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Religion vs. Spirituality

Ren
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12/30/2010 10:00:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well.

I was just about to rejoin the ranting threads about atheists vs. Christians, when I suddenly realized that my stance was becoming insincere. Allow me to explain.

Whereas I consider myself a Christian, my religion is a point of reference. I do not consider it any more valid than any other religion (save for a handful), nor do I consider my religion infallible or immutable. In fact, quite the opposite.

To be more accurate, I consider myself "spiritual," but explanations to render this comprehensible are just tiresome unless I'm willing to engage a full blown conversation about it. Suffice to say that during introductions, I limit my identity to "a Christian."

I do actually understand and in many ways, agree with the intimations of some of the atheists on this site, but I do not believe that their perspectives should limit to Christianity. Because this country is majority Christian, but it remains disestablishmentarian, it simply comes off as iconoclastic. I also believe that there's a distinction between religion and spirituality that no one is taking under consideration. Whereas Bible-thumping morons are essentially synonymous with people who demand respect while asserting that morality is subjective, I find that Bible-thumpers are the minority, and many Christians are more spiritual than religious.

Marx was right when he averred that religion is a means to control the masses akin to drugs. However, a religion is an indoctrinated, bureaucratic social organization; therefore, it's almost a redundant point. Alternately, spirituality is something different entirely and can almost be irrelevant to religion, aside as a moral foundation.

When you atheists disagree with "religion," it comes off as a general dismissal of a very broad concept that just screams misleading generalization. When you reject Christianity, it comes off as embitterment. Would you be willing to reconsider your stance with spirituality under consideration? Do you consider spirituality and religion distinct or synonymous? Do you feel that there is any benefit to either, or that any conception of metaphysics should be outright expunged? I'm eager to know. :)

Thanks.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/30/2010 10:11:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:00:23 AM, Ren wrote:
I try to play the line, and have it both ways...

but instead just don't end up saying anything.

mmm...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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12/30/2010 10:21:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:00:23 AM, Ren wrote:
When you atheists disagree with "religion," it comes off as a general dismissal of a very broad concept that just screams misleading generalization. When you reject Christianity, it comes off as embitterment. Would you be willing to reconsider your stance with spirituality under consideration? Do you consider spirituality and religion distinct or synonymous?

Though You didn't really explain Your beliefs at all.. I suppose people who claim "spirituality" usually are convinced that there exists some kind of Important Supernatural phenomenon.. souls.. or whatever.. goin on.. that is most important

people who are "religious" are simply more specific/detailed in there beliefs..

the lack of justification is the same.. even if that deficiency is more striking in the latter case.

Do you feel that there is any benefit to either, or that any conception of metaphysics should be outright expunged? I'm eager to know. :)

Thanks.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/30/2010 10:22:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:21:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Do you feel that there is any benefit to either, or that any conception of metaphysics should be outright expunged? I'm eager to know. :)

metaphysics is silly.

Thanks.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/30/2010 10:27:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:22:57 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:21:45 AM, ***Ren*** wrote:
Do you feel that there is any benefit to either, or that any conception of metaphysics should be outright expunged? I'm eager to know. :)

metaphysics is silly.

Thanks.

***oops! mis-appropriated your quote!...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/30/2010 10:28:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:22:57 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:21:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Do you feel that there is any benefit to either, or that any conception of metaphysics should be outright expunged? I'm eager to know. :)

metaphysics is silly.

at least when you get into details..

and start coming up with systems that lie Beyond that which is apparent.

Thanks.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/30/2010 10:30:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:21:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:00:23 AM, Ren wrote:
When you atheists disagree with "religion," it comes off as a general dismissal of a very broad concept that just screams misleading generalization. When you reject Christianity, it comes off as embitterment. Would you be willing to reconsider your stance with spirituality under consideration? Do you consider spirituality and religion distinct or synonymous?

Though You didn't really explain Your beliefs at all..

You're right, I didn't. But, my beliefs are not the point of this post. Would you like to know?

I suppose people who claim "spirituality" usually are convinced that there exists some kind of Important Supernatural phenomenon.. souls.. or whatever.. goin on.. that is most important

Well, I suppose that could be a part of it...

people who are "religious" are simply more specific/detailed in there beliefs..

Ehh, no, I wouldn't quite say it's that simple. At all. I'm asserting that religion and spirituality are two entirely different things, although they coincide. In other words, humans are social and politics are a manifestation of the overall human social system, but politics =/= society.

the lack of justification is the same.. even if that deficiency is more striking in the latter case.

Lack of justification? Explain.

Do you feel that there is any benefit to either, or that any conception of metaphysics should be outright expunged? I'm eager to know. :)

...?
Ren
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12/30/2010 10:31:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:28:26 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:22:57 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:21:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Do you feel that there is any benefit to either, or that any conception of metaphysics should be outright expunged? I'm eager to know. :)

metaphysics is silly.

at least when you get into details..

and start coming up with systems that lie Beyond that which is apparent.

Ah!

What's apparent? What do you mean? Systems like religion, or overall metaphysical beliefs in general??
mattrodstrom
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12/30/2010 10:33:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:31:19 AM, Ren wrote:
What's apparent?

tables are apparent...

and fish.. and atoms... and stuff.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/30/2010 10:35:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:33:06 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:31:19 AM, Ren wrote:
What's apparent?

tables are apparent...

and fish.. and atoms... and stuff.

Atoms are apparent?

Have you ever seen one? Are you absolutely certain that they exist, or do you rely on consensus? Have you checked over the mathematics that dictate the tenets of quantum physics, or do you simply assume that they're valid?

Have you ever experienced anything that could potentially be metaphysical?
mattrodstrom
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12/30/2010 10:35:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:30:34 AM, Ren wrote:
Ehh, no, I wouldn't quite say it's that simple. At all. I'm asserting that religion and spirituality are two entirely different things, although they coincide. In other words, humans are social and politics are a manifestation of the overall human social system, but politics =/= society.

you can be religious off living alone in the woods.

Religion quite often affects politics greatly... but that's not what makes religion.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ren
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12/30/2010 10:37:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:35:28 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:30:34 AM, Ren wrote:
Ehh, no, I wouldn't quite say it's that simple. At all. I'm asserting that religion and spirituality are two entirely different things, although they coincide. In other words, humans are social and politics are a manifestation of the overall human social system, but politics =/= society.

you can be religious off living alone in the woods.

Religion quite often affects politics greatly... but that's not what makes religion.

I don't understand your point, here. What I was saying is that spirituality and religion are two entirely different things, although they coincide. So, one does not need spirituality to be religious, and one does not need to follow a religion to be spiritual (although, it may make things much easier).
mattrodstrom
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12/30/2010 10:45:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:35:06 AM, Ren wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:33:06 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:31:19 AM, Ren wrote:
What's apparent?

tables are apparent...

and fish.. and atoms... and stuff.

Atoms are apparent?

Have you ever seen one?
I suppose I see their results all the time... though I've never seen one of itself.

Are you absolutely certain that they exist,
nope... they just apparently do.

or do you rely on consensus?
given that the conception of atoms (with electrons and the like) has allowed chemists to Regularly mix stuff up to all sorts of things.. and proven useful and dependable again and again in such endeavors...

atoms weren't just decided upon... they became apparent through experimentation... and through dependability when the concept is implemented in the world.

it would seem that they exist.

Have you checked over the mathematics that dictate the tenets of quantum physics, or do you simply assume that they're valid?

Have you ever experienced anything that could potentially be metaphysical?

Metaphysics is supposed to explain ALL that I experience.

It's explaining the same "reality".... just at a 'deeper' level...

The deepest level... the one that explains Reality's nature Completely.

Metaphysics seeks to get an understanding of reality behind
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/30/2010 10:49:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:30:34 AM, Ren wrote:
Lack of justification? Explain.

the lack of good reason for believing in supernatural things.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/30/2010 10:55:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
When you atheists disagree with "religion," it comes off as a general dismissal of a very broad concept that just screams misleading generalization. When you reject Christianity, it comes off as embitterment. Would you be willing to reconsider your stance with spirituality under consideration? Do you consider spirituality and religion distinct or synonymous? Do you feel that there is any benefit to either, or that any conception of metaphysics should be outright expunged? I'm eager to know.:

Spirituality to many atheists is vacuous and ambiguous. What does that even mean to them? It's like a term of endearment. It's emotive and sentimental, but it only means something to the person who is experiencing it.

And isn't that all that matters -- what it means to you?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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12/30/2010 10:56:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:49:05 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:30:34 AM, Ren wrote:
Lack of justification? Explain.

the lack of good reason for believing in supernatural things.

Purpose. I find it a decent reason.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/30/2010 10:56:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:45:16 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
given that the conception of atoms (with electrons and the like) has allowed chemists to Regularly mix stuff up to all sorts of things.. and proven useful and dependable again and again in such endeavors...

atoms weren't just decided upon... they became apparent through experimentation... and through dependability when the concept is implemented in the world.

This is true. Therefore, based on given applicability of a concept derived from experience, you could state viably that something is "real."

Would you say that this applies to metaphysics?

Have you ever experienced anything that could potentially be metaphysical?

Metaphysics is supposed to explain ALL that I experience.

Ehhh, I wouldn't quite say that. Much how science is an ongoing explanation that leaves much of reality a mystery, I'd say that metaphysics is a constantly evolving series of observations and suppositions that are not directly explored by the physical sciences.

It's explaining the same "reality".... just at a 'deeper' level...

I suppose, although I wouldn't quite say that it's on a deeper level, but rather, from a different vantage.

The deepest level... the one that explains Reality's nature Completely.

Metaphysics seeks to get an understanding of reality behind

Well, yes, this it does. But, that doesn't really invalidate it, does it?

I mean, why would you consider metaphysics silly?

And, once again, are you suggesting that you've never experienced anything conceivably metaphysical?
Ren
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12/30/2010 10:57:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:55:05 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
When you atheists disagree with "religion," it comes off as a general dismissal of a very broad concept that just screams misleading generalization. When you reject Christianity, it comes off as embitterment. Would you be willing to reconsider your stance with spirituality under consideration? Do you consider spirituality and religion distinct or synonymous? Do you feel that there is any benefit to either, or that any conception of metaphysics should be outright expunged? I'm eager to know.:

Spirituality to many atheists is vacuous and ambiguous. What does that even mean to them? It's like a term of endearment. It's emotive and sentimental, but it only means something to the person who is experiencing it.

And isn't that all that matters -- what it means to you?

I quite thoroughly disagree.

Spirituality is not only distinct, but it can be quite general in various ways.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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12/30/2010 11:04:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't understand your point, here. What I was saying is that spirituality and religion are two entirely different things, although they coincide. So, one does not need spirituality to be religious, and one does not need to follow a religion to be spiritual (although, it may make things much easier).:

This is all semantics, because what does it even mean? If I said to you, "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual," what would you think that I'm trying to communicate to you? To me, it smacks of a non-committal attitude. It's being partial to the belief that there is something beyond the temporal world, and we're here to embrace it.

But to an atheist, that's vacuous. It doesn't mean anything substantive. It just sounds like something people want to believe in, versus the way things really are. I've never really understood "spirituality" to mean anything other than flighty, fleeting feelings of enchantment and a "oneness" (whatever that means) with the universe. It's either all religions rolled up in to one, or it's like it's denuded religion; a religion that's been stripped away of specifics to a one-size-fits-all feelgood sentiment.

And to atheists, who enjoy understanding the world around them, it's total lack of substance is simply gobbledegook.

That's my take on it, anyhow.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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12/30/2010 11:07:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:56:38 AM, innomen wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:49:05 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:30:34 AM, Ren wrote:
Lack of justification? Explain.

the lack of good reason for believing in supernatural things.

Purpose. I find it a decent reason.:

Finding a purpose to the big "why's" of the universe seems valid, especial since humans enjoy abstract concepts. After all, science doesn't tell us why something is, it only tells us how.

I do believe that those too scientifically minded are missing out on simple joys that really don't need to be explained.

Be that as it may, if I were to ask you what the "purpose" is, for our existence, could you tell me what it is? Or is that ineffable?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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12/30/2010 11:09:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Spirituality is not only distinct, but it can be quite general in various ways.:

Then could you please elaborate?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
innomen
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12/30/2010 11:09:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 11:07:53 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:56:38 AM, innomen wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:49:05 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:30:34 AM, Ren wrote:
Lack of justification? Explain.

the lack of good reason for believing in supernatural things.

Purpose. I find it a decent reason.:

Finding a purpose to the big "why's" of the universe seems valid, especial since humans enjoy abstract concepts. After all, science doesn't tell us why something is, it only tells us how.

I do believe that those too scientifically minded are missing out on simple joys that really don't need to be explained.

Be that as it may, if I were to ask you what the "purpose" is, for our existence, could you tell me what it is? Or is that ineffable?

Sure, growth. Not sure to what end, but the purpose to living at the micro or macro level is growth.
mattrodstrom
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12/30/2010 11:13:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 10:56:38 AM, innomen wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:49:05 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:30:34 AM, Ren wrote:
Lack of justification? Explain.

the lack of good reason for believing in supernatural things.

Purpose. I find it a decent reason.

I find clinging to a belief for purpose completely unnecessary.

Purpose comes with caring...
if you care about things... you act accordingly..

you're actions have purpose.

now, I think you're a pretty tame case of this...
but The ONLY reason it would seem anyone would cling to the purposes of God's supposed cares is b/c they are not satisfied with themselves... they Cannot embrace/accept themselves... and their own naturally flowing purposes.

the only reason to cling to God's (supposed) Cares is b/c the person is too weak to embrace their own... and implement Their will.

so... they won't let go of God's Cares.. even though There's no reason to believe god exists (or cares that way)... because they're purpose isn't good enough.

they're pitiful, negative, Nihilistic Self-deniers deluding themselves such that they can pretend they have a better meaning than that natural meaning which they're oh so discontent with.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ren
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12/30/2010 11:17:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 11:04:06 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
This is all semantics, because what does it even mean?

It means that they're entirely different things. I was stating a fact about metaphysics, I was not defining it.

met·a·phys·ics   
[met-uh-fiz-iks] Show IPA
–noun ( used with a singular verb )
1.
the branch of philosophy that treats of first principles, includes ontology and cosmology, and is intimately connected with epistemology.

However, you're not entirely wrong:

2.
philosophy, esp. in its more abstruse branches.

But, that is only one of its four definitions. The other two are:

3.
the underlying theoretical principles of a subject or field of inquiry.
4.
( initial capital letter, italics ) a treatise (4th century b.c.) by Aristotle, dealing with first principles, the relation of universals to particulars, and the teleological doctrine of causation.

So, I wouldn't quite say that your conception of metaphysics is altogether accurate.

If I said to you, "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual," what would you think that I'm trying to communicate to you?

That although your beliefs include objects or concepts that are currently considered metaphysical (or, at least, exclusionary from the physical sciences), you do not follow any given established or indoctrinated religion.

To me, it smacks of a non-committal attitude.

Not any more noncommittal than an atheist and especially than an agnostic. But, I'd even go so far as to say that it's more committal than both.

It's being partial to the belief that there is something beyond the temporal world, and we're here to embrace it.

Mm, I wouldn't quite say that it's altogether beyond the temporal world, but rather, our current consensus on what it includes.

Don't forget that much of metaphysics have become fundamental parts of the physical sciences.

But to an atheist, that's vacuous.

Yes, I saw this the first time. I find it funny that someone who believes in nothing at all would consider vacuousness a means of invalidity. However, metaphysics is not vacuous in any regard. It's as though you're suggesting that people who study metaphysics simply read blank pages; that Aristotle contributed nothing whatsoever to Western thought, which clearly bleeds into the beliefs of the world at large.

It doesn't mean anything substantive.

Although that's wholly a matter of opinion, I think what I just said above approaches this well.

It just sounds like something people want to believe in, versus the way things really are.

Is that right? How does it sound like that? Is there a specific reason?

I've never really understood "spirituality" to mean anything other than flighty, fleeting feelings of enchantment and a "oneness" (whatever that means) with the universe.

Though false, that's pretty funny.

It's either all religions rolled up in to one, or it's like it's denuded religion; a religion that's been stripped away of specifics to a one-size-fits-all feelgood sentiment.

Wow, those are some pretty serious extremes leading to a funny conclusion. "It's either white or black, but clearly, it's colorless."

Anyway, it just seems like your just enjoying writing rather than attempting to provide support for your argument. Can't blame you, though, I love it, too. ;) You're not bad.

And to atheists, who enjoy understanding the world around them, it's total lack of substance is simply gobbledegook.

Are you an atheist? If so, what sciences do you study and how have they contributed to your conception of reality and how you live your life?

That's my take on it, anyhow.

Clearly. :P
PARADIGM_L0ST
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12/30/2010 11:18:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Be that as it may, if I were to ask you what the "purpose" is, for our existence, could you tell me what it is? Or is that ineffable?

Sure, growth. Not sure to what end, but the purpose to living at the micro or macro level is growth.:

Growth? You're substituting one cryptic and vague term for another. Can you please expound on what you mean by growth as being the purpose for our existence?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ren
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12/30/2010 11:19:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 11:09:18 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Spirituality is not only distinct, but it can be quite general in various ways.:

Then could you please elaborate?

Of course:

It's a very distinct series of studies and competencies that include associated writings and substantive conclusions. However, for those that follow metaphysics, there is a fair amount of consensus--I'd say, about as much as any other belief system or area of study.
innomen
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12/30/2010 11:22:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 11:13:01 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:56:38 AM, innomen wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:49:05 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/30/2010 10:30:34 AM, Ren wrote:
Lack of justification? Explain.

the lack of good reason for believing in supernatural things.

Purpose. I find it a decent reason.

I find clinging to a belief for purpose completely unnecessary.

I wasn't really speaking of just my own individual purpose, but okay. And I'm really happy for you for not finding it necessary, but you asked for a good reason, and i gave you one.

Purpose comes with caring...
Really? How do you figure?

if you care about things... you act accordingly..

you're actions have purpose.

now, I think you're a pretty tame case of this...
but The ONLY reason it would seem anyone would cling to the purposes of God's supposed cares is b/c they are not satisfied with themselves... they Cannot embrace/accept themselves... and their own naturally flowing purposes.

I really don't know that the reason for purpose is caring. That seems a little subjective in analysis.
the only reason to cling to God's (supposed) Cares is b/c the person is too weak to embrace their own... and implement Their will.

See i think you are looking really at the individual, i mean purpose to existence.

so... they won't let go of God's Cares.. even though There's no reason to believe god exists (or cares that way)... because they're purpose isn't good enough.

Maybe, but i don't think you're really getting it.
they're pitiful, negative, Nihilistic Self-deniers deluding themselves such that they can pretend they have a better meaning than that natural meaning which they're oh so discontent with.
They? Me?
Ren
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12/30/2010 11:23:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'd also like to clarify here that I do not believe that metaphysics are synonymous with spirituality; they may indeed include things that are irrelevant to one another.
innomen
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12/30/2010 11:30:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 11:18:49 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Be that as it may, if I were to ask you what the "purpose" is, for our existence, could you tell me what it is? Or is that ineffable?

Sure, growth. Not sure to what end, but the purpose to living at the micro or macro level is growth.:

Growth? You're substituting one cryptic and vague term for another. Can you please expound on what you mean by growth as being the purpose for our existence?

Well, i guess it isn't well defined, but if you look at us as a species and each of us individually, you can see growth as a part of our purpose in life and in existing. It makes a lot of sense to me, but i don't expect it to mean a lot to others. My experiences have created growth, and some of the most terrible ones have created the most growth. I think this is true of society, and as a species. To what end, i am not really sure.
mattrodstrom
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12/30/2010 11:32:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 11:22:02 AM, innomen wrote:
they're pitiful, negative, Nihilistic Self-deniers deluding themselves such that they can pretend they have a better meaning than that natural meaning which they're oh so discontent with.
They? Me?

you don't deny yourself... (as many religious folks do)

but you seem to suffer a little bit from the same pessimism as do the others who believe in god for purpose...

"meaning/purpose" exists through Your caring... an occurrence is 'meaningful' if it matters to you.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."