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Still-born Babies In Limbo?

Willows
Posts: 2,068
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8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?
rextr05
Posts: 215
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8/10/2016 6:40:33 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Catholic doctrine used to, don't know if they still do tho, say that babies that weren't baptized went to limbo. But scripture tells us that is not the case since baptism of the Holy Spirit is the one that matters. Baptism by water, as some babies & others experience later in life is only an public expression of one's acceptance of Jesus & Christianity. No where in the bible does it say one has to baptized by water to gain acceptance into heaven. Matter of fact, it states that those that are incapable of knowing right from wrong, will gain heavenly reward. (I paraphrased cuz I don't have time right now to look it up). Luke 18:15-17 "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." & there are other verse that suggest the same about those not capable of rational decisions.

Ya see, one has to make a conscious decision to accept Jesus, so how would the baptism of an infant do anything, since that baby is incapable of making decisions such as that? If Catholic baptism was the only way to gain acceptance, only Catholics would be eligible to get into heaven. & since that's not in the bible either, one can say that it isn't so. I used to be a Catholic & also went to 9 years of Catholic school. Years after that, I began to study the bible & found many misconceptions of Catholic upbringing.

BTW, there is no Purgatory. Catholic doctrine made that one up.

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?

See answer above re those incapable of distinguishing right from wrong.
rextr05
Posts: 215
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8/10/2016 7:04:00 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:

After perusing some other discussions here, it appears that you are very critical of the belief of God. Methinks, you may have trolling tendencies re the question you have asked here huh?
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/10/2016 7:14:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?

It simply means that the unborn baby's soul will spend all eternity trying to dance under a high jump bar.
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/10/2016 7:31:49 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?
Stillborn children go to Heaven. The concept of "Limbo" is a Roman Catholic lie.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/10/2016 7:35:14 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:31:49 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?
Stillborn children go to Heaven. The concept of "Limbo" is a Roman Catholic lie.

Who's lie is heaven?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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8/10/2016 7:43:31 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?

It is unknown. Limbo is a theological concept for which the reality is unknown. Normatively, it requires baptism to be washed clean of all sin including original sin. Unless, God acts outside of the normative means of redemption, a soul stained with sin cannot enter heaven.

Thus the soul would go to hell. However, the pains of hell have to do with the personal sins of the individual. As the very young never had the opportunity to accept or reject God, they cannot be held accountable for their sins. Thus limbo is an existence outside of heaven where the subject would experience perfect natural happiness for eternity, but never supernatural joy.

There are alternative theologies regarding these individuals. Since it isn't part of revelation, we cannot ever know for sure.
Willows
Posts: 2,068
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8/11/2016 10:45:26 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:04:00 PM, rextr05 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:

After perusing some other discussions here, it appears that you are very critical of the belief of God. Methinks, you may have trolling tendencies re the question you have asked here huh?

Would you like to share with everyone how being critical of the belief of God or raising a very serious topic constitutes trolling?
Willows
Posts: 2,068
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8/11/2016 10:51:50 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:31:49 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?
Stillborn children go to Heaven. The concept of "Limbo" is a Roman Catholic lie.

I was wondering that since a life was never born, is there a soul that goes to heaven, or to go a bit further, at what point does a foetus aquire a soul?
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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8/11/2016 2:40:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 10:51:50 AM, Willows wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:31:49 PM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?
Stillborn children go to Heaven. The concept of "Limbo" is a Roman Catholic lie.

I was wondering that since a life was never born, is there a soul that goes to heaven, or to go a bit further, at what point does a foetus aquire a soul?
A fetus acquires a soul at the moment of conception. And there is a soul that goes to Heaven.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
Throwback
Posts: 421
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8/11/2016 2:45:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?

I could answer that from a Catholic perspective. However, former Catholics have already spoken on my behalf and decided for me what my religion holds, despite the fact they disliked it and vacated it.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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8/11/2016 3:11:02 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:43:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?


It is unknown. Limbo is a theological concept for which the reality is unknown.

Which would put it in the same category as Heaven, Hell, archangels, etc.

Normatively, it requires baptism to be washed clean of all sin including original sin.
Unless, God acts outside of the normative means of redemption, a soul stained with sin cannot enter heaven.

