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ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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7/21/2016 1:35:13 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
I am an atheist, but I have always found religious debates to be a fun and engaging way to share ideas and opinions. I hope that this forum will help people do just that.

I don't care what we talk about, as long as it is related to religion. The existence or nonexistence of a God and morality of religion are two of my favorite topics, but I am open to others.

I hope that we can all have a good debate. No insults or name calling, as they always seem to ruin a forum for everyone involved. If an argument is going in circles, please move on to a new one, as repetitive posts make forums less stimulating and more tedious. I hope that this forum will attract many different opinions and ideas and that we can all share these ideas in a way that keeps this forum interesting. Happy debating.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/21/2016 1:42:37 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
I didn't take earlier opportunity to do so, Tac, but as your account is recently to DDO and I haven't seen you post much in Religion before, welcome. :)

Since this thread isn't tightly focused, may I ask you some questions relating to religion and morality?

1) What do you think morality is, if not only sacred religious strictures?
2) How much of your personal morality would you say derives from religious tradition adopted by social custom? How much would you say derives from other sources? What are they, if any?
3) How can you tell when a moral principle is or is not religious?
4) What benefits, if any, are there to morality prescribed by religion? What costs? Are there any costs or risks to morality distancing itself from religious doctrine?
5) It has sometimes been argued that prescribing morality without a divine overseer makes it subjective and arbitrary -- a matter of individual preference. Do you accept that? If not, why not?
ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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7/21/2016 2:07:33 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 1:42:37 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
I didn't take earlier opportunity to do so, Tac, but as your account is recently to DDO and I haven't seen you post much in Religion before, welcome. :)

Since this thread isn't tightly focused, may I ask you some questions relating to religion and morality?

1) What do you think morality is, if not only sacred religious strictures?
I think that morality is a balance between empathy that we feel for others and logic.
2) How much of your personal morality would you say derives from religious tradition adopted by social custom? How much would you say derives from other sources? What are they, if any?
I'd say that my morality comes from a combination of how I was raised by my parents, and again, empathy and logic. I don't take much from religion, especially when is comes to my morals.
3) How can you tell when a moral principle is or is not religious?
If someone's morals are specifically stated in their religion, it is likely that they came upon them via their religion. Opposition to homosexuality among Christians, for example. Unless you know the person's religion and know the morals associated with that religion, though, you can't really tell.
4) What benefits, if any, are there to morality prescribed by religion? What costs? Are there any costs or risks to morality distancing itself from religious doctrine?
I don't really see many benefits of morality by religion. People just follow the morals of their religion blindly and don't really make their own opinions or morals. This isn't such a bad thing when their religion forbids murder, but when the religion says that women are inferior or that gays are evil, things turn bad. I honestly don't see any risk in finding your own morals without religion. There are many atheists in the world that do exactly that, and we aren't all murderers and thieves. Like I said, Morality is a balance between empathy and logic, so as long as a person has these two qualities, there isn't really a problem. The problem comes when people think illogically or without empathy.
5) It has sometimes been argued that prescribing morality without a divine overseer makes it subjective and arbitrary -- a matter of individual preference. Do you accept that? If not, why not?
Yes, morality is subjective. Everyone has their own morals, but this occurs with and without religion. It all comes back to that balance of logic and empathy. Some people, like myself, are less empathetic. (Not to say that I have no empathy) Some have more empathy. There is, however a general morality that most people live by. Murder (except in self defense) is immoral. Stealing is usually immoral, and so on.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/21/2016 2:25:23 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Thank you for your responses. While I found more than one of them interesting, your answers to 1) and 5) seemed foundational, so I'd like to start here.

At 7/21/2016 2:07:33 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 1:42:37 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
1) What do you think morality is, if not only sacred religious strictures?
I think that morality is a balance between empathy that we feel for others and logic.

Sometimes when witnessing a harmful action, people can be so outraged that they intervene, for what they call moral reasons. An uncontentious example might be to see an adult torturing a child.

But there are situations where people can get outraged, even when no obvious harm is being done -- for example the desecration of a sacred text or symbol, even when such objects are plentiful, and the desecrator might be its owner. Again, the outrage can be as strong as if harm were obviously being done, and people will typically call such outrage morality.

Do you view it as morality? I ask because you described morality as a balance between empathy and logic. If it's morality, is it empathy or logic that drives such outrage? If it's neither, then how does your definition of morality reconcile with that of a majority of the world who do have sacred symbols, and who do view their desecration as immoral?

5) It has sometimes been argued that prescribing morality without a divine overseer makes it subjective and arbitrary -- a matter of individual preference. Do you accept that?
Morality is subjective.
How then can social justice be fair? How is it not simply the tyranny of some privileged elite? And what's the legitimacy of complaining about injustice? Isn't it simply whining that others have more privilege than oneself? Why ever change laws, and how to persuade people that new laws are more fair than old?

In a democracy, is it legitimate to find a distrusted minority whose views are at odds with broader society (for example Muslims or Atheists in a religious democracy like the US), and deny them the right to vote or representation? Is it legitimate to demonise, monitor and intern them if a majority decides it's in their interests to do so?

Such behaviour is recognised as being one of the ten stages of genocide and ethnic cleansing -- a predictable process by which a population mobilises against its own citizens to displace or destroy them. [http://www.genocidewatch.org...].

Do you hold that the morality of genocide is subjective? Do you therefore oppose sanctions and military interventions in sovereign nations aimed at preventing genocide?
ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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7/21/2016 2:59:41 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 2:25:23 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Thank you for your responses. While I found more than one of them interesting, your answers to 1) and 5) seemed foundational, so I'd like to start here.

At 7/21/2016 2:07:33 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 1:42:37 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
1) What do you think morality is, if not only sacred religious strictures?
I think that morality is a balance between empathy that we feel for others and logic.

Sometimes when witnessing a harmful action, people can be so outraged that they intervene, for what they call moral reasons. An uncontentious example might be to see an adult torturing a child.

But there are situations where people can get outraged, even when no obvious harm is being done -- for example the desecration of a sacred text or symbol, even when such objects are plentiful, and the desecrator might be its owner. Again, the outrage can be as strong as if harm were obviously being done, and people will typically call such outrage morality.

Do you view it as morality? I ask because you described morality as a balance between empathy and logic. If it's morality, is it empathy or logic that drives such outrage? If it's neither, then how does your definition of morality reconcile with that of a majority of the world who do have sacred symbols, and who do view their desecration as immoral?

In this example, the outraged person is acting more on emotion than anything. They feel insulted by the fact that someone would desecrate something that represents their beliefs. They could, of course be acting on morals placed on them by their religion as well. As an atheist, I don't really care what people do with religious symbols, as long as those symbols are their property and they are not intentionally trying to insult or otherwise hurt someone else with them. If you buy a Bible and burn it, I don't care. If you burn a cross in front of a black man's house, I have a problem. Not because a religious symbol was destroyed, but because you have intentionally done something that negatively affects another person unnecessarily.

5) It has sometimes been argued that prescribing morality without a divine overseer makes it subjective and arbitrary -- a matter of individual preference. Do you accept that?
Morality is subjective.
How then can social justice be fair? How is it not simply the tyranny of some privileged elite? And what's the legitimacy of complaining about injustice? Isn't it simply whining that others have more privilege than oneself? Why ever change laws, and how to persuade people that new laws are more fair than old?

The justice system in the U.S. is not fair. It is corrupt beyond repair. Laws, though are not made to force people to do the moral thing. They are created for the protection of people and their property. For the most part. The way that I see it, a fair law allows for happiness, comfort, and protection of all that abide by it.

In a democracy, is it legitimate to find a distrusted minority whose views are at odds with broader society (for example Muslims or Atheists in a religious democracy like the US), and deny them the right to vote or representation? Is it legitimate to demonise, monitor and intern them if a majority decides it's in their interests to do so?

It is not right to distrust or deny the rights of certain minorities as a whole. I don't care what race or ethnicity you look at. There are always people that belong to that race or ethnicity that have done bad things. It is just stupid to discriminate against one minority when the majority of that minority are good people and there are so many bad people outside that minority.

Such behaviour is recognised as being one of the ten stages of genocide and ethnic cleansing -- a predictable process by which a population mobilises against its own citizens to displace or destroy them. [http://www.genocidewatch.org...].

Do you hold that the morality of genocide is subjective? Do you therefore oppose sanctions and military interventions in sovereign nations aimed at preventing genocide?

I will use the Holocaust as an example here. I still say that morality is subjective. Hitler had morals. They were twisted and terrible, but they were his morals. His logic was that the Jews were inferior and that only the superior should live so that he could create a "better" Germany. His empathy was obviously lacking, but he did feel strongly that he needed to fix his country. I do think that genocide should be prevented, as it is a terrible thing on both the empathetic and logical levels of my previously mentioned definition of morality. I will say, though that the U.S. has its nose in too many countries' business.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/21/2016 6:41:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 2:59:41 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:25:23 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:07:33 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 1:42:37 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
1) What do you think morality is, if not only sacred religious strictures?
I think that morality is a balance between empathy that we feel for others and logic.
There are situations where people can get outraged, even when no obvious harm is being done -- for example the desecration of a sacred text or symbol. Do you view it as morality?
In this example, the outraged person is acting more on emotion than anything.
So morality may have nothing to do with empathy or logic? Is it sometimes perhaps related to a sense of sacred custom, however well-founded or not?

Morality is subjective.
The way that I see it, a fair law allows for happiness, comfort, and protection of all that abide by it.
If morality is purely subjective, how can any law or custom be fair or unfair? Surely it's just appealing or unappealing to some individuals?

Is it legitimate to demonise, monitor and intern [minorities]if a majority decides it's in their interests to do so?
It is not right
If morality is subjective, how can anyone's idea of rightness be held superior to anyone else's? Under what ethos can anything be demanded or forbidden, except the tyranny of the privileged?

Do you hold that the morality of genocide is subjective? Do you therefore oppose sanctions and military interventions in sovereign nations aimed at preventing genocide?
I do think that genocide should be prevented
Why, when morality is subjective? Might it not benefit survivors socially and economically to kill off subcultures of citizens who, though they act lawfully and in good faith, are nevertheless not respected or valued? Is it right to harm citizens for exercising their democratically legislated rights?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,322
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7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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7/21/2016 4:47:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So God is only found inside you and there is no scientific evidence at all? Isn't that just a around the bush way of saying God is in your head? You cannot just say "God is real, and the only evidence you can find is in yourself." That proves nothing. If you want to prove that God is real, you must provide real, objective evidence. Not this look inside yourself stuff. I could say that only if you look inside yourself will you find proof of the flying pink elephant that lives in your shoes, but that doesn't prove that there is actually a flying pink elephant in your shoes.

Also, you cannot say that I would be happier if I believed in God. I used to believe in God, and I honestly think that I am much happier and better off now than I was.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/21/2016 4:59:20 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 4:47:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So God is only found inside you and there is no scientific evidence at all? Isn't that just a around the bush way of saying God is in your head? You cannot just say "God is real, and the only evidence you can find is in yourself." That proves nothing. If you want to prove that God is real, you must provide real, objective evidence. Not this look inside yourself stuff. I could say that only if you look inside yourself will you find proof of the flying pink elephant that lives in your shoes, but that doesn't prove that there is actually a flying pink elephant in your shoes.

Also, you cannot say that I would be happier if I believed in God. I used to believe in God, and I honestly think that I am much happier and better off now than I was.

Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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7/21/2016 5:05:17 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 4:59:20 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:47:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So God is only found inside you and there is no scientific evidence at all? Isn't that just a around the bush way of saying God is in your head? You cannot just say "God is real, and the only evidence you can find is in yourself." That proves nothing. If you want to prove that God is real, you must provide real, objective evidence. Not this look inside yourself stuff. I could say that only if you look inside yourself will you find proof of the flying pink elephant that lives in your shoes, but that doesn't prove that there is actually a flying pink elephant in your shoes.

Also, you cannot say that I would be happier if I believed in God. I used to believe in God, and I honestly think that I am much happier and better off now than I was.

Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

You believe the Egyptian, Greek and Roman gods all existed?

btw Where was the Greek empire?
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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7/21/2016 5:08:04 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 4:59:20 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:47:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So God is only found inside you and there is no scientific evidence at all? Isn't that just a around the bush way of saying God is in your head? You cannot just say "God is real, and the only evidence you can find is in yourself." That proves nothing. If you want to prove that God is real, you must provide real, objective evidence. Not this look inside yourself stuff. I could say that only if you look inside yourself will you find proof of the flying pink elephant that lives in your shoes, but that doesn't prove that there is actually a flying pink elephant in your shoes.

Also, you cannot say that I would be happier if I believed in God. I used to believe in God, and I honestly think that I am much happier and better off now than I was.

Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?
So because Odin is real so is Yahweh.
BTW you've already conceded that the bible is not a historical document, remember 400yrs of slavery?
ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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7/21/2016 5:15:25 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:41:30 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:59:41 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:25:23 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:07:33 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 1:42:37 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
1) What do you think morality is, if not only sacred religious strictures?
I think that morality is a balance between empathy that we feel for others and logic.
There are situations where people can get outraged, even when no obvious harm is being done -- for example the desecration of a sacred text or symbol. Do you view it as morality?
In this example, the outraged person is acting more on emotion than anything.
So morality may have nothing to do with empathy or logic? Is it sometimes perhaps related to a sense of sacred custom, however well-founded or not?

This is true. Many people derive their morals from their religion and don't really question them. That, I believe, is another problem with morality by religion. There is no question of whether or not this set of morals is logical or if it hurts other people. It is just accepted and followed without question. Not all religious people are like this, though. Some do distance their morals from their religion a bit. They still derive many of their morals from the religion, but still question them and decide for themselves which ones they will live by.

Morality is subjective.
The way that I see it, a fair law allows for happiness, comfort, and protection of all that abide by it.
If morality is purely subjective, how can any law or custom be fair or unfair? Surely it's just appealing or unappealing to some individuals?

Laws are generally not made for moral reasons. They are made to provide happiness, comfort, and protection for as many people as possible. If we assume that morality is subjective, then it is true that some will find these laws unappealing or unfair. These people, however, (as long as it is a good law as I have described it) would be a very small group of people. Not every law will make everyone happy. Like the gay marriage law. It is now federal law that gays are allowed to marry in every state in the U.S. This made most people happy and allowed for the happiness of the majority of the people in the U.S. There was and is a minority, though, that thought that the law was unappealing. It is true that not everyone will be supportive of every law, as morality is subjective, but that is not the purpose of laws.

Is it legitimate to demonise, monitor and intern [minorities]if a majority decides it's in their interests to do so?
It is not right
If morality is subjective, how can anyone's idea of rightness be held superior to anyone else's? Under what ethos can anything be demanded or forbidden, except the tyranny of the privileged?

That was just my opinion. You are right. If morality is subjective, not everyone will agree on what is right and what is wrong. It is never just black and white. There are gray areas everywhere. When I ask myself if something is right or wrong, there are two general questions that I ask. Who is this helping, and who is this hurting? When it comes to demonizing and monitoring a minority, it doesn't help anyone. We aren't actually catching terrorists by watching out for Muslims or anyone from the Middle-East. All that it does is put people into constant paranoia and allow discrimination against a (for the most part) perfectly fine group of people. And that is the answer to the second question.

Do you hold that the morality of genocide is subjective? Do you therefore oppose sanctions and military interventions in sovereign nations aimed at preventing genocide?
I do think that genocide should be prevented
Why, when morality is subjective? Might it not benefit survivors socially and economically to kill off subcultures of citizens who, though they act lawfully and in good faith, are nevertheless not respected or valued? Is it right to harm citizens for exercising their democratically legislated rights?

Logically, it would make sense to kill off certain people if it would help the majority, but that only works if you think logically. You are missing the empathy part. Though, it may work out logically, the people that you are killing are still human beings with feelings like you and I. This is why we as humans have empathy. It is an evolutionary advantage. Without it, we would wipe each other out. Genocide is never a good solution.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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7/21/2016 5:26:33 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

Yes, many cultures did have some kind of God or multiple Gods, but that doesn't mean that any of them were real. If you look at all of these cultures and their Gods, you will find one thing in common. All of them were created to explain something that the people did not understand. the Greeks and the Romans had Gods to explain thunder, lightning, the sea, where you go when you die, where the Earth came from, and so on. Christianity had the one God that controlled all of this. The fact that so many cultures had Gods does not prove that any of them existed. It says more about human nature. We as humans crave knowledge and order. We want to know how things work. Since civilizations of the past did not know or have the capabilities to learn how many natural phenomena occurred, they had to come up with an explanation. This explanation was that there was a more powerful being that controlled and created these phenomena. We now know this to be false, and yet the religions tied to these Gods still exist.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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7/21/2016 5:57:39 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I am going to be gone for 3-4 hours, so don't expect any responses from me for a while.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/21/2016 6:08:35 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 5:05:17 PM, desmac wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:59:20 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:47:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So God is only found inside you and there is no scientific evidence at all? Isn't that just a around the bush way of saying God is in your head? You cannot just say "God is real, and the only evidence you can find is in yourself." That proves nothing. If you want to prove that God is real, you must provide real, objective evidence. Not this look inside yourself stuff. I could say that only if you look inside yourself will you find proof of the flying pink elephant that lives in your shoes, but that doesn't prove that there is actually a flying pink elephant in your shoes.

Also, you cannot say that I would be happier if I believed in God. I used to believe in God, and I honestly think that I am much happier and better off now than I was.

Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

You believe the Egyptian, Greek and Roman gods all existed?

Yes. I wouldnt agree they were who they said they were when revealed, or thats its the truth, but spuritual beings with superiority nontheless.

btw Where was the Greek empire?
Alexander the greats. He defeated the persians.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/21/2016 6:10:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 5:08:04 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:59:20 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:47:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So God is only found inside you and there is no scientific evidence at all? Isn't that just a around the bush way of saying God is in your head? You cannot just say "God is real, and the only evidence you can find is in yourself." That proves nothing. If you want to prove that God is real, you must provide real, objective evidence. Not this look inside yourself stuff. I could say that only if you look inside yourself will you find proof of the flying pink elephant that lives in your shoes, but that doesn't prove that there is actually a flying pink elephant in your shoes.

Also, you cannot say that I would be happier if I believed in God. I used to believe in God, and I honestly think that I am much happier and better off now than I was.

Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?
So because Odin is real so is Yahweh.

Yes, if spiritual beings exist this is a strong evidence for the supernatural.

BTW you've already conceded that the bible is not a historical document, remember 400yrs of slavery?
What do you mean? I took your non response to mine as acceptence of modern archaeology. Feel free to believe in whatever alternative history though.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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7/21/2016 6:12:41 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:08:35 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:05:17 PM, desmac wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:59:20 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:47:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So God is only found inside you and there is no scientific evidence at all? Isn't that just a around the bush way of saying God is in your head? You cannot just say "God is real, and the only evidence you can find is in yourself." That proves nothing. If you want to prove that God is real, you must provide real, objective evidence. Not this look inside yourself stuff. I could say that only if you look inside yourself will you find proof of the flying pink elephant that lives in your shoes, but that doesn't prove that there is actually a flying pink elephant in your shoes.

Also, you cannot say that I would be happier if I believed in God. I used to believe in God, and I honestly think that I am much happier and better off now than I was.

Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

You believe the Egyptian, Greek and Roman gods all existed?

Yes. I wouldnt agree they were who they said they were when revealed, or thats its the truth, but spuritual beings with superiority nontheless.

You may well be the first polytheistic christian I have encountered

btw Where was the Greek empire?
Alexander the greats. He defeated the persians.

He was Macedonian.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/21/2016 6:15:32 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 5:26:33 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

Yes, many cultures did have some kind of God or multiple Gods, but that doesn't mean that any of them were real. If you look at all of these cultures and their Gods, you will find one thing in common. All of them were created to explain something that the people did not understand. the Greeks and the Romans had Gods to explain thunder, lightning, the sea, where you go when you die, where the Earth came from, and so on. Christianity had the one God that controlled all of this. The fact that so many cultures had Gods does not prove that any of them existed. It says more about human nature. We as humans crave knowledge and order. We want to know how things work. Since civilizations of the past did not know or have the capabilities to learn how many natural phenomena occurred, they had to come up with an explanation. This explanation was that there was a more powerful being that controlled and created these phenomena. We now know this to be false, and yet the religions tied to these Gods still exist.

Well I think you need to be careful where your taking that thought because what you are indeed accusing people of, and these are smart people. Probably smarter than you or I or even many intellectuals today. That is in the absence of evidence, making some stuff up. Do you really believe all the cultures all around the globe often times with no contact with one another felt compulsed to make things up and do you think thats what scientists are doing today? If not why do you think theres a difference in old vs new scientifical thought in terms of making things up.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/21/2016 6:22:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:12:41 PM, desmac wrote:
At 7/21/2016 6:08:35 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:05:17 PM, desmac wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:59:20 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:47:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So God is only found inside you and there is no scientific evidence at all? Isn't that just a around the bush way of saying God is in your head? You cannot just say "God is real, and the only evidence you can find is in yourself." That proves nothing. If you want to prove that God is real, you must provide real, objective evidence. Not this look inside yourself stuff. I could say that only if you look inside yourself will you find proof of the flying pink elephant that lives in your shoes, but that doesn't prove that there is actually a flying pink elephant in your shoes.

Also, you cannot say that I would be happier if I believed in God. I used to believe in God, and I honestly think that I am much happier and better off now than I was.

Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

You believe the Egyptian, Greek and Roman gods all existed?

Yes. I wouldnt agree they were who they said they were when revealed, or thats its the truth, but spuritual beings with superiority nontheless.

You may well be the first polytheistic christian I have encountered

I would be if I worshipped multiple gods but I believe these other gods to be false or the work of demons ect.

Im curious your take on it though? What do you make of this early spirituality and interaction with various gods accross the globe?

btw Where was the Greek empire?
Alexander the greats. He defeated the persians.

He was Macedonian.
Im surprised someone would argue such a basic fact of history
"Classical Greece began with the era of the Persian Wars. Because of conquests by Alexander the Great of Macedonia, Hellenistic civilization flourished from Central Asia to the western end of the Mediterranean Sea."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
Harikrish
Posts: 11,011
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7/21/2016 6:44:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jesus taught cannibalism.

John 6:54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

Any wonder why his family thought he was a madman.

Mark 3:21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

And John the Baptist expressed his doubts to Jesus.
Luke 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

Any wonder why they asked that Jesus be crucified.
Luke 23:21 But they kept shouting, "Crucify him! Crucify him!"

Any wonder why Jesus felt betrayed and forsaken by God on the cross.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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7/21/2016 6:47:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:22:09 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 6:12:41 PM, desmac wrote:
At 7/21/2016 6:08:35 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:05:17 PM, desmac wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:59:20 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 4:47:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So God is only found inside you and there is no scientific evidence at all? Isn't that just a around the bush way of saying God is in your head? You cannot just say "God is real, and the only evidence you can find is in yourself." That proves nothing. If you want to prove that God is real, you must provide real, objective evidence. Not this look inside yourself stuff. I could say that only if you look inside yourself will you find proof of the flying pink elephant that lives in your shoes, but that doesn't prove that there is actually a flying pink elephant in your shoes.

Also, you cannot say that I would be happier if I believed in God. I used to believe in God, and I honestly think that I am much happier and better off now than I was.

Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

You believe the Egyptian, Greek and Roman gods all existed?

Yes. I wouldnt agree they were who they said they were when revealed, or thats its the truth, but spuritual beings with superiority nontheless.

You may well be the first polytheistic christian I have encountered

I would be if I worshipped multiple gods but I believe these other gods to be false or the work of demons ect.

What is a false god?

Im curious your take on it though? What do you make of this early spirituality and interaction with various gods accross the globe?

Primitive man's fear of the the unknown and the forces of nature led him personalise these forces as gods. Followed by a priest caste/class who preferred an easy living by claiming to communicate with these gods.

btw Where was the Greek empire?
Alexander the greats. He defeated the persians.

He was Macedonian.
Im surprised someone would argue such a basic fact of history
"Classical Greece began with the era of the Persian Wars. Because of conquests by Alexander the Great of Macedonia, Hellenistic civilization flourished from Central Asia to the western end of the Mediterranean Sea."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

I will grant you that at the time of Alexander's father (Phillip II) Macedonia was a peripheral greek state. However, I have never heard of Alexander's conquests being described as a Greek Empire. I was trying to score a cheap point and apologise for doing so.
ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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7/21/2016 10:50:56 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:15:32 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:26:33 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

Yes, many cultures did have some kind of God or multiple Gods, but that doesn't mean that any of them were real. If you look at all of these cultures and their Gods, you will find one thing in common. All of them were created to explain something that the people did not understand. the Greeks and the Romans had Gods to explain thunder, lightning, the sea, where you go when you die, where the Earth came from, and so on. Christianity had the one God that controlled all of this. The fact that so many cultures had Gods does not prove that any of them existed. It says more about human nature. We as humans crave knowledge and order. We want to know how things work. Since civilizations of the past did not know or have the capabilities to learn how many natural phenomena occurred, they had to come up with an explanation. This explanation was that there was a more powerful being that controlled and created these phenomena. We now know this to be false, and yet the religions tied to these Gods still exist.

Well I think you need to be careful where your taking that thought because what you are indeed accusing people of, and these are smart people. Probably smarter than you or I or even many intellectuals today. That is in the absence of evidence, making some stuff up. Do you really believe all the cultures all around the globe often times with no contact with one another felt compulsed to make things up and do you think thats what scientists are doing today? If not why do you think theres a difference in old vs new scientifical thought in terms of making things up.

Old civilizations did not have evidence or the means to obtain evidence to explain many natural phenomena. In an effort to explain something that they could never understand, they (in your words) made things up. The difference between their methods and today's are that we actually use science. We do have the means to explain things like lightning and other phenomena that older cultures never could. In science there is no making things up. Scientists don't just think of random things that could explain something and claim that they exist. There is a process. Hypothesis, testing and experimentation, and the hypothesis is either changed and retested or evolves into a theory which remains correct until proven wrong. There may have been some pretty smart people from older cultures, but they didn't have the means or the knowledge that we have today.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
ANON_TacTiX
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7/21/2016 10:59:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 10:50:56 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 6:15:32 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:26:33 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

Yes, many cultures did have some kind of God or multiple Gods, but that doesn't mean that any of them were real. If you look at all of these cultures and their Gods, you will find one thing in common. All of them were created to explain something that the people did not understand. the Greeks and the Romans had Gods to explain thunder, lightning, the sea, where you go when you die, where the Earth came from, and so on. Christianity had the one God that controlled all of this. The fact that so many cultures had Gods does not prove that any of them existed. It says more about human nature. We as humans crave knowledge and order. We want to know how things work. Since civilizations of the past did not know or have the capabilities to learn how many natural phenomena occurred, they had to come up with an explanation. This explanation was that there was a more powerful being that controlled and created these phenomena. We now know this to be false, and yet the religions tied to these Gods still exist.

Well I think you need to be careful where your taking that thought because what you are indeed accusing people of, and these are smart people. Probably smarter than you or I or even many intellectuals today. That is in the absence of evidence, making some stuff up. Do you really believe all the cultures all around the globe often times with no contact with one another felt compulsed to make things up and do you think thats what scientists are doing today? If not why do you think theres a difference in old vs new scientifical thought in terms of making things up.

Old civilizations did not have evidence or the means to obtain evidence to explain many natural phenomena. In an effort to explain something that they could never understand, they (in your words) made things up. The difference between their methods and today's are that we actually use science. We do have the means to explain things like lightning and other phenomena that older cultures never could. In science there is no making things up. Scientists don't just think of random things that could explain something and claim that they exist. There is a process. Hypothesis, testing and experimentation, and the hypothesis is either changed and retested or evolves into a theory which remains correct until proven wrong. There may have been some pretty smart people from older cultures, but they didn't have the means or the knowledge that we have today. And the fact that they believed in Gods proves nothing today.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
dsjpk5
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7/22/2016 12:24:11 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 1:35:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
I am an atheist, but I have always found religious debates to be a fun and engaging way to share ideas and opinions. I hope that this forum will help people do just that.

I don't care what we talk about, as long as it is related to religion. The existence or nonexistence of a God and morality of religion are two of my favorite topics, but I am open to others.

I hope that we can all have a good debate. No insults or name calling, as they always seem to ruin a forum for everyone involved. If an argument is going in circles, please move on to a new one, as repetitive posts make forums less stimulating and more tedious. I hope that this forum will attract many different opinions and ideas and that we can all share these ideas in a way that keeps this forum interesting. Happy debating.

Welcome!
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
bigotry
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7/22/2016 1:39:36 AM
Posted: 4 months ago

What is a false god?

false.

[f"ls]

ADJECTIVE

1.not according with truth or fact; incorrect:
"the test can produce false results" "
[more]
synonyms: incorrect " untrue " wrong " erroneous " fallacious "
[more]
2.appearing to be the thing denoted; deliberately made or meant to deceive:

"check to see if the trunk has a false bottom" "
[more]
3.illusory; not actually so:

"sunscreens give users a false sense of security"

4.treacherous; unfaithful:

"a false lover"

A false god generally fits into the second category. We are told time and time again that false gods are there to deceive, satan being the biggest deceiver. Ironic the quran calls "allah" the best deceiver don't you think?
Its akin to a fake boss. someone at work pretending to run the show until the ceo shows up. then hes kissing his you know what.


Im curious your take on it though? What do you make of this early spirituality and interaction with various gods accross the globe?

Primitive man's fear of the the unknown and the forces of nature led him personalise these forces as gods. Followed by a priest caste/class who preferred an easy living by claiming to communicate with these gods.

At what point would you say man stopped being primitive? So when these groups and various religions around the world speak about these "gods" interacting with them or appearing before them you think they just heard the wind whistling and decided to found their nation on principals based on events that never happened? I can give you a more recent example even in a time I don't think anyone could argue man was primitive. Ever heard of the vril society? It was a small group of Germans who thought through magical spells and rituals, could manifest spiritually a connection with their ancestors. A name you might recognize from this group was Rudolph Hess. The Thule society which also thought that they could do occult rituals, make contact with spirits ect is another occult group which hitler became a member of. Eventually the Thule society (though never officially dissolved) became the german workers party or as we all know it as the Nazi party.

Now people look at a man like hitler and his inner circle and wonder, how could a living human being do something so heinous? They weren't stupid, here are some notable members iq's that were taken before the Nuremburg trials
The IQs of 21 defendants in the Nuremberg trials were measured in 1945 by Gustave Gilbert, an American psychologist who studied the prisoners extensively. The test used was the Wechsler-Bellevue (in German). The scores were as follows:
The IQs of 21 defendants in the Nuremberg trials were measured in 1945 by Gustave Gilbert, an American psychologist who studied the prisoners extensively. The test used was the Wechsler-Bellevue (in German). The scores were as follows:
Doenitz, Karl 138
Frank, Hans 130
Frick, Wilhelm 124
Fritzsche, Hans 130
Funk, Walther 124
Goering, Hermann 138
Hess, Rudolf 120
Jodl, Alfred 127
Kaltenbrunner, Ernst 113
Keitel, Wilhelm 129
Neurath, Konstantin von 125
Papen, Franz von 134
Raeder, Erich 134
Ribbentrop, Joachim von 129
Rosenberg, Alfred 127
Sauckel, Fritz 118
Schacht, Hjalmar 143
Schirach, Baldur von 130
Seyss-Inquart, Arthur 141
Speer, Albert 128
Streicher, Julius 106 (lowest one on the team)
http://law2.umkc.edu...
These men knew what was going on and knew why they were doing it. It is thought hitler and Crowley used to try and connect telepathically even with Himmler describing the relationship between the two as one of merlin and king Arthur. Youll find it interesting to note that Himmler even tried to replicate this Arthur and his knights scenario with the ss meeting at wewelsburg castle. theres an interesting article on the castle I just found, check it out for you leisure.
http://www.spiegel.de...

So what is my point with all this rambling of connecting hitler to occult groups and that the origin of pretty much everything the Nazis planned came from occult ideology?
The point is that even smart, intelligent individuals, so smart they almost actually took over the entire globe believed in the supernatural and their interactions with it were not fake. They based their entire plan on things learned from these practices. Himmler even sent archeologists to Tibet to try to find Aryan remains. If you think people merely make up their gods then youll have to show the Nazis simply made up theirs. Its hardly an accident they were obsessed with getting rid of Jews (Gods people of lineage) and protestants (Gods gentile and reformed Jewish people).


btw Where was the Greek empire?
Alexander the greats. He defeated the persians.

He was Macedonian.
Im surprised someone would argue such a basic fact of history
"Classical Greece began with the era of the Persian Wars. Because of conquests by Alexander the Great of Macedonia, Hellenistic civilization flourished from Central Asia to the western end of the Mediterranean Sea."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

I will grant you that at the time of Alexander's father (Phillip II) Macedonia was a peripheral greek state. However, I have never heard of Alexander's conquests being described as a Greek Empire. I was trying to score a cheap point and apologise for doing so.
your fine. I was just a little confused if I got something really wrong there lol
bigotry
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7/22/2016 1:56:36 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 10:50:56 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 6:15:32 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:26:33 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

Yes, many cultures did have some kind of God or multiple Gods, but that doesn't mean that any of them were real. If you look at all of these cultures and their Gods, you will find one thing in common. All of them were created to explain something that the people did not understand. the Greeks and the Romans had Gods to explain thunder, lightning, the sea, where you go when you die, where the Earth came from, and so on. Christianity had the one God that controlled all of this. The fact that so many cultures had Gods does not prove that any of them existed. It says more about human nature. We as humans crave knowledge and order. We want to know how things work. Since civilizations of the past did not know or have the capabilities to learn how many natural phenomena occurred, they had to come up with an explanation. This explanation was that there was a more powerful being that controlled and created these phenomena. We now know this to be false, and yet the religions tied to these Gods still exist.

Well I think you need to be careful where your taking that thought because what you are indeed accusing people of, and these are smart people. Probably smarter than you or I or even many intellectuals today. That is in the absence of evidence, making some stuff up. Do you really believe all the cultures all around the globe often times with no contact with one another felt compulsed to make things up and do you think thats what scientists are doing today? If not why do you think theres a difference in old vs new scientifical thought in terms of making things up.

Old civilizations did not have evidence or the means to obtain evidence to explain many natural phenomena. In an effort to explain something that they could never understand, they (in your words) made things up. The difference between their methods and today's are that we actually use science. We do have the means to explain things like lightning and other phenomena that older cultures never could. In science there is no making things up. Scientists don't just think of random things that could explain something and claim that they exist. There is a process. Hypothesis, testing and experimentation, and the hypothesis is either changed and retested or evolves into a theory which remains correct until proven wrong. There may have been some pretty smart people from older cultures, but they didn't have the means or the knowledge that we have today.
So its your position the ancients had no system of science?
You would also hold then that ancient peoples had no verification system for events, they just sort of made everything up as they went along? I have to again ask you to consider where you going with this because by one token your saying ancient people just made these things up out of convenience yet these are the same groups that built great structures, citys, advanced their civilizations and world understanding in their day.
lotsoffun
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7/22/2016 2:29:01 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 1:35:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
I am an atheist, but I have always found religious debates to be a fun and engaging way to share ideas and opinions. I hope that this forum will help people do just that.

I don't care what we talk about, as long as it is related to religion. The existence or nonexistence of a God and morality of religion are two of my favorite topics, but I am open to others.

I hope that we can all have a good debate. No insults or name calling, as they always seem to ruin a forum for everyone involved. If an argument is going in circles, please move on to a new one, as repetitive posts make forums less stimulating and more tedious. I hope that this forum will attract many different opinions and ideas and that we can all share these ideas in a way that keeps this forum interesting. Happy debating.

It's impossible to debate an atheist if you believe in a higher or all encompassing power. first off, god has to be defined. There are numerous definitions and depending upon your level of awareness or consciousness, the atheist cannot comprehend what is being explained to them. It's only a matter of levels of consciousness.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,322
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7/22/2016 2:59:11 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 4:47:15 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So God is only found inside you and there is no scientific evidence at all? Isn't that just a around the bush way of saying God is in your head? You cannot just say "God is real, and the only evidence you can find is in yourself." That proves nothing. If you want to prove that God is real, you must provide real, objective evidence. Not this look inside yourself stuff. I could say that only if you look inside yourself will you find proof of the flying pink elephant that lives in your shoes, but that doesn't prove that there is actually a flying pink elephant in your shoes.


When did I say "look inside yourself" lol? you kind of missed the point...here are some you missed since you don't like poetry... do you understand the nature of God?...did you read the verse I gave you in John 4 vs 23,24? what's it telling you? the nature of God and how we operate therein? well why not investigate there rather than blowing hot air up the butt of science I'm trying to give you keys here, YOU wanted to discuss religion intelligently and without insults and here you go with sarcasm before we ever began, so much for a decent talk I guess...
Did you read any of the verses I left at all?? you responded to nothing I wrote that was relevant to you, nor the passages, if you don't understand them I can give you deeper insight.
Part of spirituality is your own involvement and contribution, it's a give and take lifestyle/relationship not just some label or something you can find in a science book. What part of this world, relationships, learning ect does not involve our participation to gain something from?
What do you do when you want to learn something? how to play an instrument, what do you do when you're hungry? who do you go see when you're sick? where do you go when your car breaks down? Spirituality is the same way, it's no different, that is what I meant about involvement and that's kind of the idea behind the rest of the verses I left, I call it application. It's your involvement or pursuit when you want to gain something, inquire or investigate...you have to CONSUME, that's why Jesus illustrates eating His flesh, or that He is the "bread of life".
When you sow into the spiritual, you reap from the spirit so if the nature of God is Spirit and not material is the passage in John 4 correct? according to the nature of things? if not then please elaborate...
So no, there is no "scientific" evidence for a God who is Spirit not because God does not exist but because science studies the natural world, it's not equipped, it's not capable. God is outside the scope of what science examines and this should be simple enough for a child to see.
If God is not a material object or a flesh human to be observed Himself, what do we observe then? what are we applying to investigate? do you know what a principle is? how they operate and how you examine them? they are the essential characteristics that govern the spiritual Kingdom...God Himself and His domain. Spiritual principles work the same way any system of principle works, they can be observed. This of course was the point of the last part of the poem.

Also, you cannot say that I would be happier if I believed in God. I used to believe in God, and I honestly think that I am much happier and better off now than I was.

Satan believes and it doesn't contribute to his happiness, so no I wouldn't say that. You "used" to believe in God, but did you connect with God? did you abide in His principles? there is a difference between believing and relating.
Actually sometimes believing in God is intimidating, but relating to God is fun....not because He's scary but because it's a whole other reality to deal with and consider. I think sometimes it would be easier just to be an atheist because what's scary about nothing when you die? however I can't lie to myself about what I have observed and learned.
So no, I don't think simply "believing" in some God will make you happier, what would make you happier is if you could engage the reality of the spirit because this would involve your participation and observation, not just some belief.
EtrnlVw
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7/22/2016 3:02:58 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:44:47 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 7/21/2016 2:10:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
There once was an Atheist named TacTix, who pulled out a topic of tricks
If only he knew the nature of God, TacTix wouldn't be so betwixt.
Little would he know, if only he had applied it would have all made perfect sense.

But without comprehending the nature of God TacTix would never believe
Cause he tried and he tried but never revealed, the proof of God he wanted to see.
If only TacTix knew the nature of God, that involvement was the golden key,
knowing God is looking for the heart, TacTix would then be pleased.

Like a flower that yields it's beauty from a seed, you would have never known unless it was sown
So as TacTix must yield his soul to see, then he will know he can call God his own.
Cause blessed is he that pursues and seeks, he who applies may God be known.

John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jesus taught cannibalism.

John 6:54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

Any wonder why his family thought he was a madman.

Mark 3:21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

And John the Baptist expressed his doubts to Jesus.
Luke 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

Any wonder why they asked that Jesus be crucified.
Luke 23:21 But they kept shouting, "Crucify him! Crucify him!"

Any wonder why Jesus felt betrayed and forsaken by God on the cross.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

LOL, I got nothing but love for you, but nice try though. let me know when you're ready to move them mountains.
ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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7/22/2016 3:26:51 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 1:56:36 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 10:50:56 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 7/21/2016 6:15:32 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:26:33 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
Not to butt into your separate conversation but God if he exists must have revealed himself in some way shape or form. The whole history of Jews and Christians has a basis in the bible and that bible being a written historical testament to various points in time of revealing. Now according to the scriptures that is THE God. There are other groups that have had their own interactions but constantly you have God showing up these other gods in the OT for the purpose of providing evidence of himself. Dont you find it extremely coincidental every single culture in history had a relationship of some sort with spiritual beings? So much so they built their entire societys and empires even around them? These arent dilusional people, they are merely testifying to a past event. Look at the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks ect. All great empires with great advancements and intellect and yet they ALL held to a spiritual identity. What do you think?

Yes, many cultures did have some kind of God or multiple Gods, but that doesn't mean that any of them were real. If you look at all of these cultures and their Gods, you will find one thing in common. All of them were created to explain something that the people did not understand. the Greeks and the Romans had Gods to explain thunder, lightning, the sea, where you go when you die, where the Earth came from, and so on. Christianity had the one God that controlled all of this. The fact that so many cultures had Gods does not prove that any of them existed. It says more about human nature. We as humans crave knowledge and order. We want to know how things work. Since civilizations of the past did not know or have the capabilities to learn how many natural phenomena occurred, they had to come up with an explanation. This explanation was that there was a more powerful being that controlled and created these phenomena. We now know this to be false, and yet the religions tied to these Gods still exist.

Well I think you need to be careful where your taking that thought because what you are indeed accusing people of, and these are smart people. Probably smarter than you or I or even many intellectuals today. That is in the absence of evidence, making some stuff up. Do you really believe all the cultures all around the globe often times with no contact with one another felt compulsed to make things up and do you think thats what scientists are doing today? If not why do you think theres a difference in old vs new scientifical thought in terms of making things up.

Old civilizations did not have evidence or the means to obtain evidence to explain many natural phenomena. In an effort to explain something that they could never understand, they (in your words) made things up. The difference between their methods and today's are that we actually use science. We do have the means to explain things like lightning and other phenomena that older cultures never could. In science there is no making things up. Scientists don't just think of random things that could explain something and claim that they exist. There is a process. Hypothesis, testing and experimentation, and the hypothesis is either changed and retested or evolves into a theory which remains correct until proven wrong. There may have been some pretty smart people from older cultures, but they didn't have the means or the knowledge that we have today.
So its your position the ancients had no system of science?

They had a system of science, but is was flawed and extremely primative when compared to what we have today.

You would also hold then that ancient peoples had no verification system for events, they just sort of made everything up as they went along? I have to again ask you to consider where you going with this because by one token your saying ancient people just made these things up out of convenience yet these are the same groups that built great structures, citys, advanced their civilizations and world understanding in their day.

I didn't say that they made up events. i said that they made up stories and supernatural beings to explain things that they could not figure out using science.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein