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Atheist Morality

ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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8/3/2016 6:57:53 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality.

If we think of morality as being embodied by the doctrines, traditions and laws of a society, then that is certainly true of Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu societies.

However, it is also true of secular societies, that have no one over-riding religion. Essentially, you can formulate doctrines, traditions and laws from anything, and they'll either be stable enough to keep society viable and content or they won't.

So what makes a good moral system?

One of the things we know for sure is that an overwhelming majority of Christians believe canonical doctrines, traditions and laws alone don't make a good moral system.

We know that because we can see how much they've changed those doctrines, traditions and laws over the centuries to improve the kindness and justice in their own societies. For example, Christians have embraced doctrines and enacted laws to:

* guarantee equality between different Christian and non-Christian beliefs;
* ensure freedom of association and speech;
* institute accountable, democratically-elected governments;
* abolish slavery;
* ensure the right to a fair, and evidence-based trial;
* recognise a germ theory of medicine;
* recognise the right to work on Sabbaths and holy days;
* removal of adultery as a statutory crime;
* guarantee equality of women including the rights to their own faith, property, inheritance, choice of husbands, the right to vote, to serve on governments and in the judiciary, to travel unaccompanied, to voice their own opinions, and operate their own businesses;
* ensure that adults are responsible for the rights, health and future welfare of children; and
* abolish blasphemy and heresy laws.

None of these doctrines and laws are actually enshrined in Christian canon, nor did any ancient Christian church recognise these ideas. Christians had to alter their traditions, doctrines and laws to embrace these ideas -- and did so with great difficulty. Which means they worked out that these were improvements without Christian canon to help them. In fact we could go further and say that since early Church fathers didn't recognise these ideas, and would have vocally opposed most of them, and since Christians came to these ideas so slowly and reluctantly, Christian canon was an impediment to them doing so.

So which traditions and doctrines did Christians keep? Let's see:
* Don't kill -- a prescription common across many cultures;
* Don't steal -- ditto;
* Be kind -- an uncontroversially self-evident tenet, again across many cultures;
* Honour your parents -- hardly necessary when parents owned the family property, but generally upheld in most societies anyway.

And this is the morality atheists are supposed to be unable to understand without a religious education?

The belief that atheists cannot be moral has very little to do with atheist behaviour. Atheists are known for being good neighbours, for having very low representation in prisons [http://www.patheos.com...], and for being more supportive of the moral innovations I listed above than are many religious. They typically have a level of religious knowledge higher than most self-identified religious. [http://www.pewforum.org...] Yet they're largely unobtrusive: most speak of their irreligion seldom or never to people of faith. [http://www.pewresearch.org...] Their children are also more altruistic and less aggressive than Christian children, though Christian parents don't realise it. [https://news.uchicago.edu...] So why the moral vilification of such well-behaved people?

A better explanation is that many people raised in religious tradition find it hard to understand why atheists prefer no belief to their belief. But monotheistic dualists in particular, who frame the world in terms of a life-and-death good and evil fight, cannot conceive anyone outside their own traditions as being of good will, acting ethically and seeking good. To do so would be to undermine their own supremacism.

Monotheistic dualists are renowned for their doctrinally-mandated belligerence. There's a War on, they believe; they must Save the World, and they're the Only Ones who can do so. In societies where atheists are a small minority, they're an easy target. In the US for example, law-abiding atheists are trusted less than convicted rapists [http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...]. Atheist politicians are virtually unelectable to US congress [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and that's simply from long-lasting prejudice and active vilification.

The suspicion about atheist morality is largely confined to the US. Unsupported by any behavioural data and unshared by most other developed-world countries, it's a product of concerted and prolonged religious bigotry, and there's nothing more to say about it.
ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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8/3/2016 1:00:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:57:53 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality.

If we think of morality as being embodied by the doctrines, traditions and laws of a society, then that is certainly true of Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu societies.

However, it is also true of secular societies, that have no one over-riding religion. Essentially, you can formulate doctrines, traditions and laws from anything, and they'll either be stable enough to keep society viable and content or they won't.

So what makes a good moral system?

One of the things we know for sure is that an overwhelming majority of Christians believe canonical doctrines, traditions and laws alone don't make a good moral system.

We know that because we can see how much they've changed those doctrines, traditions and laws over the centuries to improve the kindness and justice in their own societies. For example, Christians have embraced doctrines and enacted laws to:

* guarantee equality between different Christian and non-Christian beliefs;
* ensure freedom of association and speech;
* institute accountable, democratically-elected governments;
* abolish slavery;
* ensure the right to a fair, and evidence-based trial;
* recognise a germ theory of medicine;
* recognise the right to work on Sabbaths and holy days;
* removal of adultery as a statutory crime;
* guarantee equality of women including the rights to their own faith, property, inheritance, choice of husbands, the right to vote, to serve on governments and in the judiciary, to travel unaccompanied, to voice their own opinions, and operate their own businesses;
* ensure that adults are responsible for the rights, health and future welfare of children; and
* abolish blasphemy and heresy laws.

None of these doctrines and laws are actually enshrined in Christian canon, nor did any ancient Christian church recognise these ideas. Christians had to alter their traditions, doctrines and laws to embrace these ideas -- and did so with great difficulty. Which means they worked out that these were improvements without Christian canon to help them. In fact we could go further and say that since early Church fathers didn't recognise these ideas, and would have vocally opposed most of them, and since Christians came to these ideas so slowly and reluctantly, Christian canon was an impediment to them doing so.

So which traditions and doctrines did Christians keep? Let's see:
* Don't kill -- a prescription common across many cultures;
* Don't steal -- ditto;
* Be kind -- an uncontroversially self-evident tenet, again across many cultures;
* Honour your parents -- hardly necessary when parents owned the family property, but generally upheld in most societies anyway.

And this is the morality atheists are supposed to be unable to understand without a religious education?

The belief that atheists cannot be moral has very little to do with atheist behaviour. Atheists are known for being good neighbours, for having very low representation in prisons [http://www.patheos.com...], and for being more supportive of the moral innovations I listed above than are many religious. They typically have a level of religious knowledge higher than most self-identified religious. [http://www.pewforum.org...] Yet they're largely unobtrusive: most speak of their irreligion seldom or never to people of faith. [http://www.pewresearch.org...] Their children are also more altruistic and less aggressive than Christian children, though Christian parents don't realise it. [https://news.uchicago.edu...] So why the moral vilification of such well-behaved people?

A better explanation is that many people raised in religious tradition find it hard to understand why atheists prefer no belief to their belief. But monotheistic dualists in particular, who frame the world in terms of a life-and-death good and evil fight, cannot conceive anyone outside their own traditions as being of good will, acting ethically and seeking good. To do so would be to undermine their own supremacism.

Monotheistic dualists are renowned for their doctrinally-mandated belligerence. There's a War on, they believe; they must Save the World, and they're the Only Ones who can do so. In societies where atheists are a small minority, they're an easy target. In the US for example, law-abiding atheists are trusted less than convicted rapists [http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...]. Atheist politicians are virtually unelectable to US congress [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and that's simply from long-lasting prejudice and active vilification.
That is something that I never understood. Why is there a prejudice against atheists? Why has atheism become such a taboo? For crying out loud, I have met people that don't even want to say the word! Why be so prejudiced against such a generally well behaved group of people?
The suspicion about atheist morality is largely confined to the US. Unsupported by any behavioural data and unshared by most other developed-world countries, it's a product of concerted and prolonged religious bigotry, and there's nothing more to say about it.
There's another thing that I don't get. Why is this a problem so much more prevalent in the U.S.? Why is there more hate based on religion here than anywhere else?
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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8/3/2016 1:05:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 1:00:24 PM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:57:53 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality.

If we think of morality as being embodied by the doctrines, traditions and laws of a society, then that is certainly true of Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu societies.

However, it is also true of secular societies, that have no one over-riding religion. Essentially, you can formulate doctrines, traditions and laws from anything, and they'll either be stable enough to keep society viable and content or they won't.

So what makes a good moral system?

One of the things we know for sure is that an overwhelming majority of Christians believe canonical doctrines, traditions and laws alone don't make a good moral system.

We know that because we can see how much they've changed those doctrines, traditions and laws over the centuries to improve the kindness and justice in their own societies. For example, Christians have embraced doctrines and enacted laws to:

* guarantee equality between different Christian and non-Christian beliefs;
* ensure freedom of association and speech;
* institute accountable, democratically-elected governments;
* abolish slavery;
* ensure the right to a fair, and evidence-based trial;
* recognise a germ theory of medicine;
* recognise the right to work on Sabbaths and holy days;
* removal of adultery as a statutory crime;
* guarantee equality of women including the rights to their own faith, property, inheritance, choice of husbands, the right to vote, to serve on governments and in the judiciary, to travel unaccompanied, to voice their own opinions, and operate their own businesses;
* ensure that adults are responsible for the rights, health and future welfare of children; and
* abolish blasphemy and heresy laws.

None of these doctrines and laws are actually enshrined in Christian canon, nor did any ancient Christian church recognise these ideas. Christians had to alter their traditions, doctrines and laws to embrace these ideas -- and did so with great difficulty. Which means they worked out that these were improvements without Christian canon to help them. In fact we could go further and say that since early Church fathers didn't recognise these ideas, and would have vocally opposed most of them, and since Christians came to these ideas so slowly and reluctantly, Christian canon was an impediment to them doing so.

So which traditions and doctrines did Christians keep? Let's see:
* Don't kill -- a prescription common across many cultures;
* Don't steal -- ditto;
* Be kind -- an uncontroversially self-evident tenet, again across many cultures;
* Honour your parents -- hardly necessary when parents owned the family property, but generally upheld in most societies anyway.

And this is the morality atheists are supposed to be unable to understand without a religious education?

The belief that atheists cannot be moral has very little to do with atheist behaviour. Atheists are known for being good neighbours, for having very low representation in prisons [http://www.patheos.com...], and for being more supportive of the moral innovations I listed above than are many religious. They typically have a level of religious knowledge higher than most self-identified religious. [http://www.pewforum.org...] Yet they're largely unobtrusive: most speak of their irreligion seldom or never to people of faith. [http://www.pewresearch.org...] Their children are also more altruistic and less aggressive than Christian children, though Christian parents don't realise it. [https://news.uchicago.edu...] So why the moral vilification of such well-behaved people?

A better explanation is that many people raised in religious tradition find it hard to understand why atheists prefer no belief to their belief. But monotheistic dualists in particular, who frame the world in terms of a life-and-death good and evil fight, cannot conceive anyone outside their own traditions as being of good will, acting ethically and seeking good. To do so would be to undermine their own supremacism.

Monotheistic dualists are renowned for their doctrinally-mandated belligerence. There's a War on, they believe; they must Save the World, and they're the Only Ones who can do so. In societies where atheists are a small minority, they're an easy target. In the US for example, law-abiding atheists are trusted less than convicted rapists [http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...]. Atheist politicians are virtually unelectable to US congress [https://en.wikipedia.org...], and that's simply from long-lasting prejudice and active vilification.
That is something that I never understood. Why is there a prejudice against atheists? Why has atheism become such a taboo? For crying out loud, I have met people that don't even want to say the word! Why be so prejudiced against such a generally well behaved group of people?
The suspicion about atheist morality is largely confined to the US. Unsupported by any behavioural data and unshared by most other developed-world countries, it's a product of concerted and prolonged religious bigotry, and there's nothing more to say about it.
There's another thing that I don't get. Why is this a problem so much more prevalent in the U.S.? Why is there more hate based on religion here than anywhere else?
Because the USA is just as isolationist as Nth Korea. The very vast majority of Americans cannot name any country on the globe when questioned.
War is how Americans learn geography.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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8/3/2016 6:10:39 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I don't think anyone says atheists have no morality. I would argue that they have no basis for their morality. However, they are capable of adhering to the laws that God has written on their hearts.

(That should be invective enough to create discussion ;-).
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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8/3/2016 6:21:32 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:10:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I don't think anyone says atheists have no morality.

Because that'd be so patiently absurd it would be embarrassing.

I would argue that they have no basis for their morality.

False.
Secular humanism not only forms the basis of sound morality but societal well-fare seems to correlate strongly with the degree of its adoption.

However, they are capable of adhering to the laws that God has written on their hearts.

God wrote nothing on anyone's hearts.
The trend is to leave much of such mythical scribblings behind, where they belong, in the waste bin of Civilization.

Let's celebrate.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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8/3/2016 6:23:41 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:10:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I don't think anyone says atheists have no morality. I would argue that they have no basis for their morality. However, they are capable of adhering to the laws that God has written on their hearts.

(That should be invective enough to create discussion ;-).

I'll just agree with you, how about that :-) And to clarify - for me "no basis for their morality" means, no logical basis. They have no idea why they are moral, it's purely instinctive.

And actually, we believers don't know why we're moral either. We know God is the moral authority and moral teacher, but we don't know *why* good and evil itself exists. It's as incomprehensible as time, and just as familiar. But clearly morality pertains to spirit, so it's something that fits comfortably with our world view. Maybe we could put it like this: Morality is mysterious for both theist and atheist, but the atheist worldview rules out any possible explanation. It has to be pure magic for the atheist.
This space for rent.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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8/3/2016 6:24:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:21:32 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:10:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:

I would argue that they have no basis for their morality.

False.
Secular humanism not only forms the basis of sound morality but societal well-fare seems to correlate strongly with the degree of its adoption.

What is the basis of human rights? What in nature dictates these rights exist?
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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8/3/2016 6:39:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

Existentialism.
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/3/2016 6:41:17 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:39:42 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

Existentialism.
Please elaborate.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/3/2016 7:18:07 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You make the claim that life is meaningless. Would you care to expound on that theory?
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/3/2016 7:32:50 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 7:18:07 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You make the claim that life is meaningless. Would you care to expound on that theory?
Nope, you do. Atheists do.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
Chaosism
Posts: 2,649
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8/3/2016 7:33:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You are conflating atheism and existential nihilism. One position of belief does not necessarily imply the other position of belief.
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/3/2016 7:35:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 7:33:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You are conflating atheism and existential nihilism. One position of belief does not necessarily imply the other position of belief.
Well, what is the purpose of being moral if life is meaningless, assuming there would be no earthly punishment for your actions.

Atheism and nihilism go hand in hand.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
Chaosism
Posts: 2,649
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8/3/2016 7:40:35 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 6:10:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I don't think anyone says atheists have no morality. I would argue that they have no basis for their morality. However, they are capable of adhering to the laws that God has written on their hearts.

(That should be invective enough to create discussion ;-).

I hold the position of ethical nihilism, but I think morality can be objectivized; a moral foundation can be established based on the intrinsic inclinations of humankind. Certainly, there is no possibility for anything like an indisputable, rigid code, but since the vast majority of humans are naturally biased towards well-being, in general, then there is some basis. This basis, while ultimately arbitrary in the scope of the universe, does possess merit within the scope of human existence.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,649
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8/3/2016 7:45:13 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 7:35:51 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:33:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You are conflating atheism and existential nihilism. One position of belief does not necessarily imply the other position of belief.
Well, what is the purpose of being moral if life is meaningless, assuming there would be no earthly punishment for your actions.

Atheism and nihilism go hand in hand.

The only thing atheism entails is a lack of belief in a god. Nothing more. An atheist can easily hold a belief in the meaning of life apart from one bestowed by some god (e.g. some spiritual realm). While the two might be very compatible and are often associated, they are separate positions of belief. While you may personally hold the belief that life is meaningless without god, that doesn't affect the beliefs of others.
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/3/2016 7:54:04 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 7:45:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:35:51 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:33:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You are conflating atheism and existential nihilism. One position of belief does not necessarily imply the other position of belief.
Well, what is the purpose of being moral if life is meaningless, assuming there would be no earthly punishment for your actions.

Atheism and nihilism go hand in hand.

The only thing atheism entails is a lack of belief in a god. Nothing more. An atheist can easily hold a belief in the meaning of life apart from one bestowed by some god (e.g. some spiritual realm). While the two might be very compatible and are often associated, they are separate positions of belief. While you may personally hold the belief that life is meaningless without god, that doesn't affect the beliefs of others.
Dude, cut the crap. Without God, we are an accident, thus life is meaningless. As long as you don't get caught, it is A-OK. There is no Heaven, Hell, or punishment for your wrongdoings. This is atheism.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
Chaosism
Posts: 2,649
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8/3/2016 8:00:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 7:54:04 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:45:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:35:51 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:33:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You are conflating atheism and existential nihilism. One position of belief does not necessarily imply the other position of belief.
Well, what is the purpose of being moral if life is meaningless, assuming there would be no earthly punishment for your actions.

Atheism and nihilism go hand in hand.

The only thing atheism entails is a lack of belief in a god. Nothing more. An atheist can easily hold a belief in the meaning of life apart from one bestowed by some god (e.g. some spiritual realm). While the two might be very compatible and are often associated, they are separate positions of belief. While you may personally hold the belief that life is meaningless without god, that doesn't affect the beliefs of others.
Dude, cut the crap. Without God, we are an accident, thus life is meaningless. As long as you don't get caught, it is A-OK. There is no Heaven, Hell, or punishment for your wrongdoings. This is atheism.

Again, your belief on this matter doesn't affect the beliefs of others. I'm sorry that you have such an empty view of life and lack the ability to find meaning in it without it being assigned by some external agency. In the event that you lost belief in god, I trust you would immediately revert to theft and other malicious acts since it doesn't matter, anyway?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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8/3/2016 8:04:21 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 7:40:35 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:10:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I don't think anyone says atheists have no morality. I would argue that they have no basis for their morality. However, they are capable of adhering to the laws that God has written on their hearts.

(That should be invective enough to create discussion ;-).

I hold the position of ethical nihilism, but I think morality can be objectivized; a moral foundation can be established based on the intrinsic inclinations of humankind. Certainly, there is no possibility for anything like an indisputable, rigid code, but since the vast majority of humans are naturally biased towards well-being, in general, then there is some basis. This basis, while ultimately arbitrary in the scope of the universe, does possess merit within the scope of human existence.

Arbitrary is the key word there. It is thus not objective in any sense - really just group think.
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/3/2016 8:05:20 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 8:00:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:54:04 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:45:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:35:51 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:33:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You are conflating atheism and existential nihilism. One position of belief does not necessarily imply the other position of belief.
Well, what is the purpose of being moral if life is meaningless, assuming there would be no earthly punishment for your actions.

Atheism and nihilism go hand in hand.

The only thing atheism entails is a lack of belief in a god. Nothing more. An atheist can easily hold a belief in the meaning of life apart from one bestowed by some god (e.g. some spiritual realm). While the two might be very compatible and are often associated, they are separate positions of belief. While you may personally hold the belief that life is meaningless without god, that doesn't affect the beliefs of others.
Dude, cut the crap. Without God, we are an accident, thus life is meaningless. As long as you don't get caught, it is A-OK. There is no Heaven, Hell, or punishment for your wrongdoings. This is atheism.

Again, your belief on this matter doesn't affect the beliefs of others. I'm sorry that you have such an empty view of life and lack the ability to find meaning in it without it being assigned by some external agency. In the event that you lost belief in god, I trust you would immediately revert to theft and other malicious acts since it doesn't matter, anyway?
Nope, I don't want to go to jail.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/3/2016 8:07:50 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 7:32:50 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:18:07 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You make the claim that life is meaningless. Would you care to expound on that theory?
Nope, you do. Atheists do.

Can you quote any atheist saying this?
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/3/2016 8:08:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 8:07:50 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:32:50 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:18:07 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You make the claim that life is meaningless. Would you care to expound on that theory?
Nope, you do. Atheists do.

Can you quote any atheist saying this?
Nope, but logically speaking, if there is no punishment for wrongdoing, why be moral?
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
Chaosism
Posts: 2,649
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8/3/2016 8:13:28 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 8:04:21 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:40:35 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:10:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I don't think anyone says atheists have no morality. I would argue that they have no basis for their morality. However, they are capable of adhering to the laws that God has written on their hearts.

(That should be invective enough to create discussion ;-).

I hold the position of ethical nihilism, but I think morality can be objectivized; a moral foundation can be established based on the intrinsic inclinations of humankind. Certainly, there is no possibility for anything like an indisputable, rigid code, but since the vast majority of humans are naturally biased towards well-being, in general, then there is some basis. This basis, while ultimately arbitrary in the scope of the universe, does possess merit within the scope of human existence.

Arbitrary is the key word there. It is thus not objective in any sense - really just group think.

Right, but since we're inseparable from the bounds of the human nature and experience, the valuation of well-being (which is the arbitrary bias) provides a decent foundation which morality can be objectively evaluated by (e.g. suffering is generally bad). This is sufficient for benefitting human well-being in order to improve the experience of life. This standard doesn't have to be truly objective; things don't have to be good/bad outside the human disposition for them to be so within it.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/3/2016 8:14:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 8:08:58 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 8:07:50 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:32:50 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:18:07 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You make the claim that life is meaningless. Would you care to expound on that theory?
Nope, you do. Atheists do.

Can you quote any atheist saying this?
Nope, but logically speaking, if there is no punishment for wrongdoing, why be moral?

So, as is so often the case, you have no evidence to support your extraordinary claims, so you just make stuff up.

Theism in a nutshell.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,649
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8/3/2016 8:16:16 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 8:05:20 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 8:00:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:54:04 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:45:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:35:51 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:33:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You are conflating atheism and existential nihilism. One position of belief does not necessarily imply the other position of belief.
Well, what is the purpose of being moral if life is meaningless, assuming there would be no earthly punishment for your actions.

Atheism and nihilism go hand in hand.

The only thing atheism entails is a lack of belief in a god. Nothing more. An atheist can easily hold a belief in the meaning of life apart from one bestowed by some god (e.g. some spiritual realm). While the two might be very compatible and are often associated, they are separate positions of belief. While you may personally hold the belief that life is meaningless without god, that doesn't affect the beliefs of others.
Dude, cut the crap. Without God, we are an accident, thus life is meaningless. As long as you don't get caught, it is A-OK. There is no Heaven, Hell, or punishment for your wrongdoings. This is atheism.

Again, your belief on this matter doesn't affect the beliefs of others. I'm sorry that you have such an empty view of life and lack the ability to find meaning in it without it being assigned by some external agency. In the event that you lost belief in god, I trust you would immediately revert to theft and other malicious acts since it doesn't matter, anyway?
Nope, I don't want to go to jail.

And I'm more afraid of someone who is more concerned about going to jail than for those around him. I trust that you would also murder someone for monetary gain if you knew that you'd get away with it?
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/3/2016 8:16:46 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 8:14:30 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 8:08:58 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 8:07:50 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:32:50 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:18:07 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You make the claim that life is meaningless. Would you care to expound on that theory?
Nope, you do. Atheists do.

Can you quote any atheist saying this?
Nope, but logically speaking, if there is no punishment for wrongdoing, why be moral?

So, as is so often the case, you have no evidence to support your extraordinary claims, so you just make stuff up.

Theism in a nutshell.
LOL! If life is meaningless, and you know you could get away with a crime, why be moral if there is no God? Do you see what I mean?
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
janesix
Posts: 3,439
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8/3/2016 8:19:20 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 8:08:58 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 8:07:50 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:32:50 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:18:07 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You make the claim that life is meaningless. Would you care to expound on that theory?
Nope, you do. Atheists do.

Can you quote any atheist saying this?
Nope, but logically speaking, if there is no punishment for wrongdoing, why be moral?
If you have to be threatened into good behavior, are you really moral?
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/3/2016 8:19:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 8:16:16 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 8:05:20 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 8:00:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:54:04 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:45:13 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:35:51 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:33:43 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You are conflating atheism and existential nihilism. One position of belief does not necessarily imply the other position of belief.
Well, what is the purpose of being moral if life is meaningless, assuming there would be no earthly punishment for your actions.

Atheism and nihilism go hand in hand.

The only thing atheism entails is a lack of belief in a god. Nothing more. An atheist can easily hold a belief in the meaning of life apart from one bestowed by some god (e.g. some spiritual realm). While the two might be very compatible and are often associated, they are separate positions of belief. While you may personally hold the belief that life is meaningless without god, that doesn't affect the beliefs of others.
Dude, cut the crap. Without God, we are an accident, thus life is meaningless. As long as you don't get caught, it is A-OK. There is no Heaven, Hell, or punishment for your wrongdoings. This is atheism.

Again, your belief on this matter doesn't affect the beliefs of others. I'm sorry that you have such an empty view of life and lack the ability to find meaning in it without it being assigned by some external agency. In the event that you lost belief in god, I trust you would immediately revert to theft and other malicious acts since it doesn't matter, anyway?
Nope, I don't want to go to jail.

And I'm more afraid of someone who is more concerned about going to jail than for those around him. I trust that you would also murder someone for monetary gain if you knew that you'd get away with it?
Nope, because I believe in God! You don't, so why be moral?
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/3/2016 8:20:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 8:19:20 PM, janesix wrote:
At 8/3/2016 8:08:58 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 8:07:50 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:32:50 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 7:18:07 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:38:02 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/3/2016 6:02:13 AM, ANON_TacTiX wrote:
There are a lot of people that say that atheists have no morality. They say that because we have no religion, we just do whatever we want with no sense of right or wrong. They claim that religion is essential for morality. I would like to talk about this.

I invite both atheists and theists to participate in this discussion, as I would like to be able to bring as many different views and opinions together as possible.

I would also be willing to discuss objectivity/subjectivity of morality.

As in my other forums, I have some ground rules. Those that have been in my forums are familiar, but I will state them for newcomers. I will tolerate no insults or name calling in this forum. They solve nothing, prove nothing, and tend to ruin debates. I want this forum to be a place to exchange ideas and opinions, not hate. I would also ask that people show a little understanding and consideration, even if you don't agree with someone. Two people may not agree, but that does not mean that one can't try and understand where the other is coming from. Thank you, and I hope you have a good time here.
No, you guys do have morality (at least most do), but it is illogical, considering the fact that life is meaningless (according to atheism).

You make the claim that life is meaningless. Would you care to expound on that theory?
Nope, you do. Atheists do.

Can you quote any atheist saying this?
Nope, but logically speaking, if there is no punishment for wrongdoing, why be moral?
If you have to be threatened into good behavior, are you really moral?
Logically speaking, if there is no punishment to being immoral, there is no reason to be moral. Without God, morality is illogical and unnecessary.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss