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Shia Beliefs in the Bible

lightseeker
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7/26/2016 3:16:12 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
A series of lectures outlining the fundamentals beliefs of Shia Islam present in the Bible, using proof-text method. Topics include Imam Hussain (as), Tragedy of Karbala, the Injeel & the event of Ghadeer.

There is only one God.

Psalms 86:10 (Hebrew) atta Elohim levaddekha. For you are great, and do wondrous things: you are God alone.

Isaiah 45:5 (Hebrew) ani YHWH we-en "odh zulathi en elohim: a-azerkha welo yedha"tani. I am the LORD, and there is no other, there is no God beside me: I girded you, though you have not known me.

That one God is just, and the only Saviour.

Isaiah 45:21 (Hebrew) Haggidhu wehaggishu af yiwwa"atzu yakhdaw: mi hishmia" zoth miqqedhem me-az higgidhah halo ani YHWH we-en odh elohim mibbal"adhi el tzaddiq umoshia" ayin zohathi. Tell it, and bring them near; indeed, let them take counsel together: who has declared this from ancient time? who has told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no other God beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

God is not a man or the Son of man.

Numbers 23:19 (Hebrew) lo ish el wikhazzev uven adham weyithnetham: hahu amar welo ya"ase wedhibber welo yeqimenna. God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said so, and shall he not do so? or has he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Notice that according to the text God is not a human being, not "the son of man," not any "person" or "persons" at all, not one person nor three persons.

The Son of man cannot save you.

Psalms 146:3 (Hebrew) al tivtkhu vindhivim: beven adham she-en lo theshu"a. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

God does not change.

pasa dosiv agayh kai pan dwrhma teleion anwyen estin katabainon apo tou patrov twn fwtwn par w ouk eni parallagh h trophv aposkiasma James 1:17 (Greek) pasa dosis agathe kai pan dorema teleion anothen estin katabainon apo tou patros ton foton par o ouk eni parallage e tropes aposkiasma. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

If God does not change, as this Bible passage and several others maintain, then God does not incarnate, since incarnation requires change. God does not change into anything, not even a man.

God reveals His message to humankind through His servants the prophets.

Amos 3:7 (Hebrew) ki lo ya"ase adhonay YHWH davar ki im gala sodho el "avdhaw hannevi-im. Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he will reveal his secret to his servants the prophets.

Many people will not believe the message of God through Muhammad (as).

Psalm 106:24 (Hebrew) wayyim-asu be-eretz Hamda: lo he-eminu lidhvaro. Indeed they despise the land of Muhammad, they do not believe his word.

The biased translator wishes to translate the name Muhammad, thus making "pleasant land" instead of "the land of Muhammad." But this is not possible, because the sentence goes on to say "his word." The possessive pronoun is masculine, showing Hamda to be a proper masculine name, rather than a feminine common noun as the ending might suggest. There are a number of such names in the Bible, feminine in form but masculine in meaning.

God made Abraham (as) a guide for all nations, in the following words spoken to him.

Genesis 12: 3 (Hebrew) wa-avarkha mevarakhekha umqallelkha a-or: wenivrekhu vekha kol mishpekhoth ha-adhama. And I will bless them that bless you, and curse him that curses you: and in you shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Moses (as) prayed for a divinely appointed guide to come after him.

Numbers 27: 16 (Hebrew) Yifqodh YHWH Elohe harokhoth lekhol basar: ish "al ha"edha. asher yetze lifnehem wa-asher yavo lifnehem wa-asher yotzi-em wa-asher yevi-em: welo thiheye "adhath YHWH katz-tzon asher en lahem ro"e. Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation, 17 Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD be not as sheep which have no shepherd.

The principle of a divinely appointed leader goes back earlier than Moses (as), but here we see Moses (as) praying on behalf of one such figure.

Moses (as) invoked the name of Ali (as) in speaking to the Pharaoh.

Exodus 8:5(9) (Hebrew) wayyomer Moshe lefar"o hithpa-er "Ali lemathay a"tir lekha wela"avadhekha ul"ammekha lehakhrith hatzfarde"immimmekha umibbattekha raq baye-or tish-sha-arna. And Moses said to Pharaoh, Glorify Ali: when shall I intreat for you, and for your servants, and for your people, to destroy the frogs from you and your houses, that they may remain in the river only?

The translation which says "Glory over me" simply does not make sense.

The people of Israel sang about Ali (as) as they walked in the wilderness.

Numbers 21:17 (Hebrew) az yashir yisra-el eth hash-shira hazzoth "Ali ve-er "enu lah. Then Israel sang this song, Ali (the Exalted one) is a well (of water); sing to it.

The translation that says "Rise up, O well" only fits a surealistic painting. In reality, wells do not fly.

David (as) prophesied the coming of Islam.

Psalms 29:11 YHWH "oz le"ammo yitten: YHWH yevarekh eth "ammo vash-shalom. The LORD will give strength to his people; the LORD will bless his people with Islam.

The word Islam is cognate with the Hebrew word for "peace." It is the proclamation of reconciliation and peace, not only between God and humankind, but between one nation and another, one family and another, one individual and another. It also reconciles the opposing "parts" into which humankind would divide the impartial God into the one true God without parts and without limitations.

Islam, meaning peace, is peace in every possible sense.

God will forgive those who pray towards His house, according to the petition of Solomon (as).

1 Kings 8:30 (Hebrew) weshama"ta el tekhinnath "avdekha we"ammekha yisra-el asher yithfallu el hammaqom hazze: we-atta tishma" el meqom shivtekha el hash-shamayim weshama"ta wesalakheta. And listen to the supplication of your servant, and of your people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear in heaven your dwelling place: and when you hear, forgive.

Forgiveness depends on the grace of the one true God alone, with nothing added, no sacrifice human or otherwise. It is offered to those who turn in prostration toward Him, repenting and asking forgiveness.

God will take vengeance on the wicked and reward His worshippers on the day of judgement, as He promised Moses (as).

Deuteronomy 32:41-43 (Hebrew) im shannothi beraq kharbi wethokhez bemishpot yadhi: ashiv naqam letzaray we limsan-ay ashallem. ashkir khitz-tzay middam wekharbi tokhal basar: middam khalal weshivya merosh par"oth oyev. harninu ghoyim "ammo ki dham "avadhaw yiqqom: wenaqam yashiv le"atzaw wekhifer adhamatho "ammo.

41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. 42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. 43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

read more
https://www.al-islam.org...
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/26/2016 3:27:14 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 3:16:12 PM, lightseeker wrote:
A series of lectures outlining the fundamentals beliefs of Shia Islam present in the Bible, using proof-text method. Topics include Imam Hussain (as), Tragedy of Karbala, the Injeel & the event of Ghadeer.

There is only one God.

Psalms 86:10 (Hebrew) atta Elohim levaddekha. For you are great, and do wondrous things: you are God alone.

Isaiah 45:5 (Hebrew) ani YHWH we-en "odh zulathi en elohim: a-azerkha welo yedha"tani. I am the LORD, and there is no other, there is no God beside me: I girded you, though you have not known me.

That one God is just, and the only Saviour.

Isaiah 45:21 (Hebrew) Haggidhu wehaggishu af yiwwa"atzu yakhdaw: mi hishmia" zoth miqqedhem me-az higgidhah halo ani YHWH we-en odh elohim mibbal"adhi el tzaddiq umoshia" ayin zohathi. Tell it, and bring them near; indeed, let them take counsel together: who has declared this from ancient time? who has told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no other God beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

God is not a man or the Son of man.

Numbers 23:19 (Hebrew) lo ish el wikhazzev uven adham weyithnetham: hahu amar welo ya"ase wedhibber welo yeqimenna. God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said so, and shall he not do so? or has he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Notice that according to the text God is not a human being, not "the son of man," not any "person" or "persons" at all, not one person nor three persons.

The Son of man cannot save you.

Psalms 146:3 (Hebrew) al tivtkhu vindhivim: beven adham she-en lo theshu"a. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

God does not change.

pasa dosiv agayh kai pan dwrhma teleion anwyen estin katabainon apo tou patrov twn fwtwn par w ouk eni parallagh h trophv aposkiasma James 1:17 (Greek) pasa dosis agathe kai pan dorema teleion anothen estin katabainon apo tou patros ton foton par o ouk eni parallage e tropes aposkiasma. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

If God does not change, as this Bible passage and several others maintain, then God does not incarnate, since incarnation requires change. God does not change into anything, not even a man.

God reveals His message to humankind through His servants the prophets.

Amos 3:7 (Hebrew) ki lo ya"ase adhonay YHWH davar ki im gala sodho el "avdhaw hannevi-im. Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he will reveal his secret to his servants the prophets.

Many people will not believe the message of God through Muhammad (as).

Psalm 106:24 (Hebrew) wayyim-asu be-eretz Hamda: lo he-eminu lidhvaro. Indeed they despise the land of Muhammad, they do not believe his word.

read more
https://www.al-islam.org... : :

Most ideas that inspired the written words of the Quran came from Catholic beliefs that helped Mohammed build his false religion. Mohammed got some revelations from our Creator but he didn't know how to get anyone to listen to him so some Catholic leaders gave him some ideas and their beliefs to help him grow the religion. By building false gods with their human hands according to the influence of the Beast and using Catholic ideas inspired from the Bible, Mohammed and his first followers were able to grow a huge religion called Islam.

Now there are two big false religions that came from Jewish traditions and pagan ideas inspired by Judaism.
lightseeker
Posts: 1,034
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7/26/2016 5:48:26 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Most ideas that inspired the written words of the Quran came from Catholic beliefs that helped Mohammed build his false religion. Mohammed got some revelations from our Creator but he didn't know how to get anyone to listen to him so some Catholic leaders gave him some ideas and their beliefs to help him grow the religion. By building false gods with their human hands according to the influence of the Beast and using Catholic ideas inspired from the Bible, Mohammed and his first followers were able to grow a huge religion called Islam.

Now there are two big false religions that came from Jewish traditions and pagan ideas inspired by Judaism.

" Most ideas that inspired the written words of the Quran came from Catholic beliefs that helped Mohammed build his false religion"

which is your claim and you have to prove it.
but to debunk your claim, I can easily say that

1 - Muhammad didn't have a catholic teacher. no such thing is recorded in history.
2- what we believe about Jesus and Mary, is different from what Christians believe about them, and it's way more logical and makes perfect sense.
3- Muhammad was illiterate and brought a book that no illiterate man can bring. read about some of the miracles of Quran here
http://www.speed-light.info...
4- Quran openly invites all the people of the world, to try and bring a book or even a verse like the verses of Quran. and after 1400 years, not was has been able to. the verse has to be in Arabic. Quran actually invites all the people of the world, to help each other in this task if they can.
5- Muhammad was one man, who became an orphan very early in his life and was barely supported by his tribe. yet the change he caused in Arabia in only 23 years can be considered miracle by itself. read about Arabia before prophethood of Muhammad here:
https://www.al-islam.org...
6- the same God that sent Muhammad, sent Jesus and Moses and Abraham as well. the basic principles of all these religions are the same, yet the specific practices or prayer might differ. so, it's obvious that some of the concepts of Islam is the same as those of Christianity and Judaism. yet Muhammad refined those according to the revelations of Allah and introduced them again to people, as they were introduced by those prophets, before they were changed by people.
7- Bible says have belief and don't think. Islam says think and then have belief. if he was a fraud (like paul) he wouldn't invite people to think about principles of faith and about other things. he'd just say, believe and don't question it.
8- there are recorded miracles from Muhammad, besides Quran. like splitting the moon, talking with stone, moving the tree, reviving the dead ...
9- the beast, is something that would emerge after apocalypse and is just a scale, that shows who's chosen heaven with his own choice, and who's chosen hell. if you think beast helped Muhammad write Quran, you should prove it.
10- Muhammad didn't know how to get people to listen to him? that's absurd. as I said, read about Arabia, before and after Muhammad and you'll realize his influence on people.
Throwback
Posts: 421
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7/27/2016 2:29:20 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 3:16:12 PM, lightseeker wrote:
A series of lectures outlining the fundamentals beliefs of Shia Islam present in the Bible, using proof-text method. Topics include Imam Hussain (as), Tragedy of Karbala, the Injeel & the event of Ghadeer.

There is only one God.

Psalms 86:10 (Hebrew) atta Elohim levaddekha. For you are great, and do wondrous things: you are God alone.

Isaiah 45:5 (Hebrew) ani YHWH we-en "odh zulathi en elohim: a-azerkha welo yedha"tani. I am the LORD, and there is no other, there is no God beside me: I girded you, though you have not known me.

That one God is just, and the only Saviour.

Isaiah 45:21 (Hebrew) Haggidhu wehaggishu af yiwwa"atzu yakhdaw: mi hishmia" zoth miqqedhem me-az higgidhah halo ani YHWH we-en odh elohim mibbal"adhi el tzaddiq umoshia" ayin zohathi. Tell it, and bring them near; indeed, let them take counsel together: who has declared this from ancient time? who has told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no other God beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

God is not a man or the Son of man.

Numbers 23:19 (Hebrew) lo ish el wikhazzev uven adham weyithnetham: hahu amar welo ya"ase wedhibber welo yeqimenna. God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said so, and shall he not do so? or has he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Notice that according to the text God is not a human being, not "the son of man," not any "person" or "persons" at all, not one person nor three persons.

The Son of man cannot save you.

Psalms 146:3 (Hebrew) al tivtkhu vindhivim: beven adham she-en lo theshu"a. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

God does not change.

pasa dosiv agayh kai pan dwrhma teleion anwyen estin katabainon apo tou patrov twn fwtwn par w ouk eni parallagh h trophv aposkiasma James 1:17 (Greek) pasa dosis agathe kai pan dorema teleion anothen estin katabainon apo tou patros ton foton par o ouk eni parallage e tropes aposkiasma. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

If God does not change, as this Bible passage and several others maintain, then God does not incarnate, since incarnation requires change. God does not change into anything, not even a man.

God reveals His message to humankind through His servants the prophets.

Amos 3:7 (Hebrew) ki lo ya"ase adhonay YHWH davar ki im gala sodho el "avdhaw hannevi-im. Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he will reveal his secret to his servants the prophets.

Many people will not believe the message of God through Muhammad (as).

Psalm 106:24 (Hebrew) wayyim-asu be-eretz Hamda: lo he-eminu lidhvaro. Indeed they despise the land of Muhammad, they do not believe his word.

The biased translator wishes to translate the name Muhammad, thus making "pleasant land" instead of "the land of Muhammad." But this is not possible, because the sentence goes on to say "his word." The possessive pronoun is masculine, showing Hamda to be a proper masculine name, rather than a feminine common noun as the ending might suggest. There are a number of such names in the Bible, feminine in form but masculine in meaning.

God made Abraham (as) a guide for all nations, in the following words spoken to him.

Genesis 12: 3 (Hebrew) wa-avarkha mevarakhekha umqallelkha a-or: wenivrekhu vekha kol mishpekhoth ha-adhama. And I will bless them that bless you, and curse him that curses you: and in you shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Moses (as) prayed for a divinely appointed guide to come after him.

Numbers 27: 16 (Hebrew) Yifqodh YHWH Elohe harokhoth lekhol basar: ish "al ha"edha. asher yetze lifnehem wa-asher yavo lifnehem wa-asher yotzi-em wa-asher yevi-em: welo thiheye "adhath YHWH katz-tzon asher en lahem ro"e. Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation, 17 Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD be not as sheep which have no shepherd.

The principle of a divinely appointed leader goes back earlier than Moses (as), but here we see Moses (as) praying on behalf of one such figure.

Moses (as) invoked the name of Ali (as) in speaking to the Pharaoh.

Exodus 8:5(9) (Hebrew) wayyomer Moshe lefar"o hithpa-er "Ali lemathay a"tir lekha wela"avadhekha ul"ammekha lehakhrith hatzfarde"immimmekha umibbattekha raq baye-or tish-sha-arna. And Moses said to Pharaoh, Glorify Ali: when shall I intreat for you, and for your servants, and for your people, to destroy the frogs from you and your houses, that they may remain in the river only?

The translation which says "Glory over me" simply does not make sense.

The people of Israel sang about Ali (as) as they walked in the wilderness.

Numbers 21:17 (Hebrew) az yashir yisra-el eth hash-shira hazzoth "Ali ve-er "enu lah. Then Israel sang this song, Ali (the Exalted one) is a well (of water); sing to it.

The translation that says "Rise up, O well" only fits a surealistic painting. In reality, wells do not fly.

David (as) prophesied the coming of Islam.

Psalms 29:11 YHWH "oz le"ammo yitten: YHWH yevarekh eth "ammo vash-shalom. The LORD will give strength to his people; the LORD will bless his people with Islam.

The word Islam is cognate with the Hebrew word for "peace." It is the proclamation of reconciliation and peace, not only between God and humankind, but between one nation and another, one family and another, one individual and another. It also reconciles the opposing "parts" into which humankind would divide the impartial God into the one true God without parts and without limitations.

Islam, meaning peace, is peace in every possible sense.

God will forgive those who pray towards His house, according to the petition of Solomon (as).

1 Kings 8:30 (Hebrew) weshama"ta el tekhinnath "avdekha we"ammekha yisra-el asher yithfallu el hammaqom hazze: we-atta tishma" el meqom shivtekha el hash-shamayim weshama"ta wesalakheta. And listen to the supplication of your servant, and of your people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear in heaven your dwelling place: and when you hear, forgive.

Forgiveness depends on the grace of the one true God alone, with nothing added, no sacrifice human or otherwise. It is offered to those who turn in prostration toward Him, repenting and asking forgiveness.

God will take vengeance on the wicked and reward His worshippers on the day of judgement, as He promised Moses (as).

Deuteronomy 32:41-43 (Hebrew) im shannothi beraq kharbi wethokhez bemishpot yadhi: ashiv naqam letzaray we limsan-ay ashallem. ashkir khitz-tzay middam wekharbi tokhal basar: middam khalal weshivya merosh par"oth oyev. harninu ghoyim "ammo ki dham "avadhaw yiqqom: wenaqam yashiv le"atzaw wekhifer adhamatho "ammo.

.
You'd make a great communist. Use the faith you reject as a foundation to claim validity for the sick, demented satanic cult espoused by a goat fornicator.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.
lightseeker
Posts: 1,034
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7/27/2016 6:42:08 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
God will forgive those who pray towards His house, according to the petition of Solomon (as).

1 Kings 8:30 (Hebrew) weshama"ta el tekhinnath "avdekha we"ammekha yisra-el asher yithfallu el hammaqom hazze: we-atta tishma" el meqom shivtekha el hash-shamayim weshama"ta wesalakheta. And listen to the supplication of your servant, and of your people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear in heaven your dwelling place: and when you hear, forgive.

Forgiveness depends on the grace of the one true God alone, with nothing added, no sacrifice human or otherwise. It is offered to those who turn in prostration toward Him, repenting and asking forgiveness.

God will take vengeance on the wicked and reward His worshippers on the day of judgement, as He promised Moses (as).

Deuteronomy 32:41-43 (Hebrew) im shannothi beraq kharbi wethokhez bemishpot yadhi: ashiv naqam letzaray we limsan-ay ashallem. ashkir khitz-tzay middam wekharbi tokhal basar: middam khalal weshivya merosh par"oth oyev. harninu ghoyim "ammo ki dham "avadhaw yiqqom: wenaqam yashiv le"atzaw wekhifer adhamatho "ammo.

.
You'd make a great communist. Use the faith you reject as a foundation to claim validity for the sick, demented satanic cult espoused by a goat fornicator.

that statement was moronic and stupid at the same time. Muslims don't reject christian faith. we believe in Jesus as a prophet of God. now it's true that we also believe that bible is changed and it's not exactly what was revealed to Jesus, but that doesn't mean Christianity as a whole is rejected by Muslims. and if you think Muhammad was as you say he was, use your demented satanic head to prove your claims. though you can't. you're just a fraud and a liar.
lightseeker
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7/27/2016 7:12:59 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM, uncung wrote:
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.

it's easy to study Islam a little bit, create a profile, and then say that you're a Muslim, while demonizing Islamic beliefs.

but if you're a real Muslim and not a fake, just tell me what sect are you in, and I'll give you some books to read and understand Shia Islam better.
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/27/2016 12:34:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 5:48:26 PM, lightseeker wrote:
Most ideas that inspired the written words of the Quran came from Catholic beliefs that helped Mohammed build his false religion. Mohammed got some revelations from our Creator but he didn't know how to get anyone to listen to him so some Catholic leaders gave him some ideas and their beliefs to help him grow the religion. By building false gods with their human hands according to the influence of the Beast and using Catholic ideas inspired from the Bible, Mohammed and his first followers were able to grow a huge religion called Islam.

Now there are two big false religions that came from Jewish traditions and pagan ideas inspired by Judaism.

" Most ideas that inspired the written words of the Quran came from Catholic beliefs that helped Mohammed build his false religion"

which is your claim and you have to prove it.
but to debunk your claim, I can easily say that

1 - Muhammad didn't have a catholic teacher. no such thing is recorded in history.
2- what we believe about Jesus and Mary, is different from what Christians believe about them, and it's way more logical and makes perfect sense.
3- Muhammad was illiterate and brought a book that no illiterate man can bring. read about some of the miracles of Quran here
http://www.speed-light.info...
4- Quran openly invites all the people of the world, to try and bring a book or even a verse like the verses of Quran. and after 1400 years, not was has been able to. the verse has to be in Arabic. Quran actually invites all the people of the world, to help each other in this task if they can.
5- Muhammad was one man, who became an orphan very early in his life and was barely supported by his tribe. yet the change he caused in Arabia in only 23 years can be considered miracle by itself. read about Arabia before prophethood of Muhammad here:
https://www.al-islam.org...
6- the same God that sent Muhammad, sent Jesus and Moses and Abraham as well. the basic principles of all these religions are the same, yet the specific practices or prayer might differ. so, it's obvious that some of the concepts of Islam is the same as those of Christianity and Judaism. yet Muhammad refined those according to the revelations of Allah and introduced them again to people, as they were introduced by those prophets, before they were changed by people.
7- Bible says have belief and don't think. Islam says think and then have belief. if he was a fraud (like paul) he wouldn't invite people to think about principles of faith and about other things. he'd just say, believe and don't question it.
8- there are recorded miracles from Muhammad, besides Quran. like splitting the moon, talking with stone, moving the tree, reviving the dead ...
9- the beast, is something that would emerge after apocalypse and is just a scale, that shows who's chosen heaven with his own choice, and who's chosen hell. if you think beast helped Muhammad write Quran, you should prove it.
10- Muhammad didn't know how to get people to listen to him? that's absurd. as I said, read about Arabia, before and after Muhammad and you'll realize his influence on people.

Everything you, me and everyone else writes or speaks can only be believed because these ideas start out as thoughts in the minds of men. You have no proof if these thoughts came from liars or not.
DanneJeRusse
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7/27/2016 12:53:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM, uncung wrote:
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.

You have a lot of hatred towards others, how can you call yourself a peaceful, tolerant Muslim?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
desmac
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7/27/2016 12:58:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM, uncung wrote:
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.

Islam is a religion of peace. Except to its Moslem brothers, apparently.
uncung
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7/27/2016 2:37:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/27/2016 12:53:09 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM, uncung wrote:
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.

You have a lot of hatred towards others, how can you call yourself a peaceful, tolerant Muslim?

I am no longer a peaceful muslim.
lightseeker
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7/28/2016 1:31:48 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/27/2016 12:34:22 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/26/2016 5:48:26 PM, lightseeker wrote:
Most ideas that inspired the written words of the Quran came from Catholic beliefs that helped Mohammed build his false religion. Mohammed got some revelations from our Creator but he didn't know how to get anyone to listen to him so some Catholic leaders gave him some ideas and their beliefs to help him grow the religion. By building false gods with their human hands according to the influence of the Beast and using Catholic ideas inspired from the Bible, Mohammed and his first followers were able to grow a huge religion called Islam.

Now there are two big false religions that came from Jewish traditions and pagan ideas inspired by Judaism.

" Most ideas that inspired the written words of the Quran came from Catholic beliefs that helped Mohammed build his false religion"

which is your claim and you have to prove it.
but to debunk your claim, I can easily say that

1 - Muhammad didn't have a catholic teacher. no such thing is recorded in history.
2- what we believe about Jesus and Mary, is different from what Christians believe about them, and it's way more logical and makes perfect sense.
3- Muhammad was illiterate and brought a book that no illiterate man can bring. read about some of the miracles of Quran here
http://www.speed-light.info...
4- Quran openly invites all the people of the world, to try and bring a book or even a verse like the verses of Quran. and after 1400 years, not was has been able to. the verse has to be in Arabic. Quran actually invites all the people of the world, to help each other in this task if they can.
5- Muhammad was one man, who became an orphan very early in his life and was barely supported by his tribe. yet the change he caused in Arabia in only 23 years can be considered miracle by itself. read about Arabia before prophethood of Muhammad here:
https://www.al-islam.org...
6- the same God that sent Muhammad, sent Jesus and Moses and Abraham as well. the basic principles of all these religions are the same, yet the specific practices or prayer might differ. so, it's obvious that some of the concepts of Islam is the same as those of Christianity and Judaism. yet Muhammad refined those according to the revelations of Allah and introduced them again to people, as they were introduced by those prophets, before they were changed by people.
7- Bible says have belief and don't think. Islam says think and then have belief. if he was a fraud (like paul) he wouldn't invite people to think about principles of faith and about other things. he'd just say, believe and don't question it.
8- there are recorded miracles from Muhammad, besides Quran. like splitting the moon, talking with stone, moving the tree, reviving the dead ...
9- the beast, is something that would emerge after apocalypse and is just a scale, that shows who's chosen heaven with his own choice, and who's chosen hell. if you think beast helped Muhammad write Quran, you should prove it.
10- Muhammad didn't know how to get people to listen to him? that's absurd. as I said, read about Arabia, before and after Muhammad and you'll realize his influence on people.

Everything you, me and everyone else writes or speaks can only be believed because these ideas start out as thoughts in the minds of men. You have no proof if these thoughts came from liars or not.

check the links for proof.
lightseeker
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7/28/2016 1:32:34 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/27/2016 2:37:48 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/27/2016 12:53:09 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM, uncung wrote:
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.

You have a lot of hatred towards others, how can you call yourself a peaceful, tolerant Muslim?


I am no longer a peaceful muslim.

you didn't answer my question. what sect are you in?
lightseeker
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7/28/2016 1:37:20 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/27/2016 12:58:18 PM, desmac wrote:
At 7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM, uncung wrote:
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.

Islam is a religion of peace. Except to its Moslem brothers, apparently.

newer sects that are founded or supported by US or Israel or Britain, like Wahhabism and Baha'i faith believe that killing Shia Muslims is a good deed.
bigotry
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7/28/2016 2:48:01 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 5:48:26 PM, lightseeker wrote:
Most ideas that inspired the written words of the Quran came from Catholic beliefs that helped Mohammed build his false religion. Mohammed got some revelations from our Creator but he didn't know how to get anyone to listen to him so some Catholic leaders gave him some ideas and their beliefs to help him grow the religion. By building false gods with their human hands according to the influence of the Beast and using Catholic ideas inspired from the Bible, Mohammed and his first followers were able to grow a huge religion called Islam.

Now there are two big false religions that came from Jewish traditions and pagan ideas inspired by Judaism.

" Most ideas that inspired the written words of the Quran came from Catholic beliefs that helped Mohammed build his false religion"

which is your claim and you have to prove it.
but to debunk your claim, I can easily say that

1 - Muhammad didn't have a catholic teacher. no such thing is recorded in history.
No but he certainly borrowed from the Jews:
Sura 5:27-32
"That is why we laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be deemed as though he had killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be deemed as though he had saved all mankind.".

We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, 'The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth' (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race." Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5
This is a clear copy of a Rabbis commentary on the Torah...
Not only did this Rabis commentary get it wrong, but since Muhammed had no OT to reference, he couldn't have known that only one life was shed in that incident.

Sura 21:51-71
We formerly bestowed guidance on Abraham, for We knew him well. He said to his father and to his people: "What are these images to which you are so devoted?" They replied: "They are the gods our fathers worshipped." He said: "Then you are your fathers are in the grossest error." "Is this the truth that you are preaching," they asked, "or is this but a jest?" "Indeed," he answered, "Your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. It was He that made them: to this I bear witness. By the Lord, I will overthrow your idols as soon as you have turned your backs." He broke them all in pieces, except their supreme god, so that they might return to him. "Who has done this to our deities?" asked some. "He must surely be a wicked man." Others replied: "We have heard a youth called Abraham speak of them." They said: "then bring him here in sight of all the people, that they may act as witnesses." "Abraham," they said, "was it you who did this to our deities?" "No," he replied. "It was their chief who smote them. Ask them, if they can speak." Thereupon they turned their thoughts upon themselves and said to each other: "Surely you are the ones who have done wrong." [Confounded as they were, they said to Abraham:] "You know they cannot speak." He answered: "Would you then worship that, instead of God, which can neither help nor harm you? Shame on you and on your idols! Have you no sense?" They cried: "Burn him and avenge your gods, if you must punish him!" "Fire," We said, "be cool to Abraham and keep him safe."

Mishnah Rabbah, Genesis (Noach) (CH 38:11-13) Vol. 1, pp. 310 -311, Soncino Edition, Soncino Press London, Editors Dr H Freedman and Maurice Simon.
13. AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS FATHER TERAH (XI,28). R Hiyya said: Terah was a manufacturer of idols. He once went away somewhere and left Abraham to sell them in his place. A man came and wished to buy one. 'How old are you?' Abraham asked him 'Fifty years' was the reply 'Woe to such a man!' he exclaimed. 'You are fifty years old and would worship a day old object!' At this he became ashamed and departed.
On another occasion a woman came with a plateful of flour and requested him, 'Take this and offer it to them.' So he took a stick and broke them and put the stick in the hand of the largest. When his father returned he demanded, 'What have you done to them?' 'I cannot concealed it from you' he rejoined. "A woman came with a plateful of fine meal and requested me to offer it to them. One claimed 'I must eat first' while another claimed 'I must eat first'. Thereupon the largest arose, took the stick, and broke them." 'Why do you make sport of me' he cried out; 'have they any knowledge!' 'Should not your ears listen to what your mouth is saying' he retorted. Thereupon he seized him and delivered him to Nimrod.

'Let us worship fire' he (Nimrod) proposed. 'Let us rather worship water', which extinguishes the fire' replied he. 'Then let us worship water!' ' Let us rather worship the clouds which bear the water.' 'The let us worship the clouds!' 'Let us rather worship the winds which disperse the clouds' 'Let us worship the wind!' 'Let us worship human beings, who withstand the wind' 'You are just bandying words' he exclaimed; 'We will worship naught but fire. Behold, I will cast you into it, and let the God whom you adore come and save you from it.

Now Haran was standing there undecided. If Abram is victorious, (he thought), I will say that I am of Abram's belief, while if Nimrod is victorious I will say that I am on Nimrod's side. When Abram descended into the fiery furnace and was saved, he (Nimrod) asked him, 'of whose belief are you?' 'Of Abram's' he replied. Thereupon he seized and cast him into the fire; his inwards were scorched and he died in his father's presence. Hence it is written, AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ('AL PENE) HIS FATHER TERAH.
bigotry
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7/28/2016 2:56:28 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Quran - Sura 19 - "Mary", verses 28 - 33

Carrying the child, she came to her people, who said to her: 'Mary, this is indeed a strange thing! Sister of Aaron, your father was never a whore-monger, nor was your mother a harlot.'

She made a sign to them, pointing to the child. But they replied: 'How can we speak with a babe in the cradle?'

Whereupon he spoke and said: 'I am the servant of God. He has given me the Book and ordained me a prophet. His blessing is upon me wherever I go, and He has exhorted me to be steadfast in prayer and to give alms as long as I shall live. He has exhorted me to honor my mother and has purged me of vanity and wickedness. Blessed was I on the day I was born, and blessed I shall be on the day of my death and on the day I shall be raised to life.'

compare with
The Arabic Infancy Gospel:
"We find what follows in the book of Joseph the high priest, who lived in the time of Christ. Some say that he is Caiaphas. He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world."

More copying:
From Sura 19 - Mary: verses 22 -26

Thereupon she conceived him, and retired to a far-off place. And when she felt the throes of childbirth she lay down by the trunk of a palm-tree, crying: 'Oh, would that I had died and passed into oblivion!'

But a voice from below cried out to her: 'Do not despair. Your Lord has provided a brook that runs at your feet, and if you shake the trunk of this palm-tree it will drop fresh ripe dates in your lap. Therefore eat and drink and rejoice; and should you meet any mortal say to him: "I have vowed a fast to the Merciful and will not speak with any man today."'

From Sura 23 - The Believers, verse 50:
We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign to mankind, and gave them a shelter on a peaceful hillside watered by a fresh spring.

"New Testament Apocrypha", by E. Hennecke, edited by Schneemelcher, published by WJKP, page 463.
Now on the third day of their journey, as they went on, it happened that blessed Mary was wearied by the too great heat of the sun in the desert, and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: "I should like to rest a little in the shade of this tree." And Joseph led her quickly to the palm and let her dismount from her animal . And when blessed Mary had sat down she looked up at the top of the palm tree and saw that it was full of fruits, and said to Joseph: "I wish someone could fetch some of these fruits of the palm tree." And Joseph said to her: "I wonder that you say this; for you see how high this palm tree is, and (I wonder ) that you even think about eating of the fruits of the palm. I think rather of the lack of water, which already fails us n the skins, and we have nothing with which we can re-fresh ourselves and the animals."

Then the child Jesus, who was sitting with a happy countenance in his mother's lap, said to the palm: "Bend down your branches, O Tree and refresh my mother with your fruit." And immediately at this command the palm bent its head down to the feet of blessed Mary, and they gathered from it fruits with which they all refreshed themselves.....Then Jesus said to it: "Raise yourself, O palm .....and let the waters flow so that we may quench our thirst from it." And immediately it raised itself, and there began to gush out by its root a fountain of water very clear, fresh and completely bright.

From Sura 3 - The Imrans, verse 49: (also refer to 5:110, 111)
.....He will say: "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breathe into it and, by God's leave, it shall become a living bird.....

"The Infancy Gospel of Thomas"
"The child Jesus, when 5 years of age, was playing on the road by a dirty stream of running water; and having brought it all together into ditches, immediately made it pure and clean; by saying a single word. Then having moistened some earth, he made of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath day when he did these things. There were many other children playing with him. Now a Jew, seeing what Jesus did, that he was playing on the Sabbath day, went his way to (Jesus') father Joseph. He said, "Behold, your son is at the stream of dirty water, and having taken up some mud, has made of it twelve sparrows, thus desecrating the Sabbath. On this Joseph went to the spot, and cried out, "Why did you do these things on the Sabbath day which it is not lawful to do?" Jesus then clapped his hands at the sparrows and cried aloud to them, "Go off!". So they, clucking, flew away. The Jews seeing it were astonished, and went and told their rulers what they had seen Jesus do."
lightseeker
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7/28/2016 5:13:06 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
1 - Muhammad didn't have a catholic teacher. no such thing is recorded in history.
No but he certainly borrowed from the Jews:
Sura 5:27-32
"That is why we laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be deemed as though he had killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be deemed as though he had saved all mankind.".

We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, 'The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth' (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race." Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5
This is a clear copy of a Rabbis commentary on the Torah...
Not only did this Rabis commentary get it wrong, but since Muhammed had no OT to reference, he couldn't have known that only one life was shed in that incident.
well you say Muhammad borrowed from Judaism. that's your claim. Muhammad didn't have any Jewish teacher. he was illiterate. also gen Gen. 4:10 says: What have you done? Listen! Your brother"s blood cries out to me from the ground.
https://www.biblegateway.com...
and the argument is that since we're all alike in being human, killing one of us unjustly, is like killing all of us. or that since we're all created from one pair of man and woman, killing one would equal to killing all. there might be other interpretations but things that come to mind right now are these.
and Quran was sent, by the same God who sent Bible and Torah, so their principles are similar. and the stories of prophets and incidents are also similar.

Sura 21:51-71
We formerly bestowed guidance on Abraham, for We knew him well. He said to his father and to his people: "What are these images to which you are so devoted?" They replied: "They are the gods our fathers worshipped." He said: "Then you are your fathers are in the grossest error." "Is this the truth that you are preaching," they asked, "or is this but a jest?" "Indeed," he answered, "Your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. It was He that made them: to this I bear witness. By the Lord, I will overthrow your idols as soon as you have turned your backs." He broke them all in pieces, except their supreme god, so that they might return to him. "Who has done this to our deities?" asked some. "He must surely be a wicked man." Others replied: "We have heard a youth called Abraham speak of them." They said: "then bring him here in sight of all the people, that they may act as witnesses." "Abraham," they said, "was it you who did this to our deities?" "No," he replied. "It was their chief who smote them. Ask them, if they can speak." Thereupon they turned their thoughts upon themselves and said to each other: "Surely you are the ones who have done wrong." [Confounded as they were, they said to Abraham:] "You know they cannot speak." He answered: "Would you then worship that, instead of God, which can neither help nor harm you? Shame on you and on your idols! Have you no sense?" They cried: "Burn him and avenge your gods, if you must punish him!" "Fire," We said, "be cool to Abraham and keep him safe."

Mishnah Rabbah, Genesis (Noach) (CH 38:11-13) Vol. 1, pp. 310 -311, Soncino Edition, Soncino Press London, Editors Dr H Freedman and Maurice Simon.
13. AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS FATHER TERAH (XI,28). R Hiyya said: Terah was a manufacturer of idols. He once went away somewhere and left Abraham to sell them in his place. A man came and wished to buy one. 'How old are you?' Abraham asked him 'Fifty years' was the reply 'Woe to such a man!' he exclaimed. 'You are fifty years old and would worship a day old object!' At this he became ashamed and departed.
On another occasion a woman came with a plateful of flour and requested him, 'Take this and offer it to them.' So he took a stick and broke them and put the stick in the hand of the largest. When his father returned he demanded, 'What have you done to them?' 'I cannot concealed it from you' he rejoined. "A woman came with a plateful of fine meal and requested me to offer it to them. One claimed 'I must eat first' while another claimed 'I must eat first'. Thereupon the largest arose, took the stick, and broke them." 'Why do you make sport of me' he cried out; 'have they any knowledge!' 'Should not your ears listen to what your mouth is saying' he retorted. Thereupon he seized him and delivered him to Nimrod.

'Let us worship fire' he (Nimrod) proposed. 'Let us rather worship water', which extinguishes the fire' replied he. 'Then let us worship water!' ' Let us rather worship the clouds which bear the water.' 'The let us worship the clouds!' 'Let us rather worship the winds which disperse the clouds' 'Let us worship the wind!' 'Let us worship human beings, who withstand the wind' 'You are just bandying words' he exclaimed; 'We will worship naught but fire. Behold, I will cast you into it, and let the God whom you adore come and save you from it.

Now Haran was standing there undecided. If Abram is victorious, (he thought), I will say that I am of Abram's belief, while if Nimrod is victorious I will say that I am on Nimrod's side. When Abram descended into the fiery furnace and was saved, he (Nimrod) asked him, 'of whose belief are you?' 'Of Abram's' he replied. Thereupon he seized and cast him into the fire; his inwards were scorched and he died in his father's presence. Hence it is written, AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ('AL PENE) HIS FATHER TERAH.

and the point of all that was? please be succinct
bigotry
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7/28/2016 5:35:17 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/28/2016 5:13:06 AM, lightseeker wrote:
1 - Muhammad didn't have a catholic teacher. no such thing is recorded in history.
No but he certainly borrowed from the Jews:
Sura 5:27-32
"That is why we laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be deemed as though he had killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be deemed as though he had saved all mankind.".

We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, 'The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth' (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race." Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5
This is a clear copy of a Rabbis commentary on the Torah...
Not only did this Rabis commentary get it wrong, but since Muhammed had no OT to reference, he couldn't have known that only one life was shed in that incident.
well you say Muhammad borrowed from Judaism. that's your claim. Muhammad didn't have any Jewish teacher. he was illiterate. also gen Gen. 4:10 says: What have you done? Listen! Your brother"s blood cries out to me from the ground.
https://www.biblegateway.com...
and the argument is that since we're all alike in being human, killing one of us unjustly, is like killing all of us. or that since we're all created from one pair of man and woman, killing one would equal to killing all. there might be other interpretations but things that come to mind right now are these.
and Quran was sent, by the same God who sent Bible and Torah, so their principles are similar. and the stories of prophets and incidents are also similar.

The point is that Muhammed drew from things that he heard in Medina where there was a large Jewish population he later chose to wipe out. Also you can tell Mohammed is not getting a consistent message because this isn't an old testament message at all. It is something that a Rabbi wrote in the Mishnah.

Sura 21:51-71
We formerly bestowed guidance on Abraham, for We knew him well. He said to his father and to his people: "What are these images to which you are so devoted?" They replied: "They are the gods our fathers worshipped." He said: "Then you are your fathers are in the grossest error." "Is this the truth that you are preaching," they asked, "or is this but a jest?" "Indeed," he answered, "Your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. It was He that made them: to this I bear witness. By the Lord, I will overthrow your idols as soon as you have turned your backs." He broke them all in pieces, except their supreme god, so that they might return to him. "Who has done this to our deities?" asked some. "He must surely be a wicked man." Others replied: "We have heard a youth called Abraham speak of them." They said: "then bring him here in sight of all the people, that they may act as witnesses." "Abraham," they said, "was it you who did this to our deities?" "No," he replied. "It was their chief who smote them. Ask them, if they can speak." Thereupon they turned their thoughts upon themselves and said to each other: "Surely you are the ones who have done wrong." [Confounded as they were, they said to Abraham:] "You know they cannot speak." He answered: "Would you then worship that, instead of God, which can neither help nor harm you? Shame on you and on your idols! Have you no sense?" They cried: "Burn him and avenge your gods, if you must punish him!" "Fire," We said, "be cool to Abraham and keep him safe."

Mishnah Rabbah, Genesis (Noach) (CH 38:11-13) Vol. 1, pp. 310 -311, Soncino Edition, Soncino Press London, Editors Dr H Freedman and Maurice Simon.
13. AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS FATHER TERAH (XI,28). R Hiyya said: Terah was a manufacturer of idols. He once went away somewhere and left Abraham to sell them in his place. A man came and wished to buy one. 'How old are you?' Abraham asked him 'Fifty years' was the reply 'Woe to such a man!' he exclaimed. 'You are fifty years old and would worship a day old object!' At this he became ashamed and departed.
On another occasion a woman came with a plateful of flour and requested him, 'Take this and offer it to them.' So he took a stick and broke them and put the stick in the hand of the largest. When his father returned he demanded, 'What have you done to them?' 'I cannot concealed it from you' he rejoined. "A woman came with a plateful of fine meal and requested me to offer it to them. One claimed 'I must eat first' while another claimed 'I must eat first'. Thereupon the largest arose, took the stick, and broke them." 'Why do you make sport of me' he cried out; 'have they any knowledge!' 'Should not your ears listen to what your mouth is saying' he retorted. Thereupon he seized him and delivered him to Nimrod.

'Let us worship fire' he (Nimrod) proposed. 'Let us rather worship water', which extinguishes the fire' replied he. 'Then let us worship water!' ' Let us rather worship the clouds which bear the water.' 'The let us worship the clouds!' 'Let us rather worship the winds which disperse the clouds' 'Let us worship the wind!' 'Let us worship human beings, who withstand the wind' 'You are just bandying words' he exclaimed; 'We will worship naught but fire. Behold, I will cast you into it, and let the God whom you adore come and save you from it.

Now Haran was standing there undecided. If Abram is victorious, (he thought), I will say that I am of Abram's belief, while if Nimrod is victorious I will say that I am on Nimrod's side. When Abram descended into the fiery furnace and was saved, he (Nimrod) asked him, 'of whose belief are you?' 'Of Abram's' he replied. Thereupon he seized and cast him into the fire; his inwards were scorched and he died in his father's presence. Hence it is written, AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ('AL PENE) HIS FATHER TERAH.

and the point of all that was? please be succinct
That Mohammed based everything on things he heard from Jews in Medina. If he had known the OT he would have had his stories straight but unfortunately he didn't.
Mohammed is not found in the OT and he is not found in the NT. He relied on being some carrier of a torch for which there was none to be had. This is also why many verses in the Qur'an contradict those already established in the OT and NT.
Its impossible to think God would contradict himself and this is why we are warned in the NT this:
2 Corinthians 11:1-4
Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly"and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity[a] that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted"you may well put up with it!
lightseeker
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7/28/2016 6:20:37 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/28/2016 5:35:17 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/28/2016 5:13:06 AM, lightseeker wrote:
1 - Muhammad didn't have a catholic teacher. no such thing is recorded in history.
No but he certainly borrowed from the Jews:
Sura 5:27-32
"That is why we laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be deemed as though he had killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be deemed as though he had saved all mankind.".


https://www.biblegateway.com...
and the argument is that since we're all alike in being human, killing one of us unjustly, is like killing all of us. or that since we're all created from one pair of man and woman, killing one would equal to killing all. there might be other interpretations but things that come to mind right now are these.
and Quran was sent, by the same God who sent Bible and Torah, so their principles are similar. and the stories of prophets and incidents are also similar.


Now Haran was standing there undecided. If Abram is victorious, (he thought), I will say that I am of Abram's belief, while if Nimrod is victorious I will say that I am on Nimrod's side. When Abram descended into the fiery furnace and was saved, he (Nimrod) asked him, 'of whose belief are you?' 'Of Abram's' he replied. Thereupon he seized and cast him into the fire; his inwards were scorched and he died in his father's presence. Hence it is written, AND HARAN DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ('AL PENE) HIS FATHER TERAH.

and the point of all that was? please be succinct
That Mohammed based everything on things he heard from Jews in Medina. If he had known the OT he would have had his stories straight but unfortunately he didn't.
Mohammed is not found in the OT and he is not found in the NT. He relied on being some carrier of a torch for which there was none to be had. This is also why many verses in the Qur'an contradict those already established in the OT and NT.
Its impossible to think God would contradict himself and this is why we are warned in the NT this:
2 Corinthians 11:1-4
Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly"and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity[a] that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted"you may well put up with it!
you should be able to prove it. it that were true, all of things in Quran should've been exactly similar to the things in Torah or Bible. also, think of a way to counter the divine style of Quran which is not copyable and no one has been able to bring a verse like one of the verses of Quran. also, think of a way to explain the numerical miracles of Quran. also a way to explain the prophecy about defeat of Persians from Romans that exists in Quran, creation of planets and stars from Nebula. water on earth coming from space, ....
lightseeker
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7/28/2016 6:31:37 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/28/2016 5:35:17 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 7/28/2016 5:13:06 AM, lightseeker wrote:
1 - Muhammad didn't have a catholic teacher. no such thing is recorded in history.
No but he certainly borrowed from the Jews:
Sura 5:27-32
"That is why we laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be deemed as though he had killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be deemed as though he had saved all mankind.".

We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, 'The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth' (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race." Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5
This is a clear copy of a Rabbis commentary on the Torah...
Not only did this Rabis commentary get it wrong, but since Muhammed had no OT to reference, he couldn't have known that only one life was shed in that incident.
well you say Muhammad borrowed from Judaism. that's your claim. Muhammad didn't have any Jewish teacher. he was illiterate. also gen Gen. 4:10 says: What have you done? Listen! Your brother"s blood cries out to me from the ground.
https://www.biblegateway.com...
and the argument is that since we're all alike in being human, killing one of us unjustly, is like killing all of us. or that since we're all created from one pair of man and woman, killing one would equal to killing all. there might be other interpretations but things that come to mind right now are these.
and Quran was sent, by the same God who sent Bible and Torah, so their principles are similar. and the stories of prophets and incidents are also similar.

The point is that Muhammed drew from things that he heard in Medina where there was a large Jewish population he later chose to wipe out. Also you can tell Mohammed is not getting a consistent message because this isn't an old testament message at all. It is something that a Rabbi wrote in the Mishnah.

Muhammad was illiterate. and Jews lived outside of Medina, and Jews were very secretive about their teachings and didn't teach it to other people. and Muhammad didn't wipe them out. he just forced them to move after their attacks on Muslims. it's always the same with Jews, they attack and draw blood, and when they're countered they shout "justice" and say that they're being oppressed. like Ester, who order the massacre of tens of thousands of people after Marrying Xerxes. and after that, those Jews who had a royal supporter now, attacked and killed more than 500,000 thousand Persians. Persians still go out in the 13th day of the spring to repel the ominousness of that day of massacre. and Jews celebrate that incident in Purim. you see, many of them are demented.
Omniverse
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7/28/2016 8:47:24 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
One can't help but notice the lovely irony in labelling Shia beliefs that allegedly are present in a religious text that precedes said creed by several centuries...
uncung
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7/28/2016 8:50:54 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/28/2016 1:32:34 AM, lightseeker wrote:
At 7/27/2016 2:37:48 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/27/2016 12:53:09 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM, uncung wrote:
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.

You have a lot of hatred towards others, how can you call yourself a peaceful, tolerant Muslim?


I am no longer a peaceful muslim.

you didn't answer my question. what sect are you in?

I don't have a sect, or at least I don't tend to any sect.
lightseeker
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7/28/2016 9:18:35 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/28/2016 8:47:24 AM, Omniverse wrote:
One can't help but notice the lovely irony in labelling Shia beliefs that allegedly are present in a religious text that precedes said creed by several centuries...

you feel Irony about it, because you're comparing my words, with your limited knowledge about Islam. Shia Islam existed during the time of Muhammad. he'd said to Ali that you and your followers (shias) are the prosperous ones in the day of judgement. prophet of Islam actually had ordered Muslims to follow Ali after his death, on more than one occasion. those who were true followers of Imams, were always known as Shias and were the best people of their times. want proof about Shia Islam existing during the life of Muhammad, read this book:

https://www.al-islam.org...
lightseeker
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7/28/2016 9:20:42 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/28/2016 8:50:54 AM, uncung wrote:
At 7/28/2016 1:32:34 AM, lightseeker wrote:
At 7/27/2016 2:37:48 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/27/2016 12:53:09 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM, uncung wrote:
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.

You have a lot of hatred towards others, how can you call yourself a peaceful, tolerant Muslim?


I am no longer a peaceful muslim.

you didn't answer my question. what sect are you in?

I don't have a sect, or at least I don't tend to any sect.

you don't have a sect?! then how do you know that you're a true Muslim? why are you a Muslim to begin with?
lightseeker
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7/28/2016 9:27:39 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/28/2016 9:20:25 AM, Omniverse wrote:
Lightseeker didn't even get what I wrote....
Ok!

with all different opinions flying around, it's hard to zoom in on what people are thinking. if you mean Shia beliefs existing in the bible or Torah, then I say that all great prophets knew the name of Muhammad and Imams. it was revealed to them by God. also those names existed in the books they brought. Muhammad's characteristics were so evident in the true bible that his first wife, after seeing him accidentally and remembering those attributes mentioned in the bible, realized that he would be the last prophet, and asked his hand in marriage, even though Muhammad was a poor young man and basically an orphan at the time, and she was the wealthiest woman in Arabia.
uncung
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7/28/2016 11:12:05 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/28/2016 9:20:42 AM, lightseeker wrote:
At 7/28/2016 8:50:54 AM, uncung wrote:
At 7/28/2016 1:32:34 AM, lightseeker wrote:
At 7/27/2016 2:37:48 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/27/2016 12:53:09 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM, uncung wrote:
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.

You have a lot of hatred towards others, how can you call yourself a peaceful, tolerant Muslim?


I am no longer a peaceful muslim.

you didn't answer my question. what sect are you in?

I don't have a sect, or at least I don't tend to any sect.

you don't have a sect?! then how do you know that you're a true Muslim? why are you a Muslim to begin with?

I am not a true muslim either.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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7/28/2016 12:36:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/27/2016 2:37:48 PM, uncung wrote:
At 7/27/2016 12:53:09 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/27/2016 4:07:19 AM, uncung wrote:
I apologize, I have to tell that I am a shia hater. I hope you don't ask me why. In many forums or religious sections I constantly announce my hatred upon shia community. Till now, I hardly hide my strong feeling on shia.

You have a lot of hatred towards others, how can you call yourself a peaceful, tolerant Muslim?


I am no longer a peaceful muslim.

You, and many other so-called Muslims.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth