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Do We Need Religion?

Willows
Posts: 2,047
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7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/22/2016 2:51:26 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

There should be a distinction made as to what your friend meant by "religious needs", did he literally mean religious, or did he mean spiritual? it's easy to conflate the two but one is merely holding a religious belief, while the other a lifestyle...
Sure, I'd like to get rid of institutions too but first of all Christianity is/was not a teaching or an organization to control the masses if that's what you mean by "organised" religion, if you really believe that maybe you should actually read the Gospels and Epistles. It has become that at the hands of man alone, Christianity has had such a wide impact it's been used to be involved in all kinds of madness, not because the scriptures itself are mad, but because people are mad, read those Gospels!
People, organizations, religious sects ect. take advantage of the Bible and souls (knowingly or unknowingly) because people are generally uneducated and ignorant to the reality of the spirit, they don't know how to be involved or what to seek, they are constantly being led rather finding for themselves. This is all people problems, which we could never eliminate.

How about we make a distinction from "religion" and what Jesus teaches, what the Epistles reveal? because ultimately it's denominations and religious sects dividing themselves according to their own opinions and their agendas. So how about we say we can discard "religion" but keep spirituality? find out for me what your friend meant by "religious".

We need scripture (and I agree not religion),"spirituality" for spiritual understanding, the scriptures are a foundation, a source for learning, a guide for dummies, instructions for babies, everybody has to begin somewhere. Aren't you interested in the spiritual? life beyond the grave.... if it exists? don't you want to know where you are headed? what all this means? how it applies to you? why would you not?

When and if you ever start applying spiritual principles and lifestyle, you will soon realize that Christianity (what Jesus taught), and spirituality are not restrictive to the mind, it expands the mind not restricts it. Spiritual knowledge far exceeds the knowledge of the carnal world, not even comparable. I could understand and relate to religion being restrictive to the mind but don't ever think or assume spiritual understanding is restrictive to the mind ignoring the fact that you simply assert it doesn't exist, assuming it does...
What your friend probably meant was "we have spiritual needs" rather than "religious" needs. However Christianity is spirituality, a lifestyle not a label.
But in general I would agree we need less institution and more revelation, more relevance.

I didn't mean to ramble but I know how atheists lump all of the religious world and all it's aspects into one little imaginary box, so I just wanted to point out the distinction between religious belief, religious sects vs scripture and spirituality. We need one of those and not the other, or less of one and more of the other.
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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7/22/2016 3:24:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 2:51:26 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

There should be a distinction made as to what your friend meant by "religious needs", did he literally mean religious, or did he mean spiritual? it's easy to conflate the two but one is merely holding a religious belief, while the other a lifestyle...

Do describe a spiritual lifestyle.

Sure, I'd like to get rid of institutions too but first of all Christianity is/was not a teaching or an organization to control the masses

That must have been eons ago.

if that's what you mean by "organised" religion, if you really believe that maybe you should actually read the Gospels and Epistles. It has become that at the hands of man alone,

And isn't it interesting that God hasn't had a word to say on the matter since? Isn't it fascinating God hasn't acted to prevent such perversion?

Christianity has had such a wide impact it's been used to be involved in all kinds of madness, not because the scriptures itself are mad,

Yet Christians invoked them while conducting such madness.

but because people are mad, read those Gospels!

The Bible is ridden with madness from Genesis to Revelation.

People, organizations, religious sects ect. take advantage of the Bible and souls (knowingly or unknowingly) because people are generally uneducated and ignorant to the reality of the spirit, they don't know how to be involved or what to seek, they are constantly being led rather finding for themselves.

Why doesn't God step in to lead the ignorant then? If He does routinely step in, He is failing spectacularly by your own admission. And if He is failing spectacularly, how would you square that with the notion He is an all-powerful omniscient God?

This is all people problems, which we could never eliminate.

An all-powerful God certainly could.


How about we make a distinction from "religion" and what Jesus teaches,

That's na"ve beyond belief.
Practically all denominations claim to preach the teachings of Jesus. And practically all of them cite the Bible in their defence.

what the Epistles reveal?

You mean the epistles by Paul - not Christ- allegedly written years after Christ is said to have set foot on Earth ?

because ultimately it's denominations and religious sects dividing themselves according to their own opinions and their agendas.

Christianity is intrinsically sectarian and factious.
The mere existence of thousands and thousands of denominations suggests that.

So how about we say we can discard "religion" but keep spirituality?

How about we're honest and acknowledge that it's an extremely hard, even futile, distinction to establish?

We need scripture (and I agree not religion),

Thanks for your opinion.

the scriptures are a foundation, a source for learning, a guide for dummies,

How charitable of you.

instructions for babies,

That's not patronizing at all.
Your spiritual journey sure has enlightened you.
I can see that clearly now.

I didn't mean to ramble but I know how atheists lump all of the religious world and all it's aspects into one little imaginary box,

Yes, all atheists lump all religions together...
Do you have insurance against Irony?

so I just wanted to point out the distinction between religious belief, religious sects vs scripture and spirituality.

I read.
Read again.
Not much by way of that.

We need one of those and not the other, or less of one and more of the other.

Thanks for your opinion.
distraff
Posts: 1,004
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7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.
David_Debates
Posts: 244
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7/22/2016 6:23:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

What about Rome? That's kind of the center of the largest religious group in the world...
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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7/22/2016 7:24:21 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

I wonder what religious needs he was referring to. Speaking in tongues? Talking to an imaginary friend? Rituals?

I have heard prominent atheist thinkers say we might have 'spiritual' needs although it is tricky to define in a non-theist way. I think they are more referring to appreciating and experiencing non-tangible concepts such as love, appreciation for beauty/arts, awe of the universe, etc.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,731
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7/22/2016 8:09:41 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Response: Since the atheist position is that religion has been made up, and there is no masses of atheists prior to religion or in history ever that can claim any advancement is society without religious people, I think atheists should be thankful of religion instead of going backwards.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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7/22/2016 8:55:12 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 2:51:26 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

There should be a distinction made as to what your friend meant by "religious needs", did he literally mean religious, or did he mean spiritual? it's easy to conflate the two but one is merely holding a religious belief, while the other a lifestyle...
Sure, I'd like to get rid of institutions too but first of all Christianity is/was not a teaching or an organization to control the masses if that's what you mean by "organised" religion, if you really believe that maybe you should actually read the Gospels and Epistles. It has become that at the hands of man alone, Christianity has had such a wide impact it's been used to be involved in all kinds of madness, not because the scriptures itself are mad, but because people are mad, read those Gospels!
People, organizations, religious sects ect. take advantage of the Bible and souls (knowingly or unknowingly) because people are generally uneducated and ignorant to the reality of the spirit, they don't know how to be involved or what to seek, they are constantly being led rather finding for themselves. This is all people problems, which we could never eliminate.

How about we make a distinction from "religion" and what Jesus teaches, what the Epistles reveal? because ultimately it's denominations and religious sects dividing themselves according to their own opinions and their agendas. So how about we say we can discard "religion" but keep spirituality? find out for me what your friend meant by "religious".

We need scripture (and I agree not religion),"spirituality" for spiritual understanding, the scriptures are a foundation, a source for learning, a guide for dummies, instructions for babies, everybody has to begin somewhere. Aren't you interested in the spiritual? life beyond the grave.... if it exists? don't you want to know where you are headed? what all this means? how it applies to you? why would you not?

When and if you ever start applying spiritual principles and lifestyle, you will soon realize that Christianity (what Jesus taught), and spirituality are not restrictive to the mind, it expands the mind not restricts it. Spiritual knowledge far exceeds the knowledge of the carnal world, not even comparable. I could understand and relate to religion being restrictive to the mind but don't ever think or assume spiritual understanding is restrictive to the mind ignoring the fact that you simply assert it doesn't exist, assuming it does...
What your friend probably meant was "we have spiritual needs" rather than "religious" needs. However Christianity is spirituality, a lifestyle not a label.
But in general I would agree we need less institution and more revelation, more relevance.

I didn't mean to ramble but I know how atheists lump all of the religious world and all it's aspects into one little imaginary box, so I just wanted to point out the distinction between religious belief, religious sects vs scripture and spirituality. We need one of those and not the other, or less of one and more of the other.

Jesus was not an intellectual. He was mostly incoherent. jesus only spoke in parables which no one could understand. Even his disciples often complained he answered their questions with another parable. Very odd that God would send someone who could not articulate the reason he was sent. And if it is true Jesus only spoke what God wanted him to say. We have to conclude God is just as incoherent as Jesus.

John 12:49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

Mark 4:34 He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

Jesus had no employable skills, there is no record if he was even a good carpenter. At 30 he remained unmarried. But he knew and quoted scriptures. Unfortunately he could do nothing on his own by his own admission. Jesus would have lived longer if he had less religion and more employable and social skills

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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7/22/2016 9:07:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 8:09:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Response: Since the atheist position is that religion has been made up, and there is no masses of atheists prior to religion or in history ever that can claim any advancement is society without religious people, I think atheists should be thankful of religion instead of going backwards.

Try English.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/22/2016 9:41:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
Perhaps meaning that he has needs for cultural identity, yet cannot conceive an irreligious culture, despite there being many cultures with low religiosity.

And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?
Critical thought has improved significantly in the last several centuries, and fewer people now believe in a world full supernatural interventions than once did.

Yet people raised to believe without evidence that amazing rewards await people subsidising the right theocracies, are still afraid to admit their efforts have been wasted on superstition and deceit -- even when their own religion's history is full of debunked claims supported by dishonest clergy.

So they'd rather pass the error on -- teach children to squander their lives, money and critical thought than be the last generation to have done so.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/22/2016 9:47:56 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Nope. Atheism breeds non accountable totalitarian minds like Joseph Stalin. Atheist leadership has been tried many times. It always leads to some prick with ears who decides he himself is God and the civilized world is dropped to its knees or forced to fight to evenexist. Darwinism equals survival of the fittest and each individual jackass thinks he is the fittest.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
distraff
Posts: 1,004
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7/22/2016 10:11:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 6:23:43 PM, David_Debates wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

What about Rome? That's kind of the center of the largest religious group in the world...

I think you are talking about the Vatican City. Italy is highly religious with 83% who are Christian and 12% who are non-affiliated.
http://www.pewforum.org...

However many Europeans tend to identify with a religion even when they don't have any serious religious beliefs or believe in God. In Italy 26% say religion lacks importance in their lives even though only 12% are non-religious. 74% believe in God, 20% believe in a universal spirit and 6% don't believe in a God.
https://en.wikipedia.org...

However other European countries are not quite so religious like France for example having 63% Christian and 28% non-religious.73% of French say that religion lacks importance in their lives, and only 27% believe in a God, 27% believe in a universal spirit and 40% don't believe in God. 68% of Germans are Christian and 23% are non-religious but 57% say religion is not important in their lives and only 44% believe in God with 25% believing in a universal spirit and 27% not believing in God.

Religion is also weak in advancing Asian counties with 46% of South Koreans being non-religious, 52% of Chinese are non-religious, and 57% of Japanese are non-religious.

So religion tends to be weaker in peaceful, wealthy, and advanced places so I don't see how it is vital. If anything once a society becomes rich, educated and successful the need for religion and myths to explain things and give purpose in hard times declines.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/22/2016 10:51:40 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

my question is which one? its well established everyone is religious.
KendoRe2
Posts: 126
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7/22/2016 10:54:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

France is Europe. They let Islam in. Now they get terror attacks
David_Debates
Posts: 244
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7/22/2016 10:59:45 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 10:11:42 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 6:23:43 PM, David_Debates wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

What about Rome? That's kind of the center of the largest religious group in the world...

I think you are talking about the Vatican City. Italy is highly religious with 83% who are Christian and 12% who are non-affiliated.
http://www.pewforum.org...

Yes, exactly.

However many Europeans tend to identify with a religion even when they don't have any serious religious beliefs or believe in God.

But the majority does. Right?

In Italy 26% say religion lacks importance in their lives even though only 12% are non-religious. 74% believe in God, 20% believe in a universal spirit and 6% don't believe in a God.
https://en.wikipedia.org...

However other European countries are not quite so religious like France for example having 63% Christian and 28% non-religious.73% of French say that religion lacks importance in their lives, and only 27% believe in a God, 27% believe in a universal spirit and 40% don't believe in God.

These are contradictory statistics. What your saying is France has is 63% Christian, but only 27% believe in a God. Christians, by definition, believe in a God. Get statistics other than from Wikipedia.

68% of Germans are Christian and 23% are non-religious but 57% say religion is not important in their lives and only 44% believe in God with 25% believing in a universal spirit and 27% not believing in God.

Same problem as above. Get statistics that don't contradict each other.

Religion is also weak in advancing Asian counties with 46% of South Koreans being non-religious, 52% of Chinese are non-religious, and 57% of Japanese are non-religious.

Ever thought that their government does not support those whom are avidly religious?
Especially a communistic dictatorship?

So religion tends to be weaker in peaceful, wealthy, and advanced places so I don't see how it is vital. If anything once a society becomes rich, educated and successful the need for religion and myths to explain things and give purpose in hard times declines.

Actually, the statistics you provided state that most European countries are highly religious, but simply give freedom of religion. Those are two completely separate things.

Also, another explanation for the reason of why this economic spike is because of freedom of markets. Ask me about it if you want.
distraff
Posts: 1,004
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7/22/2016 11:45:41 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 10:59:45 PM, David_Debates wrote:
At 7/22/2016 10:11:42 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 6:23:43 PM, David_Debates wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

What about Rome? That's kind of the center of the largest religious group in the world...

I think you are talking about the Vatican City. Italy is highly religious with 83% who are Christian and 12% who are non-affiliated.
http://www.pewforum.org...

Yes, exactly.

However many Europeans tend to identify with a religion even when they don't have any serious religious beliefs or believe in God.

But the majority does. Right?

Yes, but much of this majority is not really religiously active or really have much of a belief at all. Also, this majority is much lower than in other parts of the world like Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, or India.

In Italy 26% say religion lacks importance in their lives even though only 12% are non-religious. 74% believe in God, 20% believe in a universal spirit and 6% don't believe in a God.
https://en.wikipedia.org...

However other European countries are not quite so religious like France for example having 63% Christian and 28% non-religious.73% of French say that religion lacks importance in their lives, and only 27% believe in a God, 27% believe in a universal spirit and 40% don't believe in God.

These are contradictory statistics. What your saying is France has is 63% Christian, but only 27% believe in a God. Christians, by definition, believe in a God.

That is the American approach to religion. I was born in Denmark which is 80% Lutheran and 84% consider themselves to be Christian which is significantly higher than in the US which is only 78%.

Yet anyone who really knows Denmark knows that it is far less religious than the US. For many Danes and Europeans alike religion is more of a cultural thing and when you actually ask them about their opinion you get a completely different picture. 80% say that religion is not important in their lives. Only 28% believe in God with 47% who believe in some general universal spirit and 24% who don't believe in God.

A 2004 survey found that 48% of Danes don't believe in a God. The fact that many Europeans are not religious even though they call themselves religious is very well documented.
http://www.humanreligions.info...

Get statistics other than from Wikipedia.

No, that statistic is from the Eurometer Barometer Survey by the European Commision.

Religion is also weak in advancing Asian counties with 46% of South Koreans being non-religious, 52% of Chinese are non-religious, and 57% of Japanese are non-religious.

Ever thought that their government does not support those whom are avidly religious?
Especially a communistic dictatorship?

That only explains China but not the rest of Eastern Asia and the fact is that Eastern Asia is far less religious than the rest of the world. The Chinese government does officially support atheism but also has strong ties to Buddhism as well.

So religion tends to be weaker in peaceful, wealthy, and advanced places so I don't see how it is vital. If anything once a society becomes rich, educated and successful the need for religion and myths to explain things and give purpose in hard times declines.

Actually, the statistics you provided state that most European countries are highly religious, but simply give freedom of religion. Those are two completely separate things.

Also, another explanation for the reason of why this economic spike is because of freedom of markets. Ask me about it if you want.

