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Please Prove That God Exists

ANON_TacTiX
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7/20/2016 8:34:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I posted a forum like this one a while ago, and I got some very interesting responses. I haven't been on this site for some time now, so I thought that a good way to kick things off would be to revisit this topic.

Any God will do, so long as you are prepared to actually prove its existence.

I want this to be a good debate. No name calling and no insults. I don't want this forum to devolve into bickering and pointlessness like so many others have. It is not too much to ask. I hope that this forum becomes a place to share opinions and perspectives, not insults. Happy debating, everyone.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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7/20/2016 9:27:56 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 8:34:48 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
I posted a forum like this one a while ago, and I got some very interesting responses. I haven't been on this site for some time now, so I thought that a good way to kick things off would be to revisit this topic.

Any God will do, so long as you are prepared to actually prove its existence.

I want this to be a good debate. No name calling and no insults. I don't want this forum to devolve into bickering and pointlessness like so many others have. It is not too much to ask. I hope that this forum becomes a place to share opinions and perspectives, not insults. Happy debating, everyone.

Any God .
The sun is a God .
The sun exists.
God exists.
ANON_TacTiX
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7/20/2016 9:30:59 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Any God .
The sun is a God .
The sun exists.
God exists.

You must first prove that the sun is actually a God. Sorry, but science beat you to it. We know that the sun is an extremely hot ball of hydrogen, helium, and other elements. Nothing more. There is no divinity to it.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
Fatihah
Posts: 7,731
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7/20/2016 11:06:29 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 8:34:48 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
I posted a forum like this one a while ago, and I got some very interesting responses. I haven't been on this site for some time now, so I thought that a good way to kick things off would be to revisit this topic.

Any God will do, so long as you are prepared to actually prove its existence.

I want this to be a good debate. No name calling and no insults. I don't want this forum to devolve into bickering and pointlessness like so many others have. It is not too much to ask. I hope that this forum becomes a place to share opinions and perspectives, not insults. Happy debating, everyone.

Response: Please show us, right here right now, this very instant, for all to see and observe firsthand, not a quote or reference form somewhere, not something you heard from somewhere, don't attempt ton dodge the question either by asking me a question, .........

Draw a simple checkerboard pattern without choosing to do so. That's it.

Your own failure to do so is firsthand evidence that a repeating pattern cannot originate from non-choice. It can only come from choice, thereby proving that the repeating patterns in the universe and life itself originated from choice. Proving God exist.
ANON_TacTiX
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7/20/2016 11:15:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:06:29 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2016 8:34:48 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
I posted a forum like this one a while ago, and I got some very interesting responses. I haven't been on this site for some time now, so I thought that a good way to kick things off would be to revisit this topic.

Any God will do, so long as you are prepared to actually prove its existence.

I want this to be a good debate. No name calling and no insults. I don't want this forum to devolve into bickering and pointlessness like so many others have. It is not too much to ask. I hope that this forum becomes a place to share opinions and perspectives, not insults. Happy debating, everyone.

Response: Please show us, right here right now, this very instant, for all to see and observe firsthand, not a quote or reference form somewhere, not something you heard from somewhere, don't attempt ton dodge the question either by asking me a question, .........

Draw a simple checkerboard pattern without choosing to do so. That's it.

Your own failure to do so is firsthand evidence that a repeating pattern cannot originate from non-choice. It can only come from choice, thereby proving that the repeating patterns in the universe and life itself originated from choice. Proving God exist.

What you ask is not possible, but it does not prove the existence of God. Where in the universe is there a repeating pattern not created by humans or another life form? There is no pattern to the creation of the universe. There is no pattern to the creation of stars of black holes. Even atoms, the building blocks of everything do not follow a specific pattern or structure. there is a general structure, but no atom follows this to a T. There are repeating patterns in the periodic table, but these patterns come with exceptions and are not perfect. Please show me one perfectly repeating pattern anywhere in nature that was not created by humans or some other life form. I think you will have some trouble.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
ANON_TacTiX
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7/20/2016 11:16:59 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:15:44 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:06:29 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2016 8:34:48 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
I posted a forum like this one a while ago, and I got some very interesting responses. I haven't been on this site for some time now, so I thought that a good way to kick things off would be to revisit this topic.

Any God will do, so long as you are prepared to actually prove its existence.

I want this to be a good debate. No name calling and no insults. I don't want this forum to devolve into bickering and pointlessness like so many others have. It is not too much to ask. I hope that this forum becomes a place to share opinions and perspectives, not insults. Happy debating, everyone.

Response: Please show us, right here right now, this very instant, for all to see and observe firsthand, not a quote or reference form somewhere, not something you heard from somewhere, don't attempt ton dodge the question either by asking me a question, .........

Draw a simple checkerboard pattern without choosing to do so. That's it.

Your own failure to do so is firsthand evidence that a repeating pattern cannot originate from non-choice. It can only come from choice, thereby proving that the repeating patterns in the universe and life itself originated from choice. Proving God exist.

What you ask is not possible, but it does not prove the existence of God. Where in the universe is there a repeating pattern not created by humans or another life form? There is no pattern to the creation of the universe. There is no pattern to the creation of stars of black holes. Even atoms, the building blocks of everything do not follow a specific pattern or structure. there is a general structure, but no atom follows this to a T. There are repeating patterns in the periodic table, but these patterns come with exceptions and are not perfect. Please show me one perfectly repeating pattern anywhere in nature that was not created by humans or some other life form. I think you will have some trouble.

I should clarify here. Your post implies that there are repeating patterns in nature that God chose to create. I want you to show me one.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
Fatihah
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7/20/2016 11:18:16 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:15:44 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

What you ask is not possible, but it does not prove the existence of God. Where in the universe is there a repeating pattern not created by humans or another life form? There is no pattern to the creation of the universe. There is no pattern to the creation of stars of black holes. Even atoms, the building blocks of everything do not follow a specific pattern or structure. there is a general structure, but no atom follows this to a T. There are repeating patterns in the periodic table, but these patterns come with exceptions and are not perfect. Please show me one perfectly repeating pattern anywhere in nature that was not created by humans or some other life form. I think you will have some trouble.

Response: In other words, you cannot answer my challenge. Thus your own failure is firsthand evidence that a repeating pattern cannot originate from non-choice, thus supporting the fact that the repeating patterns in the universe and life itself originated from choice. Proving God exist.
ANON_TacTiX
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7/20/2016 11:22:39 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:18:16 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:15:44 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

What you ask is not possible, but it does not prove the existence of God. Where in the universe is there a repeating pattern not created by humans or another life form? There is no pattern to the creation of the universe. There is no pattern to the creation of stars of black holes. Even atoms, the building blocks of everything do not follow a specific pattern or structure. there is a general structure, but no atom follows this to a T. There are repeating patterns in the periodic table, but these patterns come with exceptions and are not perfect. Please show me one perfectly repeating pattern anywhere in nature that was not created by humans or some other life form. I think you will have some trouble.

Response: In other words, you cannot answer my challenge. Thus your own failure is firsthand evidence that a repeating pattern cannot originate from non-choice, thus supporting the fact that the repeating patterns in the universe and life itself originated from choice. Proving God exist.

No it does not. You are implying that there are repeating patterns in the universe, when this is not true. No pattern created without the aid of another life form is perfect. Again, look at the elements on the periodic table. Look at atoms. You did not read my entire post, did you?
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
Fatihah
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7/20/2016 11:28:50 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:22:39 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

No it does not. You are implying that there are repeating patterns in the universe, when this is not true. No pattern created without the aid of another life form is perfect. Again, look at the elements on the periodic table. Look at atoms. You did not read my entire post, did you?

Response: The water cycle is a repeating pattern. It's the same process that makes it rain. So your logic fails. Your post is invalid.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,606
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7/20/2016 11:38:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 8:34:48 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
I posted a forum like this one a while ago, and I got some very interesting responses. I haven't been on this site for some time now, so I thought that a good way to kick things off would be to revisit this topic.

Any God will do, so long as you are prepared to actually prove its existence.

I want this to be a good debate. No name calling and no insults. I don't want this forum to devolve into bickering and pointlessness like so many others have. It is not too much to ask. I hope that this forum becomes a place to share opinions and perspectives, not insults. Happy debating, everyone.

Humans cannot prove any gods exist, only the specific god in question, whoever that may be can prove itself to exist, most likely, by revealing itself to all mankind. Anything else is just horsepucky.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
ANON_TacTiX
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7/20/2016 11:38:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:28:50 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:22:39 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

No it does not. You are implying that there are repeating patterns in the universe, when this is not true. No pattern created without the aid of another life form is perfect. Again, look at the elements on the periodic table. Look at atoms. You did not read my entire post, did you?

Response: The water cycle is a repeating pattern. It's the same process that makes it rain. So your logic fails. Your post is invalid.

