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Jesus - God or not?

Airaux2
Posts: 51
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7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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7/17/2016 7:18:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

Jesus says God is greater than him and that there is only one true God. I recommend believing him. :)

You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

http://www.kolumbus.fi...
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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7/17/2016 9:55:38 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Our faith in The Ultimate Reality is through The Most Perfect Image, by The Spirit of Truth.

That is the meaning of the trinity. It's not a declaration on the nature of God, it's a declaration on our relationship with God. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. God is One, incomparable, and without equal. God is very Unique.

The commandment is Love from a pure heart, good conscience, and sincere faith. Those who truly love God will struggle for God.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Airaux2
Posts: 51
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7/17/2016 11:05:14 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Fair point, but I've heard from many trinitarians that things spoken of or by Jesus refer to his temporary rank on Earth. There is much in the New Testament - including that which corresponds to the Old Testament - especially in John's material that makes parallels between Christ and God - eg - in Revelation - the Alpha and the Omega.
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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7/17/2016 11:22:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I think the intention of The Gospel of John is to show how Jesus relates to God with a spirit of truth. It reveals something about the character of Jesus, or who is speaking.

The Name Jesus has been sanctified, so Christians use the name "Jesus" for God as well, as we are talking about "The Word", the word being "God", which means "The Ultimate Reality". The meaning of the name is what is important. There is power in naming, and so the meaning of names is what is most important in theology. Some people take these names as being arbitrary pronouncements of syllables, but this is in fact not the case.

The name Jesus means, "God's Salvation" or "Grace of Truth", or "The Truth will set you free" or "The Ultimate Reality Saves", or a multitude of names. There are bunch of them, but they have one thing in common. They point to the fact that salvation is not done apart from one's relationship with God. In this, creation has been sanctified, saved, and blessed by The Creator.

And in the realization of God, the day of resurrection is revealed, and salvation witnessed.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
foxxhajti
Posts: 479
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7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say something along the lines of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.'"
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...
"It's interesting to observe that almost all truly worthy men have simple manners, and that simple manners are almost always taken as a sign of little worth" - Giacomo Leopardi

"It is more honorable to be raised to a throne than to be born to one. Fortune bestows the one, merit obtains the other." - Francesco Petrarca

"You too must not count too much on your reality as you feel it today, since like yesterday, it may prove an illusion for you tomorrow." - Luigi Pirandello
Airaux2
Posts: 51
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7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views. At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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7/18/2016 7:03:34 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 9:55:38 PM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
Our faith in The Ultimate Reality is through The Most Perfect Image, by The Spirit of Truth.

That is the meaning of the trinity. It's not a declaration on the nature of God, it's a declaration on our relationship with God. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. God is One, incomparable, and without equal. God is very Unique.

The commandment is Love from a pure heart, good conscience, and sincere faith. Those who truly love God will struggle for God.

Or are they just more of your lies?
foxxhajti
Posts: 479
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7/18/2016 9:34:00 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views. At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

You're welcome. :)
"It's interesting to observe that almost all truly worthy men have simple manners, and that simple manners are almost always taken as a sign of little worth" - Giacomo Leopardi

"It is more honorable to be raised to a throne than to be born to one. Fortune bestows the one, merit obtains the other." - Francesco Petrarca

"You too must not count too much on your reality as you feel it today, since like yesterday, it may prove an illusion for you tomorrow." - Luigi Pirandello
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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7/18/2016 2:01:20 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views.

Why do you need people? Why not just believe what the Bible says?

At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

Like what?
seeu46
Posts: 578
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7/18/2016 2:07:12 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Jesus is God.

Though the human form Jesus was just temporary for our sake to save us.

Jesus made some certain claims in the new testament that cannot be denied that is for sure.

Jesus said he came from above and he is not from Earth.

Jesus said he existed before he was born on Earth.

Jesus said how did King David call him Lord, if the Christ was just David's son.

Jesus called himself the Good Shepherd and yet when he was called Good, he stated why do you call me Good for God alone is good.

Jesus said if you have seen him you have seen God.

So you really have to put it all together to understand the context of his claims.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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7/18/2016 2:34:17 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views. At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

The trinity is just a concept to explain the different functions and roles Jesus believed and taught. He believe in God the father, he was God the son and the HS the third leg. His holy delusion was the answer to how God could be several things at the same time. God, man and comforter. Separate Jesus from his delusions and all you are left is a carpenters son who never married and was unemployed all his life. The trinity concept was just as important to Jesus as it is for those who share his delusions.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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7/18/2016 3:25:04 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 2:34:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views. At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

The trinity is just a concept to explain the different functions and roles Jesus believed and taught. He believe in God the father, he was God the son and the HS the third leg. His holy delusion was the answer to how God could be several things at the same time. God, man and comforter. Separate Jesus from his delusions and all you are left is a carpenters son who never married and was unemployed all his life. The trinity concept was just as important to Jesus as it is for those who share his delusions.

