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The Bible supports abortion rights.

jesusismywarrior
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8/12/2016 4:43:17 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
The Bible never directly outlaws abortion. The Bible also has a few verses that might support my claim.

Exodus 21:22-25
"22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

This Bible verse only says that the penalty for hurting the WOMAN has to undergo the "eye for eye" rule. Causing her to miscarry, deserves only a fine.

Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

"3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he. 4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness. 5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other."

According to this text, it is more moral to die from miscarriage, than living an unhappy life.

Numbers 3:39-40

"39 All that were numbered of the Levites, which Moses and Aaron numbered at the commandment of the Lord, throughout their families, all the males from a month old and upward, were twenty and two thousand. 40 And the Lord said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names."

Here, God tells Moses to conduct a census of all Levite males, but he only tells him to count those who are at least one month old, therefore implying that life initiates when the baby is one month old. Maybe they're implying that the soul enters the body when one is one month old.

Genesis 2:7

"7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

This verse implies that one must breathe before one becomes alive.

Numbers 5:27

"27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people."

Earlier in Numbers, it has been stated that if a man suspects his wife of sleeping with another man, he may bring her to a priest who will create some sort of magic potion with water and dirt. The woman is then made to drink said magic potion. If she has not cheated on her husband, nothing will happen. If the woman has cheated on her husband, and is carrying another man's child, this will cause her to miscarry. This comes directly from the Lord himself, to Moses. This implies that the Lord permits abortion, if she doesn't consent to it, for cheating on her husband.
Mark 10:44-45 "44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
foxxhajti
Posts: 479
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8/12/2016 11:34:48 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/12/2016 4:43:17 PM, jesusismywarrior wrote:
The Bible never directly outlaws abortion. The Bible also has a few verses that might support my claim.

Exodus 21:22-25
"22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

This Bible verse only says that the penalty for hurting the WOMAN has to undergo the "eye for eye" rule. Causing her to miscarry, deserves only a fine.

Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

"3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he. 4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness. 5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other."

According to this text, it is more moral to die from miscarriage, than living an unhappy life.

Numbers 3:39-40

"39 All that were numbered of the Levites, which Moses and Aaron numbered at the commandment of the Lord, throughout their families, all the males from a month old and upward, were twenty and two thousand. 40 And the Lord said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names."

Here, God tells Moses to conduct a census of all Levite males, but he only tells him to count those who are at least one month old, therefore implying that life initiates when the baby is one month old. Maybe they're implying that the soul enters the body when one is one month old.

Genesis 2:7

"7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

This verse implies that one must breathe before one becomes alive.

Numbers 5:27

"27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people."

Earlier in Numbers, it has been stated that if a man suspects his wife of sleeping with another man, he may bring her to a priest who will create some sort of magic potion with water and dirt. The woman is then made to drink said magic potion. If she has not cheated on her husband, nothing will happen. If the woman has cheated on her husband, and is carrying another man's child, this will cause her to miscarry. This comes directly from the Lord himself, to Moses. This implies that the Lord permits abortion, if she doesn't consent to it, for cheating on her husband.

Pretty interesting. I'm willing to see other Christians' opinion about these verses.
"It's interesting to observe that almost all truly worthy men have simple manners, and that simple manners are almost always taken as a sign of little worth" - Giacomo Leopardi

"It is more honorable to be raised to a throne than to be born to one. Fortune bestows the one, merit obtains the other." - Francesco Petrarca

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Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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8/13/2016 12:00:51 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/12/2016 4:43:17 PM, jesusismywarrior wrote:
The Bible never directly outlaws abortion. The Bible also has a few verses that might support my claim.

Hardly, but let's see.

Exodus 21:22-25
"22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

This Bible verse only says that the penalty for hurting the WOMAN has to undergo the "eye for eye" rule. Causing her to miscarry, deserves only a fine.

That is one interpretation. Another would be that if the fruit (child) is prematurely born, but healthy (no mischief) then it is an assault for which the elders will meter out a financial compensation. If the child is wounded (mischief) then the assaulter will suffer the same fate as the child, eye for eye, life for life.

0 for 1.

Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

"3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he. 4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness. 5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other."

According to this text, it is more moral to die from miscarriage, than living an unhappy life.

Huh? It says that if the man is blessed with what was considered to be the good things of life (many children and a long life) yet he did not live a good life, then even those born into poor lives are better than he. He lived a life of vanity and he leaves in the darkness of a selfish life instead of living a life in the light of God.

0 for 2

Numbers 3:39-40

"39 All that were numbered of the Levites, which Moses and Aaron numbered at the commandment of the Lord, throughout their families, all the males from a month old and upward, were twenty and two thousand. 40 And the Lord said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names."

Here, God tells Moses to conduct a census of all Levite males, but he only tells him to count those who are at least one month old, therefore implying that life initiates when the baby is one month old. Maybe they're implying that the soul enters the body when one is one month old.

A major leap of deduction. Given that Jewish boys need to be circumcised on the 8th day it is obvious that they have personhood at least this early. It more likely has to do with the age of redemption by which time the Pidyon Haben was to be paid. Thus it seems to have to do with the first born having been "redeemed" than with their moral standing as human beings.

http://www.jewfaq.org...

0 for 3

Genesis 2:7

"7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

This verse implies that one must breathe before one becomes alive.

Actually it says that God breathed into the man. Very different than the man breathing. So no again.

0 for 4

Numbers 5:27

"27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people."

Earlier in Numbers, it has been stated that if a man suspects his wife of sleeping with another man, he may bring her to a priest who will create some sort of magic potion with water and dirt. The woman is then made to drink said magic potion. If she has not cheated on her husband, nothing will happen. If the woman has cheated on her husband, and is carrying another man's child, this will cause her to miscarry. This comes directly from the Lord himself, to Moses. This implies that the Lord permits abortion, if she doesn't consent to it, for cheating on her husband.

It isn't abortion. It is more akin to pelvic prolapse where the uterus hangs out of the woman and drips. It is rather unpleasant, and easily solved these days, but was a lifetime condition back then.

http://www.mayoclinic.org...

0 for 5

Now we can compare this to:

Luke 1:43 - "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me"

Mary has just gotten pregnant and rushed over to see Elizabeth. So she has just gotten pregnant is now a mother.

Thus it is pretty clear that if Mary was mother the mother of the LORD right from the beginning, that conception is the biblical definition of personhood.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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8/13/2016 1:19:17 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/13/2016 12:00:51 AM, Geogeer wrote:

It isn't abortion. It is more akin to pelvic prolapse where the uterus hangs out of the woman and drips. It is rather unpleasant, and easily solved these days, but was a lifetime condition back then.

http://www.mayoclinic.org...

The other examples were bad, but arguing that inducing a 'prolapse' isn't an abortion is misleading. A fetus couldn't survive such an event, especially in Biblical times.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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8/13/2016 3:39:53 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/13/2016 1:19:17 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/13/2016 12:00:51 AM, Geogeer wrote:

It isn't abortion. It is more akin to pelvic prolapse where the uterus hangs out of the woman and drips. It is rather unpleasant, and easily solved these days, but was a lifetime condition back then.

http://www.mayoclinic.org...

The other examples were bad, but arguing that inducing a 'prolapse' isn't an abortion is misleading. A fetus couldn't survive such an event, especially in Biblical times.

Who says she was pregnant? Please show me in the text where it says she was pregnant.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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8/13/2016 3:52:36 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/13/2016 3:39:53 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/13/2016 1:19:17 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/13/2016 12:00:51 AM, Geogeer wrote:

It isn't abortion. It is more akin to pelvic prolapse where the uterus hangs out of the woman and drips. It is rather unpleasant, and easily solved these days, but was a lifetime condition back then.

http://www.mayoclinic.org...

The other examples were bad, but arguing that inducing a 'prolapse' isn't an abortion is misleading. A fetus couldn't survive such an event, especially in Biblical times.

Who says she was pregnant? Please show me in the text where it says she was pregnant.

If there are no witnesses to the adultery, under what cause would the husband suspect his wife of cheating forcing her to drink a potion that would make her sterile? They didn't have condoms back then, so it's very likely a cheating wife would get pregnant.

Unless you're saying that had a pregnancy been contested (but pregnancy obvious) they wouldn't force her to drink the potion to determine guilt?
Willows
Posts: 2,058
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8/13/2016 4:03:35 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/12/2016 4:43:17 PM, jesusismywarrior wrote:
The Bible never directly outlaws abortion. The Bible also has a few verses that might support my claim.

Exodus 21:22-25
"22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

This Bible verse only says that the penalty for hurting the WOMAN has to undergo the "eye for eye" rule. Causing her to miscarry, deserves only a fine.

Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

"3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he. 4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness. 5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other."

According to this text, it is more moral to die from miscarriage, than living an unhappy life.

Numbers 3:39-40

"39 All that were numbered of the Levites, which Moses and Aaron numbered at the commandment of the Lord, throughout their families, all the males from a month old and upward, were twenty and two thousand. 40 And the Lord said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names."

Here, God tells Moses to conduct a census of all Levite males, but he only tells him to count those who are at least one month old, therefore implying that life initiates when the baby is one month old. Maybe they're implying that the soul enters the body when one is one month old.

Genesis 2:7

"7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

This verse implies that one must breathe before one becomes alive.

Numbers 5:27

"27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people."

Earlier in Numbers, it has been stated that if a man suspects his wife of sleeping with another man, he may bring her to a priest who will create some sort of magic potion with water and dirt. The woman is then made to drink said magic potion. If she has not cheated on her husband, nothing will happen. If the woman has cheated on her husband, and is carrying another man's child, this will cause her to miscarry. This comes directly from the Lord himself, to Moses. This implies that the Lord permits abortion, if she doesn't consent to it, for cheating on her husband.

So what, and does this matter when the bible has been used for centuries by those in authority to interpret what they want for their own ends.

Try and tell that to the Pope, who heads probably the most disgustingly obscene institution ever devised, and he will interpret another quote that contradicts.
He will tell you to then run along.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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8/13/2016 4:17:06 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/13/2016 3:52:36 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/13/2016 3:39:53 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/13/2016 1:19:17 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/13/2016 12:00:51 AM, Geogeer wrote:

It isn't abortion. It is more akin to pelvic prolapse where the uterus hangs out of the woman and drips. It is rather unpleasant, and easily solved these days, but was a lifetime condition back then.

http://www.mayoclinic.org...

The other examples were bad, but arguing that inducing a 'prolapse' isn't an abortion is misleading. A fetus couldn't survive such an event, especially in Biblical times.

Who says she was pregnant? Please show me in the text where it says she was pregnant.

If there are no witnesses to the adultery, under what cause would the husband suspect his wife of cheating forcing her to drink a potion that would make her sterile? They didn't have condoms back then, so it's very likely a cheating wife would get pregnant.

So you're simply assuming. The husband would have had to avoid sex with his wife for months before it would be noticeable. That in itself would be evidence. The same things would apply as today, seeing him around, talk in the community, gossip, change in behaviour.

Unless you're saying that had a pregnancy been contested (but pregnancy obvious) they wouldn't force her to drink the potion to determine guilt?

As explained above they wouldn't have to, the evidence would be self evident - pregnant when there has been no contact for months, which would likely only happen if the father wasn't around.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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8/13/2016 4:56:08 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/13/2016 4:17:06 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/13/2016 3:52:36 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/13/2016 3:39:53 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/13/2016 1:19:17 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/13/2016 12:00:51 AM, Geogeer wrote:

It isn't abortion. It is more akin to pelvic prolapse where the uterus hangs out of the woman and drips. It is rather unpleasant, and easily solved these days, but was a lifetime condition back then.

http://www.mayoclinic.org...

The other examples were bad, but arguing that inducing a 'prolapse' isn't an abortion is misleading. A fetus couldn't survive such an event, especially in Biblical times.

Who says she was pregnant? Please show me in the text where it says she was pregnant.

If there are no witnesses to the adultery, under what cause would the husband suspect his wife of cheating forcing her to drink a potion that would make her sterile? They didn't have condoms back then, so it's very likely a cheating wife would get pregnant.

So you're simply assuming. The husband would have had to avoid sex with his wife for months before it would be noticeable. That in itself would be evidence. The same things would apply as today, seeing him around, talk in the community, gossip, change in behaviour.

Unless you're saying that had a pregnancy been contested (but pregnancy obvious) they wouldn't force her to drink the potion to determine guilt?

As explained above they wouldn't have to, the evidence would be self evident - pregnant when there has been no contact for months, which would likely only happen if the father wasn't around.

It's not an assumption, its logic. You're the one assuming, no witnesses, yet gossip, no sex for months yet it's contested. If it were self evident then she wouldn't have to drink the potion. A pregnant woman can still be the subject of gossip and have a contested pregnancy. Other translations of the Bible use the word miscarry as well.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,263
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8/13/2016 5:13:58 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/13/2016 4:56:08 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/13/2016 4:17:06 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/13/2016 3:52:36 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/13/2016 3:39:53 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/13/2016 1:19:17 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/13/2016 12:00:51 AM, Geogeer wrote:

It isn't abortion. It is more akin to pelvic prolapse where the uterus hangs out of the woman and drips. It is rather unpleasant, and easily solved these days, but was a lifetime condition back then.

http://www.mayoclinic.org...

The other examples were bad, but arguing that inducing a 'prolapse' isn't an abortion is misleading. A fetus couldn't survive such an event, especially in Biblical times.

Who says she was pregnant? Please show me in the text where it says she was pregnant.

If there are no witnesses to the adultery, under what cause would the husband suspect his wife of cheating forcing her to drink a potion that would make her sterile? They didn't have condoms back then, so it's very likely a cheating wife would get pregnant.

So you're simply assuming. The husband would have had to avoid sex with his wife for months before it would be noticeable. That in itself would be evidence. The same things would apply as today, seeing him around, talk in the community, gossip, change in behaviour.

Unless you're saying that had a pregnancy been contested (but pregnancy obvious) they wouldn't force her to drink the potion to determine guilt?

As explained above they wouldn't have to, the evidence would be self evident - pregnant when there has been no contact for months, which would likely only happen if the father wasn't around.

It's not an assumption, its logic. You're the one assuming, no witnesses, yet gossip, no sex for months yet it's contested. If it were self evident then she wouldn't have to drink the potion. A pregnant woman can still be the subject of gossip and have a contested pregnancy. Other translations of the Bible use the word miscarry as well.

Then how about we stick to the specifics of the text:

http://biblehub.com...

No mention of abortion in the original Hebrew. No mention of her being pregnant. In fact if you go to the next verse it says that she will conceive. If she will conceive then she is not pregnant now.

http://biblehub.com...
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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8/13/2016 6:13:24 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/13/2016 5:13:58 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/13/2016 4:56:08 AM, Bennett91 wrote:

It's not an assumption, its logic. You're the one assuming, no witnesses, yet gossip, no sex for months yet it's contested. If it were self evident then she wouldn't have to drink the potion. A pregnant woman can still be the subject of gossip and have a contested pregnancy. Other translations of the Bible use the word miscarry as well.

Then how about we stick to the specifics of the text:

http://biblehub.com...

No mention of abortion in the original Hebrew. No mention of her being pregnant. In fact if you go to the next verse it says that she will conceive. If she will conceive then she is not pregnant now.

To be fair there's no direct mention of abortion in the Bible at all. This was God laying out what to do if there was doubts about the woman, it wasn't in reference to a specific case, God was telling Moses 'do this test if there's an accusation of adultery' He didn't add 'unless she's preggers then do this instead'.

You can't claim this test was only performed on non-pregnant women. Again a pregnant woman can still be subject to gossip, had adultery caused pregnancy - and the woman claimed innocence - the test would be done and if found guilty it would result in a miscarriage. If she was innocent while pregnant she could/will conceive (future tense).