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Muslims: The Apostle Paul

SpiritandTruth
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7/8/2016 1:17:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Muslims of DDO, peace be with you! I have much respect for Mohammed as being an apostle of God, and have little doubt that The Qur'an is inspired. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I have no reason to change. I believe that The Qur'an respects me on this, and God will as well on the last day. I know that our scriptures testify of the same God, The Ultimate Reality.

I have noticed that it seems to be a popular opinion among Muslims that the apostle Paul of Tarsus was a corrupter of the faith and possibly even a false apostle. I believe that Paul is among histories finest theologians whose writings are valuable, inspired, and deserve their place in The New Testament Canon.

Surely God knows best, and we can accept God's sovereignty as the judge of these matters. On the last day, God will show us where we all differ, and I do not consider myself or any other human being to be the decider of these matters.

That said, I would be interested in hearing about what self professed Muslims have been taught or believe about the apostle Paul. In my efforts to defend Paul, I will draw from writings in The New Testament that are attributed to him. I personally will not use any other source of reference in my defense of Paul for the sake of this discussion.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
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7/8/2016 3:45:09 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man"and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
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7/8/2016 3:55:57 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Jesus and his disciples are considered Muslims by the Qur'an. It is not necessary for God realized Christians to receive another revelation. The Qur'an is unnecessary for the Christian who is God conscious.

I say this not out of disrespect to Mohammed as a prophet or those who follow him, but out of respect to Jesus and those who follow him.

Paul's writings are that of one who has submitted to God, and I believe this.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
uncung
Posts: 3,433
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7/8/2016 8:54:34 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 3:55:57 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Jesus and his disciples are considered Muslims by the Qur'an. It is not necessary for God realized Christians to receive another revelation. The Qur'an is unnecessary for the Christian who is God conscious.

I say this not out of disrespect to Mohammed as a prophet or those who follow him, but out of respect to Jesus and those who follow him.

Paul's writings are that of one who has submitted to God, and I believe this.

The disciples of Jesus in Islam were called Al Hawwriyyun (helpers). They were 12 persons. Islam has their own Islamic names. However none of them was Paul. Paul historically had never met Jesus . so the great Question how come he was treated as the disciple of Jesus?
uncung
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7/8/2016 8:55:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
The disciples of Jesus in Islam were called Al Hawwriyyun (helpers). They were 12 persons. Islam has their own Islamic names. However none of them was Paul. Paul historically had never met Jesus . so the great Question how come he was treated as the disciple of Jesus?
SpiritandTruth
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7/8/2016 12:20:12 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I don't think Paul's exclusion from The Qur'an is a sign that he wasn't a good disciple of Jesus. He did plenty for the faith, and was even acknowledged by Peter, who was chief among Jesus' helpers.

Paul may not have met Jesus during his ministry before the cross, but his writings speak for themselves. His epistles to the church are considered scripture for a reason.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
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7/8/2016 3:45:59 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 3:55:57 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Jesus and his disciples are considered Muslims by the Qur'an. It is not necessary for God realized Christians to receive another revelation. The Qur'an is unnecessary for the Christian who is God conscious.

I say this not out of disrespect to Mohammed as a prophet or those who follow him, but out of respect to Jesus and those who follow him.

Paul's writings are that of one who has submitted to God, and I believe this.

Well, one thing that is made pretty clear in the Qur'an is that Jesus was not the son of God, that's pretty central to Christianity.

Even more central to Christianity, is that Jesus died to set us free, wheras the Qur'an states that Jesus was no more than a messenger. ("Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah")
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/8/2016 4:18:27 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:17:30 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Muslims of DDO, peace be with you! I have much respect for Mohammed as being an apostle of God, and have little doubt that The Qur'an is inspired. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I have no reason to change. I believe that The Qur'an respects me on this, and God will as well on the last day. I know that our scriptures testify of the same God, The Ultimate Reality.

I have noticed that it seems to be a popular opinion among Muslims that the apostle Paul of Tarsus was a corrupter of the faith and possibly even a false apostle. I believe that Paul is among histories finest theologians whose writings are valuable, inspired, and deserve their place in The New Testament Canon.

