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Why Atheist Moral equality doesn't matter

brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/23/2016 1:52:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Con:
"I offer that any moral act done in the name of the Christian god is equally possible with a Secular worldview."

In Atheism there is no objective "morality" because Atheism is not an ideology, a belief, nor a worldview, but simply the lack of belief that God(s) exist. If Atheism is correct, there is no objective "morality". Under the Atheist construct I can legitimately do things simply because:

1)They are biolgoically driven

2)Of the "Survival of the fittest"

3)I felt like it, and morality is simply a semantical word of religious "types"

Seeing Atheism can provide us with no objective morality, I must use the version actually available to us. That would be religious morality, and in this case, as per Con's opening dialogue, Christian morality.

Con is making a claim of "equal or greater morality" in Atheism. By Christian morality, this in and of itself is grievously immoral.

Christians are actually purposefully claiming the "low ground". This is where their "righteousness" comes from, not of themselves(self righteousness), but of Christ(Christ's righteousness).

Con has assumed(wrongly) that Christianity assumes and needs a physical ethics "highground" of "works" on Atheists. This is a false assessment. Con is trapped in Secular Pharisaism.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

--

Christians do not claim a "highground" on Atheists on ethics, nor should they. This is actually the "moral" or "righteous" act according to Christianity, to not claim your own "goodness". To point to one's own "righteousness" is indeed the greater sin in and of itself.

Luke 16:15
And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

Luke 18:9
"And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous."

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Proverbs 20:9
Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin"?

Jeremiah 2:35
Behold, I will enter into judgment with you because you say, 'I have not sinned'.

Proverbs 30:12
There is a kind who is pure in his own eyes, Yet is not washed from his filthiness.

--

TRUE "MORALITY"-

Luke 18:9
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: robbers, evildoers, adulterers; or even like this tax collector.

I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

The tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

--

Under Christian morality, what a person does by seeking out and pointing out their own "greatness" is become a self righteous hypocrite, and not moral at all.

Luke 5:32:
"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners."

Mark 2:17
"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

John 9:41
"Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

The Pharisee priests began pointing out their "goodness

Matthew 21:31
"Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

--

Con:
"many reprehensible and immoral things have been and are done in the name of the Christian God."

Atheists have killed more people in the last century than all religions combined. Killing people in the name of nothing seems to be the negative variable in this equation.

It is obvious that Atheism cannot be true; for if it were, it would produce a more humane world, since it values only this life and is not swayed by the foolish beliefs of primitive superstitions and religions. However, the opposite proves to be true. Rather than providing the utopia of idealism, it has produced a body count second to none. With recent documents uncovered for the Maoist and Stalinist regimes, it now seems the high end of estimates of 250 million dead (between 1900-1987) are closer to the mark. The Stalinist Purges produced 61 million dead and Mao"s Cultural Revolution produced 70 million casualties.

https://www.scholarscorner.com...

--

Con:
"The Bible is fraught with immoral teachings, as is the Christian faith."

Citation needed.

--

bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Self-Righteousness,-Nature-Of
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,239
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7/23/2016 2:02:16 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 1:52:22 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Con:
"I offer that any moral act done in the name of the Christian god is equally possible with a Secular worldview."

In Atheism there is no objective "morality" because Atheism is not an ideology, a belief, nor a worldview, but simply the lack of belief that God(s) exist. If Atheism is correct, there is no objective "morality". Under the Atheist construct I can legitimately do things simply because:

1)They are biolgoically driven

2)Of the "Survival of the fittest"

3)I felt like it, and morality is simply a semantical word of religious "types"

Seeing Atheism can provide us with no objective morality, I must use the version actually available to us. That would be religious morality, and in this case, as per Con's opening dialogue, Christian morality.

Con is making a claim of "equal or greater morality" in Atheism. By Christian morality, this in and of itself is grievously immoral.

Christians are actually purposefully claiming the "low ground". This is where their "righteousness" comes from, not of themselves(self righteousness), but of Christ(Christ's righteousness).

Con has assumed(wrongly) that Christianity assumes and needs a physical ethics "highground" of "works" on Atheists. This is a false assessment. Con is trapped in Secular Pharisaism.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

--

Christians do not claim a "highground" on Atheists on ethics, nor should they. This is actually the "moral" or "righteous" act according to Christianity, to not claim your own "goodness". To point to one's own "righteousness" is indeed the greater sin in and of itself.

And yet here you are, slandering atheists. Go figure.

Luke 16:15
And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

Luke 18:9
"And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous."

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Proverbs 20:9
Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin"?

Jeremiah 2:35
Behold, I will enter into judgment with you because you say, 'I have not sinned'.

Proverbs 30:12
There is a kind who is pure in his own eyes, Yet is not washed from his filthiness.

--

TRUE "MORALITY"-

Luke 18:9
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: robbers, evildoers, adulterers; or even like this tax collector.

I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

The tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

--

Under Christian morality, what a person does by seeking out and pointing out their own "greatness" is become a self righteous hypocrite, and not moral at all.

Luke 5:32:
"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners."

Mark 2:17
"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

John 9:41
"Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

The Pharisee priests began pointing out their "goodness

Matthew 21:31
"Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

--

Con:
"many reprehensible and immoral things have been and are done in the name of the Christian God."

Atheists have killed more people in the last century than all religions combined. Killing people in the name of nothing seems to be the negative variable in this equation.

It is obvious that Atheism cannot be true; for if it were, it would produce a more humane world, since it values only this life and is not swayed by the foolish beliefs of primitive superstitions and religions. However, the opposite proves to be true. Rather than providing the utopia of idealism, it has produced a body count second to none. With recent documents uncovered for the Maoist and Stalinist regimes, it now seems the high end of estimates of 250 million dead (between 1900-1987) are closer to the mark. The Stalinist Purges produced 61 million dead and Mao"s Cultural Revolution produced 70 million casualties.

https://www.scholarscorner.com...

--

Con:
"The Bible is fraught with immoral teachings, as is the Christian faith."

Citation needed.

--

bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Self-Righteousness,-Nature-Of

The Bible is the claim of objective morality. Its morals from said deity are contradictory, and apologized/rationalized by His followers.

No, I will not debate you on the matter: I literally get nothing out of it unless scores of people vote for me, which due to my relative obscurity on this site simply won't happen.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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7/23/2016 2:12:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 1:52:22 PM, brontoraptor wrote:

atheism doesn't have any position on any moral claim.

atheism is a single position on a single claim

do you believe a god is real? (yes = theist, no atheist)
PureX
Posts: 1,530
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7/23/2016 2:20:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 1:52:22 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Con:
"I offer that any moral act done in the name of the Christian god is equally possible with a Secular worldview."

In Atheism there is no objective "morality" because Atheism is not an ideology, a belief, nor a worldview, but simply the lack of belief that God(s) exist. If Atheism is correct, there is no objective "morality". Under the Atheist construct I can legitimately do things simply because:

You are arguing with your own 'straw man'. The proposition said "secular" (meaning secular humanism), not "atheism". But you're completely ignoring the difference so that you can beat up on your 'straw man' atheist. Which is, itself, a gross mischaracterization of both atheism AND secular humanism.

Your bias is blinding you to your own dishonest thinking.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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7/23/2016 4:01:21 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 1:52:22 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Con:
"I offer that any moral act done in the name of the Christian god is equally possible with a Secular worldview."

In Atheism there is no objective "morality" because Atheism is not an ideology, a belief, nor a worldview, but simply the lack of belief that God(s) exist. If Atheism is correct, there is no objective "morality". Under the Atheist construct I can legitimately do things simply because:

1)They are biolgoically driven

2)Of the "Survival of the fittest"

3)I felt like it, and morality is simply a semantical word of religious "types"

Seeing Atheism can provide us with no objective morality, I must use the version actually available to us. That would be religious morality, and in this case, as per Con's opening dialogue, Christian morality.

Con is making a claim of "equal or greater morality" in Atheism. By Christian morality, this in and of itself is grievously immoral.

Christians are actually purposefully claiming the "low ground". This is where their "righteousness" comes from, not of themselves(self righteousness), but of Christ(Christ's righteousness).

Con has assumed(wrongly) that Christianity assumes and needs a physical ethics "highground" of "works" on Atheists. This is a false assessment. Con is trapped in Secular Pharisaism.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

--

Christians do not claim a "highground" on Atheists on ethics, nor should they. This is actually the "moral" or "righteous" act according to Christianity, to not claim your own "goodness". To point to one's own "righteousness" is indeed the greater sin in and of itself.

Luke 16:15
And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

Luke 18:9
"And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous."

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Proverbs 20:9
Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin"?

Jeremiah 2:35
Behold, I will enter into judgment with you because you say, 'I have not sinned'.

Proverbs 30:12
There is a kind who is pure in his own eyes, Yet is not washed from his filthiness.

--

TRUE "MORALITY"-

Luke 18:9
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: robbers, evildoers, adulterers; or even like this tax collector.

I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

The tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

--

Under Christian morality, what a person does by seeking out and pointing out their own "greatness" is become a self righteous hypocrite, and not moral at all.

Luke 5:32:
"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners."

Mark 2:17
"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

John 9:41
"Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

The Pharisee priests began pointing out their "goodness

Matthew 21:31
"Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

--

Con:
"many reprehensible and immoral things have been and are done in the name of the Christian God."

Atheists have killed more people in the last century than all religions combined. Killing people in the name of nothing seems to be the negative variable in this equation.

It is obvious that Atheism cannot be true; for if it were, it would produce a more humane world, since it values only this life and is not swayed by the foolish beliefs of primitive superstitions and religions. However, the opposite proves to be true. Rather than providing the utopia of idealism, it has produced a body count second to none. With recent documents uncovered for the Maoist and Stalinist regimes, it now seems the high end of estimates of 250 million dead (between 1900-1987) are closer to the mark. The Stalinist Purges produced 61 million dead and Mao"s Cultural Revolution produced 70 million casualties.

https://www.scholarscorner.com...

--

Con:
"The Bible is fraught with immoral teachings, as is the Christian faith."

Citation needed.

--

bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Self-Righteousness,-Nature-Of

Thank you, Bronto, for providing yet more ample evidence that it is a complete waste of time debating you.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
bulproof
Posts: 25,297
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7/23/2016 4:04:19 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 2:20:06 PM, PureX wrote:
At 7/23/2016 1:52:22 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Con:
"I offer that any moral act done in the name of the Christian god is equally possible with a Secular worldview."

In Atheism there is no objective "morality" because Atheism is not an ideology, a belief, nor a worldview, but simply the lack of belief that God(s) exist. If Atheism is correct, there is no objective "morality". Under the Atheist construct I can legitimately do things simply because:

You are arguing with your own 'straw man'. The proposition said "secular" (meaning secular humanism), not "atheism". But you're completely ignoring the difference so that you can beat up on your 'straw man' atheist. Which is, itself, a gross mischaracterization of both atheism AND secular humanism.

Your bias is blinding you to your own dishonest thinking.
I don't think so, he's well aware of his dishonesty.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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7/23/2016 4:39:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Instead of religious morality could you just call it bible morality.
If not , good luck trying to prove God has anything to do with the bible.
Your back to square 1.

Now try to prove that a Atheist can't read a bible .
If your a christian , then 30 years in you become a Athiest ,
Do you then become a Atheist with morals ?
Or are they just lost and left behind.
bulproof
Posts: 25,297
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7/24/2016 7:30:42 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 1:52:22 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Seeing Atheism can provide us with no objective morality,

Seeing theism can provide us with no objective morality,
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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7/25/2016 2:17:48 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 7:30:42 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/23/2016 1:52:22 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Seeing Atheism can provide us with no objective morality,

Seeing theism can provide us with no objective morality,

Morality is meaningless because no one has it. A lie is a lie even if only a part lie. Immorality is still immoral even if only partly immoral.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
bulproof
Posts: 25,297
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7/26/2016 9:19:06 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:17:48 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 7/24/2016 7:30:42 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/23/2016 1:52:22 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Seeing Atheism can provide us with no objective morality,

Seeing theism can provide us with no objective morality,

Morality is meaningless because no one has it. A lie is a lie even if only a part lie. Immorality is still immoral even if only partly immoral.
Don't you get dizzy?
Willows
Posts: 2,084
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7/26/2016 11:15:23 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 1:52:22 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
Con:
"I offer that any moral act done in the name of the Christian god is equally possible with a Secular worldview."

In Atheism there is no objective "morality" because Atheism is not an ideology, a belief, nor a worldview, but simply the lack of belief that God(s) exist. If Atheism is correct, there is no objective "morality". Under the Atheist construct I can legitimately do things simply because:

1)They are biolgoically driven

2)Of the "Survival of the fittest"

3)I felt like it, and morality is simply a semantical word of religious "types"

Seeing Atheism can provide us with no objective morality, I must use the version actually available to us. That would be religious morality, and in this case, as per Con's opening dialogue, Christian morality.

Con is making a claim of "equal or greater morality" in Atheism. By Christian morality, this in and of itself is grievously immoral.

Christians are actually purposefully claiming the "low ground". This is where their "righteousness" comes from, not of themselves(self righteousness), but of Christ(Christ's righteousness).

Con has assumed(wrongly) that Christianity assumes and needs a physical ethics "highground" of "works" on Atheists. This is a false assessment. Con is trapped in Secular Pharisaism.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

--

Christians do not claim a "highground" on Atheists on ethics, nor should they. This is actually the "moral" or "righteous" act according to Christianity, to not claim your own "goodness". To point to one's own "righteousness" is indeed the greater sin in and of itself.

Luke 16:15
And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

Luke 18:9
"And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous."

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Proverbs 20:9
Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin"?

Jeremiah 2:35
Behold, I will enter into judgment with you because you say, 'I have not sinned'.

Proverbs 30:12
There is a kind who is pure in his own eyes, Yet is not washed from his filthiness.

--

TRUE "MORALITY"-

Luke 18:9
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people: robbers, evildoers, adulterers; or even like this tax collector.

I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

The tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

--

Under Christian morality, what a person does by seeking out and pointing out their own "greatness" is become a self righteous hypocrite, and not moral at all.

Luke 5:32:
"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners."

Mark 2:17
"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

John 9:41
"Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

The Pharisee priests began pointing out their "goodness

Matthew 21:31
"Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

--

Con:
"many reprehensible and immoral things have been and are done in the name of the Christian God."

Atheists have killed more people in the last century than all religions combined. Killing people in the name of nothing seems to be the negative variable in this equation.

It is obvious that Atheism cannot be true; for if it were, it would produce a more humane world, since it values only this life and is not swayed by the foolish beliefs of primitive superstitions and religions. However, the opposite proves to be true. Rather than providing the utopia of idealism, it has produced a body count second to none. With recent documents uncovered for the Maoist and Stalinist regimes, it now seems the high end of estimates of 250 million dead (between 1900-1987) are closer to the mark. The Stalinist Purges produced 61 million dead and Mao"s Cultural Revolution produced 70 million casualties.

https://www.scholarscorner.com...

--

Con:
"The Bible is fraught with immoral teachings, as is the Christian faith."

Citation needed.

--

bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Self-Righteousness,-Nature-Of

As usual, your fundamental (no pun intended) understandings are way out of kilter and your wires are very crossed, in fact tangled.

Humans have an innate ability or conscience for morality with or without religion. Being biologically driven and survival of the fittest are also characteristics of all of us whether religious or not.

What theists fail to understand is that atheists (and most theists) get their morals and self discipline by interacting with society.
Religious die-hards on the other hand draw their morals very subjectively by interpreting redundant texts their own way in order to justify their own peculiar views and behaviours.