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Most historical Christians have been false?

Jovian
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7/7/2016 9:40:36 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
First of all, let's keep this thread civilized.

However, in discussions with theists, then I think everyone have encountered the phenomenon that people have interpreted a holy book wrong. This is often used by the theist when someone brings up a negative part of a religion. IS are not real Muslims, they misinterpreted the Quran. The Crusades were not Christian, they were done by dictators who sought new territories. Henry VIII used the Bible as an excuse for his own greed. The list goes on.

The thing is, the Christian history is pretty much full of things which most 2016 Christians would never allow for any nanosecond. At least American Christians, no matter how conservative these Christians are said to be. As an example, take marital rape. Hasn't that been a tacit given until the 20th century that a woman couldn't have an opinion of whether she wants to have sex or not? I don't think many Christians today would approve of it, let alone connect it with somehow with the Bible.

How about the old laws accepting beating your wife if you're married with her? Weren't those laws also given and not protested against until the 19th/20th century? Same there. Most Christians today would scowl if they heard anyone approving of it, even more if it would be linked somehow with the Bible. Something that probably wasn't done by many people back in the days those laws were matters of course.

Or how about all wars made in the name of Christianity? Same there. Condemned now, given back then. The list could go on and on with laws Christians have been seeing as matters of course in the past, which are condemned today and said to have been done by false Christians misinterpreting the Bible.

Perhaps the old saying that a bystander is equally guilty to what he is bystanding would not be applicable here, since someone in the 1600s confronting the king of his country why he is allowing certain laws would pretty much be seen as also confronting God, and killed on the spot. But I'm quite sure that most people saw these laws as given.

So, after having shown how Christian history is maybe to 99% full of misinterpreting the Bible, what are you saying? Are there actually very few true Christians, or am I somehow fallacious?
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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7/7/2016 1:57:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/7/2016 9:40:36 AM, Jovian wrote:
First of all, let's keep this thread civilized.

However, in discussions with theists, then I think everyone have encountered the phenomenon that people have interpreted a holy book wrong. This is often used by the theist when someone brings up a negative part of a religion. IS are not real Muslims, they misinterpreted the Quran. The Crusades were not Christian, they were done by dictators who sought new territories. Henry VIII used the Bible as an excuse for his own greed. The list goes on.

The thing is, the Christian history is pretty much full of things which most 2016 Christians would never allow for any nanosecond. At least American Christians, no matter how conservative these Christians are said to be. As an example, take marital rape. Hasn't that been a tacit given until the 20th century that a woman couldn't have an opinion of whether she wants to have sex or not? I don't think many Christians today would approve of it, let alone connect it with somehow with the Bible.

How about the old laws accepting beating your wife if you're married with her? Weren't those laws also given and not protested against until the 19th/20th century? Same there. Most Christians today would scowl if they heard anyone approving of it, even more if it would be linked somehow with the Bible. Something that probably wasn't done by many people back in the days those laws were matters of course.

Or how about all wars made in the name of Christianity? Same there. Condemned now, given back then. The list could go on and on with laws Christians have been seeing as matters of course in the past, which are condemned today and said to have been done by false Christians misinterpreting the Bible.

Perhaps the old saying that a bystander is equally guilty to what he is bystanding would not be applicable here, since someone in the 1600s confronting the king of his country why he is allowing certain laws would pretty much be seen as also confronting God, and killed on the spot. But I'm quite sure that most people saw these laws as given.

So, after having shown how Christian history is maybe to 99% full of misinterpreting the Bible, what are you saying? Are there actually very few true Christians, or am I somehow fallacious?

I think there-s a broader issue with Christianity that fatally undermines their aspirations.

1. How is it possible that the one true religion took 15, fifteen centuries, to reach Japan, China and other significant parts of the world? Is there any reason why God, who supposedly is almighty, would depend completely upon human ingenuity for His word and will to be communicated across the globe? It makes no sense.

2. By the same token, why is Christianity so afflicted with sectarianism? Today we have some 33 0000 denominations which collectively would not be able to reach a consensus, even though, for the most part, they claim to derive their theology from the same Bible. The issues that separate them are not minor: God's nature, Christ's nature, Hell's nature, how is salvation attained, eschatology, teleology, etc., etc.,.

In Europe, the divide has been bloody and tenebrous longwinded wars have been fought over these doctrinal diferences. Think of Northern Ireland, for example, where both parties proclaim themselves to be the one and true Christians and their opponents nothing short of apostates of the worst order.

3. The proliferation in Christian sects has increased, as new movements splinter and branch out over increasingly smaller differences. Just to give you an example, Jehovah's Witnesses can already boast off a number of Lilliputian separatist groups such as The Christian Witnesses of Jah, founded by Greg Stafford, a former and prominent JW apologist.

4. In conclusion, Christianity exhibits all the attributes one would expect from an entirely human endeavour. It is no different from, say, Marxism, which also branched out in numerous sub-wigs, Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc., all fighting each other for ideological supremacy, bickering over which was the one and true legitimate heir of Marx's doctrine.

Nothing in the history and present of Christianity suggests that the ALmighty Creator of the Universe is somehow directing or supporting their actions. We find exactly the levels of sectarianism we would expect, the inter-confessional hatred we would expect, the degree of doctrinal differences we would expect in any man-made man-run movement.

What is Christian God supposed to have been doing for the past 20 centuries?
Jovian
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7/7/2016 7:41:34 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/7/2016 1:57:05 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/7/2016 9:40:36 AM, Jovian wrote:
First of all, let's keep this thread civilized.

However, in discussions with theists, then I think everyone have encountered the phenomenon that people have interpreted a holy book wrong. This is often used by the theist when someone brings up a negative part of a religion. IS are not real Muslims, they misinterpreted the Quran. The Crusades were not Christian, they were done by dictators who sought new territories. Henry VIII used the Bible as an excuse for his own greed. The list goes on.

The thing is, the Christian history is pretty much full of things which most 2016 Christians would never allow for any nanosecond. At least American Christians, no matter how conservative these Christians are said to be. As an example, take marital rape. Hasn't that been a tacit given until the 20th century that a woman couldn't have an opinion of whether she wants to have sex or not? I don't think many Christians today would approve of it, let alone connect it with somehow with the Bible.

How about the old laws accepting beating your wife if you're married with her? Weren't those laws also given and not protested against until the 19th/20th century? Same there. Most Christians today would scowl if they heard anyone approving of it, even more if it would be linked somehow with the Bible. Something that probably wasn't done by many people back in the days those laws were matters of course.

Or how about all wars made in the name of Christianity? Same there. Condemned now, given back then. The list could go on and on with laws Christians have been seeing as matters of course in the past, which are condemned today and said to have been done by false Christians misinterpreting the Bible.

Perhaps the old saying that a bystander is equally guilty to what he is bystanding would not be applicable here, since someone in the 1600s confronting the king of his country why he is allowing certain laws would pretty much be seen as also confronting God, and killed on the spot. But I'm quite sure that most people saw these laws as given.

So, after having shown how Christian history is maybe to 99% full of misinterpreting the Bible, what are you saying? Are there actually very few true Christians, or am I somehow fallacious?

I think there-s a broader issue with Christianity that fatally undermines their aspirations.

1. How is it possible that the one true religion took 15, fifteen centuries, to reach Japan, China and other significant parts of the world? Is there any reason why God, who supposedly is almighty, would depend completely upon human ingenuity for His word and will to be communicated across the globe? It makes no sense.

2. By the same token, why is Christianity so afflicted with sectarianism? Today we have some 33 0000 denominations which collectively would not be able to reach a consensus, even though, for the most part, they claim to derive their theology from the same Bible. The issues that separate them are not minor: God's nature, Christ's nature, Hell's nature, how is salvation attained, eschatology, teleology, etc., etc.,.

In Europe, the divide has been bloody and tenebrous longwinded wars have been fought over these doctrinal diferences. Think of Northern Ireland, for example, where both parties proclaim themselves to be the one and true Christians and their opponents nothing short of apostates of the worst order.

3. The proliferation in Christian sects has increased, as new movements splinter and branch out over increasingly smaller differences. Just to give you an example, Jehovah's Witnesses can already boast off a number of Lilliputian separatist groups such as The Christian Witnesses of Jah, founded by Greg Stafford, a former and prominent JW apologist.

