious through your own examination. Someone who lusts is not performing a sin as equal in severity as someone who rapes. However, both sins have the same punishment, namely, death (Romans 6:23). They also can both be forgiven the same way, namely, through Jesus Christ (1 John 2:2; 2 Corinthians 5:21). You can try and argue with me all day long about how unfair or unjust this may be, but you are arguing against the perfect example of justice (Deuteronomy 32:4).
What evidence can you present to support that claim ?
I look forward to an imperfect being trying to support the perfection of an imperfect god.

- FaustianJustice 5
Would you follow a deity that admits it was right most of the time? The God of the Bible gets downright Orwellian if followed blindly with no critical thought.
- Calvinist 6
I would not follow a deity that was wrong. So no, I would not follow one that was only right "most of the time." I would not advise anyone to follow God blindly without critical thought. That is why you have so many sects/denominations in Christianity.
After reading your posts I am tempted to advise you to heed your own advice.

- FaustianJustice 7
Pretty good incentive to claim oneself "perfect" then, yes?
- Calvinist 8
Indeed, perfection does argue for a deity.
Can you prove that ?

- FaustianJustice 9
Ah ah, you got that backwards. Please don't accuse others of mincing what you have to say if you are immediately going to do the same.
In this instance, I am alluding to an entity claiming to be perfect. Not perfection as a means to proving a deity.
- Calvinist 11
Yes. However, why would there be an incentive for a deity to claim to be perfect?[1] You claimed that there was such an incentive, no? I will directly quote you: "Pretty good incentive to claim oneself 'perfect' then, yes?" Why did you make this statement? You made it in response to what I said, which was: "I would not follow a deity that was wrong. So no, I would not follow one that was only right 'most of the time.'"
You claim that the incentive is there because I am only willing to follow a perfect deity. Therefore, perfection would argue in favor of a deity.
[1] The assumption is I think that perfection excludes being wrong some of the time. If the deity claims to be perfect then those gullible enough to believe him are more likely to be inclined to worship him.

- Omniverse 10
Exactly. Hence a serial rapist who repents on his deathbed and accepts Jesus as his saviour just one second before expiring will get saved, but am exemplary Hindu father of 8 who shuts the door on those pesky Christian missionaries and their absurd theology won't. According to what flavour of Christianity one subscribes to, said father might even burn in Hell for all of Eternity.
- Calvinist 12
It does not matter what the hypothetical serial rapist does on his deathbed. It is what God decides to do. If God wants to grace the person, then there is nothing that the person did to deserve such grace.[2] We are all sinful people. Anyone who does not receive God's grace will receive the just wrath of God. There is no one in Hades who does not deserve it. There will be no one in the burning lake who does not deserve it.[3] Everyone who is saved does not deserve it, as it was God's unconditional grace that saved them. It was not their own works or actions that saved them.
[2] Deserves according to who ?
[3] Can you prove that ?

- FaustianJustice 15
The incentive is to gain you as a follower, as you plainly stated you won't worship that which admits its imperfections.
- Calvinist 16
Therefore, it argues in favor of the deity.
How so ?

- Omniverse 18
This is exactly what happens in your view of Christianity. No punishment scale at all. If you don't want to be a hypocrite, start lobbying for punishing all criminals with life in prison, no matter the crime.
- Calvinist 19
I do not particularly care about an imperfect justice system. No matter how you reform it, there will never be any perfection in it.
Right. Why bother improving anything if you can't make it perfect ?

- FaustianJustice 17
God tell you that?
- Calvinist 20
Did God tell me that He is perfect? Yes (Psalm 18:30). Did God tell me that all beings are imperfect? Yes (Romans 3:23). Therefore, an imperfect being cannot contradict the perfect being and still be correct.
That doesn't prevent anyone from contradicting you and being correct.

- VirBinarus 21 to Jovian
The crime is less lying or murdering, but more just the fact that you are disobeying God. If you are happily disobeying God, then you can go nowhere near him. Hell is just a great place to shut off this desire to disobey him. The thing that makes hell bad is a complete lack of God.
What is so bad about the complete lack of God ? Since God kills people on sight (allegedly because sin is allergic to him) it should be a good place.

- FaustianJustice 26
Questions are not rebuttals. I have no desire to engage in a "He is right because He says He is right no matter how wrong He might look" diatribe, so please, if that is where you are wanting to take it, save us both the time and say so.
- Calvinist 27
This is far from a formal debate. Am I not allowed to ask for clarification? You know my position, which is the position that God is perfect.[4] If you cannot show me that He is imperfect then you are wasting your time.
[4] a position I predict you will be unable to prove this millennium.

- FaustianJustice 26
Being directly asked to prove your sovereignty is a challenge to sovereignty which is exactly what happened with Elijah.
- Calvinist 27
Nope. Elijah prayed to God and God answered his prayer. Does a child challenge his parent's sovereignty when he gets what he asks for? Of course not. If you were not grasping for straws then you would not have provided this example.
What evidence is there that God cannot be tempted beside the Bible saying so ?

- FaustianJustice 27
Wholly irrelevant. There is no conceivable way for the in utero to have sinned.
- Calvinist 28
It is very relevant. I suggest familiarizing yourself with the doctrine of original sin.
How can a fetus sin ?
The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/10/2016 12:01:32 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
The reason there is no distinction in the pool of sins is because sin is only of one nature, not separate from one another.... it all falls into the same category....which is to rebel against the original form/shape which is God. Kinda like food, though there is an endless variety it's all in the same category....food, it's of the same nature. But this doesn't mean that God Himself doesn't view some sins as worse than others, it's just a law.
However, if one understands the concept of reaping and sowing (cause and effect) then one understands we never can do anything without harvesting from the seeds we sow. Cause and effect takes care of the distinction because what we reap we sow, now or later.

Also....the false doctrine that we can do whatever we like up until the day we die and then suddenly repent and it's all okay is flat out ignorant.
Matthew 7
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: