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The bible being true.

bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/15/2016 4:28:29 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

It's been explained to you many times by me, that the teachings of Jesus are principle oriented. WHICH MEANS, that the objects and illustrations in the teachings are not the focus, rather the underlying principle that supports it. Read that whole chapter rather than just verse 26 and everything should fall into place for you. However, you don't want it to, that's the point of your topic, you think Jesus actually taught us to hate our family members lol.

We know that is complete bulpoop based on John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/15/2016 4:38:27 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Check out the end of that chapter too....

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?

35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Again, Jesus isn't demanding we forsake everything we have and bear a "cross" literally in verse 27 and 33, it's principle oriented. Simple stuff man.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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7/15/2016 4:38:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 4:28:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

It's been explained to you many times by me, that the teachings of Jesus are principle oriented. WHICH MEANS, that the objects and illustrations in the teachings are not the focus, rather the underlying principle that supports it. Read that whole chapter rather than just verse 26 and everything should fall into place for you. However, you don't want it to, that's the point of your topic, you think Jesus actually taught us to hate our family members lol.

We know that is complete bulpoop based on John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Are you saying . don't believe the luke 14:26. Bit
But believe the john 13. Bit
I suggest you read the whole chapter rather then verse 13.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/15/2016 4:40:23 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 4:38:42 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:28:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

It's been explained to you many times by me, that the teachings of Jesus are principle oriented. WHICH MEANS, that the objects and illustrations in the teachings are not the focus, rather the underlying principle that supports it. Read that whole chapter rather than just verse 26 and everything should fall into place for you. However, you don't want it to, that's the point of your topic, you think Jesus actually taught us to hate our family members lol.

We know that is complete bulpoop based on John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Are you saying . don't believe the luke 14:26. Bit
But believe the john 13. Bit
I suggest you read the whole chapter rather then verse 13.

Don't suggest my friend, I've been applying this stuff since I was a kid. Follow what I'm saying and you will have your eyes opened to the truth.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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7/15/2016 4:52:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 4:40:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:38:42 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:28:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

It's been explained to you many times by me, that the teachings of Jesus are principle oriented. WHICH MEANS, that the objects and illustrations in the teachings are not the focus, rather the underlying principle that supports it. Read that whole chapter rather than just verse 26 and everything should fall into place for you. However, you don't want it to, that's the point of your topic, you think Jesus actually taught us to hate our family members lol.

We know that is complete bulpoop based on John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Are you saying . don't believe the luke 14:26. Bit
But believe the john 13. Bit
I suggest you read the whole chapter rather then verse 13.

Don't suggest my friend, I've been applying this stuff since I was a kid. Follow what I'm saying and you will have your eyes opened to the truth.

Did God proof read the bible before they printed it.
Why does he not mention that thing that happens in the year 2248.
I mean nowhere in the bible does it mention the internet.
Maybe just maybe , God did not want his people using computers.
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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7/15/2016 4:59:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 4:38:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Check out the end of that chapter too....

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?

35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Again, Jesus isn't demanding we forsake everything we have and bear a "cross" literally in verse 27 and 33, it's principle oriented. Simple stuff man.

You seem to have ignored a bit.
Luke 14:26

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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7/15/2016 5:06:27 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 4:28:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

It's been explained to you many times by me, that the teachings of Jesus are principle oriented. WHICH MEANS, that the objects and illustrations in the teachings are not the focus, rather the underlying principle that supports it. Read that whole chapter rather than just verse 26 and everything should fall into place for you. However, you don't want it to, that's the point of your topic, you think Jesus actually taught us to hate our family members lol.

We know that is complete bulpoop based on John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

So the OP is correct. You don't believe what the bible says.
And you use the "non existent" biblical contradictions in order to support your disbelief in the bible.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2016 1:25:40 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 4:52:09 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:40:23 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:38:42 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:28:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

It's been explained to you many times by me, that the teachings of Jesus are principle oriented. WHICH MEANS, that the objects and illustrations in the teachings are not the focus, rather the underlying principle that supports it. Read that whole chapter rather than just verse 26 and everything should fall into place for you. However, you don't want it to, that's the point of your topic, you think Jesus actually taught us to hate our family members lol.

We know that is complete bulpoop based on John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Are you saying . don't believe the luke 14:26. Bit
But believe the john 13. Bit
I suggest you read the whole chapter rather then verse 13.

Don't suggest my friend, I've been applying this stuff since I was a kid. Follow what I'm saying and you will have your eyes opened to the truth.

Did God proof read the bible before they printed it.
Why does he not mention that thing that happens in the year 2248.
I mean nowhere in the bible does it mention the internet.
Maybe just maybe , God did not want his people using computers.

No, the Bible is for spiritual knowledge. We learn and grow in technology according to our own advancements. That's part of the fun in discovering things. Think spiritual when learning of God not material. Two different natures.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/18/2016 1:48:16 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 5:06:27 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:28:29 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

It's been explained to you many times by me, that the teachings of Jesus are principle oriented. WHICH MEANS, that the objects and illustrations in the teachings are not the focus, rather the underlying principle that supports it. Read that whole chapter rather than just verse 26 and everything should fall into place for you. However, you don't want it to, that's the point of your topic, you think Jesus actually taught us to hate our family members lol.

We know that is complete bulpoop based on John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

So the OP is correct. You don't believe what the bible says.
And you use the "non existent" biblical contradictions in order to support your disbelief in the bible.

So it's been what now... coming on 4 years? we still play the same dumb games and you refuse to accept anything? where's that thinking cap Bul? Do you know what a principle even is?
Principle-" a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.
a fundamental source or basis of something.
a moral rule or belief that helps you know what is right and wrong and that influences your actions
a basic truth or theory : an idea that forms the basis of something
a law or fact of nature that explains how something works or why something happens"

Jesus' illustrations, parables, teachings, hyperbole statements, lessons all reveal principles and point to the same law at many angles really, that's putting God as number one, priorities...."seek ye first the Kingdom of God".... Jesus uses illustrations like "moving mountains", "sowing seeds", "bearing one's cross" "slay them before me", "upon this rock", "drink this water", "eat this bread", "hate thy brother" ect ect as means of communicating spiritual truth and priorities. Grow up.
So I guess you also believe Jesus was a cannibal as well since He said "eat my flesh", is that your position Bul "proof"??
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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7/18/2016 3:29:40 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Jesus said we need to eat flesh and drink blood too right?

They don't understand anything, and they don't want to.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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7/18/2016 6:28:48 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 3:29:40 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Jesus said we need to eat flesh and drink blood too right?


They don't understand anything, and they don't want to.
This thread is all the proof needed to support old George.
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means. (George Bernard Shaw)
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible. The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship. Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me. Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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7/18/2016 7:09:31 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible.

Because it being on the Internet must mean it is useless, right?

The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship.

Hence the foundation for an authoritarian doctrine has been laid out. Notice how, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses might seek solace in this verse when they deny their own children a blood transfusion. They might say to themselves: Hey I'm putting my Lord Saviour Jesus Christ first, even above and beyond the health of my own children.

Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me.

Exactly.
2000 years later the statement resonates irresponsibility, childishness and delusion, like a gong. The only way for such radical injunction to hold true would have been for it to be immediately preceded by the end of the world, Armageddon, or a new system of things. Since none of that happened, it's merely a grandiloquent phrase hardly anyone takes to heart. Just imagine if all or even most Christians had indeed forsaken all things to follow Christ throughout history.

Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Yes, and in so it gains disturbing similarities' with Stalinism and North Korea.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/18/2016 7:33:24 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 7:09:31 AM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible.

Because it being on the Internet must mean it is useless, right?
Generally. Most decent information is found in books or scholarly resources.

The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship.

Hence the foundation for an authoritarian doctrine has been laid out. Notice how, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses might seek solace in this verse when they deny their own children a blood transfusion. They might say to themselves: Hey I'm putting my Lord Saviour Jesus Christ first, even above and beyond the health of my own children.

Anyone can take anything to mean anything but where are you finding that justification here? How would denying your child a blood transfusion be putting Christ first above the health of your own children?

Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me.

Exactly.
2000 years later the statement resonates irresponsibility, childishness and delusion, like a gong. The only way for such radical injunction to hold true would have been for it to be immediately preceded by the end of the world, Armageddon, or a new system of things. Since none of that happened, it's merely a grandiloquent phrase hardly anyone takes to heart. Just imagine if all or even most Christians had indeed forsaken all things to follow Christ throughout history.

History would have been great...Do you honestly hold the teachings of Jesus and the bible in general to be bad for the world?

Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Yes, and in so it gains disturbing similarities' with Stalinism and North Korea.
In what manner?
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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7/18/2016 10:26:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 7:33:24 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 7:09:31 AM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible.

Because it being on the Internet must mean it is useless, right?
Generally. Most decent information is found in books or scholarly resources.

I'll keep that in mind as I go through your posts.


The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship.

Hence the foundation for an authoritarian doctrine has been laid out. Notice how, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses might seek solace in this verse when they deny their own children a blood transfusion. They might say to themselves: Hey I'm putting my Lord Saviour Jesus Christ first, even above and beyond the health of my own children.

Anyone can take anything to mean anything but where are you finding that justification here?

The verse itself.
And guess what, that's precisely their rationale, one that is binding on some 8 million people.

How would denying your child a blood transfusion be putting Christ first above the health of your own children?

1. Because verses such as those incite Christians to put their faith in the Lord above everything else.
2. Because they claim to have scriptural basis to abstain from blood transfusions.

1 + 2 = They feel they are scripturally justified in putting Christ's will to have transfusions refused above the health of their children and themselves.


Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me.

Exactly.
2000 years later the statement resonates irresponsibility, childishness and delusion, like a gong. The only way for such radical injunction to hold true would have been for it to be immediately preceded by the end of the world, Armageddon, or a new system of things. Since none of that happened, it's merely a grandiloquent phrase hardly anyone takes to heart. Just imagine if all or even most Christians had indeed forsaken all things to follow Christ throughout history.

History would have been great...

We would still be living in sheds, caves, still harvesting and hunting. Progress and civilization run contrary to Christianity.

Do you honestly hold the teachings of Jesus and the bible in general to be bad for the world?

I think they're outright awful, a moral disaster and an obstacle to ethical progress.

Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Yes, and in so it gains disturbing similarities' with Stalinism and North Korea.
In what manner?

Both are totalitarian ideologies.
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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7/18/2016 11:04:50 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible. The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
Isn't it amazing how you believers can make yourself believe anything but the truth. That passage needs no interpretation it is completely straight forward. It is a command to hate.
None of the rest of the piffle you have presented alters that FACT. But you make sure you turn the verse into something it's not or else you'll go to hell when you die.
Frightening ain't it?
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship. Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me. Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bigotry
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7/18/2016 4:30:54 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 10:26:30 AM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/18/2016 7:33:24 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 7:09:31 AM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible.

Because it being on the Internet must mean it is useless, right?
Generally. Most decent information is found in books or scholarly resources.

I'll keep that in mind as I go through your posts.


The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship.

Hence the foundation for an authoritarian doctrine has been laid out. Notice how, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses might seek solace in this verse when they deny their own children a blood transfusion. They might say to themselves: Hey I'm putting my Lord Saviour Jesus Christ first, even above and beyond the health of my own children.

Anyone can take anything to mean anything but where are you finding that justification here?

The verse itself.
And guess what, that's precisely their rationale, one that is binding on some 8 million people.

Feel free the make a justified connection anytime.

How would denying your child a blood transfusion be putting Christ first above the health of your own children?

1. Because verses such as those incite Christians to put their faith in the Lord above everything else.

What does that have to do with this?
2. Because they claim to have scriptural basis to abstain from blood transfusions.
Its nice to just say things but again that doesnt prove anything...

1 + 2 = They feel they are scripturally justified in putting Christ's will to have transfusions refused above the health of their children and themselves.
How do they know what his will is? How do they know his will isnt to get the treatment?


Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me.

Exactly.
2000 years later the statement resonates irresponsibility, childishness and delusion, like a gong. The only way for such radical injunction to hold true would have been for it to be immediately preceded by the end of the world, Armageddon, or a new system of things. Since none of that happened, it's merely a grandiloquent phrase hardly anyone takes to heart. Just imagine if all or even most Christians had indeed forsaken all things to follow Christ throughout history.

History would have been great...

We would still be living in sheds, caves, still harvesting and hunting. Progress and civilization run contrary to Christianity.

So its your position the bible is anti education correct?


Do you honestly hold the teachings of Jesus and the bible in general to be bad for the world?

I think they're outright awful, a moral disaster and an obstacle to ethical progress.

So what are the flaws in say the 10 commandments or Jesus 2 commandments?
I get that you apparently would be ok with murder, being jealous of your neighbor and taking his things for yourself, sleeping with married women and ruining homes but how is that productive?

Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Yes, and in so it gains disturbing similarities' with Stalinism and North Korea.
In what manner?

Both are totalitarian ideologies.
Everythings a totalitarian ideology by that standard...
bigotry
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7/18/2016 4:33:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 11:04:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible. The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
Isn't it amazing how you believers can make yourself believe anything but the truth. That passage needs no interpretation it is completely straight forward. It is a command to hate.
None of the rest of the piffle you have presented alters that FACT. But you make sure you turn the verse into something it's not or else you'll go to hell when you die.

Thats an interesting response to a pursuit of better understanding. Guess your one of those anti education people.
Frightening ain't it?
Id say your rhetoric truely is.
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship. Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me. Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Nice response...
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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7/18/2016 4:43:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 4:33:11 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 11:04:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible. The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
Isn't it amazing how you believers can make yourself believe anything but the truth. That passage needs no interpretation it is completely straight forward. It is a command to hate.
None of the rest of the piffle you have presented alters that FACT. But you make sure you turn the verse into something it's not or else you'll go to hell when you die.

Thats an interesting response to a pursuit of better understanding. Guess your one of those anti education people.
Frightening ain't it?
Id say your rhetoric truely is.
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship. Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me. Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Nice response...

Never mind little one, you go on convincing yourself that hate means love and you won't end up in your mythical hell. We need to take care of you feeble minded.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/18/2016 4:44:37 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 4:43:43 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 4:33:11 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 11:04:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible. The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
Isn't it amazing how you believers can make yourself believe anything but the truth. That passage needs no interpretation it is completely straight forward. It is a command to hate.
None of the rest of the piffle you have presented alters that FACT. But you make sure you turn the verse into something it's not or else you'll go to hell when you die.

Thats an interesting response to a pursuit of better understanding. Guess your one of those anti education people.
Frightening ain't it?
Id say your rhetoric truely is.
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship. Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me. Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Nice response...

Never mind little one, you go on convincing yourself that hate means love and you won't end up in your mythical hell. We need to take care of you feeble minded.
So youv conceded the argument. Ok
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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7/18/2016 5:24:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 4:30:54 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 10:26:30 AM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/18/2016 7:33:24 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 7:09:31 AM, Omniverse wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible.

Because it being on the Internet must mean it is useless, right?
Generally. Most decent information is found in books or scholarly resources.

I'll keep that in mind as I go through your posts.


The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship.

Hence the foundation for an authoritarian doctrine has been laid out. Notice how, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses might seek solace in this verse when they deny their own children a blood transfusion. They might say to themselves: Hey I'm putting my Lord Saviour Jesus Christ first, even above and beyond the health of my own children.

Anyone can take anything to mean anything but where are you finding that justification here?

The verse itself.
And guess what, that's precisely their rationale, one that is binding on some 8 million people.

Feel free the make a justified connection anytime.

The fact you can't get it does not mean I haven't made a point.
Again,. let's put this in simpler terms, so perhaps there's a chance you get it this time around.

A. Christ tells us to put Him above all else, including family.
B. Christ is said to have stated, through the apostolic council at Jerusalem, that Christians should abstain from blood.
C. In accordance with A and B, Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to accept blood transfusions and as tutors of their minor children, have them do the same.

I'd say it's straightforward. Notice I'm not passing judgement on the morality or scripturality of this interpretation. I am merely pointing out the fact such verse opens the door to such awful consequences.


How would denying your child a blood transfusion be putting Christ first above the health of your own children?

1. Because verses such as those incite Christians to put their faith in the Lord above everything else.

What does that have to do with this?

See above.

2. Because they claim to have scriptural basis to abstain from blood transfusions.
Its nice to just say things but again that doesnt prove anything...

1 + 2 = They feel they are scripturally justified in putting Christ's will to have transfusions refused above the health of their children and themselves.
How do they know what his will is?

As Christians, they believe His will is expressed in the Bible. I'd say 99% of Christians hold the same view, albeit they reach different theological conclusions. The basic premise is shared by almost all Christians, though.

How do they know his will isnt to get the treatment?

Because had Christ changed his mind on the issue - assuming that such a thing is even conceivable - He would have made his will expressed, like He did originally. Again, notice that I'm not arguing for JWs' interpretation. Believing that Christ did change His mind, problematic on its own, but failed to communicate it to mankind puts you in a deeper hole. Again, bear in mind I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, not even a Christian. I'm just recounting the internal logic behind the theology.



Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me.

Exactly.
2000 years later the statement resonates irresponsibility, childishness and delusion, like a gong. The only way for such radical injunction to hold true would have been for it to be immediately preceded by the end of the world, Armageddon, or a new system of things. Since none of that happened, it's merely a grandiloquent phrase hardly anyone takes to heart. Just imagine if all or even most Christians had indeed forsaken all things to follow Christ throughout history.

History would have been great...

We would still be living in sheds, caves, still harvesting and hunting. Progress and civilization run contrary to Christianity.

So its your position the bible is anti education correct?

The problem with that question is that it encompasses the entirety of the Bible. If your question were restricted to that passage alone, the answer would be a resounding yes. But I am ready to accept there are contradictions in the Bible, whereas you are not.



Do you honestly hold the teachings of Jesus and the bible in general to be bad for the world?

I think they're outright awful, a moral disaster and an obstacle to ethical progress.

So what are the flaws in say the 10 commandments or Jesus 2 commandments?

Feel free to start a new thread on this.
I might chime in.

I get that you apparently would be ok with murder

Which would mean you're at the very least distracted and at the most, with some probability , dishonest.

, being jealous of your neighbor and taking his things for yourself,

See above.

sleeping with married women

See above.

and ruining homes

See above.

but how is that productive?

Strawman detected.


Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Yes, and in so it gains disturbing similarities' with Stalinism and North Korea.
In what manner?

Both are totalitarian ideologies.
Everythings a totalitarian ideology by that standard...

I hadn't offered a standard for totalitarianism yet, so you must be speaking about your own.

Here's the definition of totalitarianism:

(https://www.britannica.com...)

"Totalitarianism, form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of the individual"s life to the authority of the government.
"

It's ironic how some Christians often describe their theology as more than just a religion, how it is a way of life, as it encompasses all aspects of it. In doing so, they are being true to that verse, which, of course, is totalitarian by nature.

And that's one of the reasons Christianity should be opposed.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/19/2016 6:27:42 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
The verse itself.
And guess what, that's precisely their rationale, one that is binding on some 8 million people.

Feel free the make a justified connection anytime.

The fact you can't get it does not mean I haven't made a point.
Again,. let's put this in simpler terms, so perhaps there's a chance you get it this time around.

A. Christ tells us to put Him above all else, including family.
B. Christ is said to have stated, through the apostolic council at Jerusalem, that Christians should abstain from blood.
abstain from blood? You mean abstain from the drinking of blood like the local cults of the time?

C. In accordance with A and B, Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to accept blood transfusions and as tutors of their minor children, have them do the same.

A still doesn't qualify as a reason to not seek a blood transfusion. You haven't made a connection at all here...I again ask that when Jesus says to put him first how does this in any logical manner bar anyone from seeking medical treatment?

I'd say it's straightforward. Notice I'm not passing judgement on the morality or scripturality of this interpretation. I am merely pointing out the fact such verse opens the door to such awful consequences.

I'm simply not seeing this door whatsoever.


How would denying your child a blood transfusion be putting Christ first above the health of your own children?

1. Because verses such as those incite Christians to put their faith in the Lord above everything else.

What does that have to do with this?

See above.

2. Because they claim to have scriptural basis to abstain from blood transfusions.
Its nice to just say things but again that doesnt prove anything...

1 + 2 = They feel they are scripturally justified in putting Christ's will to have transfusions refused above the health of their children and themselves.
How do they know what his will is?

As Christians, they believe His will is expressed in the Bible. I'd say 99% of Christians hold the same view, albeit they reach different theological conclusions. The basic premise is shared by almost all Christians, though.

So which part of the bible bars a blood transfusion?

How do they know his will isnt to get the treatment?

Because had Christ changed his mind on the issue - assuming that such a thing is even conceivable - He would have made his will expressed, like He did originally

Theres no mind to change or stay the same on this issue because its not even in the bible...

Again, notice that I'm not arguing for JWs' interpretation. Believing that Christ did change His mind, problematic on its own, but failed to communicate it to mankind puts you in a deeper hole. Again, bear in mind I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, not even a Christian. I'm just recounting the internal logic behind the theology.

I get it, its just if anyone is going to put words in any historical figures mouth they should have some kind of quote or scholarly reasoning behind it. No one goes around making up rules for the natural world in science, no ones going to do it in the spiritual world either.



Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me.

Exactly.
2000 years later the statement resonates irresponsibility, childishness and delusion, like a gong. The only way for such radical injunction to hold true would have been for it to be immediately preceded by the end of the world, Armageddon, or a new system of things. Since none of that happened, it's merely a grandiloquent phrase hardly anyone takes to heart. Just imagine if all or even most Christians had indeed forsaken all things to follow Christ throughout history.

History would have been great...

We would still be living in sheds, caves, still harvesting and hunting. Progress and civilization run contrary to Christianity.

So its your position the bible is anti education correct?

The problem with that question is that it encompasses the entirety of the Bible. If your question were restricted to that passage alone, the answer would be a resounding yes. But I am ready to accept there are contradictions in the Bible, whereas you are not.

Which passage are you referring to that is anti education? I guess I missed that quote.



Do you honestly hold the teachings of Jesus and the bible in general to be bad for the world?

I think they're outright awful, a moral disaster and an obstacle to ethical progress.

So what are the flaws in say the 10 commandments or Jesus 2 commandments?

Feel free to start a new thread on this.
I might chime in.

I get that you apparently would be ok with murder

Which would mean you're at the very least distracted and at the most, with some probability , dishonest.

, being jealous of your neighbor and taking his things for yourself,

See above.

sleeping with married women

See above.

and ruining homes

See above.

but how is that productive?

Strawman detected.

All I did was pull from the 10 commandments... your the one who did say that they are bad for the world. But sure ill start a thread on that issue.

Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Yes, and in so it gains disturbing similarities' with Stalinism and North Korea.
In what manner?

Both are totalitarian ideologies.
Everythings a totalitarian ideology by that standard...

I hadn't offered a standard for totalitarianism yet, so you must be speaking about your own.

Here's the definition of totalitarianism:

(https://www.britannica.com...)

"Totalitarianism, form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of the individual"s life to the authority of the government.
"

So every government ever...

It's ironic how some Christians often describe their theology as more than just a religion, how it is a way of life, as it encompasses all aspects of it. In doing so, they are b

It cut you off here.
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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7/19/2016 6:36:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 4:44:37 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 4:43:43 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 4:33:11 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 11:04:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible. The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
Isn't it amazing how you believers can make yourself believe anything but the truth. That passage needs no interpretation it is completely straight forward. It is a command to hate.
None of the rest of the piffle you have presented alters that FACT. But you make sure you turn the verse into something it's not or else you'll go to hell when you die.

Thats an interesting response to a pursuit of better understanding. Guess your one of those anti education people.
Frightening ain't it?
Id say your rhetoric truely is.
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship. Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me. Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Nice response...

Never mind little one, you go on convincing yourself that hate means love and you won't end up in your mythical hell. We need to take care of you feeble minded.
So youv conceded the argument. Ok
No, I won the argument.
You claimed you could provide evidence in support of the biblical claim that the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt for 400yrs and you have failed completely.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Omniverse
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7/19/2016 8:58:12 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/19/2016 6:27:42 AM, bigotry wrote:
The verse itself.
And guess what, that's precisely their rationale, one that is binding on some 8 million people.

Feel free the make a justified connection anytime.

The fact you can't get it does not mean I haven't made a point.
Again,. let's put this in simpler terms, so perhaps there's a chance you get it this time around.

A. Christ tells us to put Him above all else, including family.
B. Christ is said to have stated, through the apostolic council at Jerusalem, that Christians should abstain from blood.
abstain from blood? You mean abstain from the drinking of blood like the local cults of the time?

You need to pay closer attention to what I write. I explicitly said that I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I am merely showing their internal logic.


C. In accordance with A and B, Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to accept blood transfusions and as tutors of their minor children, have them do the same.

A still doesn't qualify as a reason to not seek a blood transfusion. You haven't made a connection at all here...I again ask that when Jesus says to put him first how does this in any logical manner bar anyone from seeking medical treatment?

Again, it is entirely internally consistent. Provided you interpret the Acts verse as a ban that also encompasses blood transfusions, everything follows from there in an internally consistent manner.


I'd say it's straightforward. Notice I'm not passing judgement on the morality or scripturality of this interpretation. I am merely pointing out the fact such verse opens the door to such awful consequences.

I'm simply not seeing this door whatsoever.

Don't let it hit you when it swings back.



How would denying your child a blood transfusion be putting Christ first above the health of your own children?

1. Because verses such as those incite Christians to put their faith in the Lord above everything else.

What does that have to do with this?

See above.

2. Because they claim to have scriptural basis to abstain from blood transfusions.
Its nice to just say things but again that doesnt prove anything...

1 + 2 = They feel they are scripturally justified in putting Christ's will to have transfusions refused above the health of their children and themselves.
How do they know what his will is?

As Christians, they believe His will is expressed in the Bible. I'd say 99% of Christians hold the same view, albeit they reach different theological conclusions. The basic premise is shared by almost all Christians, though.

So which part of the bible bars a blood transfusion?

Read their literature or the book of Acts. I'm not going to promote their views here per se. Theirs are despicable views.

How do they know his will isnt to get the treatment?

Because had Christ changed his mind on the issue - assuming that such a thing is even conceivable - He would have made his will expressed, like He did originally

Theres no mind to change or stay the same on this issue because its not even in the bible...

You argue with them. Meaning, you Christians reach a consensus.


Again, notice that I'm not arguing for JWs' interpretation. Believing that Christ did change His mind, problematic on its own, but failed to communicate it to mankind puts you in a deeper hole. Again, bear in mind I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, not even a Christian. I'm just recounting the internal logic behind the theology.

I get it, its just if anyone is going to put words in any historical figures mouth they should have some kind of quote or scholarly reasoning behind it. No one goes around making up rules for the natural world in science, no ones going to do it in the spiritual world either.

That's another debate.




Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me.

Exactly.
2000 years later the statement resonates irresponsibility, childishness and delusion, like a gong. The only way for such radical injunction to hold true would have been for it to be immediately preceded by the end of the world, Armageddon, or a new system of things. Since none of that happened, it's merely a grandiloquent phrase hardly anyone takes to heart. Just imagine if all or even most Christians had indeed forsaken all things to follow Christ throughout history.

History would have been great...

We would still be living in sheds, caves, still harvesting and hunting. Progress and civilization run contrary to Christianity.

So its your position the bible is anti education correct?

The problem with that question is that it encompasses the entirety of the Bible. If your question were restricted to that passage alone, the answer would be a resounding yes. But I am ready to accept there are contradictions in the Bible, whereas you are not.

Which passage are you referring to that is anti education? I guess I missed that quote.

Please scroll up.




Do you honestly hold the teachings of Jesus and the bible in general to be bad for the world?

I think they're outright awful, a moral disaster and an obstacle to ethical progress.

So what are the flaws in say the 10 commandments or Jesus 2 commandments?

Feel free to start a new thread on this.
I might chime in.

I get that you apparently would be ok with murder

Which would mean you're at the very least distracted and at the most, with some probability , dishonest.

, being jealous of your neighbor and taking his things for yourself,

See above.

sleeping with married women

See above.

and ruining homes

See above.

but how is that productive?

Strawman detected.

All I did was pull from the 10 commandments... your the one who did say that they are bad for the world. But sure ill start a thread on that issue.

I did not say that all of the Ten Ccommandments are bad for the world.
Please pay attention.


Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Yes, and in so it gains disturbing similarities' with Stalinism and North Korea.
In what manner?

Both are totalitarian ideologies.
Everythings a totalitarian ideology by that standard...

I hadn't offered a standard for totalitarianism yet, so you must be speaking about your own.

Here's the definition of totalitarianism:

(https://www.britannica.com...)

"Totalitarianism, form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of the individual"s life to the authority of the government.
"

So every government ever...

I take it you're not well-versed in politics.
Got it.


It's ironic how some Christians often describe their theology as more than just a religion, how it is a way of life, as it encompasses all aspects of it. In doing so, they are b

It cut you off here.

Essentially I was saying that Christians do espouse a totalitarian doctrine and they admit it in their own words, when they talk about Christianity as a way of living that encompasses all things. Remember, at Armageddon God is supposed to be destroying at least half of mankind plus one, for not being worthy Christians.

Celestial Stalinism right there.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/19/2016 9:18:07 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/19/2016 6:36:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 4:44:37 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 4:43:43 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 4:33:11 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 11:04:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible. The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
Isn't it amazing how you believers can make yourself believe anything but the truth. That passage needs no interpretation it is completely straight forward. It is a command to hate.
None of the rest of the piffle you have presented alters that FACT. But you make sure you turn the verse into something it's not or else you'll go to hell when you die.

Thats an interesting response to a pursuit of better understanding. Guess your one of those anti education people.
Frightening ain't it?
Id say your rhetoric truely is.
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship. Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me. Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Nice response...

Never mind little one, you go on convincing yourself that hate means love and you won't end up in your mythical hell. We need to take care of you feeble minded.
So youv conceded the argument. Ok
No, I won the argument.
You claimed you could provide evidence in support of the biblical claim that the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt for 400yrs and you have failed completely.
your the one disagreeing with scholarly articles
bigotry
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7/19/2016 9:42:51 AM
Posted: 4 months ago

A. Christ tells us to put Him above all else, including family.
B. Christ is said to have stated, through the apostolic council at Jerusalem, that Christians should abstain from blood.
abstain from blood? You mean abstain from the drinking of blood like the local cults of the time?

You need to pay closer attention to what I write. I explicitly said that I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I am merely showing their internal logic.

I got ya, but again just arbitrarily saying a text says something that it doesn't, doesn't give way to putting words in its mouth.


C. In accordance with A and B, Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to accept blood transfusions and as tutors of their minor children, have them do the same.


Again, it is entirely internally consistent. Provided you interpret the Acts verse as a ban that also encompasses blood transfusions, everything follows from there in an internally consistent manner.

The acts verse is not a ban on anything, its a point. that point is to seek out God first.


I'd say it's straightforward. Notice I'm not passing judgement on the morality or scripturality of this interpretation. I am merely pointing out the fact such verse opens the door to such awful consequences.

I'm simply not seeing this door whatsoever.

Don't let it hit you when it swings back.

I don't think anyone would...


How would denying your child a blood transfusion be putting Christ first above the health of your own children?

1. Because verses such as those incite Christians to put their faith in the Lord above everything else.

What does that have to do with this?

See above.

2. Because they claim to have scriptural basis to abstain from blood transfusions.
Its nice to just say things but again that doesnt prove anything...

1 + 2 = They feel they are scripturally justified in putting Christ's will to have transfusions refused above the health of their children and themselves.
How do they know what his will is?

As Christians, they believe His will is expressed in the Bible. I'd say 99% of Christians hold the same view, albeit they reach different theological conclusions. The basic premise is shared by almost all Christians, though.

So which part of the bible bars a blood transfusion?

Read their literature or the book of Acts. I'm not going to promote their views here per se. Theirs are despicable views.

a quote?

How do they know his will isnt to get the treatment?

Because had Christ changed his mind on the issue - assuming that such a thing is even conceivable - He would have made his will expressed, like He did originally

Theres no mind to change or stay the same on this issue because its not even in the bible...

Your the one saying its possible to reach this conclusion. Just show how.

You argue with them. Meaning, you Christians reach a consensus.


Again, notice that I'm not arguing for JWs' interpretation. Believing that Christ did change His mind, problematic on its own, but failed to communicate it to mankind puts you in a deeper hole. Again, bear in mind I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, not even a Christian. I'm just recounting the internal logic behind the theology.

I get it, its just if anyone is going to put words in any historical figures mouth they should have some kind of quote or scholarly reasoning behind it. No one goes around making up rules for the natural world in science, no ones going to do it in the spiritual world either.

That's another debate.




Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me.

Exactly.
2000 years later the statement resonates irresponsibility, childishness and delusion, like a gong. The only way for such radical injunction to hold true would have been for it to be immediately preceded by the end of the world, Armageddon, or a new system of things. Since none of that happened, it's merely a grandiloquent phrase hardly anyone takes to heart. Just imagine if all or even most Christians had indeed forsaken all things to follow Christ throughout history.

History would have been great...

We would still be living in sheds, caves, still harvesting and hunting. Progress and civilization run contrary to Christianity.

So its your position the bible is anti education correct?

The problem with that question is that it encompasses the entirety of the Bible. If your question were restricted to that passage alone, the answer would be a resounding yes. But I am ready to accept there are contradictions in the Bible, whereas you are not.

Which passage are you referring to that is anti education? I guess I missed that quote.

Please scroll up.




Do you honestly hold the teachings of Jesus and the bible in general to be bad for the world?

I think they're outright awful, a moral disaster and an obstacle to ethical progress.

So what are the flaws in say the 10 commandments or Jesus 2 commandments?

Feel free to start a new thread on this.
I might chime in.

I get that you apparently would be ok with murder

Which would mean you're at the very least distracted and at the most, with some probability , dishonest.

, being jealous of your neighbor and taking his things for yourself,

See above.

sleeping with married women

See above.

and ruining homes

See above.

but how is that productive?

Strawman detected.

All I did was pull from the 10 commandments... your the one who did say that they are bad for the world. But sure ill start a thread on that issue.

I did not say that all of the Ten Ccommandments are bad for the world.
Please pay attention.

Which one is?


Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Yes, and in so it gains disturbing similarities' with Stalinism and North Korea.
In what manner?

Both are totalitarian ideologies.
Everythings a totalitarian ideology by that standard...

I hadn't offered a standard for totalitarianism yet, so you must be speaking about your own.

Here's the definition of totalitarianism:

(https://www.britannica.com...)

"Totalitarianism, form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of the individual"s life to the authority of the government.
"

So every government ever...

I take it you're not well-versed in politics.
Got it.

If you don't understand that point then your far from it yourself




Essentially I was saying that Christians do espouse a totalitarian doctrine and they admit it in their own words, when they talk about Christianity as a way of living that en

Well of course it is, just like EVERYTHING else. Can you name a real world system that exists right now that isn't? religious or political?
As to the end of the world scenario, its a time of absolute lawlessness. They have it commin.
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
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7/19/2016 11:03:36 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/19/2016 9:18:07 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/19/2016 6:36:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 4:44:37 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 4:43:43 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 4:33:11 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/18/2016 11:04:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:48:23 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:14:57 PM, bulproof wrote:
There isn't a godbotherer frequenting this site that believes what the bible says.
For instance do any of you believe and adhere to these alleged words of your alleged Jesus?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Its always entertaining to see a nice internet interpretation of the bible. The point here is rhetorical. If you put any kind of effort you would have finished his own explanation to the above statement:
Isn't it amazing how you believers can make yourself believe anything but the truth. That passage needs no interpretation it is completely straight forward. It is a command to hate.
None of the rest of the piffle you have presented alters that FACT. But you make sure you turn the verse into something it's not or else you'll go to hell when you die.

Thats an interesting response to a pursuit of better understanding. Guess your one of those anti education people.
Frightening ain't it?
Id say your rhetoric truely is.
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it" 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, "This man began to build and was not able to finish"? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

The point is that anything in your life that will cause you have conflict with your faith putting Jesus in a #2 position keeps you from his discipleship. Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me. Even if your own family will keep you from Jesus its advised you have nothing to do with them. This is the meaning.

Nice response...

Never mind little one, you go on convincing yourself that hate means love and you won't end up in your mythical hell. We need to take care of you feeble minded.
So youv conceded the argument. Ok
No, I won the argument.
You claimed you could provide evidence in support of the biblical claim that the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt for 400yrs and you have failed completely.
your the one disagreeing with scholarly articles
You have provided no articles proving the existence of Hebrews being enslaved for 400yrs in Egypt.
You can't.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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7/19/2016 11:15:57 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/19/2016 9:42:51 AM, bigotry wrote:

Again, it is entirely internally consistent. Provided you interpret the Acts verse as a ban that also encompasses blood transfusions, everything follows from there in an internally consistent manner.

The acts verse is not a ban on anything, its a point. that point is to seek out God first.

Here you go:

Acts 15:29 ( http://biblehub.com... )

"
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
"



I'd say it's straightforward. Notice I'm not passing judgement on the morality or scripturality of this interpretation. I am merely pointing out the fact such verse opens the door to such awful consequences.

I'm simply not seeing this door whatsoever.

Don't let it hit you when it swings back.

I don't think anyone would...


How would denying your child a blood transfusion be putting Christ first above the health of your own children?

1. Because verses such as those incite Christians to put their faith in the Lord above everything else.

What does that have to do with this?

See above.

2. Because they claim to have scriptural basis to abstain from blood transfusions.
Its nice to just say things but again that doesnt prove anything...

1 + 2 = They feel they are scripturally justified in putting Christ's will to have transfusions refused above the health of their children and themselves.
How do they know what his will is?

As Christians, they believe His will is expressed in the Bible. I'd say 99% of Christians hold the same view, albeit they reach different theological conclusions. The basic premise is shared by almost all Christians, though.

So which part of the bible bars a blood transfusion?

Read their literature or the book of Acts. I'm not going to promote their views here per se. Theirs are despicable views.

a quote?

Do your own homework.


How do they know his will isnt to get the treatment?

Because had Christ changed his mind on the issue - assuming that such a thing is even conceivable - He would have made his will expressed, like He did originally

Theres no mind to change or stay the same on this issue because its not even in the bible...

Your the one saying its possible to reach this conclusion. Just show how.

"Abstain from Blood" - could theoretically be read as abstain from [all forms of putting] blood [back into the body].


You argue with them. Meaning, you Christians reach a consensus.


Again, notice that I'm not arguing for JWs' interpretation. Believing that Christ did change His mind, problematic on its own, but failed to communicate it to mankind puts you in a deeper hole. Again, bear in mind I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, not even a Christian. I'm just recounting the internal logic behind the theology.

I get it, its just if anyone is going to put words in any historical figures mouth they should have some kind of quote or scholarly reasoning behind it. No one goes around making up rules for the natural world in science, no ones going to do it in the spiritual world either.

That's another debate.




Jesus time and time again told people things along the lines of drop everything your doing now and follow me.

Exactly.
2000 years later the statement resonates irresponsibility, childishness and delusion, like a gong. The only way for such radical injunction to hold true would have been for it to be immediately preceded by the end of the world, Armageddon, or a new system of things. Since none of that happened, it's merely a grandiloquent phrase hardly anyone takes to heart. Just imagine if all or even most Christians had indeed forsaken all things to follow Christ throughout history.

History would have been great...

We would still be living in sheds, caves, still harvesting and hunting. Progress and civilization run contrary to Christianity.

So its your position the bible is anti education correct?

The problem with that question is that it encompasses the entirety of the Bible. If your question were restricted to that passage alone, the answer would be a resounding yes. But I am ready to accept there are contradictions in the Bible, whereas you are not.

Which passage are you referring to that is anti education? I guess I missed that quote.

Please scroll up.




Do you honestly hold the teachings of Jesus and the bible in general to be bad for the world?

I think they're outright awful, a moral disaster and an obstacle to ethical progress.

So what are the flaws in say the 10 commandments or Jesus 2 commandments?

Feel free to start a new thread on this.
I might chime in.

I get that you apparently would be ok with murder

Which would mean you're at the very least distracted and at the most, with some probability , dishonest.

, being jealous of your neighbor and taking his things for yourself,

See above.

sleeping with married women

See above.

and ruining homes

See above.

but how is that productive?

Strawman detected.

All I did was pull from the 10 commandments... your the one who did say that they are bad for the world. But sure ill start a thread on that issue.

I did not say that all of the Ten Commandments are bad for the world.
Please pay attention.

Which one is?

The central message of the Bible is.

(https://www.britannica.com...)

"Totalitarianism, form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of the individual"s life to the authority of the government.
"

So every government ever...

I take it you're not well-versed in politics.
Got it.

If you don't understand that point then your far from it yourself

Again, you're not well-versed in politics and it shows. Please review the birth of liberalism and the famous adage in French: "laissez-faire, laissez-passer", which is the exact opposite of Totalitarianism.

Essentially I was saying that Christians do espouse a totalitarian doctrine and they admit it in their own words, when they talk about Christianity as a way of living that en

Well of course it is, just like EVERYTHING else.

Again, NO.

Theta's no point of doctrine in Marxism which states, for example, that homosexuality is out of the question, in what circumstances you can divorce someone, how you should dress, there's no thought-crime like in the Bible, etc. Plus, again, at Armageddon, anyone who opposes God's theocracy will be killed.

Doesn't get much more totalitarian than that.

Can you name a real world system that exists right now that isn't? religious or political?

I'm sorry, but I have to be blunt here. You are simply overly ignorant on the topic, to a point where no meaningful debate can be held without you first brushing on the rudiments.

No western democracy can be adequately described as totalitarian. P