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Biblical Proof of No Afterlife

dee-em
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7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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7/24/2016 3:32:44 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

Fully agree. There are many many other scriptures too that contradict an afterlife.

But Christianity isn't exactly famous for actually reading the bible.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

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Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

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bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/24/2016 4:00:22 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

All of these verses are strictly dealing with the flesh.
I mean really this is the kind of question that comes from someone who never took anytime to read the very text they are critical of.

We are told
Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

God not being confined to physicality, didn't make man this way either. But as man was made into a physical body, it was possible by eating of this tree that his physicality could become immortal.

Zechariah 12:1 New International Version
A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares
here we are told in the OT of a human spirit.

1 Kings 17:21-22King James Version (KJV)
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Here once again told of a spirit.

Theres the separation from God in the spirit only
Isaiah 59:2New International Version (NIV)
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear

life in the spirit

John 6:58 New International Version
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

John 5:24 New International Version
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ezekiel 18:4King James Version (KJV)

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The basis of the separation that occurred in the garden.

Ezekiel 18:20King James Version (KJV)

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ill leave you with
1 peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
dee-em
Posts: 6,466
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7/24/2016 8:21:44 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 4:00:22 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

All of these verses are strictly dealing with the flesh.
I mean really this is the kind of question that comes from someone who never took anytime to read the very text they are critical of.

No, they are not strictly dealing with the flesh. Nowhere does the text say that. God specifically states that man must not live forever.

We are told
Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

God not being confined to physicality, didn't make man this way either. But as man was made into a physical body, it was possible by eating of this tree that his physicality could become immortal.

That is not in dispute. What is your point? By cutting off access to the tree of life (whatever that is) man was being punished by God and consigned to a finite life. This is exactly my interpretation. Hence death is permanent.

Zechariah 12:1 New International Version
A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares
here we are told in the OT of a human spirit.

So?

1 Kings 17:21-22King James Version (KJV)
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

So? The child would still be destined to a finite life according to God's own words in Genesis.

Here once again told of a spirit.

Theres the separation from God in the spirit only
Isaiah 59:2New International Version (NIV)
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear

life in the spirit


John 6:58 New International Version
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

John is having Jesus directly contradict the word of God in Genesis. Someone is lying. Is it Jesus or God?

John 5:24 New International Version
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Either Jesus lied or God did. All you are doing is pointing out a contradiction. Someone is lying. Who is it?

Ezekiel 18:4King James Version (KJV)

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The basis of the separation that occurred in the garden.

Ezekiel 18:20King James Version (KJV)

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So God lied in Genesis?

Ill leave you with
1 peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

None of this alters the fact that the gospel writers are contradicting God. You need to choose who is lying. Please tell us.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/24/2016 5:05:21 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 8:21:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2016 4:00:22 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

All of these verses are strictly dealing with the flesh.
I mean really this is the kind of question that comes from someone who never took anytime to read the very text they are critical of.

No, they are not strictly dealing with the flesh. Nowhere does the text say that. God specifically states that man must not live forever.

Hahahaha! This is exactly how cults start. I dont know if this is a serious topic or not. I cant argue with someone who wants to argue 2+2=5. You dont want to let the text speak for itself then dont. Just know it makes you look very silly.

Why doesnt anyone bring this up in apologetical debates? Did you even consider that? Or how 99.99999% of theologians will disagree with you?

We are told
Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

God not being confined to physicality, didn't make man this way either. But as man was made into a physical body, it was possible by eating of this tree that his physicality could become immortal.

That is not in dispute. What is your point? By cutting off access to the tree of life (whatever that is) man was being punished by God and consigned to a finite life. This is exactly my interpretation. Hence death is permanent.

Did God form man AND THEN breath into him the breath of life, yes or no? Please tell me you at least have read the whole 1st chapter.

Zechariah 12:1 New International Version
A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares
here we are told in the OT of a human spirit.

So?

Whats this spirit doing here if you just die and thats it?

1 Kings 17:21-22King James Version (KJV)
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

So? The child would still be destined to a finite life according to God's own words in Genesis.

Where did his spirit go?

Here once again told of a spirit.

Theres the separation from God in the spirit only
Isaiah 59:2New International Version (NIV)
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear

life in the spirit


I noticed you didnt bother to deal with this one because it particuarly destroys this occult thought on the subject.

John 6:58 New International Version
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

John is having Jesus directly contradict the word of God in Genesis. Someone is lying. Is it Jesus or God?

Dont you know the point of the messiah was to establish the kingdom again? Why do you think joseph wanted to be and was buried in Israel with his fathers?

John 5:24 New International Version
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Either Jesus lied or God did. All you are doing is pointing out a contradiction. Someone is lying. Who is it?

Well its up to you to show the Jews werent ever expecting to rise from the grave.

Ezekiel 18:4King James Version (KJV)

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The basis of the separation that occurred in the garden.

Ezekiel 18:20King James Version (KJV)

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So God lied in Genesis?

Well I thought the crux of your argument is Jesus is contradictory. Have you not read the entire bible? Its your lie in genesis lmao.

Ill leave you with
1 peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

None of this alters the fact that the gospel writers are contradicting God. You need to choose who is lying. Please tell us.

Haha I mean this cant be a serious discussion is it?
dee-em
Posts: 6,466
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7/25/2016 12:12:41 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 5:05:21 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/24/2016 8:21:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2016 4:00:22 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

All of these verses are strictly dealing with the flesh.
I mean really this is the kind of question that comes from someone who never took anytime to read the very text they are critical of.

No, they are not strictly dealing with the flesh. Nowhere does the text say that. God specifically states that man must not live forever.

Hahahaha! This is exactly how cults start. I dont know if this is a serious topic or not. I cant argue with someone who wants to argue 2+2=5. You dont want to let the text speak for itself then dont. Just know it makes you look very silly.

Show me where the text is limited to flesh. You can't. Here is the situation. Man was initially created immortal which means there was no concept of going to heaven (or hell), ie. no afterlife. The heavens were for heavenly beings, God and whoever else he refers to in the "us". Then man disobeyed God by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge and God chose to punish him by taking away his eternal life. This is what the text is saying. You would have us believe that what this really means is that when man died he would be given a glorious afterlife in the heavens. Then how was he punished? That makes absolutely no sense.

In fact, a case could be made that this is a reward not a punishment since it puts man in the direct presence of God. Such an interpretation renders the whole passage absurd. God specifically states "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever". If death is not really death and there is an eternal afterlife then man is living forever. You can't have an afterlife which is not life (living).

It doesn't avail you to quote any other scripture which contradicts the above. You have to deal with this passage. Did God lie when he dictated that man must not live forever? Your only objection seems to be that "life" only refers to fleshly life. I have shown how that is an incoherent position. Therefore the question remains. Did God lie or is there no afterlife?
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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7/25/2016 1:48:25 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:12:41 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2016 5:05:21 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/24/2016 8:21:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2016 4:00:22 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

All of these verses are strictly dealing with the flesh.
I mean really this is the kind of question that comes from someone who never took anytime to read the very text they are critical of.

No, they are not strictly dealing with the flesh. Nowhere does the text say that. God specifically states that man must not live forever.

Hahahaha! This is exactly how cults start. I dont know if this is a serious topic or not. I cant argue with someone who wants to argue 2+2=5. You dont want to let the text speak for itself then dont. Just know it makes you look very silly.

Show me where the text is limited to flesh. You can't. Here is the situation. Man was initially created immortal

I see you are being serious. Lets get down to the basics of things here and I think its fair to say your not too familiar with the text your addressing. Can you name a single verse where it suggests that man was initially created immortal?

Heres where it is limited to flesh
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground
Here is where it is limited to spirit
Genesis 2:7 and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

which means there was no concept of going to heaven (or hell), ie. no afterlife. The heavens were for heavenly beings, God and whoever else he refers to in the "us". Then man disobeyed God by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge and God chose to punish him by taking away his eternal life. This is what the text is saying. You would have us believe that what this really means is that when man died he would be given a glorious afterlife in the heavens. Then how was he punished? That makes absolutely no sense.

There wasn't a punishment to give yet because there was nothing to punish. Hell by the way was reserved for the rebellious angels. Man was never supposed to wind up there because as a race it wasn't until the apple incident that man disobeyed God and took the side of sin.

In fact, a case could be made that this is a reward not a punishment since it puts man in the direct presence of God. Such an interpretation renders the whole passage absurd. God specifically states "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever". If death is not really death and there is an eternal afterlife then man is living forever. You can't have an afterlife which is not life (living).

Well again this is coming from this hypothesis that man was intended to live forever in the garden. We don't have a reason to think that.

A really huge blockade to your entire argument is in Genesis 5:21-24 and this is likely what might have happened to man at some point had he not eaten the apple.
"21And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

So where did Enoch go? If theres no such thing as an afterlife then where did God take Enoch after he walked with God?

It doesn't avail you to quote any other scripture which contradicts the above. You have to deal with this passage. Did God lie when he dictated that man must not live forever? Your only objection seems to be that "life" only refers to fleshly life. I have shown how that is an incoherent position. Therefore the question remains. Did God lie or is there no afterlife?

I see your bothered with evidence that doesn't go your way. That's your choice not to address it, just again remember it doesn't make your argument look good at all.
dee-em
Posts: 6,466
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7/25/2016 2:12:25 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 1:48:25 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/25/2016 12:12:41 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2016 5:05:21 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/24/2016 8:21:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2016 4:00:22 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

All of these verses are strictly dealing with the flesh.
I mean really this is the kind of question that comes from someone who never took anytime to read the very text they are critical of.

No, they are not strictly dealing with the flesh. Nowhere does the text say that. God specifically states that man must not live forever.

Hahahaha! This is exactly how cults start. I dont know if this is a serious topic or not. I cant argue with someone who wants to argue 2+2=5. You dont want to let the text speak for itself then dont. Just know it makes you look very silly.

Show me where the text is limited to flesh. You can't. Here is the situation. Man was initially created immortal ...

I see you are being serious. Lets get down to the basics of things here and I think its fair to say your not too familiar with the text your addressing. Can you name a single verse where it suggests that man was initially created immortal?

Okay, I retract that. But this is still just splitting hairs. Whether man was created immortal or he was sustained as immortal by daily (?) doses of an immortality drug from the tree of life is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Heres where it is limited to flesh
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground
Here is where it is limited to spirit
Genesis 2:7 and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

I'm sorry, what? How does this relate to death and no eternal life?

... which means there was no concept of going to heaven (or hell), ie. no afterlife. The heavens were for heavenly beings, God and whoever else he refers to in the "us". Then man disobeyed God by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge and God chose to punish him by taking away his eternal life. This is what the text is saying. You would have us believe that what this really means is that when man died he would be given a glorious afterlife in the heavens. Then how was he punished? That makes absolutely no sense.

There wasn't a punishment to give yet because there was nothing to punish.

I beg yours? Are we reading the same book, the Bible? You can't be serious.

Hell by the way was reserved for the rebellious angels. Man was never supposed to wind up there because as a race it wasn't until the apple incident that man disobeyed God and took the side of sin.

Irrelevant to any point I was making.

In fact, a case could be made that this is a reward not a punishment since it puts man in the direct presence of God. Such an interpretation renders the whole passage absurd. God specifically states "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever". If death is not really death and there is an eternal afterlife then man is living forever. You can't have an afterlife which is not life (living).

Well again this is coming from this hypothesis that man was intended to live forever in the garden. We don't have a reason to think that.

We don't? So you think man would have been banished from the garden anyway? Scriptural source for this please.

Genesis 2
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


This seems like a permanent job as caretaker of the garden to me, with only one condition whereby he would be "sacked".

A really huge blockade to your entire argument is in Genesis 5:21-24 and this is likely what might have happened to man at some point had he not eaten the apple.
"21And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

Nonsense. This is all after the Fall.

So where did Enoch go? If theres no such thing as an afterlife then where did God take Enoch after he walked with God?

Oh please. God took him away is a euphemism for death taking him. For every other person mentioned in Genesis 5 it ends with "and then he died". For example:

5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

Nothing about an afterlife there. Just "he died".

Besides, I've already told you that quoting possibly contradictory passages does not avail you. See below.

It doesn't avail you to quote any other scripture which contradicts the above. You have to deal with this passage. Did God lie when he dictated that man must not live forever? Your only objection seems to be that "life" only refers to fleshly life. I have shown how that is an incoherent position. Therefore the question remains. Did God lie or is there no afterlife?

I see your bothered with evidence that doesn't go your way. That's your choice not to address it, just again remember it doesn't make your argument look good at all.

Not at all. I can safely ignore contradictory passages. You need to deal with the passage I have highlighted and answer my questions. Are you ever planning to or are you going to continue dodging indefinitely?
Willows
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7/25/2016 2:20:28 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 4:00:22 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

All of these verses are strictly dealing with the flesh.
I mean really this is the kind of question that comes from someone who never took anytime to read the very text they are critical of.

We are told
Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

God not being confined to physicality, didn't make man this way either. But as man was made into a physical body, it was possible by eating of this tree that his physicality could become immortal.

Zechariah 12:1 New International Version
A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares
here we are told in the OT of a human spirit.

1 Kings 17:21-22King James Version (KJV)
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Here once again told of a spirit.

Theres the separation from God in the spirit only
Isaiah 59:2New International Version (NIV)
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear

life in the spirit


John 6:58 New International Version
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

John 5:24 New International Version
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ezekiel 18:4King James Version (KJV)

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The basis of the separation that occurred in the garden.

Ezekiel 18:20King James Version (KJV)

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ill leave you with
1 peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

As sure as this topic keeps going I can guarantee that every post will have a different interpretation.
The bible is so riddled with contradictions, inaccuracies and garbled nonsense is it any wonder that there are so many different Christian denominations? Each claiming it knows the truth and accurately interprets thine holy rag.
pacchu
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7/25/2016 2:39:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it? : :

Neither one. You're the one who is lying.
dee-em
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7/25/2016 2:47:20 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:39:44 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

Neither one.

It has to be one or the other. If there is a third alternative please identify it.

You're the one who is lying.

Thank you. That was very well reasoned. You will do well on a debate site. Lol.
pacchu
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7/25/2016 2:59:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:47:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:39:44 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

Neither one.

It has to be one or the other. If there is a third alternative please identify it.

There is an alternative. You can stop reading the Bible and pretending you understand it.

You're the one who is lying.

Thank you. That was very well reasoned. You will do well on a debate site. Lol. : :

A liar can't interpret the biblical scriptures. As an atheist, you should know that by now.
dee-em
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7/25/2016 3:04:17 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:20:28 PM, Willows wrote:

As sure as this topic keeps going I can guarantee that every post will have a different interpretation.
The bible is so riddled with contradictions, inaccuracies and garbled nonsense is it any wonder that there are so many different Christian denominations? Each claiming it knows the truth and accurately interprets thine holy rag.

What bigotry does not realize is that the OT has an inconsistent view of what happens at death according to Jewish beliefs of the time. Most often it suggests that physical death is the end of life, as I have pointed out. However, it also has references to an underworld (Sheol, or Hades for the Greeks) where all human beings descend to after death and linger on in a kind of shadowy state of existence. Neither is the afterlife envisioned by Christians.
dee-em
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7/25/2016 3:13:26 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:59:10 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:47:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:39:44 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

Neither one.

It has to be one or the other. If there is a third alternative please identify it.

There is an alternative. You can stop reading the Bible and pretending you understand it.

So that's a no I take it?

You're the one who is lying.

Thank you. That was very well reasoned. You will do well on a debate site. Lol. : :

A liar can't interpret the biblical scriptures. As an atheist, you should know that by now.

An atheist always lies and can never "interpret" the written word of God. Okay, I've got it. Do you have anything else to contribute? Something that is not an ad hominem perhaps? Something approaching a reasoned argument perhaps? Can we hope that you did not come here merely to insult and vilify non-members of your tribe?
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/25/2016 3:20:29 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 3:13:26 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:59:10 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:47:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:39:44 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

Neither one.

It has to be one or the other. If there is a third alternative please identify it.

There is an alternative. You can stop reading the Bible and pretending you understand it.

So that's a no I take it?

You're the one who is lying.

Thank you. That was very well reasoned. You will do well on a debate site. Lol. : :

A liar can't interpret the biblical scriptures. As an atheist, you should know that by now.

An atheist always lies and can never "interpret" the written word of God. Okay, I've got it. Do you have anything else to contribute? Something that is not an ad hominem perhaps? Something approaching a reasoned argument perhaps? Can we hope that you did not come here merely to insult and vilify non-members of your tribe?

Did I say that atheist's always lie and can never "interpret" the written word of God?
dee-em
Posts: 6,466
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7/25/2016 3:36:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 3:20:29 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:13:26 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:59:10 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:47:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:39:44 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

Neither one.

It has to be one or the other. If there is a third alternative please identify it.

There is an alternative. You can stop reading the Bible and pretending you understand it.

So that's a no I take it?

You're the one who is lying.

Thank you. That was very well reasoned. You will do well on a debate site. Lol. : :

A liar can't interpret the biblical scriptures. As an atheist, you should know that by now.

An atheist always lies and can never "interpret" the written word of God. Okay, I've got it. Do you have anything else to contribute? Something that is not an ad hominem perhaps? Something approaching a reasoned argument perhaps? Can we hope that you did not come here merely to insult and vilify non-members of your tribe?

Did I say that atheist's always lie and can never "interpret" the written word of God?

Well you've called me (an atheist) a liar right up front without identifying the alleged lie. I can only conclude that you automatically assume all atheists are liars since you don't know me personally. Then you go on to say "as an atheist ..." implying that atheists are familiar with lying and the resultant inability to "interpret" scripture when afflicted with that handicap. Did I miss anything?

Now that you have derailed the discussion and want to pretend that you have been misunderstood, perhaps you would like to demonstrate your sincerity by returning to the topic at hand and posting something pertinent, interesting and reasoned. Would that be a thought?
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/25/2016 4:07:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 3:36:18 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:20:29 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:13:26 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:59:10 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:47:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:39:44 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

Neither one.

It has to be one or the other. If there is a third alternative please identify it.

There is an alternative. You can stop reading the Bible and pretending you understand it.

So that's a no I take it?

You're the one who is lying.

Thank you. That was very well reasoned. You will do well on a debate site. Lol. : :

A liar can't interpret the biblical scriptures. As an atheist, you should know that by now.

An atheist always lies and can never "interpret" the written word of God. Okay, I've got it. Do you have anything else to contribute? Something that is not an ad hominem perhaps? Something approaching a reasoned argument perhaps? Can we hope that you did not come here merely to insult and vilify non-members of your tribe?

Did I say that atheist's always lie and can never "interpret" the written word of God?

Well you've called me (an atheist) a liar right up front without identifying the alleged lie. I can only conclude that you automatically assume all atheists are liars since you don't know me personally. Then you go on to say "as an atheist ..." implying that atheists are familiar with lying and the resultant inability to "interpret" scripture when afflicted with that handicap. Did I miss anything?

Yes. You missed the fact that I did not say "word of God". I said a liar can't interpret the biblical scriptures. Then I said, "As an atheist, you should know better". Any atheist who spends time in religious forums know that there can be many different interpretations of one biblical passage by many different members who call themselves theists, Christians, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, bible believer, born again, or whatever. These members are all liars who can't interpret the biblical scriptures.

I like it when I see atheists quote from the same scriptures that religious people do to prove to them they are liars. I do the same thing but I am not an atheist.


Now that you have derailed the discussion and want to pretend that you have been misunderstood, perhaps you would like to demonstrate your sincerity by returning to the topic at hand and posting something pertinent, interesting and reasoned. Would that be a thought?
bigotry
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7/25/2016 5:49:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Show me where the text is limited to flesh. You can't. Here is the situation. Man was initially created immortal ...

I see you are being serious. Lets get down to the basics of things here and I think its fair to say your not too familiar with the text your addressing. Can you name a single verse where it suggests that man was initially created immortal?

Okay, I retract that. But this is still just splitting hairs. Whether man was created immortal or he was sustained as immortal by daily (?) doses of an immortality drug from the tree of life is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Knowing man wasnt neccesarily immortal easily is consistent with him eating of the tree of knowledge and then the tree of life would have made him physically immortal. This wasnt the plan so the banishment was neccesary.

Heres where it is limited to flesh
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground
Here is where it is limited to spirit
Genesis 2:7 and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

I'm sorry, what? How does this relate to death and no eternal life?

You asked how we know death was limited to flesh, this was the answer.

... which means there was no concept of going to heaven (or hell), ie. no afterlife. The heavens were for heavenly beings, God and whoever else he refers to in the "us". Then man disobeyed God by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge and God chose to punish him by taking away his eternal life. This is what the text is saying. You would have us believe that what this really means is that when man died he would be given a glorious afterlife in the heavens. Then how was he punished? That makes absolutely no sense.

There wasn't a punishment to give yet because there was nothing to punish.

I beg yours? Are we reading the same book, the Bible? You can't be serious.

Im speaking about before man sinned. That is all.

Hell by the way was reserved for the rebellious angels. Man was never supposed to wind up there because as a race it wasn't until the apple incident that man disobeyed God and took the side of sin.

Irrelevant to any point I was making.

Its relevant because a place for spiritual death was establish prior to mans exsistence. Joining into the fold woth rebellious angels put the race in danger of it. Only because there is an afterlife.

In fact, a case could be made that this is a reward not a punishment since it puts man in the direct presence of God. Such an interpretation renders the whole passage absurd. God specifically states "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever". If death is not really death and there is an eternal afterlife then man is living forever. You can't have an afterlife which is not life (living).

Well again this is coming from this hypothesis that man was intended to live forever in the garden. We don't have a reason to think that.

We don't? So you think man would have been banished from the garden anyway? Scriptural source for this please.

Lets not forget your whole argument rested upon from dust you came to dust you will go and that the day you eat of this tree you shall surely die. If man didnt die the day he ate of the tree, how does this support your reasoning? Its that man was separated from God, spiritual death. No man wouldnt have been randomly banished, his descendents would have simply carried on. Why else would God tell him to be fruitful and multiply?
Can you show any Jewish sources that indicate a different understanding??
Genesis 2
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


This seems like a permanent job as caretaker of the garden to me, with only one condition whereby he would be "sacked".

Sure it was a permanent job, until he would physically die...then his sons and daughters would take over.

A really huge blockade to your entire argument is in Genesis 5:21-24 and this is likely what might have happened to man at some point had he not eaten the apple.
"21And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

Nonsense. This is all after the Fall.

Why would that matter in your opinion?

So where did Enoch go? If theres no such thing as an afterlife then where did God take Enoch after he walked with God?

Oh please. God took him away is a euphemism for death taking him. For every other person mentioned in Genesis 5 it ends with "and then he died". For example:

5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

And yet the hebrew proves you wrong: the word used in the phrase God took him is "la:qua" your point would be correct if this term was ever used in conjunction with physical death but it isnt. It means time and time to take and even to take to be married.
It is used when God takes a rib out of adam (gen 2:22) in 36:2 when Esau takes wives in numbers 12:1 for marriage. I can list about 50 other references where the word is used in conjunction with ownership. This is God taking Enoch because he belonged to him in a special way because he was a very holy man.

So again I have to ask where did God take enoch to?
Nothing about an afterlife there. Just "he died".

Then show that la:qah means he died.
Besides, I've already told you that quoting possibly contradictory passages does not avail you. See below.

It doesn't avail you to quote any other scripture which contradicts the above. You have to deal with this passage. Did God lie when he dictated that man must not live forever? Your only objection seems to be that "life" only refers to fleshly life. I have shown how that is an incoherent position. Therefore the question remains. Did God lie or is there no afterlife?

You simply havent address anything except very superficially. I will wait to see your explaination for the above.

I see your bothered with evidence that doesn't go your way. That's your choice not to address it, just again remember it doesn't make your argument look good at all.

Not at all. I can safely ignore contradictory passages. You need to deal with the passage I have highlighted and answer my questions. Are you ever planning to or are you going to continue dodging indefinitely?

Well once again, where did Enoch go and how does la:qah mean death?
bigotry
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7/25/2016 5:53:32 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:20:28 PM, Willows wrote:
At 7/24/2016 4:00:22 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

All of these verses are strictly dealing with the flesh.
I mean really this is the kind of question that comes from someone who never took anytime to read the very text they are critical of.

We are told
Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

God not being confined to physicality, didn't make man this way either. But as man was made into a physical body, it was possible by eating of this tree that his physicality could become immortal.

Zechariah 12:1 New International Version
A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares
here we are told in the OT of a human spirit.

1 Kings 17:21-22King James Version (KJV)
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Here once again told of a spirit.

Theres the separation from God in the spirit only
Isaiah 59:2New International Version (NIV)
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear

life in the spirit


John 6:58 New International Version
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."

John 5:24 New International Version
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Ezekiel 18:4King James Version (KJV)

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The basis of the separation that occurred in the garden.

Ezekiel 18:20King James Version (KJV)

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ill leave you with
1 peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

As sure as this topic keeps going I can guarantee that every post will have a different interpretation.
The bible is so riddled with contradictions, inaccuracies and garbled nonsense is it any wonder that there are so many different Christian denominations? Each claiming it knows the truth and accurately interprets thine holy rag.
These only arise out of an ignorance to the text and a refusal to examine what words actually mean. As I have shown in other topics the interlinear words matter for a real understanding.
For example Enoch was taken. Where did he go? The term la:qah doesnt mean death and is used in conjunction with taking ownership or taking a wife. If anyone can show he died and was buried then there might be some more wiggle room in a position that has none so far. 99.9999% of theologians disagree with the premise of this topic and realistcly probably 100% of learned ones with doctoral degrees.
dee-em
Posts: 6,466
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7/26/2016 12:05:38 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 4:07:30 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:36:18 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:20:29 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:13:26 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:59:10 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:47:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:39:44 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians claim that there is a heaven awaiting (some of) them when they die. This is directly contradicted by their own holy text:

Genesis 3 (The Fall)
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


God explicitly states that man must not become like us (whoever the "us" are) and live forever. To the best of my knowledge the Garden of Eden has never been found and no-one is eating the fruit from the tree of life. Therefore there is either no afterlife or God lied. Which is it?

Neither one.

It has to be one or the other. If there is a third alternative please identify it.

There is an alternative. You can stop reading the Bible and pretending you understand it.

So that's a no I take it?

You're the one who is lying.

Thank you. That was very well reasoned. You will do well on a debate site. Lol. : :

A liar can't interpret the biblical scriptures. As an atheist, you should know that by now.

An atheist always lies and can never "interpret" the written word of God. Okay, I've got it. Do you have anything else to contribute? Something that is not an ad hominem perhaps? Something approaching a reasoned argument perhaps? Can we hope that you did not come here merely to insult and vilify non-members of your tribe?

Did I say that atheist's always lie and can never "interpret" the written word of God?

Well you've called me (an atheist) a liar right up front without identifying the alleged lie. I can only conclude that you automatically assume all atheists are liars since you don't know me personally. Then you go on to say "as an atheist ..." implying that atheists are familiar with lying and the resultant inability to "interpret" scripture when afflicted with that handicap. Did I miss anything?

Yes. You missed the fact that I did not say "word of God".

Most theists equate scripture with the word of God. Since we are discussing Genesis on that basis, is there a problem?

I said a liar can't interpret the biblical scriptures.

Non sequitur.

Then I said, "As an atheist, you should know better". Any atheist who spends time in religious forums know that there can be many different interpretations of one biblical passage by many different members who call themselves theists, Christians, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, bible believer, born again, or whatever. These members are all liars who can't interpret the biblical scriptures.

Really? So everyone (including atheists) is a liar except you? That's interesting. If both theists and atheists are liars, what are you exactly and what gives you the qualifcations to denounce the rest of the world as liars?

I like it when I see atheists quote from the same scriptures that religious people do to prove to them they are liars. I do the same thing but I am not an atheist.

Even more interesting since you have accused me of lying too. In fact 'lying' and 'liars' seem to be your favourite words. Lol.

Now that you have derailed the discussion and want to pretend that you have been misunderstood, perhaps you would like to demonstrate your sincerity by returning to the topic at hand and posting something pertinent, interesting and reasoned. Would that be a thought?

I guess it wouldn't be a thought. Duly noted.
dee-em
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7/26/2016 1:10:11 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 5:49:05 PM, bigotry wrote:

I see you are being serious. Lets get down to the basics of things here and I think its fair to say your not too familiar with the text your addressing. Can you name a single verse where it suggests that man was initially created immortal?

Okay, I retract that. But this is still just splitting hairs. Whether man was created immortal or he was sustained as immortal by daily (?) doses of an immortality drug from the tree of life is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Knowing man wasnt neccesarily immortal easily is consistent with him eating of the tree of knowledge and then the tree of life would have made him physically immortal. This wasnt the plan so the banishment was neccesary.

What plan? I'm sorry but I can't parse what you are saying. Please elaborate.

Heres where it is limited to flesh
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground
Here is where it is limited to spirit
Genesis 2:7 and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

I'm sorry, what? How does this relate to death and no eternal life?

You asked how we know death was limited to flesh, this was the answer.

That's no answer at all since there is no mention of death.

... which means there was no concept of going to heaven (or hell), ie. no afterlife. The heavens were for heavenly beings, God and whoever else he refers to in the "us". Then man disobeyed God by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge and God chose to punish him by taking away his eternal life. This is what the text is saying. You would have us believe that what this really means is that when man died he would be given a glorious afterlife in the heavens. Then how was he punished? That makes absolutely no sense.

There wasn't a punishment to give yet because there was nothing to punish.

I beg yours? Are we reading the same book, the Bible? You can't be serious.

Im speaking about before man sinned. That is all.

Why? How is that in any way relevant to the argument I was making?

Hell by the way was reserved for the rebellious angels. Man was never supposed to wind up there because as a race it wasn't until the apple incident that man disobeyed God and took the side of sin.

Irrelevant to any point I was making.

Its relevant because a place for spiritual death was establish prior to mans exsistence. Joining into the fold woth rebellious angels put the race in danger of it. Only because there is an afterlife.

What? Where are you getting this from and how does it relate to the clear statement by God that man is to be denied eternal life? Please address the elephant in the room whenever you are ready.

In fact, a case could be made that this is a reward not a punishment since it puts man in the direct presence of God. Such an interpretation renders the whole passage absurd. God specifically states "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever". If death is not really death and there is an eternal afterlife then man is living forever. You can't have an afterlife which is not life (living).

Well again this is coming from this hypothesis that man was intended to live forever in the garden. We don't have a reason to think that.

We don't? So you think man would have been banished from the garden anyway? Scriptural source for this please.

Lets not forget your whole argument rested upon from dust you came to dust you will go and that the day you eat of this tree you shall surely die. If man didnt die the day he ate of the tree, how does this support your reasoning?

That is indeed a puzzle. However, inconsistencies in the Bible are not my problem and this is another red herring from the issue at hand. Please stay on-topic. The text under discussion is Genesis 3:19-24 where God banishes man from the Garden and explicitly denies him eternal life.

Its that man was separated from God, spiritual death. No man wouldnt have been randomly banished, his descendents would have simply carried on. Why else would God tell him to be fruitful and multiply?

Huh? What is spiritual death? How does any of this relate to God denying man eternal life? Besides you are contradicting yourself. If the spirit dies then what goes to heaven?

Can you show any Jewish sources that indicate a different understanding??

A different understanding of what? This is all irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

Genesis 2
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


This seems like a permanent job as caretaker of the garden to me, with only one condition whereby he would be "sacked".

Sure it was a permanent job, until he would physically die...then his sons and daughters would take over.

You miss the point. He wasn't going to physically die whilst he was in the Garden. I have no idea what point you think you are making. Man had the guarantee of eternal life and then lost it. That is what the passage from Genesis 3 is about, right?
dee-em
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7/26/2016 1:40:36 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 5:49:05 PM, bigotry wrote:

A really huge blockade to your entire argument is in Genesis 5:21-24 and this is likely what might have happened to man at some point had he not eaten the apple.
"21And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

Nonsense. This is all after the Fall.

Why would that matter in your opinion?

Um, because people started dying after the Fall. Why else? You asserted that this was likely to happen to man anyway. On what scriptural basis do you make that claim? You have none.

So where did Enoch go? If theres no such thing as an afterlife then where did God take Enoch after he walked with God?

Oh please. God took him away is a euphemism for death taking him. For every other person mentioned in Genesis 5 it ends with "and then he died". For example:

5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

And yet the hebrew proves you wrong: the word used in the phrase God took him is "la:qua" your point would be correct if this term was ever used in conjunction with physical death but it isnt. It means time and time to take and even to take to be married.
It is used when God takes a rib out of adam (gen 2:22) in 36:2 when Esau takes wives in numbers 12:1 for marriage. I can list about 50 other references where the word is used in conjunction with ownership. This is God taking Enoch because he belonged to him in a special way because he was a very holy man.

I'm not disputing that the word is "take". I'm suggesting that the phrase "took him" is an idiom and a euphemism for dying as evidenced by all the other deaths listed in Genesis 5. Let's say you are right though and God literally came to Earth and took him. Where did God take him? Nothing in the text states that they went to heaven together. Perhaps God took him and buried him. Who knows? The text is inconclusive.

Since you want to play this game of finding contradictory scripture in the Bible (a game I have explicitly stated I don't wish to play as it is counter-productive) try this on for size:

Jesus said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" (John 3:13)

If we accept your interpretation that God took Enoch to heaven with him then Jesus lied. You have a choice. Abandon your interpretation or admit that Jesus lied. Which is it?

Let me assume that you are still going to insist, despite everything, that Enoch was taken to heaven. How does this help you? That makes God a liar in Genesis 3. You can't win.

So again I have to ask where did God take enoch to?

I don't know and neither do you. I can only assume he buried the poor dead sod.

Nothing about an afterlife there. Just "he died".

Then show that la:qah means he died.

I don't need to. See above.

Besides, I've already told you that quoting possibly contradictory passages does not avail you. See below.

It doesn't avail you to quote any other scripture which contradicts the above. You have to deal with this passage. Did God lie when he dictated that man must not live forever? Your only objection seems to be that "life" only refers to fleshly life. I have shown how that is an incoherent position. Therefore the question remains. Did God lie or is there no afterlife?

You simply havent address anything except very superficially. I will wait to see your explaination for the above.

I see your bothered with evidence that doesn't go your way. That's your choice not to address it, just again remember it doesn't make your argument look good at all.

Not at all. I can safely ignore contradictory passages. You need to deal with the passage I have highlighted and answer my questions. Are you ever planning to or are you going to continue dodging indefinitely?

Well once again, where did Enoch go and how does la:qah mean death?

So you opt to continue dodging. Understood. You have nothing else obviously.
keithprosser
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7/26/2016 2:34:27 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
I don't want to interrupt, but it is evident that the OT Hebrews did believe in a soul, but not in any sort of afterlife. This is clearest in Psalm 6:

3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O Lord, how long?
4 Return, O Lord, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Soul in the OT is probably something more akin to 'life force'.

It is also clearly stated in Luke 20:27 the NT that the Sadducees - who represented a very traditional form of Hebrew faith - did not hold with resurrection: "Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,".

Historically, the ancient Hebrews did not belive in an afterlife, but the idea had been assimilated by at least some Jews by the time of Jesus, probably as a result of contact with Hellenic culture.
bigotry
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7/26/2016 4:56:06 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 1:10:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:49:05 PM, bigotry wrote:

I see you are being serious. Lets get down to the basics of things here and I think its fair to say your not too familiar with the text your addressing. Can you name a single verse where it suggests that man was initially created immortal?

Okay, I retract that. But this is still just splitting hairs. Whether man was created immortal or he was sustained as immortal by daily (?) doses of an immortality drug from the tree of life is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Knowing man wasnt neccesarily immortal easily is consistent with him eating of the tree of knowledge and then the tree of life would have made him physically immortal. This wasnt the plan so the banishment was neccesary.

What plan? I'm sorry but I can't parse what you are saying. Please elaborate.

The plan was never for the flesh of man to live forever. I challenge you or anyone else to find a scripture that would support otherwise.

Heres where it is limited to flesh
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground
Here is where it is limited to spirit
Genesis 2:7 and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

I'm sorry, what? How does this relate to death and no eternal life?

You asked how we know death was limited to flesh, this was the answer.

If we know the flesh was never intended to live forever, then that is the answer.

That's no answer at all since there is no mention of death.

... which means there was no concept of going to heaven (or hell), ie. no afterlife. The heavens were for heavenly beings, God and whoever else he refers to in the "us". Then man disobeyed God by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge and God chose to punish him by taking away his eternal life. This is what the text is saying. You would have us believe that what this really means is that when man died he would be given a glorious afterlife in the heavens. Then how was he punished? That makes absolutely no sense.

There wasn't a punishment to give yet because there was nothing to punish.

I beg yours? Are we reading the same book, the Bible? You can't be serious.

Im speaking about before man sinned. That is all.

Why? How is that in any way relevant to the argument I was making?

It is because there wasn't a concept of going to hell prior to the fall because there was no danger of such. After the fall, spiritual death was evident in that a separation from God was now possible and a reality.

Hell by the way was reserved for the rebellious angels. Man was never supposed to wind up there because as a race it wasn't until the apple incident that man disobeyed God and took the side of sin.

Irrelevant to any point I was making.

Its relevant because a place for spiritual death was establish prior to mans exsistence. Joining into the fold woth rebellious angels put the race in danger of it. Only because there is an afterlife.

What? Where are you getting this from and how does it relate to the clear statement by God that man is to be denied eternal life? Please address the elephant in the room whenever you are ready.

Matthew 25:41 New International Version
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The devil and his angels were around before mankind. Thus the point.


In fact, a case could be made that this is a reward not a punishment since it puts man in the direct presence of God. Such an interpretation renders the whole passage absurd. God specifically states "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever". If death is not really death and there is an eternal afterlife then man is living forever. You can't have an afterlife which is not life (living).

Well again this is coming from this hypothesis that man was intended to live forever in the garden. We don't have a reason to think that.

We don't? So you think man would have been banished from the garden anyway? Scriptural source for this please.

Lets not forget your whole argument rested upon from dust you came to dust you will go and that the day you eat of this tree you shall surely die. If man didnt die the day he ate of the tree, how does this support your reasoning?

That is indeed a puzzle. However, inconsistencies in the Bible are not my problem and this is another red herring from the issue at hand. Please stay on-topic. The text under discussion is Genesis 3:19-24 where God banishes man from the Garden and explicitly denies him eternal life.

Its actually not much of a puzzle. Man is told in the day he eats of the fruit of this tree, he will surely die. He eats of the tree and in the same day is separated from God thus causing spiritual death.
Man was in the garden, in Gods presence
Then man was not in the garden, not in Gods presence
Man did not die for literally hundreds of years later.
The separation of man from God was mans death spoken about in the referenced scripture.
unless you can show another logical flow of events here, there isn't much else to elaborate on especially considering how your unwilling to accept new testament elaboration on the subject from Jesus himself who is God.

Its that man was separated from God, spiritual death. No man wouldnt have been randomly banished, his descendents would have simply carried on. Why else would God tell him to be fruitful and multiply?

Huh? What is spiritual death? How does any of this relate to God denying man eternal life? Besides you are contradicting yourself. If the spirit dies then what goes to heaven?

spiritual death is separation from God and man. This is the death you referenced.
If the spirit dies then it does not go to heaven.

Can you show any Jewish sources that indicate a different understanding??

that separation of God and man cant mean death.

A different understanding of what? This is all irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

Genesis 2
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


This seems like a permanent job as caretaker of the garden to me, with only one condition whereby he would be "sacked".

Sure it was a permanent job, until he would physically die...then his sons and daughters would take over.

You miss the point. He wasn't going to physically die whilst he was in the Garden. I have no idea what point you think you are making. Man had the guarantee of eternal life and then lost it. That is what the passage from Genesis 3 is about, right?

if he wasn't going to physically die then why did God banish man because he might eat of the tree of life and live forever?
bigotry
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7/26/2016 5:04:35 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 1:40:36 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:49:05 PM, bigotry wrote:

A really huge blockade to your entire argument is in Genesis 5:21-24 and this is likely what might have happened to man at some point had he not eaten the apple.
"21And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

Nonsense. This is all after the Fall.

Why would that matter in your opinion?

Um, because people started dying after the Fall. Why else? You asserted that this was likely to happen to man anyway. On what scriptural basis do you make that claim? You have none.

Gen 3:22 "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."


So where did Enoch go? If theres no such thing as an afterlife then where did God take Enoch after he walked with God?

Oh please. God took him away is a euphemism for death taking him. For every other person mentioned in Genesis 5 it ends with "and then he died". For example:

5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

And yet the hebrew proves you wrong: the word used in the phrase God took him is "la:qua" your point would be correct if this term was ever used in conjunction with physical death but it isnt. It means time and time to take and even to take to be married.
It is used when God takes a rib out of adam (gen 2:22) in 36:2 when Esau takes wives in numbers 12:1 for marriage. I can list about 50 other references where the word is used in conjunction with ownership. This is God taking Enoch because he belonged to him in a special way because he was a very holy man.

I'm not disputing that the word is "take". I'm suggesting that the phrase "took him" is an idiom and a euphemism for dying as evidenced by all the other deaths listed in Genesis 5.

Then it should be easy for you to show this is what the Hebrew means.

Let's say you are right though and God literally came to Earth and took him. Where did God take him? Nothing in the text states that they went to heaven together. Perhaps God took him and buried him. Who knows? The text is inconclusive.

So what is your conclusion? Where did God likely take him? ........

Since you want to play this game of finding contradictory scripture in the Bible (a game I have explicitly stated I don't wish to play as it is counter-productive) try this on for size:

Jesus said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" (John 3:13)

This still holds true, God took Enoch. Enoch didn't take himself there. But its nice to see your willing to accept the NT as an authority now.

If we accept your interpretation that God took Enoch to heaven with him then Jesus lied. You have a choice. Abandon your interpretation or admit that Jesus lied. Which is it?

Does the scripture say Enoch ascended himself into heaven?

Let me assume that you are still going to insist, despite everything, that Enoch was taken to heaven. How does this help you? That makes God a liar in Genesis 3. You can't win.

How so? God didn't la:qah adam anywhere.

So again I have to ask where did God take enoch to?

I don't know and neither do you. I can only assume he buried the poor dead sod.

why? because your argument has fallen apart?

Nothing about an afterlife there. Just "he died".

Then show that la:qah means he died.

I don't need to. See above.

yes you do because that's the term that's used. So show me or continue to dodge.

Besides, I've already told you that quoting possibly contradictory passages does not avail you. See below.

It doesn't avail you to quote any other scripture which contradicts the above. You have to deal with this passage. Did God lie when he dictated that man must not live forever? Your only objection seems to be that "life" only refers to fleshly life. I have shown how that is an incoherent position. Therefore the question remains. Did God lie or is there no afterlife?

You simply havent address anything except very superficially. I will wait to see your explaination for the above.

I see your bothered with evidence that doesn't go your way. That's your choice not to address it, just again remember it doesn't make your argument look good at all.

Not at all. I can safely ignore contradictory passages. You need to deal with the passage I have highlighted and answer my questions. Are you ever planning to or are you going to continue dodging indefinitely?

Well once again, where did Enoch go and how does la:qah mean death?

So you opt to continue dodging. Understood. You have nothing else obviously.
So you still haven't shown la:qah to mean death of any kind. Nice dodge.
bulproof
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7/26/2016 1:14:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
FACT: People DIE.
FACT: No people ever come back from DEATH.
Conclusion: Afterlife is CRAP.
But more than that, god's and religions are the result of people's fear of death. God's and religion are used by the frightened to convince themselves that death doesn't exist and so are able to exist knowing that they won't die.
The world, their experience proves to them that everything dies but because they have a fear beyond fear of their death they rely on a belief that they will not die.
They don't even understand that they reject the idea of death but that is precisely what their religion is, a denial of the truth of death.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/26/2016 2:17:49 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 12:05:38 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:07:30 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:36:18 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:20:29 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:13:26 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:59:10 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:47:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:39:44 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/24/2016 12:09:09 AM, dee-em wrote:

Yes. You missed the fact that I did not say "word of God".

Most theists equate scripture with the word of God. Since we are discussing Genesis on that basis, is there a problem?

First of all, you say "theist". That name can be very confusing because it describes people who believe in a god. Some of these theists read the Bible and try interpret some of the passages in it but they all come up with differing interpretations. This proves that most of them are liars. Most of the biblical passages are referring to something that's impossible to see but liars who read the Bible don't know what they're looking for. Many of them listen to their leaders who read the Bible and believe their interpretations without knowing if their leader is a liar or not.

I have met many atheists who know that Bible believers are liars because of their contradictions and not living according to what they believe. They see these Bible believers as hypocrites and so do I.

I said a liar can't interpret the biblical scriptures.

Non sequitur.

non sequitur
1: an inference that does not follow from the premises; specifically : a fallacy resulting from a simple conversion of a universal affirmative proposition or from the transposition of a condition and its consequent
2: a statement (as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said

You have the wrong word to describe what I said. My statement, "liars can't interpret the biblical scriptures", is a true statement.


Really? So everyone (including atheists) is a liar except you? That's interesting. If both theists and atheists are liars, what are you exactly and what gives you the qualifcations to denounce the rest of the world as liars?

Did I say I was not a liar? I haven't said anything about who I am or what I know to be true. I can see that Christians are hypocrites and don't believe much of the biblical scriptures they read. I can see that atheists don't do any better at interpreting the biblical scriptures either.

I like it when I see atheists quote from the same scriptures that religious people do to prove to them they are liars. I do the same thing but I am not an atheist.

Even more interesting since you have accused me of lying too. In fact 'lying' and 'liars' seem to be your favourite words. Lol.

I know this from reading the biblical scriptures;

1 John 2
4: He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

I can easily see that Christians and atheists don't obey his commandments. If they did, they would only have one true interpretation of what they read in the biblical scriptures.

Now that you have derailed the discussion and want to pretend that you have been misunderstood, perhaps you would like to demonstrate your sincerity by returning to the topic at hand and posting something pertinent, interesting and reasoned. Would that be a thought?

I guess it wouldn't be a thought. Duly noted. : :

Since you used biblical scripture to support your claims that god is either a liar or that there is no afterlife, I will use biblical scriptures to back up my claim that there is an after life. I can't prove to you that god is a liar or not because I have never met god. I've only heard his voice and obeyed all his commandments.

Here's the biblical scriptures to support my claim that there is an afterlife.

Isaiah 43
1: But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.
2: When you pass through the waters I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you.

I Corinthians 3:
13: each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14: If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15: If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Isaiah 25
6: On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wine on the lees well refined.
7: And he will destroy on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations.
8: He will swallow up death for ever, and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth; for the LORD has spoken.
9: It will be said on that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation."

Psalms 22
27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.

The flesh of man is the proud of the earth who cannot keep itself alive. That is well known by us all. Have you ever seen a dead flesh get up from it's grave and live again?

Zephaniah 1
18: Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them on the day of the wrath of the LORD. In the fire of his jealous wrath, all the earth shall be consumed; for a full, yea, sudden end he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

All the inhabitants ( the flesh ) will be destroyed in the fire of god but man will continue on and wake up in new flesh.

Zephaniah 3:
8: "Therefore wait for me," says the LORD, "for the day when I arise as a witness. For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all the heat of my anger; for in the fire of my jealous wrath all the earth shall be consumed.
9: "Yea, at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD and serve him with one accord.

Ezekiel 37:

1: The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; it was full of bones.
2: And he led me round among them; and behold, there were very many upon the valley; and lo, they were very dry.
3: And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, thou knowest."
4: Again he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5: Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live.
6: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the LORD."
dee-em
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7/26/2016 2:23:45 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 4:56:06 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/26/2016 1:10:11 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:49:05 PM, bigotry wrote:

Okay, I retract that. But this is still just splitting hairs. Whether man was created immortal or he was sustained as immortal by daily (?) doses of an immortality drug from the tree of life is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Knowing man wasnt neccesarily immortal easily is consistent with him eating of the tree of knowledge and then the tree of life would have made him physically immortal. This wasnt the plan so the banishment was neccesary.

What plan? I'm sorry but I can't parse what you are saying. Please elaborate.

The plan was never for the flesh of man to live forever. I challenge you or anyone else to find a scripture that would support otherwise.

No, that's not how it works. You are making the claim so the onus is on you to support it.

I'm sorry, what? How does this relate to death and no eternal life?

You asked how we know death was limited to flesh, this was the answer.

That's no answer at all since there is no mention of death.

If we know the flesh was never intended to live forever, then that is the answer.

But we don't know. Sorry, but that is a bizarre and unsupported interpretation you have and now you want to treat it as fact. Nice try.

There wasn't a punishment to give yet because there was nothing to punish.

I beg yours? Are we reading the same book, the Bible? You can't be serious.

Im speaking about before man sinned. That is all.

Why? How is that in any way relevant to the argument I was making?

It is because there wasn't a concept of going to hell prior to the fall because there was no danger of such. After the fall, spiritual death was evident in that a separation from God was now possible and a reality.

Here we go again. So-called "spiritual death" is not scriptural but yet another conjecture which you raised (with no evidence) and now want to sneak in as fact. Again, nice try.

Hell by the way was reserved for the rebellious angels. Man was never supposed to wind up there because as a race it wasn't until the apple incident that man disobeyed God and took the side of sin.

Irrelevant to any point I was making.

Its relevant because a place for spiritual death was establish prior to mans exsistence. Joining into the fold woth rebellious angels put the race in danger of it. Only because there is an afterlife.

What? Where are you getting this from and how does it relate to the clear statement by God that man is to be denied eternal life? Please address the elephant in the room whenever you are ready.

Matthew 25:41 New International Version
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The devil and his angels were around before mankind. Thus the point.

Oh please. This is getting more ridiculous by the minute. I'm not interested in your theories about Hell, which are off-topic. You are still ignoring the elephant in the room, what God explicitly states in Genesis 3.

Well again this is coming from this hypothesis that man was intended to live forever in the garden. We don't have a reason to think that.

We don't? So you think man would have been banished from the garden anyway? Scriptural source for this please.

Lets not forget your whole argument rested upon from dust you came to dust you will go and that the day you eat of this tree you shall surely die. If man didnt die the day he ate of the tree, how does this support your reasoning?

That is indeed a puzzle. However, inconsistencies in the Bible are not my problem and this is another red herring from the issue at hand. Please stay on-topic. The text under discussion is Genesis 3:19-24 where God banishes man from the Garden and explicitly denies him eternal life.

Its actually not much of a puzzle. Man is told in the day he eats of the fruit of this tree, he will surely die. He eats of the tree and in the same day is separated from God thus causing spiritual death.
Man was in the garden, in Gods presence
Then man was not in the garden, not in Gods presence
Man did not die for literally hundreds of years later.
The separation of man from God was mans death spoken about in the referenced scripture.
unless you can show another logical flow of events here, there isn't much else to elaborate on especially considering how your unwilling to accept new testament elaboration on the subject from Jesus himself who is God.

More off-topic musings which have little or no relevancy to the subject at hand. You will talk about everything except God denying man eternal life. Why is that?

Its that man was separated from God, spiritual death. No man wouldnt have been randomly banished, his descendents would have simply carried on. Why else would God tell him to be fruitful and multiply?

Huh? What is spiritual death? How does any of this relate to God denying man eternal life? Besides you are contradicting yourself. If the spirit dies then what goes to heaven?

spiritual death is separation from God and man.

Mere conjecture and not scriptural.

This is the death you referenced.

Nonsense. The death I referenced was man returning to the dust from which he was made and being denied eternal life. You are confused. Read Genesis 3:19-24 again.

If the spirit dies then it does not go to heaven.

Thank you. So no eternal life, right? Man is banished from the Garden and separated from God causing spiritual death (according to you). Therefore, by your own admission, there can be no afterlife if the spirit is dead. You have just painted yourself into a corner.

Can you show any Jewish sources that indicate a different understanding??

A different understanding of what? This is all irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

that separation of God and man cant mean death.

Not interested and still irrelevant.

Genesis 2
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


This seems like a permanent job as caretaker of the garden to me, with only one condition whereby he would be "sacked".

Sure it was a permanent job, until he would physically die...then his sons and daughters would take over.

You miss the point. He wasn't going to physically die whilst he was in the Garden. I have no idea what point you think you are making. Man had the guarantee of eternal life and then lost it. That is what the passage from Genesis 3 is about, right?

if he wasn't going to physically die then why did God banish man because he might eat of the tree of life and live forever?

What? How can you ask such a question? Have you actually read the Bible?
dee-em
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7/26/2016 3:08:16 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 5:04:35 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/26/2016 1:40:36 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:49:05 PM, bigotry wrote:

A really huge blockade to your entire argument is in Genesis 5:21-24 and this is likely what might have happened to man at some point had he not eaten the apple.
"21And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

Nonsense. This is all after the Fall.

Why would that matter in your opinion?

Um, because people started dying after the Fall. Why else? You asserted that this was likely to happen to man anyway. On what scriptural basis do you make that claim? You have none.

Gen 3:22 "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Genesis 3 is the Fall. You do understand that, right?

So where did Enoch go? If theres no such thing as an afterlife then where did God take Enoch after he walked with God?

Oh please. God took him away is a euphemism for death taking him. For every other person mentioned in Genesis 5 it ends with "and then he died". For example:

5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

And yet the hebrew proves you wrong: the word used in the phrase God took him is "la:qua" your point would be correct if this term was ever used in conjunction with physical death but it isnt. It means time and time to take and even to take to be married.
It is used when God takes a rib out of adam (gen 2:22) in 36:2 when Esau takes wives in numbers 12:1 for marriage. I can list about 50 other references where the word is used in conjunction with ownership. This is God taking Enoch because he belonged to him in a special way because he was a very holy man.

I'm not disputing that the word is "take". I'm suggesting that the phrase "took him" is an idiom and a euphemism for dying as evidenced by all the other deaths listed in Genesis 5.

Then it should be easy for you to show this is what the Hebrew means.

I don't need to. Keep reading.

Let's say you are right though and God literally came to Earth and took him. Where did God take him? Nothing in the text states that they went to heaven together. Perhaps God took him and buried him. Who knows? The text is inconclusive.

So what is your conclusion? Where did God likely take him? ........

What possible relevance does any conjecture I make have?

Since you want to play this game of finding contradictory scripture in the Bible (a game I have explicitly stated I don't wish to play as it is counter-productive) try this on for size:

Jesus said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" (John 3:13)

This still holds true, God took Enoch. Enoch didn't take himself there. But its nice to see your willing to accept the NT as an authority now.

Now you are just being deliberately obtuse. I thought we had a good discussion going but your response here shows me that you are not arguing in good faith, if you ever were. What a pity.

If we accept your interpretation that God took Enoch to heaven with him then Jesus lied. You have a choice. Abandon your interpretation or admit that Jesus lied. Which is it?

Does the scripture say Enoch ascended himself into heaven?

No, of course not. That is the entire point. Neither does it say that God took him to heaven. Lol.

Let me assume that you are still going to insist, despite everything, that Enoch was taken to heaven. How does this help you? That makes God a liar in Genesis 3. You can't win.

How so? God didn't la:qah adam anywhere.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Fall only applied to Adam? Perhaps the punishment meted out to the serpent only applied to that single serpent too. Funnily enough I haven't seen any snakes around with legs. Have you?

So again I have to ask where did God take enoch to?

I don't know and neither do you. I can only assume he buried the poor dead sod.

why? because your argument has fallen apart?

No, because the text doesn't tell us and we shouldn't read into the text what isn't there.

Nothing about an afterlife there. Just "he died".

Then show that la:qah means he died.

I don't need to. See above.

yes you do because that's the term that's used. So show me or continue to dodge.

*sigh* I've already explained that I have stronger arguments and don't need to pursue this further. I have also explained that you are focusing on the single word "took" (the translation of which I do not dispute) rather than the idiom "God took him". Yet you accuse me of dodging. It must be projection since it is you doing the dodging on God's clear statement denying man eternal life. I'm still waiting for you to address it despite numerous requests.

I see your bothered with evidence that doesn't go your way. That's your choice not to address it, just again remember it doesn't make your argument look good at all.

Not at all. I can safely ignore contradictory passages. You need to deal with the passage I have highlighted and answer my questions. Are you ever planning to or are you going to continue dodging indefinitely?

Well once again, where did Enoch go and how does la:qah mean death?

So you opt to continue dodging. Understood. You have nothing else obviously.

So you still haven't shown la:qah to mean death of any kind. Nice dodge.

Oh dear. See above.