The water cycle is not perfect. Look at droughts and floods. Look at California this year. They will tell you how imperfect the water cycle is. My logic still stands, and I would like it if you didn't call my arguments invalid.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/20/2016 11:43:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:06:29 PM, Fatihah wrote:
Draw a simple checkerboard pattern without choosing to do so. That's it.
It's hard for humans to do many systematic tasks without choice, but let's agree that with only 250,000 neurons and living for only 45-60 days, ants have neither the capacity nor the time to acquire the experience needed to make complex choices.

Could an ant draw a checkerboard for us without choosing to do so? You seem to be arguing that it never could.

Yet what would happen if it marched along the cracks of this mesa, looking for scraps?

http://utahpictures.com...

Oh, but perhaps the ant is only tracing a pattern it found. Yet the pattern was scribed by sun and wind on rock. Could you please then nominate whether it was the wind or the sun which chose to create this shape?

Or will you be obliged to assume that something unseen guided them? And will you then assume the very position you'd set out to prove?
Fatihah
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7/20/2016 11:44:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:38:58 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

The water cycle is not perfect. Look at droughts and floods. Look at California this year. They will tell you how imperfect the water cycle is. My logic still stands, and I would like it if you didn't call my arguments invalid.

Response: Your arguments are invalid. No one is obligated to post as you like. You are free to discontinue the dialogue as you like. additionally, you are using a strawman, as the challenge requires a repeating pattern without choice and says nothing about perfection. So again, your argument is invalid an your own admission that it is impossible supports the fact that the repeating patterns in the universe proves that it originated from choice. Therefore, God exist.
Fatihah
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7/20/2016 11:46:19 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:43:06 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:06:29 PM, Fatihah wrote:
Draw a simple checkerboard pattern without choosing to do so. That's it.
It's hard for humans to do many systematic tasks without choice, but let's agree that with only 250,000 neurons and living for only 45-60 days, ants have neither the capacity nor the time to acquire the experience needed to make complex choices.

Could an ant draw a checkerboard for us without choosing to do so? You seem to be arguing that it never could.

Yet what would happen if it marched along the cracks of this mesa, looking for scraps?

http://utahpictures.com...

Oh, but perhaps the ant is only tracing a pattern it found. Yet the pattern was scribed by sun and wind on rock. Could you please then nominate whether it was the wind or the sun which chose to create this shape?

Or will you be obliged to assume that something unseen guided them? And will you then assume the very position you'd set out to prove?

Response: My challenge is to draw a checkerboard without choosing to do so. So your ant reference is irrelevant.
ANON_TacTiX
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7/20/2016 11:50:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:44:52 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:38:58 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

The water cycle is not perfect. Look at droughts and floods. Look at California this year. They will tell you how imperfect the water cycle is. My logic still stands, and I would like it if you didn't call my arguments invalid.

Response: Your arguments are invalid. No one is obligated to post as you like. You are free to discontinue the dialogue as you like. additionally, you are using a strawman, as the challenge requires a repeating pattern without choice and says nothing about perfection. So again, your argument is invalid an your own admission that it is impossible supports the fact that the repeating patterns in the universe proves that it originated from choice. Therefore, God exist.

I did say that it had to be perfect. Read the full post. Also, the fact that there are no repeating patterns outside of those that are created by living things does not prove that God exists. You implied that there are repeating patterns in the universe and that God created them, and this is simply not true outside of those created by living things.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
RuvDraba
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7/20/2016 11:52:29 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:46:19 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:43:06 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:06:29 PM, Fatihah wrote:
Draw a simple checkerboard pattern without choosing to do so. That's it.
It's hard for humans to do many systematic tasks without choice, but let's agree that with only 250,000 neurons and living for only 45-60 days, ants have neither the capacity nor the time to acquire the experience needed to make complex choices.

Could an ant draw a checkerboard for us without choosing to do so? You seem to be arguing that it never could.

Yet what would happen if it marched along the cracks of this mesa, looking for scraps?

http://utahpictures.com...

Oh, but perhaps the ant is only tracing a pattern it found. Yet the pattern was scribed by sun and wind on rock. Could you please then nominate whether it was the wind or the sun which chose to create this shape?

Or will you be obliged to assume that something unseen guided them? And will you then assume the very position you'd set out to prove?

My challenge is to draw a checkerboard without choosing to do so. So your ant reference is irrelevant.

I have presented you with a checkerboard I did not draw, but which nevertheless can be drawn whenever I wish, without instructing anyone how to do so.

