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Is god evil?

Chaosism
Posts: 2,649
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8/9/2016 8:51:14 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

All of the above, assuming that god is the all-powerful, sole creator of the universe. Every act that is subject to judgment (which is all of them) is the result of god's will. The notions of good and evil are a product of the creation within the confines of the human disposition, and the terms are entirely relative to each other within it. From outside of the creation, the notions of good and evil aren't applicable: since they are co-dependent, relative terms, they are not applicable in a scenario in which only one entity exists.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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8/9/2016 9:08:07 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

What about nature is destructive and/or violent?

What about being destructive infers morally evil?

How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?

Does empathy and compassion keep you from killing a cow? stepping on a spider?

Why should i think that your moral judgement and assertions of what is and is not Evil is superior to a possibly real God?

When you answer these I'll answer yours from a christian perspective.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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8/9/2016 9:09:30 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 8:51:14 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

All of the above, assuming that god is the all-powerful, sole creator of the universe. Every act that is subject to judgment (which is all of them) is the result of god's will. The notions of good and evil are a product of the creation within the confines of the human disposition, and the terms are entirely relative to each other within it. From outside of the creation, the notions of good and evil aren't applicable: since they are co-dependent, relative terms, they are not applicable in a scenario in which only one entity exists.

Interesting ideation. I generally say doing God's will is Good, going against God;s will is evil. Therefore by definition nothing God does is Evil.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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8/9/2016 10:09:46 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 9:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:51:14 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

All of the above, assuming that god is the all-powerful, sole creator of the universe. Every act that is subject to judgment (which is all of them) is the result of god's will. The notions of good and evil are a product of the creation within the confines of the human disposition, and the terms are entirely relative to each other within it. From outside of the creation, the notions of good and evil aren't applicable: since they are co-dependent, relative terms, they are not applicable in a scenario in which only one entity exists.

Interesting ideation. I generally say doing God's will is Good, going against God;s will is evil. Therefore by definition nothing God does is Evil.

That is assuming you know what God's will is and as a Christian His will to you is articulated in the Bible. So how do you deal with the contradictions and controversies found in the bible? The fact that there are 32,000 denominations of Christians is further evidence God's will is not unanimously followed.
And if you are a Jehovah's Witness, you believe all 32,000 denominations of Christians are wrong.
And if you are an atheists, you believe all 32,000 denominations of Christians plus the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong.
God must be evil to create confusion in the minds of those who want to believe in Him.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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8/9/2016 10:40:18 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 10:09:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:51:14 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

All of the above, assuming that god is the all-powerful, sole creator of the universe. Every act that is subject to judgment (which is all of them) is the result of god's will. The notions of good and evil are a product of the creation within the confines of the human disposition, and the terms are entirely relative to each other within it. From outside of the creation, the notions of good and evil aren't applicable: since they are co-dependent, relative terms, they are not applicable in a scenario in which only one entity exists.

Interesting ideation. I generally say doing God's will is Good, going against God;s will is evil. Therefore by definition nothing God does is Evil.

That is assuming you know what God's will is and as a Christian His will to you is articulated in the Bible. So how do you deal with the contradictions and controversies found in the bible? The fact that there are 32,000 denominations of Christians is further evidence God's will is not unanimously followed.
And if you are a Jehovah's Witness, you believe all 32,000 denominations of Christians are wrong.
And if you are an atheists, you believe all 32,000 denominations of Christians plus the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong.
God must be evil to create confusion in the minds of those who want to believe in Him.

Show me the confusion between what Jesus and Paul taught that support 32,000 denominations and I will show you what they really taught, which is unity, one accord, one mind, one God, one purpose, singularities, no divisions.....
"Denominations" are man made, they have no bearing on pure scripture. They are preferences and opinions, that is it.

It's not about religions or doctrines anyways, rather APPLICATION. Good Lord this is gonna take awhile...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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8/9/2016 10:44:03 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

Why did God make nature so beautiful and delicate?
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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8/9/2016 11:42:26 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 10:44:03 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

Why did God make nature so beautiful and delicate?

Why did God make animals that became extinct ?

Why did he make the meteorite that "supposedly" wiped out a majority of his creatures.
Like his collection of dinosaurs.
Some five and a half thousand years ago. Or maybe a little bit longer.
janesix
Posts: 3,441
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8/9/2016 11:56:43 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 9:08:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

What about nature is destructive and/or violent?

Animals kill each other for food. This involves pain and suffering. Animals eat each other alive.

What about being destructive infers morally evil?
The intent to create a world that depends on pain and suffering for survival.

How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?
I am not an atheist.

Does empathy and compassion keep you from killing a cow? stepping on a spider?
Sometimes. Mostly not. In fact i am a coward and depend on others to kill my food for me.

Why should i think that your moral judgement and assertions of what is and is not Evil is superior to a possibly real God?

I dont think you should. I think god us both good and evil, just like every human being.

When you answer these I'll answer yours from a christian perspective.
janesix
Posts: 3,441
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8/9/2016 11:58:35 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 10:44:03 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

Why did God make nature so beautiful and delicate?
There is both beauty and ugliness on nature. Why do you think god made it that way?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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8/10/2016 1:37:28 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 11:56:43 PM, janesix wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:08:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

What about nature is destructive and/or violent?

Animals kill each other for food. This involves pain and suffering. Animals eat each other alive.

okay I'll agree there. nature is violent and destructive by definition.


What about being destructive infers morally evil?
The intent to create a world that depends on pain and suffering for survival.

Survival doesn't depend on pain and suffering. Maybe i don't understand you because you aren't using good English. See when you say X "depends on" Y... what you are saying Y is a requirement for X.

Pain and suffering are a by product of 2 sides struggling to live. but sustaining life doesn't need pain. Pain is a natural by product.

Are you saying for things to survive they must feel pain and suffering?

But back to the original question.. What about that is "Evil"?


How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?
I am not an atheist.

how are you morally superior to God? Can you raise yourself from the dead?


Does empathy and compassion keep you from killing a cow? stepping on a spider?
Sometimes. Mostly not. In fact i am a coward and depend on others to kill my food for me.

So you are condemning the action of inflicting death and suffering while at the same time you do it yourself.


Why should i think that your moral judgement and assertions of what is and is not Evil is superior to a possibly real God?

I dont think you should. I think god us both good and evil, just like every human being.

Please define Good and Evil.

And yet you miss my point. You made they assertion that (in a round about way) that god is evil because he made nature with destruction and suffering, which is Evil.

But why should I accept this assertion? Why should I accept your description of such things are evil?

And that's meeting you have way because for the sake of argument I won't ask for you to support the claim that god made it that way.
((let's forget the Judaeo christian concept of the fall.))


When you answer these I'll answer yours from a christian perspective.

When you tell me why that stuff is Evil, then I can address whether or not this means God is evil.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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8/10/2016 1:46:39 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 10:09:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:51:14 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

All of the above, assuming that god is the all-powerful, sole creator of the universe. Every act that is subject to judgment (which is all of them) is the result of god's will. The notions of good and evil are a product of the creation within the confines of the human disposition, and the terms are entirely relative to each other within it. From outside of the creation, the notions of good and evil aren't applicable: since they are co-dependent, relative terms, they are not applicable in a scenario in which only one entity exists.

Interesting ideation. I generally say doing God's will is Good, going against God;s will is evil. Therefore by definition nothing God does is Evil.

That is assuming you know what God's will is and as a Christian His will to you is articulated in the Bible. So how do you deal with the contradictions and controversies found in the bible? The fact that there are 32,000 denominations of Christians is further evidence God's will is not unanimously followed.
And if you are a Jehovah's Witness, you believe all 32,000 denominations of Christians are wrong.
And if you are an atheists, you believe all 32,000 denominations of Christians plus the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong.
God must be evil to create confusion in the minds of those who want to believe in Him.

There are plenty who take the Bible to be some paramount guide to life. I don't.

Sure the bible is helpful and nice to have, but I have a relationship with God. I'm not perfect but sometimes I hear his will clearly.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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8/10/2016 2:08:43 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 9:08:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

What about nature is destructive and/or violent?

Tornadoes, droughts, hurricanes, etc.

What about being destructive infers morally evil?

It wouldn't be morally evil if it was something that could not be helped. The problem is that theists say that God is all-powerful. If he is able to save deaths of peoples loved ones and caretakers/providers (without whom some starve), why wouldn't he?

It is not the tornado that kills someone that is evil. Its that it is asserted that it could be stopped but simply isn't bothered with.

How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?

Because I have empathy and I don't like to see my fellow human beings suffering. Obviously, I care more about strangers than God does for the people that beg and plead to him for help.

Does empathy and compassion keep you from killing a cow? stepping on a spider?

No, because empathy evolved to primarily be directed at ones own tribe/family (humans). I can provide sources if this is debated.

Why should i think that your moral judgement and assertions of what is and is not Evil is superior to a possibly real God?

Since Moses thought it was moral to have his men kill innocent non-combatants and spare the young virgins for their own use, that would be a good argument for subjective morality. Even most Christians would think that would be terrible if committed today.

Because I have empathy, I find the idea of killing innocent non-combatants and raping their daughters to be immoral. The God of the Old Testament felt those actions were moral so it is my subjective opinion that my morality is superior to the God of the OT.

When you answer these I'll answer yours from a christian perspective.

I assume that you'll say something like 'God is mysterious' or 'we cannot understand his will'. If so, I call BS.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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8/10/2016 2:09:58 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 9:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:51:14 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

All of the above, assuming that god is the all-powerful, sole creator of the universe. Every act that is subject to judgment (which is all of them) is the result of god's will. The notions of good and evil are a product of the creation within the confines of the human disposition, and the terms are entirely relative to each other within it. From outside of the creation, the notions of good and evil aren't applicable: since they are co-dependent, relative terms, they are not applicable in a scenario in which only one entity exists.

Interesting ideation. I generally say doing God's will is Good, going against God;s will is evil. Therefore by definition nothing God does is Evil.

You and ISIS agree on that point.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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8/10/2016 2:14:19 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 10:40:18 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 8/9/2016 10:09:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:51:14 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

All of the above, assuming that god is the all-powerful, sole creator of the universe. Every act that is subject to judgment (which is all of them) is the result of god's will. The notions of good and evil are a product of the creation within the confines of the human disposition, and the terms are entirely relative to each other within it. From outside of the creation, the notions of good and evil aren't applicable: since they are co-dependent, relative terms, they are not applicable in a scenario in which only one entity exists.

Interesting ideation. I generally say doing God's will is Good, going against God;s will is evil. Therefore by definition nothing God does is Evil.

That is assuming you know what God's will is and as a Christian His will to you is articulated in the Bible. So how do you deal with the contradictions and controversies found in the bible? The fact that there are 32,000 denominations of Christians is further evidence God's will is not unanimously followed.
And if you are a Jehovah's Witness, you believe all 32,000 denominations of Christians are wrong.
And if you are an atheists, you believe all 32,000 denominations of Christians plus the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong.
God must be evil to create confusion in the minds of those who want to believe in Him.

Show me the confusion between what Jesus and Paul taught that support 32,000 denominations and I will show you what they really taught, which is unity, one accord, one mind, one God, one purpose, singularities, no divisions.....
"Denominations" are man made, they have no bearing on pure scripture. They are preferences and opinions, that is it.

It's not about religions or doctrines anyways, rather APPLICATION. Good Lord this is gonna take awhile...

If one needs to ask someone else to interpret the meaning, obviously it was incompetently written. I have wrote company Standard Operating Procedures manuals and nobody was confused by my meaning; therefore, I am a superior communicator than the authors of the Bible.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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8/10/2016 2:16:46 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 10:44:03 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

Why did God make nature so beautiful and delicate?

That's a weird question. How does that answer the question?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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8/10/2016 2:27:22 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:08:43 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:08:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

What about nature is destructive and/or violent?

Tornadoes, droughts, hurricanes, etc.

Okay i'll agree.


What about being destructive infers morally evil?

It wouldn't be morally evil if it was something that could not be helped. The problem is that theists say that God is all-powerful. If he is able to save deaths of peoples loved ones and caretakers/providers (without whom some starve), why wouldn't he?

It is not the tornado that kills someone that is evil. Its that it is asserted that it could be stopped but simply isn't bothered with.

Okay if it can;t be helped would that make it "Good"? yeah let's say god is all powerful and directly causes every storm, every rainfall, every breeze, every implanted seed, ect...

Then What makes the storm God creates "Evil" and the gentle rain on crops "Good"?


How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?

Because I have empathy and I don't like to see my fellow human beings suffering. Obviously, I care more about strangers than God does for the people that beg and plead to him for help.

So your "Good" is an extension of empathy and aversion from pain?. Do you think it is ever good to suffer?

So a baby is evil when it causes pain to the mother? A Father is Evil when he slaps the hand of his son? A pitcher is Evil when a ball is thrown into someones face?

Evil is intimately involved with pain?


Does empathy and compassion keep you from killing a cow? stepping on a spider?

No, because empathy evolved to primarily be directed at ones own tribe/family (humans). I can provide sources if this is debated.

Well then God isn't evil. God is not human therefore Your "Pain averting empathetic evolved intention good" doesn't apply to God. In the Same way Your "good" doesn't apply to ants.


Why should i think that your moral judgement and assertions of what is and is not Evil is superior to a possibly real God?

Since Moses thought it was moral to have his men kill innocent non-combatants and spare the young virgins for their own use, that would be a good argument for subjective morality. Even most Christians would think that would be terrible if committed today.

I think putting fluoride in the water is terrible today. 10 years ago it was a health booster from aluminum manufacturing waste scrapped from the inside of cooling towers. 20 years from now they will think it crazy townships paid to have poison dumped into their water supply.

Do you think it appropriate to plow a field mid summer? Or to plant seeds in the winter? I see you want to argue subjective but all you are expressing is that time is has a bigger influence on consensus than facts.

If there is an objective morality it still doesn't follow that people through out all of time would follow it. After all they do have the choice to do wrong and call it good. Like abortion. Or fluoride water, or cutting penises off as a treatment for depression.

you don;t make any point because I can point to a time in the past when X action was morally/immorally labeled and what you think is "Good" is logically unethical and will probably be called a terrible act in the future.

It's you who is arguing for a subjective morality which then only ruins the OP's case. Because then God is not good or evil, only relative to your subjective temporal fleeting "morality"


Because I have empathy, I find the idea of killing innocent non-combatants and raping their daughters to be immoral. The God of the Old Testament felt those actions were moral so it is my subjective opinion that my morality is superior to the God of the OT.

Okay well thanks for clarifying it I your opinion of your own moral superiority. How can argue with your judgements.


When you answer these I'll answer yours from a christian perspective.

I assume that you'll say something like 'God is mysterious' or 'we cannot understand his will'. If so, I call BS.

Some would explain this by reminding that in the Christina religion there is "The Fall". An incident that brought the world out of whack and invited the world to plunge into corruption. A disease of sorts the world is still feeling the effects from.
KIND
Posts: 14
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8/10/2016 2:28:11 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

Are you vegetarian
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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8/10/2016 2:28:33 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 9:08:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?
I know this wasn't directed at me - but I wanted to comment.

What about nature is destructive and/or violent?
Hurricanes, tornados, lightening, tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanos, not to mention predatory animals and how they stalk and kill their prey.

What about being destructive infers morally evil?
What about being destructive infers moral goodness?

How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?
I am not an Atheist, but I'm not in agreement with the way most Christian interpret OT. I argue the morality of God based on what he expects of us as far as morality.

Does empathy and compassion keep you from killing a cow?
yes, I eat beef, but if I had to physically kill the cow myself I doubt I would.
stepping on a spider?
Yes, I place it in a jar and put it outside if it is poisonous, if it is harmless, I apologize to it when I clean for destroying it's web.


Why should i think that your moral judgement and assertions of what is and is not Evil is superior to a possibly real God?
Since mankind has partaken in the knowledge of good and evil, supposedly since Adam and Eve, we have conscience.

When you answer these I'll answer yours from a christian perspective.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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8/10/2016 2:31:07 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:09:58 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:51:14 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

All of the above, assuming that god is the all-powerful, sole creator of the universe. Every act that is subject to judgment (which is all of them) is the result of god's will. The notions of good and evil are a product of the creation within the confines of the human disposition, and the terms are entirely relative to each other within it. From outside of the creation, the notions of good and evil aren't applicable: since they are co-dependent, relative terms, they are not applicable in a scenario in which only one entity exists.

Interesting ideation. I generally say doing God's will is Good, going against God;s will is evil. Therefore by definition nothing God does is Evil.

You and ISIS agree on that point.

Is that an insult? how cute.

While we can agree on how 2 words are defined it does not we agree on what the Will of God is.

You and ISIS probably agree on some things as well.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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8/10/2016 2:32:30 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 1:37:28 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 11:56:43 PM, janesix wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:08:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

What about nature is destructive and/or violent?

Animals kill each other for food. This involves pain and suffering. Animals eat each other alive.

okay I'll agree there. nature is violent and destructive by definition.


What about being destructive infers morally evil?
The intent to create a world that depends on pain and suffering for survival.

Survival doesn't depend on pain and suffering. Maybe i don't understand you because you aren't using good English. See when you say X "depends on" Y... what you are saying Y is a requirement for X.

Pain and suffering are a by product of 2 sides struggling to live. but sustaining life doesn't need pain. Pain is a natural by product.

Are you saying for things to survive they must feel pain and suffering?

But back to the original question.. What about that is "Evil"?


How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?
I am not an atheist.

how are you morally superior to God? Can you raise yourself from the dead?


Does empathy and compassion keep you from killing a cow? stepping on a spider?
Sometimes. Mostly not. In fact i am a coward and depend on others to kill my food for me.

So you are condemning the action of inflicting death and suffering while at the same time you do it yourself.


Why should i think that your moral judgement and assertions of what is and is not Evil is superior to a possibly real God?

I dont think you should. I think god us both good and evil, just like every human being.

Please define Good and Evil.

And yet you miss my point. You made they assertion that (in a round about way) that god is evil because he made nature with destruction and suffering, which is Evil.

But why should I accept this assertion? Why should I accept your description of such things are evil?

And that's meeting you have way because for the sake of argument I won't ask for you to support the claim that god made it that way.
((let's forget the Judaeo christian concept of the fall.))


When you answer these I'll answer yours from a christian perspective.

When you tell me why that stuff is Evil, then I can address whether or not this means God is evil.

Your asking for a please explain.
Your asking why you should except this essertion.
And in the same post you claim that something raised itself from the dead.
Raised from the dead. Your kidding ain't ya.
You believe in God, You should be a pro at excepting essertions. It's the mother of all essertions. Anyway .
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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8/10/2016 2:41:35 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:32:30 AM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 8/10/2016 1:37:28 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 11:56:43 PM, janesix wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:08:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

What about nature is destructive and/or violent?

Animals kill each other for food. This involves pain and suffering. Animals eat each other alive.

okay I'll agree there. nature is violent and destructive by definition.


What about being destructive infers morally evil?
The intent to create a world that depends on pain and suffering for survival.

Survival doesn't depend on pain and suffering. Maybe i don't understand you because you aren't using good English. See when you say X "depends on" Y... what you are saying Y is a requirement for X.

Pain and suffering are a by product of 2 sides struggling to live. but sustaining life doesn't need pain. Pain is a natural by product.

Are you saying for things to survive they must feel pain and suffering?

But back to the original question.. What about that is "Evil"?


How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?
I am not an atheist.

how are you morally superior to God? Can you raise yourself from the dead?


Does empathy and compassion keep you from killing a cow? stepping on a spider?
Sometimes. Mostly not. In fact i am a coward and depend on others to kill my food for me.

So you are condemning the action of inflicting death and suffering while at the same time you do it yourself.


Why should i think that your moral judgement and assertions of what is and is not Evil is superior to a possibly real God?

I dont think you should. I think god us both good and evil, just like every human being.

Please define Good and Evil.

And yet you miss my point. You made they assertion that (in a round about way) that god is evil because he made nature with destruction and suffering, which is Evil.

But why should I accept this assertion? Why should I accept your description of such things are evil?

And that's meeting you have way because for the sake of argument I won't ask for you to support the claim that god made it that way.
((let's forget the Judaeo christian concept of the fall.))


When you answer these I'll answer yours from a christian perspective.

When you tell me why that stuff is Evil, then I can address whether or not this means God is evil.

Your asking for a please explain.
Your asking why you should except this essertion.
And in the same post you claim that something raised itself from the dead.
Raised from the dead. Your kidding ain't ya.
You believe in God, You should be a pro at excepting essertions. It's the mother of all essertions. Anyway .

Okay Violence in nature is good. It encourages the adaptation of novel features to survive.

Without the destruction and violence rampant in nature there would be no driving force of "Fitness". no criteria for mating selection. No mechanism to weed out from the population harmful genetic flaws.

So Based on a Secular Evolutionary view, Nature is NOT EVIL.

Death destruction and pain ARE GOOD.
matt8800
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8/10/2016 2:59:03 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:27:22 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:08:43 AM, matt8800 wrote:

It is not the tornado that kills someone that is evil. Its that it is asserted that it could be stopped but simply isn't bothered with.

Okay if it can;t be helped would that make it "Good"? yeah let's say god is all powerful and directly causes every storm, every rainfall, every breeze, every implanted seed, ect...

Then What makes the storm God creates "Evil" and the gentle rain on crops "Good"?

If I had the ability to stop something that was happening that was going to kill my children, I would. Any sane, moral person would.

If my child was playing in the street and I saw a car coming, I would save my child. Most people would consider me evil if I simply sat and watched the car kill my child.


How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?

Because I have empathy and I don't like to see my fellow human beings suffering. Obviously, I care more about strangers than God does for the people that beg and plead to him for help.

So your "Good" is an extension of empathy and aversion from pain?. Do you think it is ever good to suffer?

Sometimes we can learn from pain. For example, if we touch the stove, we learn it is hot and should be careful about touching it. If someone is burned alive in a forest fire, they didn't learn anything. Maybe one could try to argue that there was some good that will come to the child of the person that was killed by learning some lesson he could not have learned otherwise. Psychiatrists would say that the child would experience a net negative from losing their parent in the fire.


So a baby is evil when it causes pain to the mother?

If the baby was all powerful and all knowing, then yes, it would be evil for the baby to cause pain to the mother. I'm not sure why you would compare a baby's capabilities to God's though.

A Father is Evil when he slaps the hand of his son?

No, the question would be is the father evil if he kills his child.

A pitcher is Evil when a ball is thrown into someones face?

If the pitcher was all knowing and all powerful, then yes, it would be bad for the pitcher to throw the ball at someone's face.


Evil is intimately involved with pain?

Only when it is intentionally caused.


Does empathy and compassion keep you from killing a cow? stepping on a spider?

No, because empathy evolved to primarily be directed at ones own tribe/family (humans). I can provide sources if this is debated.

Well then God isn't evil. God is not human therefore Your "Pain averting empathetic evolved intention good" doesn't apply to God. In the Same way Your "good" doesn't apply to ants.

The Christian God would just as soon kill and torture us like a boy burns ants with a magnifying glass for entertainment. Apparently, he purposely makes people with the full knowledge he will burn and torture them for the crime of being born into the wrong religion.


Why should i think that your moral judgement and assertions of what is and is not Evil is superior to a possibly real God?

Since Moses thought it was moral to have his men kill innocent non-combatants and spare the young virgins for their own use, that would be a good argument for subjective morality. Even most Christians would think that would be terrible if committed today.

I think putting fluoride in the water is terrible today. 10 years ago it was a health booster from aluminum manufacturing waste scrapped from the inside of cooling towers. 20 years from now they will think it crazy townships paid to have poison dumped into their water supply.

OK, are you saying that rape is like fluoride? Please elaborate.

Do you think it appropriate to plow a field mid summer? Or to plant seeds in the winter? I see you want to argue subjective but all you are expressing is that time is has a bigger influence on consensus than facts.

If there is an objective morality it still doesn't follow that people through out all of time would follow it. After all they do have the choice to do wrong and call it good. Like abortion. Or fluoride water, or cutting penises off as a treatment for depression.

you don;t make any point because I can point to a time in the past when X action was morally/immorally labeled and what you think is "Good" is logically unethical and will probably be called a terrible act in the future.

It's you who is arguing for a subjective morality which then only ruins the OP's case. Because then God is not good or evil, only relative to your subjective temporal fleeting "morality"

I specifically said it is my subjective opinion that my morality is superior to your god's in the paragraph below. Keep reading ;)


Because I have empathy, I find the idea of killing innocent non-combatants and raping their daughters to be immoral. The God of the Old Testament felt those actions were moral so it is my subjective opinion that my morality is superior to the God of the OT.

Okay well thanks for clarifying it I your opinion of your own moral superiority. How can argue with your judgements.

Exactly. Would you be able to tell an Aztec that human sacrifice is wrong? Would I have been able to tell Moses that he should tell his men to kill and rape innocents? Would anyone have been able to tell the alleged god that he should not kill 42 children for making fun of a bald man? Everyone has their own subjective opinion.



When you answer these I'll answer yours from a christian perspective.

I assume that you'll say something like 'God is mysterious' or 'we cannot understand his will'. If so, I call BS.

Some would explain this by reminding that in the Christina religion there is "The Fall". An incident that brought the world out of whack and invited the world to plunge into corruption. A disease of sorts the world is still feeling the effects from.

That doesn't change the claim that god is all powerful and all knowing. If somehow he could not intervene due to some 'fall', then he is not all powerful.
matt8800
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8/10/2016 3:02:45 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:31:07 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:09:58 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:51:14 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

All of the above, assuming that god is the all-powerful, sole creator of the universe. Every act that is subject to judgment (which is all of them) is the result of god's will. The notions of good and evil are a product of the creation within the confines of the human disposition, and the terms are entirely relative to each other within it. From outside of the creation, the notions of good and evil aren't applicable: since they are co-dependent, relative terms, they are not applicable in a scenario in which only one entity exists.

Interesting ideation. I generally say doing God's will is Good, going against God;s will is evil. Therefore by definition nothing God does is Evil.

You and ISIS agree on that point.

Is that an insult? how cute.

While we can agree on how 2 words are defined it does not we agree on what the Will of God is.


Even when I was a Christian, I saw the irony that everyone was so certain that their religion was the right one and everyone else was wrong. That is what started my desire to dig deeper.
matt8800
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8/10/2016 3:09:09 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:41:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:

Okay Violence in nature is good. It encourages the adaptation of novel features to survive.

Without the destruction and violence rampant in nature there would be no driving force of "Fitness". no criteria for mating selection. No mechanism to weed out from the population harmful genetic flaws.

So Based on a Secular Evolutionary view, Nature is NOT EVIL.

Death destruction and pain ARE GOOD.

BS and you know it. Prove me wrong and find one respected biologist that is a proponent of causing pain and destruction.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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8/10/2016 3:23:31 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:59:03 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:27:22 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:08:43 AM, matt8800 wrote:

It is not the tornado that kills someone that is evil. Its that it is asserted that it could be stopped but simply isn't bothered with.

Okay if it can;t be helped would that make it "Good"? yeah let's say god is all powerful and directly causes every storm, every rainfall, every breeze, every implanted seed, ect...

Then What makes the storm God creates "Evil" and the gentle rain on crops "Good"?

If I had the ability to stop something that was happening that was going to kill my children, I would. Any sane, moral person would.

If my child was playing in the street and I saw a car coming, I would save my child. Most people would consider me evil if I simply sat and watched the car kill my child.

Yeah I already thanked you for acknowledging that this is how you argue moral cases.

What you would do is morally "good". It's like you are a perfect person.

but now you bring in the Mob rule. If 100 people around you thought you picking your nails were "evil" would you adopt such a position?

If what a lot of other people think is a determining factor in what "Good" or "Evil" is then kidnapping and rapping virgins was "good" at that time.



How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?

Because I have empathy and I don't like to see my fellow human beings suffering. Obviously, I care more about strangers than God does for the people that beg and plead to him for help.

So your "Good" is an extension of empathy and aversion from pain?. Do you think it is ever good to suffer?

Sometimes we can learn from pain. For example, if we touch the stove, we learn it is hot and should be careful about touching it. If someone is burned alive in a forest fire, they didn't learn anything. Maybe one could try to argue that there was some good that will come to the child of the person that was killed by learning some lesson he could not have learned otherwise. Psychiatrists would say that the child would experience a net negative from losing their parent in the fire.

So pain and suffering can be present in both Good and Evil events? Then again in your own morally perfect words what discerns that one event is "Evil" and another "Good".

Oh yeah what you would do in the event is Good. That sounds a lot like a God complex. Wait so by your same standard God is not "Evil". because God is merely following his intentions and calling them "Good" like you do. Only God is greatly more powerful.



So a baby is evil when it causes pain to the mother?

If the baby was all powerful and all knowing, then yes, it would be evil for the baby to cause pain to the mother. I'm not sure why you would compare a baby's capabilities to God's though.

A Father is Evil when he slaps the hand of his son?

No, the question would be is the father evil if he kills his child.

Ealier you said if the baby had the ability to come out with out causing pain then it would be good. And yet now you say the father is only evil if he kills the son?

Now you're all over the place. What constitutes an act being Evil? is it the presence of pain? is it what you would do or not do? is it what majority dictates? does it have to cause death?

I'm simply asking what makes the storm "Evil"? What makes the lion eating the antelope "Evil"?


A pitcher is Evil when a ball is thrown into someones face?

If the pitcher was all knowing and all powerful, then yes, it would be bad for the pitcher to throw the ball at someone's face.

Okay so say you. What if I said it was a good thing. You know just asserted it with no reason. Why should I accept it is a bad thing?



Evil is intimately involved with pain?

Only when it is intentionally caused.

So intentionally caused pain is a bad thing. What about when a boxer hits an opponents face? That's definitely "Evil".

When the tax place collects money from me, that intentionally hurts. I knew taxes were "Evil".

I mean why did God all powerful even give us "pain" such an Evil God. Pain doesn't do us any good. Right? that's what you are suggesting?
Mhykiel
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8/10/2016 3:24:48 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 3:02:45 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:31:07 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:09:58 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:09:30 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:51:14 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

All of the above, assuming that god is the all-powerful, sole creator of the universe. Every act that is subject to judgment (which is all of them) is the result of god's will. The notions of good and evil are a product of the creation within the confines of the human disposition, and the terms are entirely relative to each other within it. From outside of the creation, the notions of good and evil aren't applicable: since they are co-dependent, relative terms, they are not applicable in a scenario in which only one entity exists.

Interesting ideation. I generally say doing God's will is Good, going against God;s will is evil. Therefore by definition nothing God does is Evil.

You and ISIS agree on that point.

Is that an insult? how cute.

While we can agree on how 2 words are defined it does not we agree on what the Will of God is.


Even when I was a Christian, I saw the irony that everyone was so certain that their religion was the right one and everyone else was wrong. That is what started my desire to dig deeper.

And by deeper you mean.. You are now god of yourself. Your edicts and judgements rational, and morally good.
Mhykiel
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8/10/2016 3:36:30 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 3:09:09 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:41:35 AM, Mhykiel wrote:

Okay Violence in nature is good. It encourages the adaptation of novel features to survive.

Without the destruction and violence rampant in nature there would be no driving force of "Fitness". no criteria for mating selection. No mechanism to weed out from the population harmful genetic flaws.

So Based on a Secular Evolutionary view, Nature is NOT EVIL.

Death destruction and pain ARE GOOD.

BS and you know it. Prove me wrong and find one respected biologist that is a proponent of causing pain and destruction.

Okay so from a secular and evolutionist view point it is tooo obvious that pain is a beneficial mutation adopted by the majority of animals on Earth.

It is a chemical reaction to cellular destruction that aids an organism in being aware of life threatening and dangerous conditions.

But if you want a Scientific Paper peer reviewed and published by an evolutionary Biologist...

Pain as an evolutionary necessity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

http://www.socrethics.com...

http://www.vdt.ugent.be...

http://www-personal.umich.edu...

Evolutionary pain must have some great benefit. The ability is grossly over represented in every population from worms to birds.

Clearly pain and suffering are GOOD things, that increase the fitness of species and life on Earth. This is scientific conclusion.
janesix
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8/10/2016 4:01:17 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/10/2016 1:37:28 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 11:56:43 PM, janesix wrote:
At 8/9/2016 9:08:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

What about nature is destructive and/or violent?

Animals kill each other for food. This involves pain and suffering. Animals eat each other alive.

okay I'll agree there. nature is violent and destructive by definition.


What about being destructive infers morally evil?
The intent to create a world that depends on pain and suffering for survival.

Survival doesn't depend on pain and suffering. Maybe i don't understand you because you aren't using good English. See when you say X "depends on" Y... what you are saying Y is a requirement for X.

Pain and suffering are a by product of 2 sides struggling to live. but sustaining life doesn't need pain. Pain is a natural by product.

Why didn't god create a world where animals don't have to kill and eat each other to survive? Plants don't need to kill others and cause them pain and suffering to survive. They use photosynthesis to create their own food from sunlight. No one gets hurt. There are even some animals who use photosynthesis for making their own energy, instead of killing and eating each other alive. why didn't God make all animals this way?

http://umich.uloop.com...

Are you saying for things to survive they must feel pain and suffering?

But back to the original question.. What about that is "Evil"?

It seems evil to me to intentionally create a world based on pain and suffering for survival. You don't think the suffering of animals is bad? What about the suffering of humans caused by nature? Parasites, cancer, viruses.


How does an Atheist argue the morality of God by applying their own moral ruleset?
I am not an atheist.

how are you morally superior to God? Can you raise yourself from the dead?

When did I say I was?


Does empathy and compassion keep you from killing a cow? stepping on a spider?
Sometimes. Mostly not. In fact i am a coward and depend on others to kill my food for me.

So you are condemning the action of inflicting death and suffering while at the same time you do it yourself.

Yes. Did I say I had no evil in me? Every human does, and probably some of the higher mammals do too.


Why should i think that your moral judgement and assertions of what is and is not Evil is superior to a possibly real God?

I dont think you should. I think god us both good and evil, just like every human being.

Please define Good and Evil.

Evil: The intention to inflict pain and suffering when there are better options.

And yet you miss my point. You made they assertion that (in a round about way) that god is evil because he made nature with destruction and suffering, which is Evil.

But why should I accept this assertion? Why should I accept your description of such things are evil?

If God could have created life where there was no unnecessary pain and suffering, that is an act of evil. That doesn't necessarily mean God is evil, just that he can be capable of evil.

And that's meeting you have way because for the sake of argument I won't ask for you to support the claim that god made it that way.
((let's forget the Judaeo christian concept of the fall.))


When you answer these I'll answer yours from a christian perspective.

When you tell me why that stuff is Evil, then I can address whether or not this means God is evil.
Fatihah
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8/10/2016 4:02:39 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/9/2016 8:24:45 PM, janesix wrote:
If not, why did god make nature so violent and destructive?

Response: No. We chose to be humans and be tested in this world and be judged in the Hereafter based on our deeds in order to be rewarded in the Hereafter. So when we are born, your soul is placed in the body, and you are human. The memory of you being asked to be in this world is washed away and the test begins.