So you mock the concepts Jesus teaches with clarity yet ignore the same concepts taught within your own religion just because you happen to be "Hindu"? what a smug loser that needs a little light shined in his dungeon of a soul.
"The god Shiva is part of the Hindu Trinity, along with Vishnu and Brahma." So...I guess you've applied the same standards to Hinduism? or is this all just a vendetta of yours?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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7/18/2016 3:32:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 3:25:04 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 2:34:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views. At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

The trinity is just a concept to explain the different functions and roles Jesus believed and taught. He believed in God the father, he was God the son and the HS the third leg. His holy delusion was the answer to how God could be several things at the same time. God, man and comforter. Separate Jesus from his delusions and all you are left is a carpenters son who never married and was unemployed all his life. The trinity concept was just as important to Jesus as it is for those who share his delusions.

So you mock the concepts Jesus teaches with clarity yet ignore the same concepts taught within your own religion just because you happen to be "Hindu"? what a smug loser that needs a little light shined in his dungeon of a soul.
"The god Shiva is part of the Hindu Trinity, along with Vishnu and Brahma." So...I guess you've applied the same standards to Hinduism? or is this all just a vendetta of yours?

There is a difference. Shiva, Vushnu and Brahma are not the delusional believes of an individual proclaiming to be all three.
The trinity is just a concept to explain the different functions and roles Jesus believed and taught. He believed in God the father, he was God the son and the HS the third leg. His holy delusion was the answer to how God could be several things at the same time. God, man and comforter. Separate Jesus from his delusions and all you are left is a carpenters son who never married and was unemployed all his life. The trinity concept was just as important to Jesus as it is for those who share his delusions.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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7/18/2016 3:41:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

academically Jesus being God evolved over time to reach that status. biblically its so easy to prove Jesus never claimed dvinity and he rejected it. i have plenty of reasons. if u want to watch good debate here one https://www.youtube.com....

Ahmed Deedat was a debater and he is very famous in the muslim world... he used to debate on the subjects like is Jesus God/is the Bible Gods word/was Jesus crucified... i know u will like him. here 1 reason that is enouth that Jesus rejected dvinity when the Jews accused him that he is claiming to be God. https://www.youtube.com...
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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7/18/2016 3:52:25 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 2:07:12 PM, seeu46 wrote:
Jesus is God.

Though the human form Jesus was just temporary for our sake to save us.

Jesus made some certain claims in the new testament that cannot be denied that is for sure.

Jesus said he came from above and he is not from Earth.

Jesus said he existed before he was born on Earth.

Jesus said how did King David call him Lord, if the Christ was just David's son.

Jesus called himself the Good Shepherd and yet when he was called Good, he stated why do you call me Good for God alone is good.

Jesus said if you have seen him you have seen God.


So you really have to put it all together to understand the context of his claims.

lol and in his entire life he didnt say he is God. he forgot that and not the other stuff u bring. secondly u have to look in every passage in its context.
Never fart near dog
Airaux2
Posts: 51
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7/18/2016 4:08:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 2:01:20 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views.

Why do you need people? Why not just believe what the Bible says?

At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

Like what?

"Believing what the Bible says" has resulted in innumerable Christian denominations and sects, believing in adhering to a multitude of contrary doctrines and combinations of doctrines throughout history - often resulting in draconian royal punishments and untold violence. One can use the Bible - especially the NT - to whole-hearted lay believe any number of contrary beliefs.
If one is sincerely interested in the truth, one needs to carefully read the Bible, comparing texts with other relevant texts, availing oneself with other appropriately knowledgeable people, taking care to understand the meaning and context of the original language, etc..
There is no quick, simply way to truth from the Bible - it takes thoughtful, careful procedure. A casual, simplistic perusal could be unspeakably dangerous.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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7/18/2016 4:18:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 2:01:20 PM, ethang5 wrote:
Why do you need people? Why not just believe what the Bible says?
Well obviously if you don't believe the the Catholic book of Scripture (Bible) then you can't be a christian.
seeu46
Posts: 578
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7/18/2016 4:21:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 3:52:25 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 7/18/2016 2:07:12 PM, seeu46 wrote:
Jesus is God.

Though the human form Jesus was just temporary for our sake to save us.

Jesus made some certain claims in the new testament that cannot be denied that is for sure.

Jesus said he came from above and he is not from Earth.

Jesus said he existed before he was born on Earth.

Jesus said how did King David call him Lord, if the Christ was just David's son.

Jesus called himself the Good Shepherd and yet when he was called Good, he stated why do you call me Good for God alone is good.

Jesus said if you have seen him you have seen God.


So you really have to put it all together to understand the context of his claims.

lol and in his entire life he didnt say he is God. he forgot that and not the other stuff u bring. secondly u have to look in every passage in its context.

lol and in his entire life he did not say he is not God. He forgot that and not the stuff you say or bring. Secondly you have to look at the context. You ignore the context.

You ignore that he stated he would give his life as a 'ransom' for many.

Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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7/18/2016 5:03:13 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 4:08:06 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/18/2016 2:01:20 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views.

Why do you need people? Why not just believe what the Bible says?

At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

Like what?

"Believing what the Bible says" has resulted in innumerable Christian denominations and sects,

Not only is this untrue, it is illogical. Let me give you an example. The Bible says,

"The soul that sins, it shall die.
Catholics say, the soul is immortal.

What does the Bible say about the soul here? The reason why 9 year olds are more often correct in answering this question than 40 year olds has to do with sincerity and not intelligence.

Your problem is that anyone giving any interpretation of the Bible is for you, equally valid. I have not dispensed with reason, so I need not be hemmed in by silliness. Not believing what the Bible says is what has resulted in innumerable Christian denominations and sects.

One can use the Bible - especially the NT - to whole-hearted lay believe any number of contrary beliefs.

Untrue. Words have real meaning. The only way for your claim above to be true is to illogically accept every "interpretation" of the Bible as equally valid. Only the stupid, the insincere, and the deceptive do that.

If one is sincerely interested in the truth, one needs to carefully read the Bible, comparing texts with other relevant texts,....

That is all one needs.

..... availing oneself with other appropriately knowledgeable people, taking care to understand the meaning and context of the original language, etc.

Baloney. That is where all the silly interpretations and denominations come from. God wants people who are contrite and have a broken spirit. Sincerity is all it takes.

There is no quick, simply way to truth from the Bible - it takes thoughtful, careful procedure. A casual, simplistic perusal could be unspeakably dangerous.

Well, the Bible is a dangerous book..... for tyrants, and demagogues. That is why the Gods of this world have struggled to get the young not to read it. The Bible is dangerous only to the enemies of Christ. But to us who believe, it contains the words of life.
Airaux2
Posts: 51
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7/18/2016 6:38:31 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 5:03:13 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 7/18/2016 4:08:06 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/18/2016 2:01:20 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views.

Why do you need people? Why not just believe what the Bible says?

At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

Like what?

"Believing what the Bible says" has resulted in innumerable Christian denominations and sects,

Not only is this untrue, it is illogical. Let me give you an example. The Bible says,

"The soul that sins, it shall die.
Catholics say, the soul is immortal.

What does the Bible say about the soul here? The reason why 9 year olds are more often correct in answering this question than 40 year olds has to do with sincerity and not intelligence.

Your problem is that anyone giving any interpretation of the Bible is for you, equally valid. I have not dispensed with reason, so I need not be hemmed in by silliness. Not believing what the Bible says is what has resulted in innumerable Christian denominations and sects.

One can use the Bible - especially the NT - to whole-hearted lay believe any number of contrary beliefs.

Untrue. Words have real meaning. The only way for your claim above to be true is to illogically accept every "interpretation" of the Bible as equally valid. Only the stupid, the insincere, and the deceptive do that.

If one is sincerely interested in the truth, one needs to carefully read the Bible, comparing texts with other relevant texts,....

That is all one needs.

..... availing oneself with other appropriately knowledgeable people, taking care to understand the meaning and context of the original language, etc.

Baloney. That is where all the silly interpretations and denominations come from. God wants people who are contrite and have a broken spirit. Sincerity is all it takes.

There is no quick, simply way to truth from the Bible - it takes thoughtful, careful procedure. A casual, simplistic perusal could be unspeakably dangerous.

Well, the Bible is a dangerous book..... for tyrants, and demagogues. That is why the Gods of this world have struggled to get the young not to read it. The Bible is dangerous only to the enemies of Christ. But to us who believe, it contains the words of life.

I've read my message and need to clarify some points. First, there were some typo errors owing to the 'net mispredicting my words and me not picking up on it. What I said may not have been clear.
Contrary to what may have seemed otherwise, when I said "Believing what the Bible says", I did not mean to imply that the results mentioned were caused by one believing the Bible; rather by one believing it tritely and simplistically. It needs a more thorough approach, as I stated. The illogical acceptance of every interpretation offered (a very naive and dangerous idea) is not the only cause of contrary beliefs. The chaotic morass of different Christian beliefs throughout the World is based on false reasoning by, I believe, largely sincere people. People who are "sure" of what the Bible are ten a penny.
When I spoke of referencing others' opinions, etc., I didn't mean to imply that one should naively accept what extra-biblical sources say either; rather that it requires diligence, thought, endeavor to make a careful study of the evidence - and that probably necessitates seeking other credible sources - eg - experts in relevant languages. The World is and always has been full of sincere, wrong, people. Sincerity is NOT all it takes!
It IS dangerous to misinterpret the Bible. One doctrine in dispute is that of Hell - whether it's a place of conscious torture. If this is true, one cannot afford to be casual in one's theology. It's dangerous not only to those who deliberately oppose God; but also those who are wrong in their road to find the Savior. Do you really believe that it's so unlikely for a sincere person to be wrong?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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7/18/2016 6:42:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 3:32:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 3:25:04 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 2:34:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views. At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

The trinity is just a concept to explain the different functions and roles Jesus believed and taught. He believed in God the father, he was God the son and the HS the third leg. His holy delusion was the answer to how God could be several things at the same time. God, man and comforter. Separate Jesus from his delusions and all you are left is a carpenters son who never married and was unemployed all his life. The trinity concept was just as important to Jesus as it is for those who share his delusions.

So you mock the concepts Jesus teaches with clarity yet ignore the same concepts taught within your own religion just because you happen to be "Hindu"? what a smug loser that needs a little light shined in his dungeon of a soul.
"The god Shiva is part of the Hindu Trinity, along with Vishnu and Brahma." So...I guess you've applied the same standards to Hinduism? or is this all just a vendetta of yours?

There is a difference. Shiva, Vushnu and Brahma are not the delusional believes of an individual proclaiming to be all three.


Then what do they claim? "all three" just means they function as one, act as one with the same mind and purpose, it's called unity...how can you not comprehend that simple concept? It's equality, no confusion there.
However, why do you...get to claim who and what is delusional? how do you know it wasn't your nutty Hindu gurus that were delusional?
So we have some variation within this trinity concept and you get all bent out of shape and start labeling people delusional, among other things. Sorry, you don't get to claim who is delusional, well, you can claim it but it can be dismissed and thrown into the trash bin.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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7/18/2016 9:54:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 6:42:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 3:32:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 3:25:04 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 2:34:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views. At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

The trinity is just a concept to explain the different functions and roles Jesus believed and taught. He believed in God the father, he was God the son and the HS the third leg. His holy delusion was the answer to how God could be several things at the same time. God, man and comforter. Separate Jesus from his delusions and all you are left is a carpenters son who never married and was unemployed all his life. The trinity concept was just as important to Jesus as it is for those who share his delusions.

So you mock the concepts Jesus teaches with clarity yet ignore the same concepts taught within your own religion just because you happen to be "Hindu"? what a smug loser that needs a little light shined in his dungeon of a soul.
"The god Shiva is part of the Hindu Trinity, along with Vishnu and Brahma." So...I guess you've applied the same standards to Hinduism? or is this all just a vendetta of yours?

There is a difference. Shiva, Vushnu and Brahma are not the delusional believes of an individual proclaiming to be all three.


Then what do they claim? "all three" just means they function as one, act as one with the same mind and purpose, it's called unity...how can you not comprehend that simple concept? It's equality, no confusion there.
However, why do you...get to claim who and what is delusional? how do you know it wasn't your nutty Hindu gurus that were delusional?
So we have some variation within this trinity concept and you get all bent out of shape and start labeling people delusional, among other things. Sorry, you don't get to claim who is delusional, well, you can claim it but it can be dismissed and thrown into the trash bin.

Why don't we turn to the experts for their diagnostic about what Jesus suffered from. His condition can be found in the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders,)

Psychiatry calls Jesus a paranoid schizophrenic, Supraphrenic!

Sept. 2012: "Jesus" experiences can be potentially conceptualized within the framework of Paranoid Schizophrenia or Psychosis NOS. Other reasonable possibilities might include bipolar and schizoaffective disorders. " hyperreligiosity " Suicide-by-proxy is described as "any incident in which a suicidal individual causes his or her death to be carried out by another person. " a Supraphrenic" (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, Evan D. Murray, M.D. Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D. Bruce H. Price, M.D., The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 2012;

Observations Upon the Diseases of the Mind, Benjamin Rush 1812 AD, p122)
A. Today, Psychiatry diagnoses Jesus with schizophrenia:
"In short, the nature of the hallucinations of Jesus, as they are described in the orthodox Gospels, permits us to conclude that the founder of the Christian religion was afflicted with religious paranoia." (Charles Binet-Sangl", La Folie de J"sus, The Madness of Jesus, 1910, p 393)
"Everything that we know about him [Jesus] conforms so perfectly to the clinical picture of paranoia that it is hardly conceivable that people can even question the accuracy of the diagnosis."(American psychiatrist William Hirsch, Conclusions of a Psychiatrist, 1912, p 99)
"Jesus Christ might simply have returned to his carpentry following the use of modern [psychiatric] treatments." (William Sargant, "The movement in psychiatry away from the philosophical," The Times (English), 22 August 1974, p 14)
"For example, as we will show, a materialist readily believes-without any reliable evidence whatsoever-that great spiritual leaders suffer from temporal-lobe epilepsy rather than that they have spiritual experiences that inspire others as well as themselves." (The Spiritual Brain, Mario Beauregard Ph.D., Neuroscientist, 2007, p xii)

c. "JESUS: The New Testament (NT) recalls Jesus as having experienced and shown behavior closely resembling the DSM-IV-TR"defined phenomena of Auditory Hallucinations, Visual Hallucinations, delusions, referential thinking (see Figure 3), paranoid-type (Paranoid Schizophrenic subtype) thought content, and hyperreligiosity " In terms of potential causes of perceptual and behavioral changes, it might be asked whether starvation and metabolic derangements were present. The hallucinatory-like experiences that Jesus had in the desert while he fasted for 40 days (Luke 4:1"13) may have been induced by starvation and metabolic derangements. " The absence of physical maladies or apparent epilepsy leaves primary psychiatric etiologies as more plausible. As seen with the previous cases, Jesus" experiences can be potentially conceptualized within the framework of Paranoid Schizophrenia or Psychosis Not Otherwise Specified. Other reasonable possibilities might include bipolar and schizoaffective disorders. There is a 5%-10% lifetime risk of suicide in persons with schizophrenia. Suicide is defined as a self-inflicted death with evidence of an intention to end one"s life. The New Testament recounts Jesus" awareness that people intended to kill him and his taking steps to avoid peril until the time at which he permitted his apprehension. In advance, he explained to his followers the necessity of his death as prelude for his return (Matthew 16:21"28; Mark 8:31; John 16:16"28). If this occurred in the manner described, then Jesus appears to have deliberately placed himself in circumstances wherein he anticipated his execution. Although schizophrenia is associated with an increased risk of suicide, this would not be a typical case. The more common mood-disorder accompaniments of suicide, such as depression, hopelessness, and social isolation, were not present, but other risk factors, such as age and male gender, were present. Suicide-by-proxy is described as "any incident in which a suicidal individual causes his or her death to be carried out by another person." There is a potential parallel of Jesus" beliefs and behavior leading up to his death to that of one who premeditates a form of suicide-by-proxy." (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, Evan D. Murray, M.D. Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D. Bruce H. Price, M.D., The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 2012; 24:410-426)
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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7/20/2016 10:28:06 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 6:38:31 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/18/2016 5:03:13 PM, ethang5 wrote:

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views.

Why do you need people? Why not just believe what the Bible says?

At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

Like what?

"Believing what the Bible says" has resulted in innumerable Christian denominations and sects,

Not only is this untrue, it is illogical. Let me give you an example. The Bible says,

"The soul that sins, it shall die.
Catholics say, the soul is immortal.

What does the Bible say about the soul here? The reason why 9 year olds are more often correct in answering this question than 40 year olds has to do with sincerity and not intelligence.

Your problem is that anyone giving any interpretation of the Bible is for you, equally valid. I have not dispensed with reason, so I need not be hemmed in by silliness. Not believing what the Bible says is what has resulted in innumerable Christian denominations and sects.

One can use the Bible - especially the NT - to whole-hearted lay believe any number of contrary beliefs.

Untrue. Words have real meaning. The only way for your claim above to be true is to illogically accept every "interpretation" of the Bible as equally valid. Only the stupid, the insincere, and the deceptive do that.

If one is sincerely interested in the truth, one needs to carefully read the Bible, comparing texts with other relevant texts,....

That is all one needs.

..... availing oneself with other appropriately knowledgeable people, taking care to understand the meaning and context of the original language, etc.

Baloney. That is where all the silly interpretations and denominations come from. God wants people who are contrite and have a broken spirit. Sincerity is all it takes.

There is no quick, simply way to truth from the Bible - it takes thoughtful, careful procedure. A casual, simplistic perusal could be unspeakably dangerous.

Well, the Bible is a dangerous book..... for tyrants, and demagogues. That is why the Gods of this world have struggled to get the young not to read it. The Bible is dangerous only to the enemies of Christ. But to us who believe, it contains the words of life.

I've read my message and need to clarify some points. First, there were some typo errors owing to the 'net mispredicting my words and me not picking up on it. What I said may not have been clear.

Ok. Clarity is always good.

Contrary to what may have seemed otherwise, when I said "Believing what the Bible says", I did not mean to imply that the results mentioned were caused by one believing the Bible; rather by one believing it tritely and simplistically.

What is the difference in believing tritely and believing seriously? How does one believe something tritely?

It needs a more thorough approach, as I stated. The illogical acceptance of every interpretation offered (a very naive and dangerous idea) is not the only cause of contrary beliefs.

If you know this, how come you think you must accept the thoughts of every claimant?

The chaotic morass of different Christian beliefs throughout the World is based on false reasoning by, I believe, largely sincere people. People who are "sure" of what the Bible are ten a penny.

But opposing views have nothing to do with your problem, unless you see yourself as charged with resolving the chaotic morass. Do you? How do ten a penny people who are "sure" of what the Bible says hinder you from finding out what the Bible actually says? Can you read?

When I spoke of referencing others' opinions, etc., I didn't mean to imply that one should naively accept what extra-biblical sources say either; rather that it requires diligence, thought, endeavor to make a careful study of the evidence - and that probably necessitates seeking other credible sources - eg - experts in relevant languages.

You think a person approaching the Bible needs a Hebrew scholar to be able to understand the message within it?

The World is and always has been full of sincere, wrong, people. Sincerity is NOT all it takes!

All it takes for what? The purpose of the Bible is to tell people of the plan of salvation in such a way as to convince them that they are in danger of judgement for sin and that God has provided a way out.

The Bible has been so successful at this that it's influence on the world cannot be overstated. The overwhelming majority of converts have not had access to scholars of other languages or learned historians. Sincerity was all it took to make them understand enough to accept Christianity and convert.

Jer 29:13 - And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

It IS dangerous to misinterpret the Bible. One doctrine in dispute is that of Hell - whether it's a place of conscious torture. If this is true, one cannot afford to be casual in one's theology. It's dangerous not only to those who deliberately oppose God; but also those who are wrong in their road to find the Savior. Do you really believe that it's so unlikely for a sincere person to be wrong?

I did not say sincere people are always right. I said all one needs to find God is sincerity. If a seeker is sincere, he will find God. And it is a process. Some of the most learned Biblical scholars are non-christian, and some of the most devout Christians are unlearned. Intelligence can help, but sincerity is more likely to lead one to God than academic study.

1Co 1:26 - For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
1Co 1:27 - But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 - and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
1Co 1:29 - that no flesh should glory in His presence.
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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7/20/2016 11:29:01 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Either Jesus Christ (pbuh) is contradicting himself or someone else is claiming divinity for him.
John 14:28 "... my Father is greater than I."
John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all."
Matthew 19:16-17 "Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, 'Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?' Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
John 14:24 "These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Book of Acts 2:22 "Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."
Peace.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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7/20/2016 12:45:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 9:54:06 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:42:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 3:32:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 3:25:04 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 2:34:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."


Why don't we turn to the experts for their diagnostic about what Jesus suffered from. His condition can be found in the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders,)


Psychiatry calls Jesus a paranoid schizophrenic, Supraphrenic!

Sept. 2012: "Jesus" experiences can be potentially conceptualized within the framework of Paranoid Schizophrenia or Psychosis NOS. Other reasonable possibilities might include bipolar and schizoaffective disorders. " hyperreligiosity " Suicide-by-proxy is described as "any incident in which a suicidal individual causes his or her death to be carried out by another person. " a Supraphrenic" (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, Evan D. Murray, M.D. Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D. Bruce H. Price, M.D., The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 2012;

Observations Upon the Diseases of the Mind, Benjamin Rush 1812 AD, p122)
A. Today, Psychiatry diagnoses Jesus with schizophrenia:
"In short, the nature of the hallucinations of Jesus, as they are described in the orthodox Gospels, permits us to conclude that the founder of the Christian religion was afflicted with religious paranoia." (Charles Binet-Sangl", La Folie de J"sus, The Madness of Jesus, 1910, p 393)
"Everything that we know about him [Jesus] conforms so perfectly to the clinical picture of paranoia that it is hardly conceivable that people can even question the accuracy of the diagnosis."(American psychiatrist William Hirsch, Conclusions of a Psychiatrist, 1912, p 99)
"Jesus Christ might simply have returned to his carpentry following the use of modern [psychiatric] treatments." (William Sargant, "The movement in psychiatry away from the philosophical," The Times (English), 22 August 1974, p 14)
"For example, as we will show, a materialist readily believes-without any reliable evidence whatsoever-that great spiritual leaders suffer from temporal-lobe epilepsy rather than that they have spiritual experiences that inspire others as well as themselves." (The Spiritual Brain, Mario Beauregard Ph.D., Neuroscientist, 2007, p xii)

c. "JESUS: The New Testament (NT) recalls Jesus as having experienced and shown behavior closely resembling the DSM-IV-TR"defined phenomena of Auditory Hallucinations, Visual Hallucinations, delusions, referential thinking (see Figure 3), paranoid-type (Paranoid Schizophrenic subtype) thought content, and hyperreligiosity " In terms of potential causes of perceptual and behavioral changes, it might be asked whether starvation and metabolic derangements were present. The hallucinatory-like experiences that Jesus had in the desert while he fasted for 40 days (Luke 4:1"13) may have been induced by starvation and metabolic derangements. " The absence of physical maladies or apparent epilepsy leaves primary psychiatric etiologies as more plausible. As seen with the previous cases, Jesus" experiences can be potentially conceptualized within the framework of Paranoid Schizophrenia or Psychosis Not Otherwise Specified. Other reasonable possibilities might include bipolar and schizoaffective disorders. There is a 5%-10% lifetime risk of suicide in persons with schizophrenia. Suicide is defined as a self-inflicted death with evidence of an intention to end one"s life. The New Testament recounts Jesus" awareness that people intended to kill him and his taking steps to avoid peril until the time at which he permitted his apprehension. In advance, he explained to his followers the necessity of his death as prelude for his return (Matthew 16:21"28; Mark 8:31; John 16:16"28). If this occurred in the manner described, then Jesus appears to have deliberately placed himself in circumstances wherein he anticipated his execution. Although schizophrenia is associated with an increased risk of suicide, this would not be a typical case. The more common mood-disorder accompaniments of suicide, such as depression, hopelessness, and social isolation, were not present, but other risk factors, such as age and male gender, were present. Suicide-by-proxy is described as "any incident in which a suicidal individual causes his or her death to be carried out by another person." There is a potential parallel of Jesus" beliefs and behavior leading up to his death to that of one who premeditates a form of suicide-by-proxy." (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, Evan D. Murray, M.D. Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D. Bruce H. Price, M.D., The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 2012; 24:410-426)

That's what I thought, the same crap every time. Why are you so afraid to show me what's in there? why do you resist me? you don't even know me or where I come from...
Don't you know secular psychology must put labels on spirituality? and it's reality...why? you know why they must, because if they don't they must face the possibility their ideologies are flawed, now....shall we go over all your nutty Hindu Guru's that receive revelations of all kinds of nutty stuff, huh? cause we can do that, however that is not my concern.
Jesus was obviously a good man, intelligent, passionate, compassionate but not nuts, now you on the other hand I have some serious concerns about. Jesus, unlike you, possessed all spiritual, true, real and good attributes, His reputation precedes Him, as does yours. So maybe, we should turn the table and focus on what we've seen from you here, which I remind you get's pretty filthy, evil and blasphemous.
So why would anyone, and I mean anyone consider your posts and opinions other than trash?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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7/20/2016 2:15:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 12:45:03 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 9:54:06 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:42:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 3:32:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 3:25:04 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 2:34:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."


Why don't we turn to the experts for their diagnostic about what Jesus suffered from. His condition can be found in the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders,)


Psychiatry calls Jesus a paranoid schizophrenic, Supraphrenic!

Sept. 2012: "Jesus" experiences can be potentially conceptualized within the framework of Paranoid Schizophrenia or Psychosis NOS. Other reasonable possibilities might include bipolar and schizoaffective disorders. " hyperreligiosity " Suicide-by-proxy is described as "any incident in which a suicidal individual causes his or her death to be carried out by another person. " a Supraphrenic" (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, Evan D. Murray, M.D. Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D. Bruce H. Price, M.D., The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 2012;

Observations Upon the Diseases of the Mind, Benjamin Rush 1812 AD, p122)
A. Today, Psychiatry diagnoses Jesus with schizophrenia:
"In short, the nature of the hallucinations of Jesus, as they are described in the orthodox Gospels, permits us to conclude that the founder of the Christian religion was afflicted with religious paranoia." (Charles Binet-Sangl", La Folie de J"sus, The Madness of Jesus, 1910, p 393)
"Everything that we know about him [Jesus] conforms so perfectly to the clinical picture of paranoia that it is hardly conceivable that people can even question the accuracy of the diagnosis."(American psychiatrist William Hirsch, Conclusions of a Psychiatrist, 1912, p 99)
"Jesus Christ might simply have returned to his carpentry following the use of modern [psychiatric] treatments." (William Sargant, "The movement in psychiatry away from the philosophical," The Times (English), 22 August 1974, p 14)
"For example, as we will show, a materialist readily believes-without any reliable evidence whatsoever-that great spiritual leaders suffer from temporal-lobe epilepsy rather than that they have spiritual experiences that inspire others as well as themselves." (The Spiritual Brain, Mario Beauregard Ph.D., Neuroscientist, 2007, p xii)

c. "JESUS: The New Testament (NT) recalls Jesus as having experienced and shown behavior closely resembling the DSM-IV-TR"defined phenomena of Auditory Hallucinations, Visual Hallucinations, delusions, referential thinking (see Figure 3), paranoid-type (Paranoid Schizophrenic subtype) thought content, and hyperreligiosity " In terms of potential causes of perceptual and behavioral changes, it might be asked whether starvation and metabolic derangements were present. The hallucinatory-like experiences that Jesus had in the desert while he fasted for 40 days (Luke 4:1"13) may have been induced by starvation and metabolic derangements. " The absence of physical maladies or apparent epilepsy leaves primary psychiatric etiologies as more plausible. As seen with the previous cases, Jesus" experiences can be potentially conceptualized within the framework of Paranoid Schizophrenia or Psychosis Not Otherwise Specified. Other reasonable possibilities might include bipolar and schizoaffective disorders. There is a 5%-10% lifetime risk of suicide in persons with schizophrenia. Suicide is defined as a self-inflicted death with evidence of an intention to end one"s life. The New Testament recounts Jesus" awareness that people intended to kill him and his taking steps to avoid peril until the time at which he permitted his apprehension. In advance, he explained to his followers the necessity of his death as prelude for his return (Matthew 16:21"28; Mark 8:31; John 16:16"28). If this occurred in the manner described, then Jesus appears to have deliberately placed himself in circumstances wherein he anticipated his execution. Although schizophrenia is associated with an increased risk of suicide, this would not be a typical case. The more common mood-disorder accompaniments of suicide, such as depression, hopelessness, and social isolation, were not present, but other risk factors, such as age and male gender, were present. Suicide-by-proxy is described as "any incident in which a suicidal individual causes his or her death to be carried out by another person." There is a potential parallel of Jesus" beliefs and behavior leading up to his death to that of one who premeditates a form of suicide-by-proxy." (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, Evan D. Murray, M.D. Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D. Bruce H. Price, M.D., The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 2012; 24:410-426)

That's what I thought, the same crap every time. Why are you so afraid to show me what's in there? why do you resist me? you don't even know me or where I come from...
Don't you know secular psychology must put labels on spirituality? and it's reality...why? you know why they must, because if they don't they must face the possibility their ideologies are flawed, now....shall we go over all your nutty Hindu Guru's that receive revelations of all kinds of nutty stuff, huh? cause we can do that, however that is not my concern.
Jesus was obviously a good man, intelligent, passionate, compassionate but not nuts, now you on the other hand I have some serious concerns about. Jesus, unlike you, possessed all spiritual, true, real and good attributes, His reputation precedes Him, as does yours. So maybe, we should turn the table and focus on what we've seen from you here, which I remind you get's pretty filthy, evil and blasphemous.
So why would anyone, and I mean anyone consider your posts and opinions other than trash?

According to medical experts Jesus was " Psychiatry calls Jesus a paranoid schizophrenic, Supraphrenic!" Biblical scholars argue Jesus was a liar and a lunatic and his delusions were contagious, his believers picked it up. Historical facts put Jesus's corpse nailed to on a wooden cross 2000 years ago.
No one can refute the facts that Jesus was unemployed, never married and hung out with unsavoury men. One lied about him, another betrayed him and most of them were unschooled illiterates.
The good things about him were written centuries after his death. The Gospels are full of myths, fables and exaltation of Jesus a contradiction considering the fact Jesus was crucified with common criminals. Even worse Jesus was despised, rejected and held in low esteem.

Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
His last words were full of pain and regrets. He felt betrayed and forsaken.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Why did God pick the Jews to judge Him and Jesus? And why did God stand by while the Romans were destroying His temple, Jerusalem and slaughtering the very people he sent Jesus to save? To add insult to injury the Romans created the Roman Catholic Church which commands over a billion Christians today. Irony of ironies.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,328
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7/20/2016 2:43:20 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 2:15:11 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/20/2016 12:45:03 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 9:54:06 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:42:57 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 3:32:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 3:25:04 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/18/2016 2:34:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:



Psychiatry calls Jesus a paranoid schizophrenic, Supraphrenic!

And what would they call revelation from Hinduism? huh Hari? you can't claim a secular study to determine spirituality labeling it mental illness without applying it to yourself and your own religion, and have you done that?


According to medical experts Jesus was " Psychiatry calls Jesus a paranoid schizophrenic, Supraphrenic!" Biblical scholars argue Jesus was a liar and a lunatic and his delusions were contagious, his believers picked it up. Historical facts put Jesus's corpse nailed to on a wooden cross 2000 years ago.

Jesus was not a liar dimwit, because you "think" He was delusional doesn't mean He was a liar in reality, nor were His words and actions that of a lunatic. Even if people "thought" He was a lunatic doesn't make Him one either, I mean... I think you are a lunatic, does that mean you are? according to you, yes it does. Thanks.

No one can refute the facts that Jesus was unemployed, never married and hung out with unsavoury men. One lied about him, another betrayed him and most of them were unschooled illiterates.

How is any of that relevant? Yeah sure, Jesus had compassion where it was not commonly accepted, that makes Him a hero, not a villain.
Jesus worked as a carpenter ended His life in the ministry, which is also work. He never married because He was to be pure and untouched before God, without blemish, a perfect lamb, a virgin...it was not His focus or mission to get married. The last sentence is just dumb, as you lie all the time, you back stab people and you operate from deception, so once again it's just a matter of that beam in your eye, you like to exaggerate others flaws while ignoring yours that are much worse. And, according to your knowledge of Christianity you are seriously unschooled, your scholarship remains a joke.

The good things about him were written centuries after his death. The Gospels are full of myths, fables and exaltation of Jesus a contradiction considering the fact Jesus was crucified with common criminals. Even worse Jesus was despised, rejected and held in low esteem.

So basically Jesus fulfilled prophesy? yes, I'm aware of that. The fact you believe the Gospels to be myths is your opinion, thanks for that, but I'll discard it as such.


Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
His last words were full of pain and regrets. He felt betrayed and forsaken.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").


What's your point here? that Jesus fulfilled prophesy? wow.

Why did God pick the Jews to judge Him and Jesus? And why did God stand by while the Romans were destroying His temple, Jerusalem and slaughtering the very people he sent Jesus to save? To add insult to injury the Romans created the Roman Catholic Church which commands over a billion Christians today. Irony of ironies.

How is any of this relevant to the trinity concept, or what Jesus taught?
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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7/20/2016 2:48:38 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/18/2016 6:03:30 AM, Airaux2 wrote:
At 7/17/2016 11:56:49 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/17/2016 3:36:03 PM, Airaux2 wrote:
I am unsure as to the nature of Jesus, having spent much time hearing from bot trinitarians and unitarians. Anyone like to debate this biblically?

I'm an atheist at the moment, but in the past I used to study and practice Roman Catholicism. In my language, we used to say somees of "Alla wiehed fi tlett persuni", which means "One God in 3 people". Jesus, technically speaking, is considered to be God to a certain extent as The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity and that is not the case. Jesus in the Bible is described as God in flesh:
John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."
Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.""
Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and e
Titus 2:13 labels Jesus as "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

This should roughly explain it: https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Thanks, everybody, for your input. Over the years, I've desperately tried to ascertain the truth, going through the Bible with many people with opposing views. At the moment, I'm tending towards Trinitarianism, but there are some points unitarians point out which cause me concern.

I remember when I was in the same spot searching for the truth within Christianity. Now I am an atheist with deist leanings.
seeu46
Posts: 578
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7/20/2016 6:03:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Here John declares Jesus existed before he was born.

John 1:30
This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.

Here Jesus agree's he came from Heaven.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

In Matthew Jesus spoke about this as well.

Matthew
Jesus said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him Lord? For he says: 44"The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies under Your feet."" 45So if David calls Him Lord, how can He be David"s son?"

King David in the Spirit called the Christ Lord. So then the question you have to ask yourself is this man who was born on Earth. But before he was born HE already existed in Heaven.

God created HIMSELF on Earth.

Why in the world would God become a man and die. To defeat sin and death out of his love for us. To bring men back to Heaven!!!!!

We can follow HIM the CHOSEN ONE and not Adam nor any other man. So the Good News is this believe in Jesus the Christ and follow him.....ONLY. And you will be saved!