It fills me with great joy to see Catholic church upon Catholic church increasingly vacant. Nowadays there are not that many grown up westerners who can stomach the vile theology you've just described.


Thus the soul would go to hell. However, the pains of hell have to do with the personal sins of the individual.

Oh, I see now.

Catholics discovered an obvious flaw in the whole original sin/vicarious redemption theodicy. Instead of acknowledging there is no solution to the problem as presented in the alleged word of God, they proceeded to come up with an ad hoc fix up.

Bravo.

As the very young never had the opportunity to accept or reject God, they cannot be held accountable for their sins.

And yet God is said to have murdered all of mankind minus Noah's family, which would mean God had drown to death the very young and even the unborn.
Go figure.

Thus limbo is an existence outside of heaven where the subject would experience perfect natural happiness for eternity, but never supernatural joy.

Yes, I think it's plain and obvious what Limbo is.
Except to Catholics in good standing, tat is.


There are alternative theologies regarding these individuals. Since it isn't part of revelation, we cannot ever know for sure.

And yet it played an important role in Catholic theology for many centuries.
Oh, papal infallibility, where ist thou?
rextr05
Posts: 215
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8/11/2016 4:19:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 10:45:26 AM, Willows wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:04:00 PM, rextr05 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:

After perusing some other discussions here, it appears that you are very critical of the belief of God. Methinks, you may have trolling tendencies re the question you have asked here huh?

Would you like to share with everyone how being critical of the belief of God or raising a very serious topic constitutes trolling?

Not in that manner, it's the serious manner in which you posed the question on this thread. It made the reader feel that you want clarification, rather than just a chancve to refute what they say.

I see that you have not responded to my answer to your question tho.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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8/11/2016 4:24:31 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 3:11:02 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:43:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?


It is unknown. Limbo is a theological concept for which the reality is unknown.

Which would put it in the same category as Heaven, Hell, archangels, etc.

One has been divinely revealed, the other is a logical conclusion.

Normatively, it requires baptism to be washed clean of all sin including original sin.
Unless, God acts outside of the normative means of redemption, a soul stained with sin cannot enter heaven.

It fills me with great joy to see Catholic church upon Catholic church increasingly vacant. Nowadays there are not that many grown up westerners who can stomach the vile theology you've just described.

So we have a bunch of "adults" with weak constitutions who don't want to walk the narrow road.

Thus the soul would go to hell. However, the pains of hell have to do with the personal sins of the individual.

Oh, I see now.

Catholics discovered an obvious flaw in the whole original sin/vicarious redemption theodicy. Instead of acknowledging there is no solution to the problem as presented in the alleged word of God, they proceeded to come up with an ad hoc fix up.

Bravo.

No problem, merely a lack of ability to fully comprehend.

As the very young never had the opportunity to accept or reject God, they cannot be held accountable for their sins.

And yet God is said to have murdered all of mankind minus Noah's family, which would mean God had drown to death the very young and even the unborn.
Go figure.

By definition God cannot murder. Murder is illegal killing. As God is the author of earthly life, He has the right to bring this earthly life to an end. Additionally, your soul is immortal. You don't truly die, you merely enter the eternal state you have chosen for yourself.

Thus limbo is an existence outside of heaven where the subject would experience perfect natural happiness for eternity, but never supernatural joy.

Yes, I think it's plain and obvious what Limbo is.
Except to Catholics in good standing, tat is.

Yay, more pronouncements by atheists who love to criticize but cannot support anything.

There are alternative theologies regarding these individuals. Since it isn't part of revelation, we cannot ever know for sure.

And yet it played an important role in Catholic theology for many centuries.

Yes it was. That is why children were baptized within a day of being born, and children still born would sometimes be baptized by the parents as they did not know when the soul left the body. They took their faith seriously and trusted in God.

Oh, papal infallibility, where ist thou?

Right where it has always been. The fate of unbaptized innocents is not an issue of heresy nor of necessary belief. As such no Pope has infallibly declared on it.
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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8/11/2016 5:54:53 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 4:24:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/11/2016 3:11:02 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:43:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?


It is unknown. Limbo is a theological concept for which the reality is unknown.

Which would put it in the same category as Heaven, Hell, archangels, etc.

One has been divinely revealed, the other is a logical conclusion.

They're in the same category.


Normatively, it requires baptism to be washed clean of all sin including original sin.
Unless, God acts outside of the normative means of redemption, a soul stained with sin cannot enter heaven.

It fills me with great joy to see Catholic church upon Catholic church increasingly vacant. Nowadays there are not that many grown up westerners who can stomach the vile theology you've just described.

So we have a bunch of "adults" with weak constitutions who don't want to walk the narrow road.

Oh, cute,
People who do not agree with you cannot be deemed "adults".
I give your theology the middle finger and celebrate with enthusiasm the decline of the Catholic church in the West, especially in Europe.

Thus the soul would go to hell. However, the pains of hell have to do with the personal sins of the individual.

Oh, I see now.

Catholics discovered an obvious flaw in the whole original sin/vicarious redemption theodicy. Instead of acknowledging there is no solution to the problem as presented in the alleged word of God, they proceeded to come up with an ad hoc fix up.

Bravo.

No problem, merely a lack of ability to fully comprehend.

I fully understand the logic and moral pitfall Catholics have attempted to escape from.
Catholics enrolled a creative writing course and Limbo was born.


As the very young never had the opportunity to accept or reject God, they cannot be held accountable for their sins.

And yet God is said to have murdered all of mankind minus Noah's family, which would mean God had drown to death the very young and even the unborn.
Go figure.

By definition God cannot murder.

Hilarious.
The God of the Bible is a murderous God and no amount of arbitrary axiomatic exclusion will ever rescue Him.
Unless, of course, you're a catholic.

Murder is illegal killing.

This is the vile despicable word game you people play.
Murder cannot be committed by God.
Ergo, God is not a murderer.

The Pope is infallible.
When the Pope can be shown to have erred, He wasn't speaking neither officially nor doctrinally.

Etc., etc.
It's pathetic.
Catholicism is intellectually bankrupt.

As God is the author of earthly life, He has the right to bring this earthly life to an end.

So the Sycophants assert.

Additionally, your soul is immortal. You don't truly die, you merely enter the eternal state you have chosen for yourself.

And Santa reads comics.


Thus limbo is an existence outside of heaven where the subject would experience perfect natural happiness for eternity, but never supernatural joy.

Yes, I think it's plain and obvious what Limbo is.
Except to Catholics in good standing, tat is.

Yay, more pronouncements by atheists who love to criticize but cannot support anything.

By your own admission, Limbo was an ad hoc attempt to remedy a logical and moral problem.
Enough said.


There are alternative theologies regarding these individuals. Since it isn't part of revelation, we cannot ever know for sure.

And yet it played an important role in Catholic theology for many centuries.

Yes it was.

I know it did. A very profitable role in the Catholic Church of infamy.

That is why children were baptized within a day of being born

A disgraceful practice.

, and children still born would sometimes be baptized by the parents as they did not know when the soul left the body. They took their faith seriously and trusted in God.

They were scaremongered into baptizing their young ones.
Profitable practice, as It was customary for families to gift the local church.

I myself was baptized as catholic. If there's a certificate of sorts around, I might use it as a door mat or toilet paper.


Oh, papal infallibility, where ist thou?

Right where it has always been.

In the fertile and highly impressionable imagination of Catholics?

The fate of unbaptized innocents is not an issue of heresy nor of necessary belief. As such no Pope has infallibly declared on it.

Thank goodness, fewer and fewer people in Europe care what the Pope has to say on anything. It's hotel lobby wallpaper one barely pays attention to.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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8/11/2016 6:51:53 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 5:54:53 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 8/11/2016 4:24:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/11/2016 3:11:02 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:43:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:
I know this may be a delicate topic for some however I was curious as to what this means:

A woman was recalling the tragic and sad event of having a still-birth. When she sought consolation from her church minister she was told that her baby's soul was "in limbo" since it had not been baptised.

From a religious point of view what does this mean? Does that soul stay in a state of purgatory or what?

Similarly, how about someone who is born so mentally deformed as to not be able to worship God, let alone acknowledge His existence. What happens to that soul when the person dies?


It is unknown. Limbo is a theological concept for which the reality is unknown.

Which would put it in the same category as Heaven, Hell, archangels, etc.

One has been divinely revealed, the other is a logical conclusion.

They're in the same category.

And yet not at all.

Normatively, it requires baptism to be washed clean of all sin including original sin.
Unless, God acts outside of the normative means of redemption, a soul stained with sin cannot enter heaven.

It fills me with great joy to see Catholic church upon Catholic church increasingly vacant. Nowadays there are not that many grown up westerners who can stomach the vile theology you've just described.

So we have a bunch of "adults" with weak constitutions who don't want to walk the narrow road.

Oh, cute,
People who do not agree with you cannot be deemed "adults".
I give your theology the middle finger and celebrate with enthusiasm the decline of the Catholic church in the West, especially in Europe.

Yup. How many of those people who leave the Church continue to live lives of self sacrifice? Why can't Europe even maintain its population - the only people having large families are by and large Catholics and immigrants. You're going to end up with Europe without Europeans.

Thus the soul would go to hell. However, the pains of hell have to do with the personal sins of the individual.

Oh, I see now.

Catholics discovered an obvious flaw in the whole original sin/vicarious redemption theodicy. Instead of acknowledging there is no solution to the problem as presented in the alleged word of God, they proceeded to come up with an ad hoc fix up.

Bravo.

No problem, merely a lack of ability to fully comprehend.

I fully understand the logic and moral pitfall Catholics have attempted to escape from.
Catholics enrolled a creative writing course and Limbo was born.

It isn't a pitfall, it is an unknown that has been theorized on.

As the very young never had the opportunity to accept or reject God, they cannot be held accountable for their sins.

And yet God is said to have murdered all of mankind minus Noah's family, which would mean God had drown to death the very young and even the unborn.
Go figure.

By definition God cannot murder.

Hilarious.
The God of the Bible is a murderous God and no amount of arbitrary axiomatic exclusion will ever rescue Him.

What is funny is that you didn't actually address the argument but made a quip instead.

Unless, of course, you're a catholic.


Murder is illegal killing.

This is the vile despicable word game you people play.
Murder cannot be committed by God.
Ergo, God is not a murderer.

No He's not. The fact that you don't want to acknowledge that the source and author of all life has legitimate authority to grant or deny life is your intellectual shortcoming, not mine.

The gardener gets to plant and pull at his discretion.

The Pope is infallible.
When the Pope can be shown to have erred, He wasn't speaking neither officially nor doctrinally.

There is a clear definition of what makes a Pope's words infallible. The fact that Catholics accept that the Pope is human and prone to erring, except when specifically acting as Pope just shows that you don't accept what Catholics teach about their own church and prefer to mischaracterize it.

Etc., etc.
It's pathetic.
Catholicism is intellectually bankrupt.

Yet to be shown by your diatribes.

As God is the author of earthly life, He has the right to bring this earthly life to an end.

So the Sycophants assert.

Logical conclusion. God is the creator and makes us for a purpose. The fact that you disagree what that purpose should be is the fact that you don't want to be a creation with certain responsibilities and you'd rather be God.

Additionally, your soul is immortal. You don't truly die, you merely enter the eternal state you have chosen for yourself.

And Santa reads comics.

Wow an intellectual comeback. Atheists on this site have no ability to actually engage in reasonable discussion anymore. Just throw around sky daddies and spaghetti monsters instead of discussing with reason and logic.

Thus limbo is an existence outside of heaven where the subject would experience perfect natural happiness for eternity, but never supernatural joy.

Yes, I think it's plain and obvious what Limbo is.
Except to Catholics in good standing, tat is.

Yay, more pronouncements by atheists who love to criticize but cannot support anything.

By your own admission, Limbo was an ad hoc attempt to remedy a logical and moral problem.
Enough said.

No I said it was a theological construct to attempt to understand that which has been revealed. It is no different than a scientific theory which attempts to pieces various physical facts together. The theory is not always right, but it may be consistent with what you currently know.

There are alternative theologies regarding these individuals. Since it isn't part of revelation, we cannot ever know for sure.

And yet it played an important role in Catholic theology for many centuries.

Yes it was.

I know it did. A very profitable role in the Catholic Church of infamy.

That is why children were baptized within a day of being born

A disgraceful practice.

Why? Newborns cannot get wet?

, and children still born would sometimes be baptized by the parents as they did not know when the soul left the body. They took their faith seriously and trusted in God.

They were scaremongered into baptizing their young ones.

Or they were faithful followers of Christ.

Profitable practice, as It was customary for families to gift the local church.

Yes, historically priests did not earn any money so they would receive a stipend from the families when performing certain ceremonies. This was purely a donation so the priest survived on the generosity of his parishioners... scandal!

I myself was baptized as catholic. If there's a certificate of sorts around, I might use it as a door mat or toilet paper.

Of course you were. That is why you are so angry at the Church. Not to worry, the indelible mark is on your soul, all you have to do is go to confession to be readmitted as a practicing member.

Oh, papal infallibility, where ist thou?

Right where it has always been.

In the fertile and highly impressionable imagination of Catholics?

Historical fact.

The fate of unbaptized innocents is not an issue of heresy nor of necessary belief. As such no Pope has infallibly declared on it.

Thank goodness, fewer and fewer people in Europe care what the Pope has to say on anything. It's hotel lobby wallpaper one barely pays attention to.
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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8/11/2016 11:11:53 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 6:51:53 PM, Geogeer wrote:

They're in the same category.

And yet not at all.

The exact same category of mental artefacts.

Normatively, it requires baptism to be washed clean of all sin including original sin.
Unless, God acts outside of the normative means of redemption, a soul stained with sin cannot enter heaven.

It fills me with great joy to see Catholic church upon Catholic church increasingly vacant. Nowadays there are not that many grown up westerners who can stomach the vile theology you've just described.

So we have a bunch of "adults" with weak constitutions who don't want to walk the narrow road.

Oh, cute,
People who do not agree with you cannot be deemed "adults".
I give your theology the middle finger and celebrate with enthusiasm the decline of the Catholic church in the West, especially in Europe.

Yup. How many of those people who leave the Church continue to live lives of self sacrifice? Why can't Europe even maintain its population - the only people having large families are by and large Catholics and immigrants. You're going to end up with Europe without Europeans.

Let people run their own lives, instead of letting the pope have sovereignty over them, including the intimate part.


Thus the soul would go to hell. However, the pains of hell have to do with the personal sins of the individual.

Oh, I see now.

Catholics discovered an obvious flaw in the whole original sin/vicarious redemption theodicy. Instead of acknowledging there is no solution to the problem as presented in the alleged word of God, they proceeded to come up with an ad hoc fix up.

Bravo.

No problem, merely a lack of ability to fully comprehend.

I fully understand the logic and moral pitfall Catholics have attempted to escape from.
Catholics enrolled a creative writing course and Limbo was born.

It isn't a pitfall,

It most definitely is. Hence the attempt to escape the moral conundrum via creative writing.

it is an unknown that has been theorized on.


A highly problematic unknown.

As the very young never had the opportunity to accept or reject God, they cannot be held accountable for their sins.

And yet God is said to have murdered all of mankind minus Noah's family, which would mean God had drown to death the very young and even the unborn.
Go figure.

By definition God cannot murder.

Hilarious.
The God of the Bible is a murderous God and no amount of arbitrary axiomatic exclusion will ever rescue Him.

What is funny is that you didn't actually address the argument but made a quip instead.

I did address it. It doesn't have to be agreement to qualify as addressing.

Unless, of course, you're a catholic.


Murder is illegal killing.

This is the vile despicable word game you people play.
Murder cannot be committed by God.
Ergo, God is not a murderer.

No He's not. The fact that you don't want to acknowledge that the source and author of all life has legitimate authority to grant or deny life is your intellectual shortcoming, not mine.

You really struggle with this , don't you?
I *DO NOT AGREE THAT AN HYPOTHETCIAL GOD CREATOR HAS COMPLETE SOVEREIGNTY OVER HUMAN LIVES*.

Did you finally get it?
Good.


The gardener gets to plant and pull at his discretion.

Human beings are not analogous to plants.
A 5-second perusal would tell you as much.


The Pope is infallible.
When the Pope can be shown to have erred, He wasn't speaking neither officially nor doctrinally.

There is a clear definition of what makes a Pope's words infallible. The fact that Catholics accept that the Pope is human and prone to erring, except when specifically acting as Pope just shows that you don't accept what Catholics teach about their own church and prefer to mischaracterize it.

20 centuries is good enough a catalogue.
The doctrine is inanity turned dogma

Catholicism is intellectually bankrupt.

Yet to be shown by your diatribes.

Our exchanges offer abundant supporting evidence.

As God is the author of earthly life, He has the right to bring this earthly life to an end.

So the Sycophants assert.

Logical conclusion.

No, it's not.
Parents author the lives of children and yet parents do not have unlimited sovereignty over their children's lives.

God is the creator and makes us for a purpose. The fact that you disagree what that purpose should be is the fact that you don't want to be a creation with certain responsibilities and you'd rather be God.

Don't be ridiculous.
I have no desire to be God.
Another petty word game from you.
I guess that an extricable part of your repertoire.

Additionally, your soul is immortal. You don't truly die, you merely enter the eternal state you have chosen for yourself.

Don't be ridiculous.
I have not chosen any eternal state.
Atheists don't believe in God's existence.
It seems you have to be reminded of even the most basic facts.

And Santa reads comics.

Wow an intellectual comeback. Atheists on this site have no ability to actually engage in reasonable discussion anymore.

Any unsubstantiated speculation on the soul is analogous to speculation on Santa's reading habits. I may highlight future figures of speech in bold , so you won't miss them.

Don't let the door hit you.
Participation around here is entirely voluntary.

Just throw around sky daddies and spaghetti monsters instead of discussing with reason and logic.

All you have on the soul is baseless assertions.
I could counter-assert all day long.

By your own admission, Limbo was an ad hoc attempt to remedy a logical and moral problem.
Enough said.

No I said it was a theological construct to attempt to understand

You don't understand by theorizing a solution. You aim to solve a problem. That's obvious.

that which has been revealed. It is no different than a scientific theory which attempts to pieces various physical facts together.

It bears almost zero similarities with a scientific theory.

And yet it played an important role in Catholic theology for many centuries.

Yes it was.

I know it did. A very profitable role in the Catholic Church of infamy.

That is why children were baptized within a day of being born

A disgraceful practice.
Why? Newborns cannot get wet?

No, because, obviously, they have no say in it.
If it's all up to the parents, a child getting baptized is a meaningless gesture.
Any God that would require your parents to act on your behalf in order for you to be saved is a petty God who fancies folklore.

, and children still born would sometimes be baptized by the parents as they did not know when the soul left the body. They took their faith seriously and trusted in God.

They were scaremongered into baptizing their young ones.

Or they were faithful followers of Christ.

Scaremongered.


Profitable practice, as It was customary for families to gift the local church.

Yes, historically priests did not earn any money so they would receive a stipend from the families when performing certain ceremonies.

Exactly.

This was purely a donation so the priest survived on the generosity of his parishioners... scandal!

It's known the Vatican is struggling to make ends meet.

I myself was baptized as catholic. If there's a certificate of sorts around, I might use it as a door mat or toilet paper.

Of course you were. That is why you are so angry at the Church. Not to worry, the indelible mark is on your soul, all you have to do is go
Willows
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8/12/2016 9:23:32 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/11/2016 4:19:43 PM, rextr05 wrote:
At 8/11/2016 10:45:26 AM, Willows wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:04:00 PM, rextr05 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 2:14:53 PM, Willows wrote:

After perusing some other discussions here, it appears that you are very critical of the belief of God. Methinks, you may have trolling tendencies re the question you have asked here huh?

Would you like to share with everyone how being critical of the belief of God or raising a very serious topic constitutes trolling?

Not in that manner, it's the serious manner in which you posed the question on this thread. It made the reader feel that you want clarification, rather than just a chancve to refute what they say.

I see that you have not responded to my answer to your question tho.

I have responded and the insinuation deserves no further response.