You would have to present evidence for your theory. We have a strong correlation between wealth and education across countries, US states, US cities, and demographic groups.
distraff
Posts: 1,004
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7/22/2016 11:46:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 10:54:18 PM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

France is Europe. They let Islam in. Now they get terror attacks

They got terror attacks because they attacked ISIS. When you attack a terror organization you will get terror attacks.
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
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7/23/2016 12:05:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 10:54:18 PM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

France is Europe.

France is in Europe, yes.

They let Islam in.

They took in Muslim refugees. What would Jesus have done?

Now they get terror attacks

Because they are fighting terrorists. So?

The underlying message in your post is, Islam (a religion) is bad and we don't want it, but Christianity (my religion) is good and we need it. You reek of hypocrisy.
KendoRe2
Posts: 126
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7/23/2016 3:26:08 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 12:05:30 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/22/2016 10:54:18 PM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

France is Europe.

France is in Europe, yes.

They let Islam in.

They took in Muslim refugees. What would Jesus have done?

Now they get terror attacks

Because they are fighting terrorists. So?

The underlying message in your post is, Islam (a religion) is bad and we don't want it, but Christianity (my religion) is good and we need it. You reek of hypocrisy.

I don't See a Christian themed group out there killing people and taking responsibility for it, either.
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
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7/23/2016 7:23:13 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:26:08 AM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/23/2016 12:05:30 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/22/2016 10:54:18 PM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

France is Europe.

France is in Europe, yes.

They let Islam in.

They took in Muslim refugees. What would Jesus have done?

Now they get terror attacks

Because they are fighting terrorists. So?

The underlying message in your post is, Islam (a religion) is bad and we don't want it, but Christianity (my religion) is good and we need it. You reek of hypocrisy.

I don't See a Christian themed group out there killing people and taking responsibility for it, either.

http://www.armyofgod.com...

No, we don't need religion and the fanaticism it engenders in volatile elements of the community, be that Islam or Christianity.
bulproof
Posts: 25,210
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7/23/2016 7:33:36 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 9:47:56 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Nope. Atheism breeds non accountable totalitarian minds like Joseph Stalin. Atheist leadership has been tried many times. It always leads to some prick with ears who decides he himself is God and the civilized world is dropped to its knees or forced to fight to evenexist. Darwinism equals survival of the fittest and each individual jackass thinks he is the fittest.
I can think of three Australian Prime Ministers who were atheists, so you must be right or you are as ignorantly stupid as you present.
I vote for the latter.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
David_Debates
Posts: 244
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7/23/2016 7:59:14 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 11:45:41 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 10:59:45 PM, David_Debates wrote:
At 7/22/2016 10:11:42 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 6:23:43 PM, David_Debates wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

What about Rome? That's kind of the center of the largest religious group in the world...

I think you are talking about the Vatican City. Italy is highly religious with 83% who are Christian and 12% who are non-affiliated.
http://www.pewforum.org...

Yes, exactly.

However many Europeans tend to identify with a religion even when they don't have any serious religious beliefs or believe in God.

But the majority does. Right?

Yes, but much of this majority is not really religiously active or really have much of a belief at all. Also, this majority is much lower than in other parts of the world like Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, or India.

Religiously active as in what? Going to a place of worship or advocating for their religion in their governmental system? Why is Latin America generally more religiously active than the countries you mentioned, i.e. in what way are the active?


In Italy 26% say religion lacks importance in their lives even though only 12% are non-religious. 74% believe in God, 20% believe in a universal spirit and 6% don't believe in a God.
https://en.wikipedia.org...

However other European countries are not quite so religious like France for example having 63% Christian and 28% non-religious.73% of French say that religion lacks importance in their lives, and only 27% believe in a God, 27% believe in a universal spirit and 40% don't believe in God.

These are contradictory statistics. What your saying is France has is 63% Christian, but only 27% believe in a God. Christians, by definition, believe in a God.

That is the American approach to religion. I was born in Denmark which is 80% Lutheran and 84% consider themselves to be Christian which is significantly higher than in the US which is only 78%.

If 84% of the people in Denmark are Christian, that means that at least 84% of them believe in a God.

Yet anyone who really knows Denmark knows that it is far less religious than the US. For many Danes and Europeans alike religion is more of a cultural thing and when you actually ask them about their opinion you get a completely different picture. 80% say that religion is not important in their lives. Only 28% believe in God with 47% who believe in some general universal spirit and 24% who don't believe in God.

Then what you said above is false. If only 28% of Danes believe in God, than there can only be up to 28% of Danes that are Christian. There can't be 84% of people in Denmark that are Christian. You're statistics contradict themselves.


A 2004 survey found that 48% of Danes don't believe in a God. The fact that many Europeans are not religious even though they call themselves religious is very well documented.
http://www.humanreligions.info...

Get statistics other than from Wikipedia.

No, that statistic is from the Eurometer Barometer Survey by the European Commision.

Then say so, don't link Wiki as your source.

Religion is also weak in advancing Asian counties with 46% of South Koreans being non-religious, 52% of Chinese are non-religious, and 57% of Japanese are non-religious.

Ever thought that their government does not support those whom are avidly religious?
Especially a communistic dictatorship?

That only explains China but not the rest of Eastern Asia and the fact is that Eastern Asia is far less religious than the rest of the world. The Chinese government does officially support atheism but also has strong ties to Buddhism as well.

Communism does not work when its citizens religion. Is it your position that Communism has some sort of religious tie, foundation?

So religion tends to be weaker in peaceful, wealthy, and advanced places so I don't see how it is vital. If anything once a society becomes rich, educated and successful the need for religion and myths to explain things and give purpose in hard times declines.

Actually, the statistics you provided state that most European countries are highly religious, but simply give freedom of religion. Those are two completely separate things.

Also, another explanation for the reason of why this economic spike is because of freedom of markets. Ask me about my theory if you want.

You would have to present evidence for your theory. We have a strong correlation between wealth and education across countries, US states, US cities, and demographic groups.

There is also a strong correlation between wealth and economic freedom across countries, US states, US cities, and demographic groups.
https://docs.google.com...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/23/2016 9:29:43 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 7:33:36 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/22/2016 9:47:56 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Atheist leadership has been tried many times. It always leads to [someone] who decides he himself is God
I can think of three Australian Prime Ministers who were atheists
(In reverse order of term, Julia Gillard [https://en.wikipedia.org...] is and Gough Whitlam [https://en.wikipedia.org...] was a self-avowed atheist; I think Bob Hawke [https://en.wikipedia.org...] is agnostic. Any others you know of, Bul?)
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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7/23/2016 9:38:35 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 7:59:14 AM, David_Debates wrote:
At 7/22/2016 11:45:41 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 10:59:45 PM, David_Debates wrote:
At 7/22/2016 10:11:42 PM, distraff wrote:
So religion tends to be weaker in peaceful, wealthy, and advanced places so I don't see how it is vital. If anything once a society becomes rich, educated and successful the need for religion and myths to explain things and give purpose in hard times declines.

Actually, the statistics you provided state that most European countries are highly religious, but simply give freedom of religion. Those are two completely separate things.

Also, another explanation for the reason of why this economic spike is because of freedom of markets. Ask me about my theory if you want.

You would have to present evidence for your theory. We have a strong correlation between wealth and education across countries, US states, US cities, and demographic groups.

There is also a strong correlation between wealth and economic freedom across countries, US states, US cities, and demographic groups.
https://docs.google.com...

I think that it's much more likely that the development of a prosperous middle class leads to freedom and modernity, not the other way around. That's why attempts to create a prosperous middle class through despotic means are very often successful (Singapore being the most relevant example), while attempts to give a people freedom often fail if the level of economic development is low.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
uncung
Posts: 3,438
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7/23/2016 12:25:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

yes we need it to gain salvation and paradise in hereafter.
Willows
Posts: 2,047
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7/23/2016 12:36:13 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 3:26:08 AM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/23/2016 12:05:30 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/22/2016 10:54:18 PM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:28:36 PM, distraff wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

Europe is highly non-religious however they have high levels of happiness and life satisfaction according to surveys. Europe is also very peaceful, low crime, wealthy, technologically advanced, and highly educated.

France is Europe.

France is in Europe, yes.

They let Islam in.

They took in Muslim refugees. What would Jesus have done?

Now they get terror attacks

Because they are fighting terrorists. So?

The underlying message in your post is, Islam (a religion) is bad and we don't want it, but Christianity (my religion) is good and we need it. You reek of hypocrisy.

I don't See a Christian themed group out there killing people and taking responsibility for it, either.

It seems to come in waves, the Islamists are having their struggles at the moment spilling onto the world stage. I recall living in London at the height of the IRA bombing campaign. Just as Muslim factions are tearing each other apart, so were the Christian factions back then.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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7/23/2016 12:41:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 12:25:15 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

yes we need it to gain salvation and paradise in hereafter.

If you got a email that looked a little suspicious,
Would you open it up and download attachments?
PureX
Posts: 1,523
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7/23/2016 12:57:54 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I don't think "we" get to decide who needs religion, or why. There is enormous arrogance and danger in the idea that any individuals, groups, or governments, should be deciding what people should or should not believe about the nature and purpose of their own existence. Atheists claim religion is dangerous for humanity because it's irrational, yet they completely ignore the danger that they, themselves, pose, when they propose that religions could or should be eradicated.

Religion is a huge subject that includes a wide range of beliefs, practices, and effects on humanity. ANYONE who views it in so narrow a way as to propose that religion is all bad or all good is a 'flaming ignoramus', and lacks the intellectual sophistication to be making any such judgments.

Religions, like anything important to humanity, has it's positive effects, and it's negative effects, and most of those are not intrinsic to the practice of religion, itself, but to the natural inclinations of humankind. Such that even if it were possible to eradicate religion (which it's not), doing so would not eradicate the ideas, behaviors, and the negative effects that the anti-religionists are bemoaning. Because the problems are not innate to the religions, they are inmate to the people that create and practice them.

And wanting to control other people's thoughts and behaviors is at the heart of the problem. So how is promoting doing exactly that, by "eradicating religion", doing anything but engaging in the very behavior that you propose to eradicate?
Willows
Posts: 2,047
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7/23/2016 1:20:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 12:57:54 PM, PureX wrote:
I don't think "we" get to decide who needs religion, or why. There is enormous arrogance and danger in the idea that any individuals, groups, or governments, should be deciding what people should or should not believe about the nature and purpose of their own existence. Atheists claim religion is dangerous for humanity because it's irrational, yet they completely ignore the danger that they, themselves, pose, when they propose that religions could or should be eradicated.

Religion is a huge subject that includes a wide range of beliefs, practices, and effects on humanity. ANYONE who views it in so narrow a way as to propose that religion is all bad or all good is a 'flaming ignoramus', and lacks the intellectual sophistication to be making any such judgments.

Religions, like anything important to humanity, has it's positive effects, and it's negative effects, and most of those are not intrinsic to the practice of religion, itself, but to the natural inclinations of humankind. Such that even if it were possible to eradicate religion (which it's not), doing so would not eradicate the ideas, behaviors, and the negative effects that the anti-religionists are bemoaning. Because the problems are not innate to the religions, they are inmate to the people that create and practice them.

And wanting to control other people's thoughts and behaviors is at the heart of the problem. So how is promoting doing exactly that, by "eradicating religion", doing anything but engaging in the very behavior that you propose to eradicate?

I agree with you, there is good and bad in religion. I think what many atheists are wary about is that religion has historically had a poor track record in respecting human rights. Religion may have started out in earnest for the betterment of mankind and I'm sure that many of our values we hold now have stemmed from religion. My feeling is that in western civilised society religion is gradually dying. There is a collective morality in our society which does improve and adapt to changes in our society yet I find religion is still way behind the "Zeitgeist" of time.
uncung
Posts: 3,438
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7/23/2016 1:46:23 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 12:41:15 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 7/23/2016 12:25:15 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/22/2016 1:11:19 PM, Willows wrote:
A friend of mine stated that one reason for his being religious is that "we have religious needs".
But do we need to fill a void of not knowing with something that we know even less about?
And given that organised religion in civilised societies has long lost it's purpose of controlling the masses, isn't time we move forward and get rid of such mind-restricting institutions?

yes we need it to gain salvation and paradise in hereafter.

If you got a email that looked a little suspicious,
Would you open it up and download attachments?

i didn't get the email.