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What's the difference?

Brushfire
Posts: 26
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7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/11/2016 3:28:13 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

If you had no arms and legs, prayed to God, and they suddenly appeared I'm assuming that wouldn't be blind luck.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

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bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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7/11/2016 3:44:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 3:28:13 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

If you had no arms and legs, prayed to God, and they suddenly appeared I'm assuming that wouldn't be blind luck.
Ya got pics of that moron? The brain stem has a lot to answer for.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
difference
Posts: 177
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7/11/2016 4:51:50 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

It's just a feeling. The difference is arbitrary.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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7/11/2016 4:59:55 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 4:51:50 PM, difference wrote:
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

It's just a feeling. The difference is arbitrary.

Are you?
Brushfire
Posts: 26
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7/11/2016 7:39:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 3:28:13 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

If you had no arms and legs, prayed to God, and they suddenly appeared I'm assuming that wouldn't be blind luck.

That's great in theory but do you have any real life examples of that happening that I can look at?
Brushfire
Posts: 26
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7/11/2016 7:42:56 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 4:51:50 PM, difference wrote:
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

It's just a feeling. The difference is arbitrary.

The problem I have with the idea that it's arbitrary is your personal feeling don't effect reality at all. I can want gravity to pull up as much as I want but it wont change the fact that gravity pulls down.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/11/2016 7:54:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

Brushfire, it's fairly well-established that miracle must be authorised by the same people -- whoever they are -- who decide which documents are theological canon and how they are to be interpreted. These can be a formal theocracy like the Vatican, or an informal theological hegemony like those appearing among Evangelicals and Charismatics.

In answer to what I anticipate may be your next questions, such people need have no special qualifications or methodologies. They simply select themselves based on how insightful they feel, and how influential are their friends, then gang together to push out anyone who won't agree with them and support their political objectives (much as did the ancient fathers of the Christian Church, and the bishops who succeeded them.)

Consequently, what was declared a miracle offering proof of theological truth yesterday, can become an ordinary event today that nevertheless doesn't damage the integrity of theological epistemology so long as everyone agrees to forget about it and move on. And if you say it does, then the theological elite may denounce you as a heretic seeking to undermine faith.

On the other hand, as the theological elite note the changing opinions of their parishioners, they may begin to claim phenomena presently observable, that no scriptural author knew about, to be miracles now, without explaining how they acquired that knowledge.

Lest you're worried, this is not the cynical and dishonest abuse of the ignorant's trust, but a pious expression of faith in ancient traditions being constantly redefined and reinvented.

Don't worry, Brushfire, it's only worrisome if you think about it. To avoid having to do so, I recommend that you throw yourself zealously and unreservedly into becoming part of the problem.
difference
Posts: 177
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7/12/2016 12:48:54 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 7:42:56 PM, Brushfire wrote:
At 7/11/2016 4:51:50 PM, difference wrote:
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

It's just a feeling. The difference is arbitrary.

The problem I have with the idea that it's arbitrary is your personal feeling don't effect reality at all. I can want gravity to pull up as much as I want but it wont change the fact that gravity pulls down.

Gravity pulls up when you're upside down ;)

If you know what a miracle is and what a statically improbable event is I think it would be clear which is which. If they look identical, they're probably the same. But if for some reason two things that look the same must be different, then I think you're moving into imagination and away from reality.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/12/2016 11:21:29 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

One has a spiritual origin, the other natural. Yes, I know below you didn't ask for definition differences, I'm just reminding you the nature of the two for a reason which is obvious of course.


I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

To be honest they couldn't "determine" it, not because spiritual things don't transpire but because there is no physical base to examine the source. So basically if a "miracle" occurred it would look like it just happened out of nowhere, or maybe even appear to be luck or a coincidence.
However, if you have a practitioner like that of Jesus, you know that when He suggests or prays for something and it comes to fruition there is good grounds to believe the nature of what is being performed is spiritual, and not a coincidence.


And how can you know for sure?

You would never know for sure honestly, because of the spiritual origin it has no material base to trace back, unless that miracle came through your own vessel, that you could confirm it.
Brushfire
Posts: 26
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7/14/2016 6:57:50 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 12:48:54 AM, difference wrote:
At 7/11/2016 7:42:56 PM, Brushfire wrote:
At 7/11/2016 4:51:50 PM, difference wrote:
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

It's just a feeling. The difference is arbitrary.

The problem I have with the idea that it's arbitrary is your personal feeling don't effect reality at all. I can want gravity to pull up as much as I want but it wont change the fact that gravity pulls down.

Gravity pulls up when you're upside down ;)

If you know what a miracle is and what a statically improbable event is I think it would be clear which is which. If they look identical, they're probably the same. But if for some reason two things that look the same must be different, then I think you're moving into imagination and away from reality.

The reason I say there identical is because you can say that about a lot of questions.

Care to explain the difference between a god who exists outside time and space and currently doesn't interact with the world and one that does not exist.

Feel free to explain because as far as I'm concerned those again are identical.
Brushfire
Posts: 26
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7/14/2016 7:03:26 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 11:21:29 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

One has a spiritual origin, the other natural. Yes, I know below you didn't ask for definition differences, I'm just reminding you the nature of the two for a reason which is obvious of course.


I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

To be honest they couldn't "determine" it, not because spiritual things don't transpire but because there is no physical base to examine the source. So basically if a "miracle" occurred it would look like it just happened out of nowhere, or maybe even appear to be luck or a coincidence.
However, if you have a practitioner like that of Jesus, you know that when He suggests or prays for something and it comes to fruition there is good grounds to believe the nature of what is being performed is spiritual, and not a coincidence.

Actually I'd call the second scenario to be more likely to be a coincidence. And you kind of hit the point I was trying to make with the question, if you can't determine it why not cut out the spiritual stuff and just call it chance considering we know probability is an actual thing that we can explain.


And how can you know for sure?

You would never know for sure honestly, because of the spiritual origin it has no material base to trace back, unless that miracle came through your own vessel, that you could confirm it.

Even if the miracle happened to me directly I still wouldn't find it overly useful considering i'd still be clueless on what caused it.
Willows
Posts: 2,027
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7/14/2016 7:27:04 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

There is no such thing as a miracle, no such thing at all. Some people talk about miracles in a metaphorical way, others believe there is some spiritual connotation. There has never been one single confirmation or material evidence of a miracle happening, never.
It is reasonable to assume therefore that any out of the ordinary event is what it is, no more, no less. If you are going to be gullible enough to believe in miracles (or what someone tells you is a miracle) then the answer to your question will have to be; "there is no way whatsoever to determine the difference, if you want it to be a miracle then it is one".
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/14/2016 3:09:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/14/2016 7:03:26 AM, Brushfire wrote:
At 7/12/2016 11:21:29 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

One has a spiritual origin, the other natural. Yes, I know below you didn't ask for definition differences, I'm just reminding you the nature of the two for a reason which is obvious of course.


I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

To be honest they couldn't "determine" it, not because spiritual things don't transpire but because there is no physical base to examine the source. So basically if a "miracle" occurred it would look like it just happened out of nowhere, or maybe even appear to be luck or a coincidence.
However, if you have a practitioner like that of Jesus, you know that when He suggests or prays for something and it comes to fruition there is good grounds to believe the nature of what is being performed is spiritual, and not a coincidence.

Actually I'd call the second scenario to be more likely to be a coincidence. And you kind of hit the point I was trying to make with the question, if you can't determine it why not cut out the spiritual stuff and just call it chance considering we know probability is an actual thing that we can explain.

Because the spiritual is as real as your momma, but thanks for your opinion. I've seen different elements of it and I've been studying it's principles on my own accord since I was a young kid. To deny it would be lying to myself. As an atheist though, and along with a material mindset you are forced to believe it's all coincidence. I can't help that unless you are ready to move them obstacles.



And how can you know for sure?

You would never know for sure honestly, because of the spiritual origin it has no material base to trace back, unless that miracle came through your own vessel, that you could confirm it.

Even if the miracle happened to me directly I still wouldn't find it overly useful considering i'd still be clueless on what caused it.

What I meant was...., if you were a practitioner, or used to discerning how spiritual things function and operate you would have a chance at discovering it's origin. As an atheist, you have no chance, your paradigms won't allow for it.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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7/14/2016 3:14:46 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

A statistically unlikely event will still have a natural explanation, a miracle will violate the rules of the physical universe, e.g. the sun stopping in the sky, a sea parting, etc.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/14/2016 3:37:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

A miracle is probably best described as an event thought to be impossible occurs anyway.
Example. Jesus raises lazerus from the dead. An impossible feat that occurs simply by the words of Jesus.
There are less impressive examples throughout history like kobe bryant making impossible wins or the detroit lions one day winning the superbowl, but thats the gist of it.
difference
Posts: 177
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7/14/2016 9:29:39 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/14/2016 6:57:50 AM, Brushfire wrote:
At 7/12/2016 12:48:54 AM, difference wrote:
At 7/11/2016 7:42:56 PM, Brushfire wrote:
At 7/11/2016 4:51:50 PM, difference wrote:
At 7/11/2016 6:21:30 AM, Brushfire wrote:
Can someone explain to me the difference between a miracle and a statically improbable event?

I don't care for the differences in definition of the words. I'm more looking how if someone witnessed an event how could that person determine if it was a miracle or just a thing that was unlikely but still happened despite the odds.

And how can you know for sure?

It's just a feeling. The difference is arbitrary.

The problem I have with the idea that it's arbitrary is your personal feeling don't effect reality at all. I can want gravity to pull up as much as I want but it wont change the fact that gravity pulls down.

Gravity pulls up when you're upside down ;)

If you know what a miracle is and what a statically improbable event is I think it would be clear which is which. If they look identical, they're probably the same. But if for some reason two things that look the same must be different, then I think you're moving into imagination and away from reality.

The reason I say there identical is because you can say that about a lot of questions.

Care to explain the difference between a god who exists outside time and space and currently doesn't interact with the world and one that does not exist.

Feel free to explain because as far as I'm concerned those again are identical.

Doesn't it just become about definition at that point? If you can't tell what you're observing or that you are observing