Surely God knows best, and we can accept God's sovereignty as the judge of these matters. On the last day, God will show us where we all differ, and I do not consider myself or any other human being to be the decider of these matters.

That said, I would be interested in hearing about what self professed Muslims have been taught or believe about the apostle Paul. In my efforts to defend Paul, I will draw from writings in The New Testament that are attributed to him. I personally will not use any other source of reference in my defense of Paul for the sake of this discussion.

According to the Bible Muhammed is not only a false prophet but antichrist.

1)Denounced Christ as the Son of God. Antichrist by Biblical definotion.

2)Had sex with a child. Punishable by means worse than having a millstone tied around you and being cast into the sea according to Christ.

3)Broke Christ's command on adultery multiple times.

4)Preached death and hate to your enemy standing against Christ who said love your enemy.

5)According to the hadith one bearing the title "King pf Kings" is the enemy of Allah in the last day.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
uncung
Posts: 3,433
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7/8/2016 4:18:50 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 12:20:12 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I don't think Paul's exclusion from The Qur'an is a sign that he wasn't a good disciple of Jesus. He did plenty for the faith, and was even acknowledged by Peter, who was chief among Jesus' helpers.

Paul may not have met Jesus during his ministry before the cross, but his writings speak for themselves. His epistles to the church are considered scripture for a reason.

there is a great differentiation among other disciples and Paul. Paul created or invented some heretics that was not even known by other disciples. we can say Paul created Christianity.
since Paul didn't meet Jesus then he was not worth as the member of disciples to begin with.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/8/2016 4:20:28 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
In the hadith (Sahih-Al-Bukhari Bk 73; Num 224) Mohammed said, "The most awful name in Allah"s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the King of kings)."
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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7/8/2016 4:21:53 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:18:50 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:20:12 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I don't think Paul's exclusion from The Qur'an is a sign that he wasn't a good disciple of Jesus. He did plenty for the faith, and was even acknowledged by Peter, who was chief among Jesus' helpers.

Paul may not have met Jesus during his ministry before the cross, but his writings speak for themselves. His epistles to the church are considered scripture for a reason.

there is a great differentiation among other disciples and Paul. Paul created or invented some heretics that was not even known by other disciples. we can say Paul created Christianity.
since Paul didn't meet Jesus then he was not worth as the member of disciples to begin with.

He did meet Jesus in the Bible. Google it.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
uncung
Posts: 3,433
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7/8/2016 4:24:21 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:20:28 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
In the hadith (Sahih-Al-Bukhari Bk 73; Num 224) Mohammed said, "The most awful name in Allah"s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the King of kings)."

a man? who is he? weird hadith.
uncung
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7/8/2016 4:26:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:21:53 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:18:50 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:20:12 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I don't think Paul's exclusion from The Qur'an is a sign that he wasn't a good disciple of Jesus. He did plenty for the faith, and was even acknowledged by Peter, who was chief among Jesus' helpers.

Paul may not have met Jesus during his ministry before the cross, but his writings speak for themselves. His epistles to the church are considered scripture for a reason.

there is a great differentiation among other disciples and Paul. Paul created or invented some heretics that was not even known by other disciples. we can say Paul created Christianity.
since Paul didn't meet Jesus then he was not worth as the member of disciples to begin with.

He did meet Jesus in the Bible. Google it.

But I knew from Google he had never met Jesus.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/8/2016 4:30:08 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Islam is against Christ, not for him

In the hadith (Sahih-Al-Bukhari Bk 73; Num 224) Mohammed said, "The most awful name in Allah"s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the King of kings)."

http://youtu.be...

The beast of the earth is in regards to the Antichrist in Revelation, marking foreheads.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...(Revelation)

Islam is looking for someone called "the beast of the earth" who destroys the Christians and Jews and marks foreheads.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

*

Islam is looking for a prophet who denounces Jesus as the Son of God and their messiah, the Mahdi, in the end of days. He "breaks the cross". He destroys the Christians and Jews and rules the world. He and his followers will behead anyone who does not submit to Islam.

http://www.answering-islam.org...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/8/2016 4:31:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:24:21 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:20:28 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
In the hadith (Sahih-Al-Bukhari Bk 73; Num 224) Mohammed said, "The most awful name in Allah"s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the King of kings)."

a man? who is he? weird hadith.

The king of kings is Jesus Christ
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/8/2016 4:33:12 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:26:11 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:21:53 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:18:50 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:20:12 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I don't think Paul's exclusion from The Qur'an is a sign that he wasn't a good disciple of Jesus. He did plenty for the faith, and was even acknowledged by Peter, who was chief among Jesus' helpers.

Paul may not have met Jesus during his ministry before the cross, but his writings speak for themselves. His epistles to the church are considered scripture for a reason.

there is a great differentiation among other disciples and Paul. Paul created or invented some heretics that was not even known by other disciples. we can say Paul created Christianity.
since Paul didn't meet Jesus then he was not worth as the member of disciples to begin with.

He did meet Jesus in the Bible. Google it.

But I knew from Google he had never met Jesus.

You must have missed Acts. Especially Acts 9:4
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
uncung
Posts: 3,433
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7/8/2016 4:38:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:33:12 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:26:11 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:21:53 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:18:50 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:20:12 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I don't think Paul's exclusion from The Qur'an is a sign that he wasn't a good disciple of Jesus. He did plenty for the faith, and was even acknowledged by Peter, who was chief among Jesus' helpers.

Paul may not have met Jesus during his ministry before the cross, but his writings speak for themselves. His epistles to the church are considered scripture for a reason.

there is a great differentiation among other disciples and Paul. Paul created or invented some heretics that was not even known by other disciples. we can say Paul created Christianity.
since Paul didn't meet Jesus then he was not worth as the member of disciples to begin with.

He did meet Jesus in the Bible. Google it.

But I knew from Google he had never met Jesus.

You must have missed Acts. Especially Acts 9:4

Acts 9:4 New International Version
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

He heard the voice instead of saw Jesus. so definitely he had never met jesus.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/8/2016 4:42:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:38:52 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:33:12 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:26:11 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:21:53 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:18:50 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:20:12 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I don't think Paul's exclusion from The Qur'an is a sign that he wasn't a good disciple of Jesus. He did plenty for the faith, and was even acknowledged by Peter, who was chief among Jesus' helpers.

Paul may not have met Jesus during his ministry before the cross, but his writings speak for themselves. His epistles to the church are considered scripture for a reason.

there is a great differentiation among other disciples and Paul. Paul created or invented some heretics that was not even known by other disciples. we can say Paul created Christianity.
since Paul didn't meet Jesus then he was not worth as the member of disciples to begin with.

He did meet Jesus in the Bible. Google it.

But I knew from Google he had never met Jesus.

You must have missed Acts. Especially Acts 9:4

Acts 9:4 New International Version
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

He heard the voice instead of saw Jesus. so definitely he had never met jesus.

Then apparently I've never met you either.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/8/2016 4:44:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:38:52 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:33:12 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:26:11 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:21:53 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:18:50 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:20:12 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I don't think Paul's exclusion from The Qur'an is a sign that he wasn't a good disciple of Jesus. He did plenty for the faith, and was even acknowledged by Peter, who was chief among Jesus' helpers.

Paul may not have met Jesus during his ministry before the cross, but his writings speak for themselves. His epistles to the church are considered scripture for a reason.

there is a great differentiation among other disciples and Paul. Paul created or invented some heretics that was not even known by other disciples. we can say Paul created Christianity.
since Paul didn't meet Jesus then he was not worth as the member of disciples to begin with.

He did meet Jesus in the Bible. Google it.

But I knew from Google he had never met Jesus.

You must have missed Acts. Especially Acts 9:4

Acts 9:4 New International Version
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

He heard the voice instead of saw Jesus. so definitely he had never met jesus.

He also ran around with the greatest of the apostles, Peter, and James, the brother of Christ.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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7/8/2016 4:56:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:18:27 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:17:30 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Muslims of DDO, peace be with you! I have much respect for Mohammed as being an apostle of God, and have little doubt that The Qur'an is inspired. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I have no reason to change. I believe that The Qur'an respects me on this, and God will as well on the last day. I know that our scriptures testify of the same God, The Ultimate Reality.

I have noticed that it seems to be a popular opinion among Muslims that the apostle Paul of Tarsus was a corrupter of the faith and possibly even a false apostle. I believe that Paul is among histories finest theologians whose writings are valuable, inspired, and deserve their place in The New Testament Canon.

Surely God knows best, and we can accept God's sovereignty as the judge of these matters. On the last day, God will show us where we all differ, and I do not consider myself or any other human being to be the decider of these matters.

That said, I would be interested in hearing about what self professed Muslims have been taught or believe about the apostle Paul. In my efforts to defend Paul, I will draw from writings in The New Testament that are attributed to him. I personally will not use any other source of reference in my defense of Paul for the sake of this discussion.

According to the Bible Muhammed is not only a false prophet but antichrist.

1)Denounced Christ as the Son of God. Antichrist by Biblical definotion.

2)Had sex with a child. Punishable by means worse than having a millstone tied around you and being cast into the sea according to Christ.

3)Broke Christ's command on adultery multiple times.

4)Preached death and hate to your enemy standing against Christ who said love your enemy.

5)According to the hadith one bearing the title "King pf Kings" is the enemy of Allah in the last day.

Surely a christian would never go against No 4
uncung
Posts: 3,433
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7/8/2016 5:01:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:44:24 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:38:52 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:33:12 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:26:11 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:21:53 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/8/2016 4:18:50 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:20:12 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I don't think Paul's exclusion from The Qur'an is a sign that he wasn't a good disciple of Jesus. He did plenty for the faith, and was even acknowledged by Peter, who was chief among Jesus' helpers.

Paul may not have met Jesus during his ministry before the cross, but his writings speak for themselves. His epistles to the church are considered scripture for a reason.

there is a great differentiation among other disciples and Paul. Paul created or invented some heretics that was not even known by other disciples. we can say Paul created Christianity.
since Paul didn't meet Jesus then he was not worth as the member of disciples to begin with.

He did meet Jesus in the Bible. Google it.

But I knew from Google he had never met Jesus.

You must have missed Acts. Especially Acts 9:4

Acts 9:4 New International Version
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

He heard the voice instead of saw Jesus. so definitely he had never met jesus.

He also ran around with the greatest of the apostles, Peter, and James, the brother of Christ.

He hung out around with the disciples but it didn't make him a disciple.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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7/8/2016 6:21:39 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:17:30 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Muslims of DDO, peace be with you! I have much respect for Mohammed as being an apostle of God, and have little doubt that The Qur'an is inspired. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I have no reason to change. I believe that The Qur'an respects me on this, and God will as well on the last day. I know that our scriptures testify of the same God, The Ultimate Reality.

I have noticed that it seems to be a popular opinion among Muslims that the apostle Paul of Tarsus was a corrupter of the faith and possibly even a false apostle. I believe that Paul is among histories finest theologians whose writings are valuable, inspired, and deserve their place in The New Testament Canon.

Surely God knows best, and we can accept God's sovereignty as the judge of these matters. On the last day, God will show us where we all differ, and I do not consider myself or any other human being to be the decider of these matters.

That said, I would be interested in hearing about what self professed Muslims have been taught or believe about the apostle Paul. In my efforts to defend Paul, I will draw from writings in The New Testament that are attributed to him. I personally will not use any other source of reference in my defense of Paul for the sake of this discussion.

Response: As a Muslim, we as Muslims do not believe that the Bible is the word or inspired word of God in its entirety. Meaning that there are some parts of the Bible that is true, such as what agrees with the Qur'an. Then there are parts that are likely true, but we do not have enough evidence to claim it is 100% reliable. Other parts cannot be determined whether is is true or untrue. Then there are parts that go against the teachings of Islam, thus it is considered fabricated by Muslims.

Keeping the above in mind, when we read the letters and teachings of Paul, we see that his teaching goes against what Islam teaches about Jesus. As you know, Muslims do not accept the crucifixion, death or resurrection of Jesus, nor claim him to be God or part of a trinity. This is why the Paul is not considered a true disciple because his claims go against Islamic teaching.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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7/8/2016 7:52:08 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 6:21:39 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:17:30 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Muslims of DDO, peace be with you! I have much respect for Mohammed as being an apostle of God, and have little doubt that The Qur'an is inspired. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I have no reason to change. I believe that The Qur'an respects me on this, and God will as well on the last day. I know that our scriptures testify of the same God, The Ultimate Reality.

I have noticed that it seems to be a popular opinion among Muslims that the apostle Paul of Tarsus was a corrupter of the faith and possibly even a false apostle. I believe that Paul is among histories finest theologians whose writings are valuable, inspired, and deserve their place in The New Testament Canon.

Surely God knows best, and we can accept God's sovereignty as the judge of these matters. On the last day, God will show us where we all differ, and I do not consider myself or any other human being to be the decider of these matters.

That said, I would be interested in hearing about what self professed Muslims have been taught or believe about the apostle Paul. In my efforts to defend Paul, I will draw from writings in The New Testament that are attributed to him. I personally will not use any other source of reference in my defense of Paul for the sake of this discussion.

Response: As a Muslim, we as Muslims do not believe that the Bible is the word or inspired word of God in its entirety. Meaning that there are some parts of the Bible that is true, such as what agrees with the Qur'an. Then there are parts that are likely true, but we do not have enough evidence to claim it is 100% reliable. Other parts cannot be determined whether is is true or untrue. Then there are parts that go against the teachings of Islam, thus it is considered fabricated by Muslims.

Keeping the above in mind, when we read the letters and teachings of Paul, we see that his teaching goes against what Islam teaches about Jesus. As you know, Muslims do not accept the crucifixion, death or resurrection of Jesus, nor claim him to be God or part of a trinity. This is why the Paul is not considered a true disciple because his claims go against Islamic teaching.

But you do accept, or claim to, that children as young as six years old can show like of sex.
lotsoffun
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7/9/2016 1:34:34 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:17:30 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Muslims of DDO, peace be with you! I have much respect for Mohammed as being an apostle of God, and have little doubt that The Qur'an is inspired. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I have no reason to change. I believe that The Qur'an respects me on this, and God will as well on the last day. I know that our scriptures testify of the same God, The Ultimate Reality.

I have noticed that it seems to be a popular opinion among Muslims that the apostle Paul of Tarsus was a corrupter of the faith and possibly even a false apostle. I believe that Paul is among histories finest theologians whose writings are valuable, inspired, and deserve their place in The New Testament Canon.

Surely God knows best, and we can accept God's sovereignty as the judge of these matters. On the last day, God will show us where we all differ, and I do not consider myself or any other human being to be the decider of these matters.

That said, I would be interested in hearing about what self professed Muslims have been taught or believe about the apostle Paul. In my efforts to defend Paul, I will draw from writings in The New Testament that are attributed to him. I personally will not use any other source of reference in my defense of Paul for the sake of this discussion.
Why are you being so politically correct about Mohamed in your first sentence? He
was a warrior, a murderer and an over all sick being who had sex with a nine year old girl.. Jesus never hurt or raised a hand to anyone, neither did Buddha or Krishna. Stop lying to yourself about Islam and Mohamed. ask yourself why it is the most violent religion on the planet. Political correctness is your prison. The Koran and Islam do not respect you and Islam has designs to either convert, tax or kill you. Wake up!!
SpiritandTruth
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7/9/2016 2:44:59 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 4:18:50 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:20:12 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
I don't think Paul's exclusion from The Qur'an is a sign that he wasn't a good disciple of Jesus. He did plenty for the faith, and was even acknowledged by Peter, who was chief among Jesus' helpers.

Paul may not have met Jesus during his ministry before the cross, but his writings speak for themselves. His epistles to the church are considered scripture for a reason.

there is a great differentiation among other disciples and Paul. Paul created or invented some heretics that was not even known by other disciples. we can say Paul created Christianity.
since Paul didn't meet Jesus then he was not worth as the member of disciples to begin with.

Well, I say that Mohammed was a disciple of Jesus, and I say that he met Jesus. You do not know the Jesus that Paul and Mohammed met. You know a different Jesus. If you read the scriptures that I posted above, the truth speaks very well for itself. Muslims can learn a lot from Jesus. In a lot of ways, he was specifically preaching to them.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
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7/9/2016 3:25:51 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."

Muslims do not like Paul because he wrote,

"Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar" for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children" but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written:

"Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband."
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free

You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.

And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!

For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ"s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another."

A letter to the church that we all belong to. Muslims should recognize that Jesus is the admitted Christ and Messiah, and it is necessary according to prophecy that The Messiah is understood as God With Us, God's Salvation.

Muslim are right to say that worshiping a man as God is clear idolatry. Muslims are right to say that Jesus was a Prophet. Muslims are right to say that Jesus is The Messiah. Truly, the letter of the law kills, but the spirit of the law brings life! They need to understand that Jesus was the living Word of God, The Most Perfect Image, and he was crucified, but not killed. The Muslims are right to say that Jesus was not killed, because you cannot kill God's Salvation. You cannot kill God's Word. You can not kill God. The very ones who knew who Jesus was called for his execution, believing that they could trade the truth of God for a lie. These are spiritual things. Muslims understand Jesus the man, but they do not understand "The word made Flesh". Indeed, when they don't acknowledge this, they deny all the prophets.

Paul is an Apostle, and should be respected as such.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
SpiritandTruth
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7/10/2016 11:55:08 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
The Pauline Epistles are really good.

"In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations" "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using"according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh."
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
lotsoffun
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7/11/2016 2:15:23 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/8/2016 6:21:39 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:17:30 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Muslims of DDO, peace be with you! I have much respect for Mohammed as being an apostle of God, and have little doubt that The Qur'an is inspired. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I have no reason to change. I believe that The Qur'an respects me on this, and God will as well on the last day. I know that our scriptures testify of the same God, The Ultimate Reality.

I have noticed that it seems to be a popular opinion among Muslims that the apostle Paul of Tarsus was a corrupter of the faith and possibly even a false apostle. I believe that Paul is among histories finest theologians whose writings are valuable, inspired, and deserve their place in The New Testament Canon.

Surely God knows best, and we can accept God's sovereignty as the judge of these matters. On the last day, God will show us where we all differ, and I do not consider myself or any other human being to be the decider of these matters.

That said, I would be interested in hearing about what self professed Muslims have been taught or believe about the apostle Paul. In my efforts to defend Paul, I will draw from writings in The New Testament that are attributed to him. I personally will not use any other source of reference in my defense of Paul for the sake of this discussion.

Response: As a Muslim, we as Muslims do not believe that the Bible is the word or inspired word of God in its entirety. Meaning that there are some parts of the Bible that is true, such as what agrees with the Qur'an. Then there are parts that are likely true, but we do not have enough evidence to claim it is 100% reliable. Other parts cannot be determined whether is is true or untrue. Then there are parts that go against the teachings of Islam, thus it is considered fabricated by Muslims.

Keeping the above in mind, when we read the letters and teachings of Paul, we see that his teaching goes against what Islam teaches about Jesus. As you know, Muslims do not accept the crucifixion, death or resurrection of Jesus, nor claim him to be God or part of a trinity. This is why the Paul is not considered a true disciple because his claims go against Islamic teaching.

The entire non Muslim world and even many trapped and threatened Muslims are against Islamic teachings also.
Fatihah
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7/11/2016 2:19:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 2:15:23 AM, lotsoffun wrote:


The entire non Muslim world and even many trapped and threatened Muslims are against Islamic teachings also.

Response: The entire Muslim world and even some trapped and threated non-Muslims are against atheist, agnostic, and secular teachings also
desmac
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7/11/2016 6:35:17 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 2:19:02 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/11/2016 2:15:23 AM, lotsoffun wrote:


The entire non Muslim world and even many trapped and threatened Muslims are against Islamic teachings also.

Response: The entire Muslim world and even some trapped and threated non-Muslims are against atheist, agnostic, and secular teachings also

I presume you have as many citations for that statement as you do for your extraordinary claim that children as young as six years old can show like of sex.