4. In conclusion, Christianity exhibits all the attributes one would expect from an entirely human endeavour. It is no different from, say, Marxism, which also branched out in numerous sub-wigs, Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc., all fighting each other for ideological supremacy, bickering over which was the one and true legitimate heir of Marx's doctrine.

Nothing in the history and present of Christianity suggests that the ALmighty Creator of the Universe is somehow directing or supporting their actions. We find exactly the levels of sectarianism we would expect, the inter-confessional hatred we would expect, the degree of doctrinal differences we would expect in any man-made man-run movement.

What is Christian God supposed to have been doing for the past 20 centuries?

The topic is not god, the topic is that very few Christians through the years have been true Christians.
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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7/7/2016 9:48:00 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/7/2016 7:41:34 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 7/7/2016 1:57:05 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/7/2016 9:40:36 AM, Jovian wrote:
First of all, let's keep this thread civilized.

However, in discussions with theists, then I think everyone have encountered the phenomenon that people have interpreted a holy book wrong. This is often used by the theist when someone brings up a negative part of a religion. IS are not real Muslims, they misinterpreted the Quran. The Crusades were not Christian, they were done by dictators who sought new territories. Henry VIII used the Bible as an excuse for his own greed. The list goes on.

The thing is, the Christian history is pretty much full of things which most 2016 Christians would never allow for any nanosecond. At least American Christians, no matter how conservative these Christians are said to be. As an example, take marital rape. Hasn't that been a tacit given until the 20th century that a woman couldn't have an opinion of whether she wants to have sex or not? I don't think many Christians today would approve of it, let alone connect it with somehow with the Bible.

How about the old laws accepting beating your wife if you're married with her? Weren't those laws also given and not protested against until the 19th/20th century? Same there. Most Christians today would scowl if they heard anyone approving of it, even more if it would be linked somehow with the Bible. Something that probably wasn't done by many people back in the days those laws were matters of course.

Or how about all wars made in the name of Christianity? Same there. Condemned now, given back then. The list could go on and on with laws Christians have been seeing as matters of course in the past, which are condemned today and said to have been done by false Christians misinterpreting the Bible.

Perhaps the old saying that a bystander is equally guilty to what he is bystanding would not be applicable here, since someone in the 1600s confronting the king of his country why he is allowing certain laws would pretty much be seen as also confronting God, and killed on the spot. But I'm quite sure that most people saw these laws as given.

So, after having shown how Christian history is maybe to 99% full of misinterpreting the Bible, what are you saying? Are there actually very few true Christians, or am I somehow fallacious?

I think there-s a broader issue with Christianity that fatally undermines their aspirations.

1. How is it possible that the one true religion took 15, fifteen centuries, to reach Japan, China and other significant parts of the world? Is there any reason why God, who supposedly is almighty, would depend completely upon human ingenuity for His word and will to be communicated across the globe? It makes no sense.

2. By the same token, why is Christianity so afflicted with sectarianism? Today we have some 33 0000 denominations which collectively would not be able to reach a consensus, even though, for the most part, they claim to derive their theology from the same Bible. The issues that separate them are not minor: God's nature, Christ's nature, Hell's nature, how is salvation attained, eschatology, teleology, etc., etc.,.

In Europe, the divide has been bloody and tenebrous longwinded wars have been fought over these doctrinal diferences. Think of Northern Ireland, for example, where both parties proclaim themselves to be the one and true Christians and their opponents nothing short of apostates of the worst order.

3. The proliferation in Christian sects has increased, as new movements splinter and branch out over increasingly smaller differences. Just to give you an example, Jehovah's Witnesses can already boast off a number of Lilliputian separatist groups such as The Christian Witnesses of Jah, founded by Greg Stafford, a former and prominent JW apologist.

4. In conclusion, Christianity exhibits all the attributes one would expect from an entirely human endeavour. It is no different from, say, Marxism, which also branched out in numerous sub-wigs, Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc., all fighting each other for ideological supremacy, bickering over which was the one and true legitimate heir of Marx's doctrine.

Nothing in the history and present of Christianity suggests that the ALmighty Creator of the Universe is somehow directing or supporting their actions. We find exactly the levels of sectarianism we would expect, the inter-confessional hatred we would expect, the degree of doctrinal differences we would expect in any man-made man-run movement.

What is Christian God supposed to have been doing for the past 20 centuries?

The topic is not god, the topic is that very few Christians through the years have been true Christians.

Consider this verse:

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

If you claim few historical Christians were True Christians then you are burdened with the questions why God attracted so few true believers. I think that is even more problematic.
Jovian
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7/7/2016 10:14:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/7/2016 9:48:00 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/7/2016 7:41:34 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 7/7/2016 1:57:05 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/7/2016 9:40:36 AM, Jovian wrote:
First of all, let's keep this thread civilized.

However, in discussions with theists, then I think everyone have encountered the phenomenon that people have interpreted a holy book wrong. This is often used by the theist when someone brings up a negative part of a religion. IS are not real Muslims, they misinterpreted the Quran. The Crusades were not Christian, they were done by dictators who sought new territories. Henry VIII used the Bible as an excuse for his own greed. The list goes on.

The thing is, the Christian history is pretty much full of things which most 2016 Christians would never allow for any nanosecond. At least American Christians, no matter how conservative these Christians are said to be. As an example, take marital rape. Hasn't that been a tacit given until the 20th century that a woman couldn't have an opinion of whether she wants to have sex or not? I don't think many Christians today would approve of it, let alone connect it with somehow with the Bible.

How about the old laws accepting beating your wife if you're married with her? Weren't those laws also given and not protested against until the 19th/20th century? Same there. Most Christians today would scowl if they heard anyone approving of it, even more if it would be linked somehow with the Bible. Something that probably wasn't done by many people back in the days those laws were matters of course.

Or how about all wars made in the name of Christianity? Same there. Condemned now, given back then. The list could go on and on with laws Christians have been seeing as matters of course in the past, which are condemned today and said to have been done by false Christians misinterpreting the Bible.

Perhaps the old saying that a bystander is equally guilty to what he is bystanding would not be applicable here, since someone in the 1600s confronting the king of his country why he is allowing certain laws would pretty much be seen as also confronting God, and killed on the spot. But I'm quite sure that most people saw these laws as given.

So, after having shown how Christian history is maybe to 99% full of misinterpreting the Bible, what are you saying? Are there actually very few true Christians, or am I somehow fallacious?

I think there-s a broader issue with Christianity that fatally undermines their aspirations.

1. How is it possible that the one true religion took 15, fifteen centuries, to reach Japan, China and other significant parts of the world? Is there any reason why God, who supposedly is almighty, would depend completely upon human ingenuity for His word and will to be communicated across the globe? It makes no sense.

2. By the same token, why is Christianity so afflicted with sectarianism? Today we have some 33 0000 denominations which collectively would not be able to reach a consensus, even though, for the most part, they claim to derive their theology from the same Bible. The issues that separate them are not minor: God's nature, Christ's nature, Hell's nature, how is salvation attained, eschatology, teleology, etc., etc.,.

In Europe, the divide has been bloody and tenebrous longwinded wars have been fought over these doctrinal diferences. Think of Northern Ireland, for example, where both parties proclaim themselves to be the one and true Christians and their opponents nothing short of apostates of the worst order.

3. The proliferation in Christian sects has increased, as new movements splinter and branch out over increasingly smaller differences. Just to give you an example, Jehovah's Witnesses can already boast off a number of Lilliputian separatist groups such as The Christian Witnesses of Jah, founded by Greg Stafford, a former and prominent JW apologist.

4. In conclusion, Christianity exhibits all the attributes one would expect from an entirely human endeavour. It is no different from, say, Marxism, which also branched out in numerous sub-wigs, Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc., all fighting each other for ideological supremacy, bickering over which was the one and true legitimate heir of Marx's doctrine.

Nothing in the history and present of Christianity suggests that the ALmighty Creator of the Universe is somehow directing or supporting their actions. We find exactly the levels of sectarianism we would expect, the inter-confessional hatred we would expect, the degree of doctrinal differences we would expect in any man-made man-run movement.

What is Christian God supposed to have been doing for the past 20 centuries?

The topic is not god, the topic is that very few Christians through the years have been true Christians.

Consider this verse:

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

If you claim few historical Christians were True Christians then you are burdened with the questions why God attracted so few true believers. I think that is even more problematic.

He gives them free will to test them apparently. And apparently most of them have failed brutally, you'll see why in OP. And if not, maybe God actually approves of beating your wife and leave her without any opinion of when she wants to have sex?
SpiritandTruth
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7/8/2016 3:12:44 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
All Christians are false, this is a foundation principle of the faith.

God is The One who saves. God is The Truth.

As it is written,

" Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."

It is also written,

" "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" "

It is also written,

"it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one"s praise will come from God."

It is also written,

"My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness."
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Jovian
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7/8/2016 10:49:42 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 3:12:44 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
All Christians are false, this is a foundation principle of the faith.

God is The One who saves. God is The Truth.

But there are people which he does not save. These are false. The question is, how many in the past has he sent to condemnation? My point is, that must be extremely many of them. Either that, or maybe those things 2016 Christians say are bad maybe are seen as good by God.
SpiritandTruth
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7/11/2016 10:11:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 10:49:42 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 7/8/2016 3:12:44 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
All Christians are false, this is a foundation principle of the faith.

God is The One who saves. God is The Truth.

But there are people which he does not save. These are false. The question is, how many in the past has he sent to condemnation? My point is, that must be extremely many of them. Either that, or maybe those things 2016 Christians say are bad maybe are seen as good by God.

If "Hell is reserved for the devil and his angels", and that God is "not willing that any should perish", it becomes a matter of accepting forgiveness and willingly making the choice to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

All fall short of the glory of God. Technically we all deserve death.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Jovian
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7/12/2016 11:37:10 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 10:11:52 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 7/8/2016 10:49:42 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 7/8/2016 3:12:44 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
All Christians are false, this is a foundation principle of the faith.

God is The One who saves. God is The Truth.

But there are people which he does not save. These are false. The question is, how many in the past has he sent to condemnation? My point is, that must be extremely many of them. Either that, or maybe those things 2016 Christians say are bad maybe are seen as good by God.

If "Hell is reserved for the devil and his angels", and that God is "not willing that any should perish", it becomes a matter of accepting forgiveness and willingly making the choice to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

You are going off topic. The topic is if most Christians have gone to hell until now. There must be some Christian scholar or someone who have answered that question. So I won't accept any beating around the bush.

All fall short of the glory of God. Technically we all deserve death.

Are you bringing forth the claim of original sin? Show me where the Bible says this.
bigotry
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7/12/2016 3:58:55 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/7/2016 9:40:36 AM, Jovian wrote:
First of all, let's keep this thread civilized.

However, in discussions with theists, then I think everyone have encountered the phenomenon that people have interpreted a holy book wrong. This is often used by the theist when someone brings up a negative part of a religion. IS are not real Muslims, they misinterpreted the Quran. The Crusades were not Christian, they were done by dictators who sought new territories. Henry VIII used the Bible as an excuse for his own greed. The list goes on.

The thing is, the Christian history is pretty much full of things which most 2016 Christians would never allow for any nanosecond. At least American Christians, no matter how conservative these Christians are said to be. As an example, take marital rape. Hasn't that been a tacit given until the 20th century that a woman couldn't have an opinion of whether she wants to have sex or not? I don't think many Christians today would approve of it, let alone connect it with somehow with the Bible.

How about the old laws accepting beating your wife if you're married with her? Weren't those laws also given and not protested against until the 19th/20th century? Same there. Most Christians today would scowl if they heard anyone approving of it, even more if it would be linked somehow with the Bible. Something that probably wasn't done by many people back in the days those laws were matters of course.

Or how about all wars made in the name of Christianity? Same there. Condemned now, given back then. The list could go on and on with laws Christians have been seeing as matters of course in the past, which are condemned today and said to have been done by false Christians misinterpreting the Bible.

Perhaps the old saying that a bystander is equally guilty to what he is bystanding would not be applicable here, since someone in the 1600s confronting the king of his country why he is allowing certain laws would pretty much be seen as also confronting God, and killed on the spot. But I'm quite sure that most people saw these laws as given.

So, after having shown how Christian history is maybe to 99% full of misinterpreting the Bible, what are you saying? Are there actually very few true Christians, or am I somehow fallacious?
Thought Id take this up. If you can show that theocracies responsible for interpreting the bible at various times were in line with the same interpretation understood at the time various biblical commands were given you could have an argument. Otherwise your just going to run into the same problem the Pharisees had with Jesus time and time again.
Jovian
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7/12/2016 5:43:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 3:58:55 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/7/2016 9:40:36 AM, Jovian wrote:
First of all, let's keep this thread civilized.

However, in discussions with theists, then I think everyone have encountered the phenomenon that people have interpreted a holy book wrong. This is often used by the theist when someone brings up a negative part of a religion. IS are not real Muslims, they misinterpreted the Quran. The Crusades were not Christian, they were done by dictators who sought new territories. Henry VIII used the Bible as an excuse for his own greed. The list goes on.

The thing is, the Christian history is pretty much full of things which most 2016 Christians would never allow for any nanosecond. At least American Christians, no matter how conservative these Christians are said to be. As an example, take marital rape. Hasn't that been a tacit given until the 20th century that a woman couldn't have an opinion of whether she wants to have sex or not? I don't think many Christians today would approve of it, let alone connect it with somehow with the Bible.

How about the old laws accepting beating your wife if you're married with her? Weren't those laws also given and not protested against until the 19th/20th century? Same there. Most Christians today would scowl if they heard anyone approving of it, even more if it would be linked somehow with the Bible. Something that probably wasn't done by many people back in the days those laws were matters of course.

Or how about all wars made in the name of Christianity? Same there. Condemned now, given back then. The list could go on and on with laws Christians have been seeing as matters of course in the past, which are condemned today and said to have been done by false Christians misinterpreting the Bible.

Perhaps the old saying that a bystander is equally guilty to what he is bystanding would not be applicable here, since someone in the 1600s confronting the king of his country why he is allowing certain laws would pretty much be seen as also confronting God, and killed on the spot. But I'm quite sure that most people saw these laws as given.

So, after having shown how Christian history is maybe to 99% full of misinterpreting the Bible, what are you saying? Are there actually very few true Christians, or am I somehow fallacious?
Thought Id take this up. If you can show that theocracies responsible for interpreting the bible at various times were in line with the same interpretation understood at the time various biblical commands were given you could have an argument. Otherwise your just going to run into the same problem the Pharisees had with Jesus time and time again.

That's true that I have to do this. But same goes for those interpreting the Bible today. The common argument is that people with power have interpreted the Bible for their own interests. For example the Popes during the Crusades, because they wanted new territories. Same could also be said today. That the church in liberal countries are interpreting the Bible as non-hostile against homosexuals because said people want tolerance of homosexuality themselves. I am not familiar with dialogue between the Pharisees and Jesus.
bigotry
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7/12/2016 6:05:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 5:43:44 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 7/12/2016 3:58:55 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/7/2016 9:40:36 AM, Jovian wrote:
First of all, let's keep this thread civilized.

However, in discussions with theists, then I think everyone have encountered the phenomenon that people have interpreted a holy book wrong. This is often used by the theist when someone brings up a negative part of a religion. IS are not real Muslims, they misinterpreted the Quran. The Crusades were not Christian, they were done by dictators who sought new territories. Henry VIII used the Bible as an excuse for his own greed. The list goes on.

The thing is, the Christian history is pretty much full of things which most 2016 Christians would never allow for any nanosecond. At least American Christians, no matter how conservative these Christians are said to be. As an example, take marital rape. Hasn't that been a tacit given until the 20th century that a woman couldn't have an opinion of whether she wants to have sex or not? I don't think many Christians today would approve of it, let alone connect it with somehow with the Bible.

How about the old laws accepting beating your wife if you're married with her? Weren't those laws also given and not protested against until the 19th/20th century? Same there. Most Christians today would scowl if they heard anyone approving of it, even more if it would be linked somehow with the Bible. Something that probably wasn't done by many people back in the days those laws were matters of course.

Or how about all wars made in the name of Christianity? Same there. Condemned now, given back then. The list could go on and on with laws Christians have been seeing as matters of course in the past, which are condemned today and said to have been done by false Christians misinterpreting the Bible.

Perhaps the old saying that a bystander is equally guilty to what he is bystanding would not be applicable here, since someone in the 1600s confronting the king of his country why he is allowing certain laws would pretty much be seen as also confronting God, and killed on the spot. But I'm quite sure that most people saw these laws as given.

So, after having shown how Christian history is maybe to 99% full of misinterpreting the Bible, what are you saying? Are there actually very few true Christians, or am I somehow fallacious?
Thought Id take this up. If you can show that theocracies responsible for interpreting the bible at various times were in line with the same interpretation understood at the time various biblical commands were given you could have an argument. Otherwise your just going to run into the same problem the Pharisees had with Jesus time and time again.

That's true that I have to do this. But same goes for those interpreting the Bible today. The common argument is that people with power have interpreted the Bible for their own interests. For example the Popes during the Crusades, because they wanted new territories. Same could also be said today. That the church in liberal countries are interpreting the Bible as non-hostile against homosexuals because said people want tolerance of homosexuality themselves. I am not familiar with dialogue between the Pharisees and Jesus.
Well your 100% correct there. But I must point out there is little difference between something like the crusades and say the rise of the ming dynasty in which mongol authority was sytematically kicked out of china. The only difference really being the religious context of the crusades. Islam was spread by the sword but lets even take religion out of it. Arabians invaded and subdued the populations up through north africa into spain and then of course jerusalem. Now the power aka european that held influence in these areas makes a move to try and get these territories back which largely fails actually. Its no different than america trying to keep its influence in the arab world after various rebellions kick them out. What anyone is talking about in war are power and influence. It just happens the power and influence in those days were theocratic. For the most part though much hasnt really changed in that dynamic.

As to Jesus interaction with the pharasees it generally went in the way of Jesus scolding them for not knowing their scriptures and adopting perverse teachings in the interem. He was constantly becomming annoyed with the lack of attention the Pharisees and sadducees paid attention to scripture that at a few points he directly said " Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?" mark 12:24.
These were 2 ruling religious sects at the time comparable to protestants and catholics. They were supposed to be responsible spiritual leaders in that day of the children of Israel who Jesus came back to as their messiah. It was so bad that they hatched the plan to get him crucified because he was causing much trouble in the area constantly showing these "elders" in error of understanding and just flat out undermining their authority and power they held. I think this is largely how God sees the church today and woe to it upon His return.
SpiritandTruth
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7/13/2016 2:39:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 11:37:10 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 7/11/2016 10:11:52 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 7/8/2016 10:49:42 AM, Jovian wrote:
At 7/8/2016 3:12:44 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
All Christians are false, this is a foundation principle of the faith.

God is The One who saves. God is The Truth.

But there are people which he does not save. These are false. The question is, how many in the past has he sent to condemnation? My point is, that must be extremely many of them. Either that, or maybe those things 2016 Christians say are bad maybe are seen as good by God.

If "Hell is reserved for the devil and his angels", and that God is "not willing that any should perish", it becomes a matter of accepting forgiveness and willingly making the choice to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

You are going off topic. The topic is if most Christians have gone to hell until now. There must be some Christian scholar or someone who have answered that question. So I won't accept any beating around the bush.

All fall short of the glory of God. Technically we all deserve death.

Are you bringing forth the claim of original sin? Show me where the Bible says this.

It is written "The wages of sin is death", and "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

We are created beings, and it is integral for us to acknowledge our sin in order to be a disciple of Truth. The reality we perceive is illusory, it is creation. It is reality, but not The Ultimate Reality. This can be independently verified by your experience. The only ones who can't accept this are those who are full of pride, and well, pride is the sin of the devil.

It is written, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast"

Faith is a gift from God, and the faith is what saves. If you believe in The Ultimate Reality, if you have realized God, Salvation and the last day of resurrection are witnessed. It is a surety. All this can be known by contemplating that name, "The Ultimate Reality", and what it means. Idolaters will corrupt the meaning, preserving the letter but removing the spirit. People will make an idol out of the pronunciation, and then the meaning will be naturally lost as Chinese pronounce the name the way it is pronounced in English. The meaning is lost. The New Testament teaches all of this stuff.

The Holiest Name, The Spirit, it is Salvation. The Way, The Truth, The Light. That is our God, and that is Our Salvation, and we can go to the grave having peace with this realization.

The devils die, but God lives on, and when we see how as Christ said, "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,