So it is a pattern that can be drawn whenever desired, without intelligent executive instruction.

What a pity that your argument lacked honesty, as well as validity.
ANON_TacTiX
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7/20/2016 11:53:49 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Response: My challenge is to draw a checkerboard without choosing to do so. So your ant reference is irrelevant.

Also, the fact that you are calling thought out responses irrelevant borders on insulting. I do not want that kind of thing happening in my forum. I never said that you obligated to post in any way. I am simply asking you to please stop.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
Fatihah
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7/20/2016 11:56:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:50:10 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

I did say that it had to be perfect. Read the full post. Also, the fact that there are no repeating patterns outside of those that are created by living things does not prove that God exists. You implied that there are repeating patterns in the universe and that God created them, and this is simply not true outside of those created by living things.

Response: Yes, 'YOU' say it had to be perfect. The challenge I issued does not. Therefore, you have failed to answer my challenge and your own admission that it is impossible supports the fact that a repeating pattern can only originate from choice. Proving God exist.

By the way, the water cycle is a repeating pattern as it is the same occurring process that makes it rain. So your claim that there are no repeating patterns in the universe is also invalid.
ANON_TacTiX
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7/20/2016 11:58:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:52:29 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:46:19 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:43:06 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:06:29 PM, Fatihah wrote:
Draw a simple checkerboard pattern without choosing to do so. That's it.
It's hard for humans to do many systematic tasks without choice, but let's agree that with only 250,000 neurons and living for only 45-60 days, ants have neither the capacity nor the time to acquire the experience needed to make complex choices.

Could an ant draw a checkerboard for us without choosing to do so? You seem to be arguing that it never could.

Yet what would happen if it marched along the cracks of this mesa, looking for scraps?

http://utahpictures.com...

Oh, but perhaps the ant is only tracing a pattern it found. Yet the pattern was scribed by sun and wind on rock. Could you please then nominate whether it was the wind or the sun which chose to create this shape?

Or will you be obliged to assume that something unseen guided them? And will you then assume the very position you'd set out to prove?

My challenge is to draw a checkerboard without choosing to do so. So your ant reference is irrelevant.

I have presented you with a checkerboard I did not draw, but which nevertheless can be drawn whenever I wish, without instructing anyone how to do so.

So it is a pattern that can be drawn whenever desired, without intelligent executive instruction.

What a pity that your argument lacked honesty, as well as validity.

To be fair, it is not a perfect checkerboard. It was implied that there are perfect repeating patterns in the universe that were not created by living things, so God created them. The problem is that there are not. Therefore, the argument that perfectly repeating patterns cannot be created without intelligence does not prove the existence of a God.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
Fatihah
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7/20/2016 11:58:27 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:52:29 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

I have presented you with a checkerboard I did not draw, but which nevertheless can be drawn whenever I wish, without instructing anyone how to do so.

So it is a pattern that can be drawn whenever desired, without intelligent executive instruction.

What a pity that your argument lacked honesty, as well as validity.

Response: Saying you created a checkerboard without choice is not proof you have done so. Furthermore, if just saying so is proof, then you have not created one. The proof is "I say so". Debunked by your own absurdity. Thus the proof of God's existence remains valid.
Fatihah
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7/21/2016 12:00:46 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:58:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

To be fair, it is not a perfect checkerboard. It was implied that there are perfect repeating patterns in the universe that were not created by living things, so God created them. The problem is that there are not. Therefore, the argument that perfectly repeating patterns cannot be created without intelligence does not prove the existence of a God.

Response: My challenge never said a "perfect" checkerboard. So your use of "perfect" is another failed strawman.
ANON_TacTiX
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7/21/2016 12:02:51 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:56:10 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:50:10 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

I did say that it had to be perfect. Read the full post. Also, the fact that there are no repeating patterns outside of those that are created by living things does not prove that God exists. You implied that there are repeating patterns in the universe and that God created them, and this is simply not true outside of those created by living things.

Response: Yes, 'YOU' say it had to be perfect. The challenge I issued does not. Therefore, you have failed to answer my challenge and your own admission that it is impossible supports the fact that a repeating pattern can only originate from choice. Proving God exist.

By the way, the water cycle is a repeating pattern as it is the same occurring process that makes it rain. So your claim that there are no repeating patterns in the universe is also invalid.

