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Question to Muslims

UtherPenguin
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7/21/2016 7:02:08 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:16:23 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
How do you justify Muhammad having a relationship with a 9 year old? (Aisha)

- Child marriages were common in that era, it's not a question of pedophilia, as most marriages of that nature were for pragmatic reasons (either in merging two prominent families, increasing collective land holdings or as a gesture of peace making).

-The age of consent among 7th century Arabs was puberty, and in hot climates, women tended to mature much quicker given both weather and low life expectancies. So puberty occured at a much younger age. Futher proof of this in French philosopher Montesquieu, whom in his treatise The Spirit of Laws (which used in the development of the American constitution) also states that women in hot climate, women were marriageable at ages 8,9 and 10 years old. And that was in reference to consummation itself, and not chaste marital relations. Consummation was a means of formalizing a marriage, which is why Aisha (RA) was married at 6 but not consummated until 9.

- Aisha (RA) herself was extremely happy about the marriage, both when she was married and long after Muhammad (pbuh) had died. Having narrated over 9,000 hadith and later becoming an 'Alim (scholar) during the reign of Ali (RA).
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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7/21/2016 7:54:27 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:16:23 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
How do you justify Muhammad having a relationship with a 9 year old? (Aisha)

Aisha turned out to be a fine wife and the most beloved of all the prophets wives. The prophet had a positive influence on Aisha as much as she complemented him.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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7/21/2016 7:55:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:16:23 PM, triangle.128k wrote:

The NON-Muslim Argument.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha : that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.
The hadith says "consummate" clearly indicating sex.

Muslim response:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

(Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311).

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3310

The hadiths show with context, that Muhammad married Aisha at 6 (wrote the contract), and he entered into the contract when she was 9 by living together. Not that she had sex at 9. So consummation is referring to living together. Not sex.

Non-Muslim Response:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha : that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.

An Ayeshath Radhiyallahu Anha : AnnaNnabiyya Sallallahu Alaihi Vasallama Thazawwajaha vahiya binthu sitha sineen, va udkhilath alaihi vahiya binthu this"in.

{In this hadith, the word "udkhilath" was translated by Dr Mohsin Khan to mean "consummated his marriage".}

The root of the verb "udkhilath" is "dakhala" which means to "enter". This is the common Arabic meaning though there are other definitions, none of which can be made to fit with the context of the hadith above.

An English definition commonly found on the internet is this from the Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273 : "to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman".

The phrase dakhala is translated as "consummated the marriage" in the hadith. The specific transliteration here is udkhilath alaihi, showing that the object of the sentence isn't marriage (a specific word not used in this part of the sentence), but rather Aisha. He entered Aisha, not "entered the marriage" in the Arabic.

This proves from the Arabic that consummate means sex.

Muslim Response:

Dakhala does mean to enter, yet what is being entered is dependent upon the context and the context clearly demonstrates that it refers entering into the contract by living together. Not sex. Furthermore, the definition you provided says it also means cohabit. This is what you provided:

..from the Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273 : "to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman". Also the following link below shows the definition is to also cohabit.

www perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2002.02.0022%3Aroot%3Ddx l%3Aentry%3Ddaxala

Furthermore, the hadith itself shows that it refers to entering into the contract and not her in Arabic. Let"s analyze:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha : that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.

An Ayeshath Radhiyallahu Anha : AnnaNnabiyya Sallallahu Alaihi Vasallama Thazawwajaha vahiya binthu sitha sineen, va udkhilath alaihi vahiya binthu this"in.

Furthermore, the hadith itself shows that it refers to entering into the contract and not her in Arabic. Let"s analyze:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha : that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.

An Ayeshath Radhiyallahu Anha : AnnaNnabiyya Sallallahu Alaihi Vasallama Thazawwajaha vahiya binthu sitha sineen, va udkhilath alaihi vahiya binthu this"in.

Notice the following in the translation and transliteration, side by side.

1. Married her when she was 6..............Thazawwajaha vahiya binthu sitha sineen,
2. Entered her when she was 9..............udkhilath alaihi vahiya binthu this"in

The sentences are identical. The only difference from the second sentence than the first is the words "entered" and "9". So to translate it to mean entered her when she was 9, all that is necessary is to remove "married" and "6", and replace it with "entered" and "9". Yet clearly, we see another word is introduced. That word is "alaihi."


Clearly showing that the sentence does not mean enter her because another word is introduced. If it was to mean he entered her, it would not be necessary to add an additional word. Proving from the Arabic that it means he entered into what"s upon him. Not entered her. So since it is a marriage contract that is upon him, then it means he entered into the marriage contract. Not her

Another interesting point is when we look at the very next hadith, with the same translation.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated `Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old.

We can clearly see that the same translation is used. Yet the Arabic words for consummate is NOT udkhilat. It is "wabanaa", which means "built or constructed". So we see that consummated his marriage in this hadith is translated from the Arabic "built with her". Referring to the building of the marriage between the Prophet and Aisha.

The fact of the matter is that the expression "consummates the marriage" is stated many times in all the six collections of Sunni hadiths, and the Arabic word "dakhala" is not used each time. Other Arabic expressions are used as well.

So the argument that consummate means sex because it is translated from an Arabic word that means "to enter" in one hadith is invalid, since the very next hadith uses the same translation from a different Arabic word "wabanaa", referring to something that is built. Furthermore, there are other hadiths that use a different expression Arabic expression for the same translation.. And when we analyze the many narrations that refer to living together, then it shows from the context that the hadith refers to entering the marriage contract or the marriage being built upon by living together when she was 9. Not sex.

Non-Muslim Response:

If consummation does not means sex, then how do you explain the following hadith that translates it not as living together, but clearly states sexual intercourse:

1.SUNAN ABU DAWUD
Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said: Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)
http://sunnah.com...

This is not only a Muslim website but the site itself says the hadith is Sahih. That it is authentic.
Fatihah
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7/21/2016 7:56:54 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:16:23 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
How do you justify Muhammad having a relationship with a 9 year old? (Aisha)

(Continued from previous post)

MUSLIM RESPONSE:

The collection of Abu Dawud also has the same narrations, also saying that they cohabit, not sex.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter

So we can see that of all the authentic narrations, the majority refer to living together or consummate, AND ONLY ONE translates it as sex. This demonstrates once again that the context supports that it refers to living together and not sex. Secondly, although the Abu Dawud is authentic, it is still a weaker narration to that of Bukhari and Muslim, and neither of these sources say sex. So since the stronger sources do not refer to sex but cohabitation, then it logically shows that it refers to cohabitation and not sex.

Finally, the reason for the translation of "sexual intercourse" is because the Arabic in this particular hadith means "entered me", whereas the other narrations mean "enter into what"s upon him", or some other variation. So the translator saw fit that it should be translated as sex according to the text, and did not refer to the context. Yet as the context shows and the hadiths from the same source show, it does not refer to sex but to cohabitation. However, even the English expression of "entered me" does not mean that someone is literally entering inside a person. Notice the following sentence:

"I wanted to enter my brother"s race competition but I was not there to sign up. So my brother entered me."

As one can see, the words "enter me" can take on another meaning other than literally going inside someone, depending on context. Despite the words "entered me" the context shows that it refers to entering someone into a race. Similarly, the expression "entered me" in the Abu Dawud hadith that is translated as sexual intercourse should be translated as the Prophet entered her into the marriage contract.

We also know that Muhammad married Aisha, not of his own desires, but in accordance to a dream he received. So he was not following sexual desire, but following the Guidance of Allah:

Narrated `Aisha:
Allah's Messenger (A018;) said (to me), "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.' " (Bukhari Vol. 7 Book 62 Num. 15).

In conclusion, we can see from the context, the Arabic itself, and even in English itself, that the consummation of marriage at 9 does not mean to have sex at 9. It means that they entered into the marriage contract at 9 by living together and Muhammad did so not out of his own sexual desires, but in accordance to the Guidance of Allah. Thus refuting the charge of Pedophilia.

And Allah knows Best.
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,050
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7/21/2016 8:32:37 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 7:02:08 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 7/21/2016 6:16:23 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
How do you justify Muhammad having a relationship with a 9 year old? (Aisha)

-The age of consent among 7th century Arabs was puberty, and in hot climates, women tended to mature much quicker given both weather and low life expectancies. So puberty occured at a much younger age.

Really? That's fascinating
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,610
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7/22/2016 2:10:32 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 7:56:54 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/21/2016 6:16:23 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
How do you justify Muhammad having a relationship with a 9 year old? (Aisha)

(Continued from previous post)

MUSLIM RESPONSE:

The collection of Abu Dawud also has the same narrations, also saying that they cohabit, not sex.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter

So we can see that of all the authentic narrations, the majority refer to living together or consummate, AND ONLY ONE translates it as sex. This demonstrates once again that the context supports that it refers to living together and not sex. Secondly, although the Abu Dawud is authentic, it is still a weaker narration to that of Bukhari and Muslim, and neither of these sources say sex. So since the stronger sources do not refer to sex but cohabitation, then it logically shows that it refers to cohabitation and not sex.


Finally, the reason for the translation of "sexual intercourse" is because the Arabic in this particular hadith means "entered me", whereas the other narrations mean "enter into what"s upon him", or some other variation. So the translator saw fit that it should be translated as sex according to the text, and did not refer to the context. Yet as the context shows and the hadiths from the same source show, it does not refer to sex but to cohabitation. However, even the English expression of "entered me" does not mean that someone is literally entering inside a person. Notice the following sentence:

"I wanted to enter my brother"s race competition but I was not there to sign up. So my brother entered me."

As one can see, the words "enter me" can take on another meaning other than literally going inside someone, depending on context. Despite the words "entered me" the context shows that it refers to entering someone into a race. Similarly, the expression "entered me" in the Abu Dawud hadith that is translated as sexual intercourse should be translated as the Prophet entered her into the marriage contract.


We also know that Muhammad married Aisha, not of his own desires, but in accordance to a dream he received. So he was not following sexual desire, but following the Guidance of Allah:

Narrated `Aisha:
Allah's Messenger (A018;) said (to me), "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.' " (Bukhari Vol. 7 Book 62 Num. 15).

In conclusion, we can see from the context, the Arabic itself, and even in English itself, that the consummation of marriage at 9 does not mean to have sex at 9. It means that they entered into the marriage contract at 9 by living together and Muhammad did so not out of his own sexual desires, but in accordance to the Guidance of Allah. Thus refuting the charge of Pedophilia.

And Allah knows Best.

Your allah is a f*cking pig
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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7/22/2016 9:07:49 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:16:23 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
How do you justify Muhammad having a relationship with a 9 year old? (Aisha)

she was his wife.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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7/22/2016 12:23:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 6:16:23 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
How do you justify Muhammad having a relationship with a 9 year old? (Aisha)

We know very well the religious will justify all kinds of atrocities and immoral behavior to defend their faith, no matter what, hence you won't get an honest answer for that.

Child brides were common place back then. It was never about two people who loved each other and wanted to spend their lives together, it was about perverted middle aged. misogynist men having sex with young girls.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,675
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7/22/2016 7:00:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 7:02:08 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 7/21/2016 6:16:23 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
How do you justify Muhammad having a relationship with a 9 year old? (Aisha)

- Child marriages were common in that era, it's not a question of pedophilia, as most marriages of that nature were for pragmatic reasons (either in merging two prominent families, increasing collective land holdings or as a gesture of peace making).

-The age of consent among 7th century Arabs was puberty, and in hot climates, women tended to mature much quicker given both weather and low life expectancies. So puberty occured at a much younger age. Futher proof of this in French philosopher Montesquieu, whom in his treatise The Spirit of Laws (which used in the development of the American constitution) also states that women in hot climate, women were marriageable at ages 8,9 and 10 years old. And that was in reference to consummation itself, and not chaste marital relations. Consummation was a means of formalizing a marriage, which is why Aisha (RA) was married at 6 but not consummated until 9.

- Aisha (RA) herself was extremely happy about the marriage, both when she was married and long after Muhammad (pbuh) had died. Having narrated over 9,000 hadith and later becoming an 'Alim (scholar) during the reign of Ali (RA).

Fair enough, and thanks for writing a descent response instead of writing a long, off topic, and useless rant like Fatihah did.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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7/22/2016 7:26:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 7:00:44 PM, triangle.128k wrote:

Fair enough, and thanks for writing a descent response instead of writing a long, off topic, and useless rant like Fatihah did.

Response: You mean thanks for not making you look as stupid as Fatihah has done. Understandable.
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,675
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7/22/2016 7:32:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 7:26:05 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/22/2016 7:00:44 PM, triangle.128k wrote:

Fair enough, and thanks for writing a descent response instead of writing a long, off topic, and useless rant like Fatihah did.

Response: You mean thanks for not making you look as stupid as Fatihah has done. Understandable.

F*ck off you prick, go back to throwing gays off buildings and beating your 4th wife.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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7/22/2016 7:36:04 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 7:32:09 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 7/22/2016 7:26:05 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/22/2016 7:00:44 PM, triangle.128k wrote:

Fair enough, and thanks for writing a descent response instead of writing a long, off topic, and useless rant like Fatihah did.

Response: You mean thanks for not making you look as stupid as Fatihah has done. Understandable.

F*ck off you prick, go back to throwing gays off buildings and beating your 4th wife.

Response: I don't know that lifestyle. Where's your mother to help me out?
matt8800
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7/22/2016 9:12:21 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 7:02:08 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 7/21/2016 6:16:23 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
How do you justify Muhammad having a relationship with a 9 year old? (Aisha)

- Child marriages were common in that era, it's not a question of pedophilia, as most marriages of that nature were for pragmatic reasons (either in merging two prominent families, increasing collective land holdings or as a gesture of peace making).

Great argument for subjective morality!
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,610
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7/23/2016 3:45:39 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 12:57:47 PM, uncung wrote:
Your allah is a f*cking pig

you must be a pious christian.

No I'm not Christian, but the belief that some of you Muslims have in a god who would condone killing makes your god a piece of sh*t. I'm not talking about the real God, but the god of many f*cked up muslims
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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7/23/2016 12:42:50 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:45:39 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
At 7/22/2016 12:57:47 PM, uncung wrote:
Your allah is a f*cking pig

you must be a pious christian.

No I'm not Christian, but the belief that some of you Muslims have in a god who would condone killing makes your god a piece of sh*t. I'm not talking about the real God, but the god of many f*cked up muslims

what if the real God is like what Muslims attribute Him of?
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,610
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7/23/2016 9:45:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 12:42:50 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/23/2016 3:45:39 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
At 7/22/2016 12:57:47 PM, uncung wrote:
Your allah is a f*cking pig

you must be a pious christian.

No I'm not Christian, but the belief that some of you Muslims have in a god who would condone killing makes your god a piece of sh*t. I'm not talking about the real God, but the god of many f*cked up muslims

what if the real God is like what Muslims attribute Him of?

Then the universe is f*cked.