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Qur'an and Sahih Bukhari

spiritislife
Posts: 94
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1/7/2011 1:56:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hello Mirza,

Sorry about the delay. It's that time of year when we celebrate the Birth of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will." (Luke2:14)

Ok. First contradiction.."Does Allah have a shin, leg, hands or feet??"

The Quran states:

006.103
YUSUFALI: No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.

PICKTHAL: Vision comprehendeth Him not, but He comprehendeth (all) vision. He is the Subtile, the Aware.

Sahih Bukhari Vol9, Book 93, No.532s states:

"...Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. "

Volume 8, Book 78, Number 654 (Narrated Anas bin Malik) states:

The Prophet said, "The Hell Fire will keep on saying: 'Are there anymore (people to come)?' Till the Lord of Power and Honor will put His Foot over it and then it will say, 'Qat! Qat! (sufficient! sufficient!) by Your Power and Honor. And its various sides will come close to each other (i.e., it will contract). "

Conclusion: If 'Allah' is not a human being but unseen and above the heavens, then 'Allah' cannot have physical body parts like that of a human being or of an animal. Therefore, allah cannot ' uncover his shin' without grossly contradicting himself and the Quran. Allah cannot 'put his foot over the fire of hell' without contradicting the idea of an 'incomprehensible, unseen' god.

Muslims say: "There is nothing like unto Allah in all of his creation". But Allah's 'shin' is not apart or unique from creation at all. Keep in mind, these accounts in this Hadith are NOT metaphors but are talking about actual events that either have or will take place.

I have used the links YOU have provided in your first post for the Quran and Bukhari passages I cited here.

God bless.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/7/2011 2:08:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 1:56:53 PM, spiritislife wrote:

If it's not the quran... you're not gonna win Any argument..

and... If it is the quran... the problems are all about Context/misleading interpretations that non-muslims maliciously spread about.

Right Mirza!?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/7/2011 3:35:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 1:56:53 PM, spiritislife wrote:
Hello Mirza,
Greetings.

Sorry about the delay. It's that time of year when we celebrate the Birth of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will." (Luke2:14)
Fine, another thing you do which your holy book doesn't tell you to do.

Ok. First contradiction.."Does Allah have a shin, leg, hands or feet??"
Let's see...

The Quran states:

006.103
YUSUFALI: No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.
Indeed.

PICKTHAL: Vision comprehendeth Him not, but He comprehendeth (all) vision. He is the Subtile, the Aware.
Yes. Also, nobody can see God on his planet. We move on...

Sahih Bukhari Vol9, Book 93, No.532s states:

"...Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. "
Hereafter, not this world.

Volume 8, Book 78, Number 654 (Narrated Anas bin Malik) states:

The Prophet said, "The Hell Fire will keep on saying: 'Are there anymore (people to come)?' Till the Lord of Power and Honor will put His Foot over it and then it will say, 'Qat! Qat! (sufficient! sufficient!) by Your Power and Honor. And its various sides will come close to each other (i.e., it will contract). "
The Hereafter. Why are you comparing two different cases of God being seen and unseen? If Source A says God will be seen at Location X, but not Location Y, then where's the contradiction?

Conclusion: If 'Allah' is not a human being but unseen and above the heavens, then 'Allah' cannot have physical body parts like that of a human being or of an animal.
God is unseen to humans in this life. Islam speaks of this life, which is a test, and the Hereafter, the result of our test in this world. No human can see God on this life of theirs, i.e., the worldly life. That is what the Qur'an says. However, God can be seen by humans in the Hereafter, if they are those of pious, believing hearts. You are putting side to side two different scenarios and saying they contradict each other.

Therefore, allah cannot ' uncover his shin' without grossly contradicting himself and the Quran.
The Qur'an states, on various occasions, that those who will receive their book of written deeds in their right hand (i.e., the Muslims) will see God with their own eyes in the Hereafter, as one of the greatest rewards. That is not in this world.

Allah cannot 'put his foot over the fire of hell' without contradicting the idea of an 'incomprehensible, unseen' god.
Something being as indicated by a specific description does not mean that we have to compare the words to anything specific. Human legs are different to spider legs. God's form is different to our form, something we can't imagine now, but it doesn't mean that you can't say that God has a form.

Muslims say: "There is nothing like unto Allah in all of his creation". But Allah's 'shin' is not apart or unique from creation at all.
How do you know? Where do you find a description or depiction of God by Muslims? There are no real pictures of God at all.

Keep in mind, these accounts in this Hadith are NOT metaphors but are talking about actual events that either have or will take place.
Yes.

I have used the links YOU have provided in your first post for the Quran and Bukhari passages I cited here.
Yes. Next time, please verify your sources. If you say that the Qur'an contradicts a hadith, you need to know what the Qur'an says. It states that Allah will not be seen in this world, but He will be seen by righteous people in the Hereafter. All the hadith you cited are speaking of the Hereafter, not this world.

God bless.
Amen.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/7/2011 3:38:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 3:35:56 PM, Mirza wrote:
How do you know? Where do you find a description or depiction of God by Muslims? There are no real pictures of God at all.
That is a description of the specifics that you are talking about, which are like those of humans.
spiritislife
Posts: 94
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1/8/2011 11:09:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 3:35:56 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/7/2011 1:56:53 PM, spiritislife wrote:


Fine, another thing you do which your holy book doesn't tell you to do.

There are many things Muslims do which is not in their book. Didn't you ever wish someone you loved a Happy Birthday? That's what I do on Christmas. Plus, not all Christians are 'Bible alone" Protestants, as many Muslims assume. No book can be the sole rule of faith of a true religion because of the many subjective (and conflicting) interpretations which will inevitably arise amongst its followers. Islam is no exception: with over 72 different sects, it is divided and disunited - like Christian Protestantism.

Who is the final Authority over the meaning of any given Koranic passage? You? Me? Your friend? A scholar? How do you know your interpretation is correct and the one 'Allah' and your Prophet intended, and not someone else's?

Shias, Sunnites, and many other sects entirely disagree with each other on this whole "Does Allah have a shin and other body parts?" debate/contradiction. Who is right?
spiritislife
Posts: 94
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1/8/2011 11:46:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 3:35:56 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/7/2011 1:56:53 PM, spiritislife wrote:
Hello Mirza,
Greetings.

Sahih Bukhari Vol9, Book 93, No.532s states:

"...Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. "

Hereafter, not this world.

This Hadith is speaking about events that will occur on the Day of Judgment or Resurrection. All Islamic scholars I've checked believe that the Day of Judgment will be an actual physical event that will occur here on earth. People will be gathered together on that day (Jews, Christians, idolaters, Believers) and 'Allah' will uncover his 'shin' as a 'sign by which every believer will recognize him". Then after this shin manifestation He will send people to either hell or believers into paradise, when Muhammad intercedes for them. It's in the Hadith.

Bukhari V 9, Bk 93, No 532s says: "We said, O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection? Do you have any difficulty seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?"

But even if you do say 'Allah' has something like a 'shin', hands, feet, face, and other body parts in the hereafter and not here, it is still a gross contradiction of the Koran (not just I, but many Muslims think so too!). Either way, there is still a major contradiction.

spiritislife
Posts: 94
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1/8/2011 12:06:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Volume 8, Book 78, Number 654 (Narrated Anas bin Malik) states:

The Prophet said, "The Hell Fire will keep on saying: 'Are there anymore (people to come)?' Till the Lord of Power and Honor will put His Foot over it and then it will say, 'Qat! Qat! (sufficient! sufficient!) by Your Power and Honor. And its various sides will come close to each other (i.e., it will contract). "
The Hereafter.

Agreed. This Hadith does describe 'Allah' in Hell while torturing his creatures and stomping on hellfire with his foot. Nice scenario for an incomprehensible god. Question: does 'Allah' live in hell or does he just have a long foot?
spiritislife
Posts: 94
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1/8/2011 1:15:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 3:35:56 PM, Mirza wrote:

The Hereafter. Why are you comparing two different cases of God being seen and unseen? If Source A says God will be seen at Location X, but not Location Y, then where's the contradiction?

This is not about the 'seen' or 'unseen', nor does Surah 6:103 say that we will only see god in the hereafter. That is your interpretation. It speaks about vision 'grasping' or 'comprehending God both now and in the hereafter. Seeing something with the eyes and 'grasping' or comprehending its essence or being are two different things. The eyes are just parts and cannot grasp or comprehend anything without the intellect. So this surah is not talking about mere sight, but about the infinite incomprehensible being of 'Allah'.

If Allah does possess form attributes that can be likened to physical body parts such as feet, hands, legs and a face, then he can be comprehended - thus contradicting Quran 6:103.

If Source A says God will be seen at Location X, but not Location Y, then where's the contradiction?:

Again, this is your interpretation of surah 6:103 - so as to make these two conflicting sources (Quran and Hadith) come into harmony with one another. 'Source A' does not say anywhere that God will be seen only in the hereafter.

By the way, 'Allah also has a 'face' in Sahih Bukhari volume 9, Book 93 number 532c. Allah will 'shake hands' in another Hadth and will 'hold the world' in Bukhari 6/60/336. .

So let's see what we do know about Allah's appearance so far...

According to Islamic Hadith and Quran, Allah is truly an anthropomorphic god (like that of humans). Allah's form is like that of a human being with arms, legs, a hand, face, even eyes and fingers. He, also possesses human traits (Enoch 'walked' with Allah; Tabari 19/56-57) and 'sits on a throne' and has a foot in hell. ( I wonder if his throne is in hell too?).