So I can create a perfect pattern if I want, but God cannot. i thought that he was all powerful, all knowing. Why, then are there no perfect patterns in nature not created by living things. Also, your checkerboard example sort of implied that the pattern had to be perfect. Plus, if a pattern is not perfect and there an imperfection in one of the steps, it is no longer a repeating pattern.

Another point: I said that the repeating pattern had to be PERFECT. i never said that there were no patterns, just no perfect ones. Please don't cherry pick my words.

I will be gone for a few minutes, so don't expect a response right away.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
RuvDraba
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7/21/2016 12:04:19 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:58:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:52:29 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
I have presented you with a checkerboard I did not draw, but which nevertheless can be drawn whenever I wish, without instructing anyone how to do so.
So it is a pattern that can be drawn whenever desired, without intelligent executive instruction.
To be fair, it is not a perfect checkerboard.

I didn't see the requirement of perfect geometry in the formulation, Tac. Had it been so formulated then it would draw the counter-argument that imperfect geometries cannot have been designed purposefully by intelligence, since by the same argument, a purposeful intelligence would have improved them.
Fatihah
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7/21/2016 12:10:04 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 12:02:51 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

So I can create a perfect pattern if I want, but God cannot. i thought that he was all powerful, all knowing. Why, then are there no perfect patterns in nature not created by living things. Also, your checkerboard example sort of implied that the pattern had to be perfect. Plus, if a pattern is not perfect and there an imperfection in one of the steps, it is no longer a repeating pattern.

Another point: I said that the repeating pattern had to be PERFECT. i never said that there were no patterns, just no perfect ones. Please don't cherry pick my words.

I will be gone for a few minutes, so don't expect a response right away.

Response: Neither the word "perfect" or its synonym was mentioned in the challenge. So it was never implied and your strawman continues to fail.

Secondly, your first response to my challenge says "What you ask is not possible, but it does not prove the existence of God."

So you said what I asked is not possible and since I never mentioned anything about perfect, then you acknowledged that a repeating pattern can only originate from choice.

Now if you want to change your words now, be my guest, but don't falsely accuse one of cherry picking when I just quoted your own words showing your claim is false.
RuvDraba
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7/21/2016 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/20/2016 11:58:27 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/20/2016 11:52:29 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

I have presented you with a checkerboard I did not draw, but which nevertheless can be drawn whenever I wish, without instructing anyone how to do so.

So it is a pattern that can be drawn whenever desired, without intelligent executive instruction.

What a pity that your argument lacked honesty, as well as validity.

Saying you created a checkerboard without choice is not proof you have done so.

So ants will never march along cracks in rocks, looking for food, therefore... God? :D

That's not the most persuasive argument for theology I've ever heard, Fati, but it is certainly the funniest. Thank you for entertaining my morning. :D
Fatihah
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7/21/2016 12:14:12 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 12:11:25 AM, RuvDraba wrote:

So ants will never march along cracks in rocks, looking for food, therefore... God? :D

That's not the most persuasive argument for theology I've ever heard, Fati, but it is certainly the funniest. Thank you for entertaining my morning. :D

Response: My challenge never mentions anything about ants, so your strawman fails again. Thanks for showing us how the truth and proof that God exist creates delusion in atheists, as we watch you not only make a strawman but laugh at your own strawman as weak evidence. Thanks.
RuvDraba
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7/21/2016 12:26:24 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 12:14:12 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/21/2016 12:11:25 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
So ants will never march along cracks in rocks, looking for food, therefore... God? :D
That's not the most persuasive argument for theology I've ever heard, Fati, but it is certainly the funniest. Thank you for entertaining my morning. :D

My challenge never mentions anything about ants
Because you hadn't thought through the many ways regular structure might emerge without purposeful intelligence, which was rather my point, dear my colleague.

More broadly, theological arguments from aesthetic intuitions contain a double fallacy:

1) Fallacy of Ignorance: Not knowing how regular structure is produced does not mean you know how structure is produced -- as the ants on Checkerboard Mesa illustrate;
2) Non Sequitur: Conjecturing an intelligence deliberately creating the universe does not entail that intelligence notices you, cares about you, respects you, or is worthy of worship as a deity. In fact, given the fact that 99% of species ever to have inhabited our supposedly purposefully-created world are now extinct, you might well hope it didn't notice you. You may as well call such a creator a demon or ifrit as a god.
ANON_TacTiX
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7/21/2016 12:38:35 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 12:10:04 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/21/2016 12:02:51 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

So I can create a perfect pattern if I want, but God cannot. i thought that he was all powerful, all knowing. Why, then are there no perfect patterns in nature not created by living things. Also, your checkerboard example sort of implied that the pattern had to be perfect. Plus, if a pattern is not perfect and there an imperfection in one of the steps, it is no longer a repeating pattern.

Another point: I said that the repeating pattern had to be PERFECT. i never said that there were no patterns, just no perfect ones. Please don't cherry pick my words.

I will be gone for a few minutes, so don't expect a response right away.

Response: Neither the word "perfect" or its synonym was mentioned in the challenge. So it was never implied and your strawman continues to fail.
The word does not need to be mentioned to be implied. When you think of a checkerboard, you think perfect black and white squares in a perfectly repeating pattern.
Secondly, your first response to my challenge says "What you ask is not possible, but it does not prove the existence of God."

So you said what I asked is not possible and since I never mentioned anything about perfect, then you acknowledged that a repeating pattern can only originate from choice.
A general repeating pattern can exist without choice. Look at atoms and elements. There is a general repeating pattern. I said that a PERFECT repeating pattern cannot exist without choice. It makes no sense that out of all of the patterns in the universe, none of them are perfect except those created by a living thing. Is your all powerful God incapable of creating a perfect pattern? If so, how can he be all powerful. Even I can create a perfect pattern if I want.
Now if you want to change your words now, be my guest, but don't falsely accuse one of cherry picking when I just quoted your own words showing your claim is false.
You didn't quote me until after I accused you of cherry picking.

This argument is going nowhere and obviously proving nothing. Can we please move on?
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
Fatihah
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7/21/2016 12:39:24 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 12:26:24 AM, RuvDraba wrote:

Because you hadn't thought through the many ways regular structure might emerge without purposeful intelligence, which was rather my point, dear my colleague.

More broadly, theological arguments from aesthetic intuitions contain a double fallacy:

1) Fallacy of Ignorance: Not knowing how regular structure is produced does not mean you know how structure is produced -- as the ants on Checkerboard Mesa illustrate;
2) Non Sequitur: Conjecturing an intelligence deliberately creating the universe does not entail that intelligence notices you, cares about you, respects you, or is worthy of worship as a deity. In fact, given the fact that 99% of species ever to have inhabited our supposedly purposefully-created world are now extinct, you might well hope it didn't notice you. You may as well call such a creator a demon or ifrit as a god.

Response: You were issued a challenge and failed the challenge. Failing a challenge is not a fallacy on my part but proof that my argument is valid since you continue to fail in answering it. Try again.
Fatihah
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7/21/2016 12:42:45 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 12:38:35 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 12:10:04 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/21/2016 12:02:51 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:

So I can create a perfect pattern if I want, but God cannot. i thought that he was all powerful, all knowing. Why, then are there no perfect patterns in nature not created by living things. Also, your checkerboard example sort of implied that the pattern had to be perfect. Plus, if a pattern is not perfect and there an imperfection in one of the steps, it is no longer a repeating pattern.

Another point: I said that the repeating pattern had to be PERFECT. i never said that there were no patterns, just no perfect ones. Please don't cherry pick my words.

I will be gone for a few minutes, so don't expect a response right away.

Response: Neither the word "perfect" or its synonym was mentioned in the challenge. So it was never implied and your strawman continues to fail.
The word does not need to be mentioned to be implied. When you think of a checkerboard, you think perfect black and white squares in a perfectly repeating pattern.
Secondly, your first response to my challenge says "What you ask is not possible, but it does not prove the existence of God."

So you said what I asked is not possible and since I never mentioned anything about perfect, then you acknowledged that a repeating pattern can only originate from choice.
A general repeating pattern can exist without choice. Look at atoms and elements. There is a general repeating pattern. I said that a PERFECT repeating pattern cannot exist without choice. It makes no sense that out of all of the patterns in the universe, none of them are perfect except those created by a living thing. Is your all powerful God incapable of creating a perfect pattern? If so, how can he be all powerful. Even I can create a perfect pattern if I want.
Now if you want to change your words now, be my guest, but don't falsely accuse one of cherry picking when I just quoted your own words showing your claim is false.
You didn't quote me until after I accused you of cherry picking.

This argument is going nowhere and obviously proving nothing. Can we please move on?

Response: There is nothing for me to move on to unless you have another topic. Your reference to perfect is a failed strawman since my challenge never mentioned perfect. I issued you a challenge, you failed the challenge. Thus supporting the fact that a repeating pattern can only originate from choice. Proving the repeating patterns in the universe originated from choice. Therefore God exist.