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The two best reasons to reject Christianity

Benshapiro
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8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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8/14/2016 6:52:33 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

I agree. Would you categorize yourself as a deist?
Benshapiro
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8/14/2016 7:00:38 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 6:52:33 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

I agree. Would you categorize yourself as a deist?

I'd consider myself a theist because I subscribe to moral objectivism. If moral objectivism is true, theism -- not deism -- must be true.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/14/2016 7:02:56 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

So the biggest 2 reasons you find to reject Christianity are the doctrines therein? Not if Jesus rose from the grave or the reliability of the text itself?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/14/2016 7:12:09 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 7:02:56 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

So the biggest 2 reasons you find to reject Christianity are the doctrines therein? Not if Jesus rose from the grave or the reliability of the text itself?

Does Biblical doctrine have an accurate depiction of God? If not, why should Biblical doctrine be considered reliable?

Jesus himself spoke of "the fiery flames of hell" where there's "weeping and gnashing of teeth." If this is metaphorical, there's no way to effectively discern metaphor from literal truth. In order to be a Christian, you must believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. Is Jesus capable of lying?
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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8/14/2016 8:24:29 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 7:00:38 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2016 6:52:33 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

I agree. Would you categorize yourself as a deist?

I'd consider myself a theist because I subscribe to moral objectivism. If moral objectivism is true, theism -- not deism -- must be true.

Hi Ben.
How have you been?

It seems to me you face a problem other theists don't have to cope with. Other theists align themselves with clearly defined spiritual paths, all of which, if I'm not mistaken, you reject. You're not a Christian, you're not a Jew and you're not a Muslim.

Yet you believe in an interventionist God, which you cannot neither name nor ascribe to a particular tradition. Why hasn't this God of yours revealed Himself to mankind?
Why has this alleged God allowed other false gods to take His place? Can a God which allows myths and fabrications to spread be considered morally perfect?
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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8/14/2016 8:29:54 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 7:00:38 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2016 6:52:33 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

I agree. Would you categorize yourself as a deist?

I'd consider myself a theist because I subscribe to moral objectivism. If moral objectivism is true, theism -- not deism -- must be true.

Deism and moral objectivism are not mutually exclusive. The biggest difference between deism and theism is that they don't agree as to whether a god intervenes. In your point #1, if you replace 'hell as a place of eternal torment' with 'earth as a place of suffering', the point is still the same if god is an interventionist god. If that is true, your point #1 would not be consistent with theism.

Regarding deism - the one point I think is missing from that philosophy is that it would be just as reasonable to say the big bang was the birth of 'god' as to say 'god' created the big bang. Regardless, if deism it true, I think it would not be too far of a reach to say objective morality is an inherent property of the universe. Personally, I don't find that stance unreasonable.
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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8/14/2016 8:46:21 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
Hell is reserved for the devil and his angels. In other words, there is no falsehood in God. If you are occupied by demons, how much of you will survive the baptism of fire? The Truth is eternal, and it is that spirit that lives on for eternity.

Whether or not you accept freewill or determinism, God is sovereign over all. Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". For God to be omnipotent, it follows that God is omnipresent. God's will is done, because God is The Ultimate Reality, and for something to be reality, it must be real and true. Experience testifies very clearly that what we usually think of as being reality is illusory in a lot of ways.

The fall of man is said to have happened in the garden. What was that tree? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We didn't eat the tree, we ate the fruits from this tree, or what came from this tree. So the real fall happened the moment we took ourselves as being the rightful judges of what was true and false, what is good and evil. The truth is that God is the rightful judge and determiner of good and evil.

The debate of "free will" v.s. "determinism" is practically nonexistent if you can accept the fact that the reality we experience is illusory(and there is plenty of proof if you are honest and paying attention), and that God's will is sovereign over all things(which is also inherent when you understand God as "The Ultimate Reality"). In that, we can accept that free will is a reality that we experience, but God's will is always done, and it was God's will that we have this experience of free will.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
RuvDraba
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8/14/2016 8:52:19 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

Those are not reasons I ever consider.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/14/2016 11:06:46 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 7:12:09 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2016 7:02:56 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

So the biggest 2 reasons you find to reject Christianity are the doctrines therein? Not if Jesus rose from the grave or the reliability of the text itself?

Does Biblical doctrine have an accurate depiction of God? If not, why should Biblical doctrine be considered reliable?

Sure the question does biblical doctrine have an accurate depiction of God matters. The reliability of the biblical books depends on their historicity. Are they the books they once were? Were they made up? things like this seem to be far more pressing matters.

Jesus himself spoke of "the fiery flames of hell" where there's "weeping and gnashing of teeth." If this is metaphorical, there's no way to effectively discern metaphor from literal truth. In order to be a Christian, you must believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. Is Jesus capable of lying?
No I don't think Jesus is capable of lying. The passage in question depends on the writing used, the grammar, the context. All these things matter. To simply read an English version at face value can be horribly misleading. For example your reference is Jesus explanation of his parable for the weeds in the field. The preceding verse matters here:
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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8/14/2016 11:47:24 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 11:06:46 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/14/2016 7:12:09 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2016 7:02:56 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

So the biggest 2 reasons you find to reject Christianity are the doctrines therein? Not if Jesus rose from the grave or the reliability of the text itself?

Does Biblical doctrine have an accurate depiction of God? If not, why should Biblical doctrine be considered reliable?

Sure the question does biblical doctrine have an accurate depiction of God matters. The reliability of the biblical books depends on their historicity. Are they the books they once were? Were they made up? things like this seem to be far more pressing matters.

Jesus himself spoke of "the fiery flames of hell" where there's "weeping and gnashing of teeth." If this is metaphorical, there's no way to effectively discern metaphor from literal truth. In order to be a Christian, you must believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. Is Jesus capable of lying?
No I don't think Jesus is capable of lying. The passage in question depends on the writing used, the grammar, the context. All these things matter. To simply read an English version at face value can be horribly misleading. For example your reference is Jesus explanation of his parable for the weeds in the field. The preceding verse matters here:
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

Jesus was crucified for his blasphemous lies.He was a lunatic too.

John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"

Mark 3:21 when his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

Jesus was deluded and believed God spoke through him.
John 12:49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

But when the people listened to the words he spoke they did not understand him, even his disciples struggled to understand him. Jesus had to explain to them in secret what he was saying in his parables. But he explained with more parables which suggests God was also incoherent and inarticulate and failed to communicate through Jesus. But we know God turned Moses who was slow in speech and mind into a leader and messenger. The problem was Jesus not God.

Mark 4:34 He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

Jesus was a notorious liar. Even John the Baptist expressed his doubts to Jesus and asked Jesus if he was really the promised one.
Jesus lied when he said John the Baptist was Elijah. John denied he was Elijah.

Here are the scriptures to back my claims. Jesus said John was Elijah, John denies he is Elijah.

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept what I say, he is Elijah, the one the prophets said would come.

In John 1:6"8 and John 1:19"28, John the Baptist denies he is Elijah. Yet in Matthew 17:9"13, Jesus implies that he was. Isn't this a contradiction?

John 1:21"They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
He answered, "No."

John expresses doubts Jesus is the promised one.
Matthew 11:2"When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples 3"to ask him, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?"

Jesus expresses his own doubts on the cross.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

We know Jesus was crucified for his blasphemous lies.
Jesus did not fulfill any prophesies. By his own account he did not come to change the laws of the prophets. He proved he was subjected to the laws even in his life and thereby validating the Mosaic law given to the Jews by God.
According to the Jewish law:
Deuteronomy 18:20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death."

It is clear Jesus did not fulfill the prophesies. Instead, He was subjected to the law and put to death as demanded of false prophets according to Mosaic law.

Jesus lied that he was to be sacrificed.

Human sacrifice was forbidden by God. So Jesus was not sacrificed.

Many argue Jesus's death was prophesied. But even Jesus's prophesies were not fulfilled.

1. Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Jesus never fulfilled that promise.

2. Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

2000 years have passed and many generation have gone by yet his promise remains unfulfilled.

Jesus was a liar and a lunatic before and after his death. Unfortunately he could only be crucified once.

So why are Christians turning God into a liar and lunatic or turning a liar and lunatic into a God?

As a Vedantist raised in the Vedantuc tradition and trained in the reading of esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalist, I am not at liberty to speculate outside of scriptures. And the scriptures are clear that Jesus was tried, convicted and put to death for his blasphemous lies and lunacy.

So why are Christians perpetrating the delusions of a Jewish rabbi who was put to death for his delusional blasphemous lies?

We have to turn to our experts in tbe field of human behaviour. As a student of the behavioural sciences (CBT) I have also explored a diagnostic approach.

Kathleen Taylor, Neuroscientist, Says Religious Fundamentalism Could Be Treated As A Mental Illness - Huffington Post
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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8/15/2016 12:54:06 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.


Benshapiro, you strike me as a logical man, have you read the Gospels and Epistles? "hell" is debatable in Christianity, what is your take on it? after READING the Gospels and Epistles, what do YOU believe...

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

False misconception really...and I can't believe you haven't picked up on it.
You have three systems at play here, the natural/physical universe, the spiritual and the moral/human world, which is the stage for thoughts, intentions and actions.
There is a difference between what God wants, and what happens.
James 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Consider the fish tank analogy.... suppose you rent an apartment for a year or so, you want to also establish an aquarium in your apartment...you set up the tank, you set up the water parameters and filters, you add the fish, you feed them and care for them by supplying what they need to survive.
You have created the aquarium, you have complete control over the environment, you know when you will dismantle the aquarium due to the end of the lease, yet you do NOT control the actions of the fish, yet are the maker and destroyer of their world. This is the same manner in which God creates....
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry. Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
EtrnlVw
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8/15/2016 2:24:30 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Don't forget to reply to me Ben, if you fully comprehend the concepts behind Christianity then you should have little problems accepting them, you should get those concepts from reading for yourself the Gospels and Epistles....
If you understand spirituality, then you should have little reason to reject Jesus, which is the foundation of Christian teaching, can you show me a concept.....in which someone like you...rejects as a spiritual notion.....give me one example please....
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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8/15/2016 2:25:31 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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8/15/2016 2:32:16 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 2:25:31 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?

It is written,

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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8/15/2016 2:40:47 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 2:32:16 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:25:31 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?

It is written,

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Then this is all God's plan and you have no purpose for being here.

Though I doubt we will be seeing you leave anytime soon.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
bigotry
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8/15/2016 2:41:54 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Jesus was crucified for his blasphemous lies.He was a lunatic too.

John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"

The very next verse...
21 But others said, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"
Sounds like he was crucified for his eye opening truths and going against a group of power hungry people.

Mark 3:21 when his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man"s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man"s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

31 Then Jesus" mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."

33 "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God"s will is my brother and sister and mother."

Jesus was deluded and believed God spoke through him.
John 12:49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken
44 Then Jesus cried out, "Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

"Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. And many followed him, and he healed them all, and ordered them not to make him known. This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not wrangle or cry aloud, nor will any one hear his voice in the streets; he will not break a bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick, till he brings justice to victory; and in his name will the Gentiles hope."" Matthew 12:15-21

"And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."" Matthew 3:16-17

Amen
But when the people listened to the words he spoke they did not understand him, even his disciples struggled to understand him. Jesus had to explain to them in secret what he was saying in his parables. But he explained with more parables which suggests God was also incoherent and inarticulate and failed to communicate through Jesus. But we know God turned Moses who was slow in speech and mind into a leader and messenger. The problem was Jesus not God.
Mark 4:1
The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water"s edge. 2 He taught them many things by parables

Mark 4:34 He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.
33 With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand.
Interesting omission

Jesus was a notorious liar. Even John the Baptist expressed his doubts to Jesus and asked Jesus if he was really the promised one.
Jesus lied when he said John the Baptist was Elijah. John denied he was Elijah.

Here are the scriptures to back my claims. Jesus said John was Elijah, John denies he is Elijah.

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept what I say, he is Elijah, the one the prophets said would come.

In John 1:6"8 and John 1:19"28, John the Baptist denies he is Elijah. Yet in Matthew 17:9"13, Jesus implies that he was. Isn't this a contradiction?

John 1:21"They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
He answered, "No."

John expresses doubts Jesus is the promised one.
Matthew 11:2"When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples 3"to ask him, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?"

Role and function. Not actuality.
Matthew 11:14 New International Version
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.


Jesus expresses his own doubts on the cross.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

We know Jesus was crucified for his blasphemous lies.
Jesus did not fulfill any prophesies. By his own account he did not come to change the laws of the prophets. He proved he was subjected to the laws even in his life and thereby validating the Mosaic law given to the Jews by God.

I just want to be clear if you are actually standing by the statement "Jesus did not fulfill any prophesies"
According to the Jewish law:
Deuteronomy 18:20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death."
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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8/15/2016 2:43:11 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 2:40:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:32:16 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:25:31 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?

It is written,

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



Then this is all God's plan and you have no purpose for being here.

Though I doubt we will be seeing you leave anytime soon.

Obviously, me being here is a part of God's plan as well, otherwise I wouldn't be here.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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8/15/2016 2:48:01 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 2:43:11 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:40:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:32:16 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:25:31 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?

It is written,

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



Then this is all God's plan and you have no purpose for being here.

Though I doubt we will be seeing you leave anytime soon.

Obviously, me being here is a part of God's plan as well, otherwise I wouldn't be here

Then just as obviously, God's plan is contradictory.

Illogical.

Irrational.

Counterproductive.

Contrary.

All those things that an omniscient entity should not be.

Though I do appreciate your hand in that exposition. Ta now.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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8/15/2016 2:55:48 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 2:48:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:43:11 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:40:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:32:16 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:25:31 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?

It is written,

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



Then this is all God's plan and you have no purpose for being here.

Though I doubt we will be seeing you leave anytime soon.

Obviously, me being here is a part of God's plan as well, otherwise I wouldn't be here


Then just as obviously, God's plan is contradictory.

Illogical.

Irrational.

Counterproductive.

Contrary.

All those things that an omniscient entity should not be.

Though I do appreciate your hand in that exposition. Ta now.

Sounds to me like you put a lot of faith in your own understanding.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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8/15/2016 2:58:19 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 2:55:48 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:48:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:43:11 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:40:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:32:16 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:25:31 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?

It is written,

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



Then this is all God's plan and you have no purpose for being here.

Though I doubt we will be seeing you leave anytime soon.

Obviously, me being here is a part of God's plan as well, otherwise I wouldn't be here


Then just as obviously, God's plan is contradictory.

Illogical.

Irrational.

Counterproductive.

Contrary.

All those things that an omniscient entity should not be.

Though I do appreciate your hand in that exposition. Ta now.

Sounds to me like you put a lot of faith in your own understanding.

Either I have, and God wasn't behind it (you're wrong), or I haven't, and God did it, and you still have no point here.

Again, thanks. Ta for now.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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8/15/2016 2:59:56 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 2:58:19 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:55:48 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:48:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:43:11 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:40:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:32:16 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:25:31 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?

It is written,

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



Then this is all God's plan and you have no purpose for being here.

Though I doubt we will be seeing you leave anytime soon.

Obviously, me being here is a part of God's plan as well, otherwise I wouldn't be here


Then just as obviously, God's plan is contradictory.

Illogical.

Irrational.

Counterproductive.

Contrary.

All those things that an omniscient entity should not be.

Though I do appreciate your hand in that exposition. Ta now.

Sounds to me like you put a lot of faith in your own understanding.

Either I have, and God wasn't behind it (you're wrong), or I haven't, and God did it, and you still have no point here.

Again, thanks. Ta for now.

You sound very insecure to me.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/15/2016 3:00:28 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
It is clear Jesus did not fulfill the prophesies. Instead, He was subjected to the law and put to death as demanded of false prophets according to Mosaic law.

Here are 44 of them
http://christianity.about.com...

Jesus lied that he was to be sacrificed.

Human sacrifice was forbidden by God. So Jesus was not sacrificed.

Many argue Jesus's death was prophesied. But even Jesus's prophesies were not fulfilled.
see above

1. Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Acts 2:1
When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

Jesus never fulfilled that promise.

2. Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

2000 years have passed and many generation have gone by yet his promise remains unfulfilled.
33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened

Jesus was a liar and a lunatic before and after his death. Unfortunately he could only be crucified once.

So why are Christians turning God into a liar and lunatic or turning a liar and lunatic into a God?

As a Vedantist raised in the Vedantuc tradition and trained in the reading of esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalist, I am not at liberty to speculate outside of scriptures. And the scriptures are clear that Jesus was tried, convicted and put to death for his blasphemous lies and lunacy.

So why are Christians perpetrating the delusions of a Jewish rabbi who was put to death for his delusional blasphemous lies?

We have to turn to o
you got cut off at the end there.
What a dialogue there. Calling Jesus a liar and lunatic isn't really an argument but really an opinion. So I don't see much else to actually respond to.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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8/15/2016 3:04:26 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 2:59:56 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:58:19 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:55:48 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:48:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:43:11 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:40:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:32:16 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:25:31 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?

It is written,

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



Then this is all God's plan and you have no purpose for being here.

Though I doubt we will be seeing you leave anytime soon.

Obviously, me being here is a part of God's plan as well, otherwise I wouldn't be here


Then just as obviously, God's plan is contradictory.

Illogical.

Irrational.

Counterproductive.

Contrary.

All those things that an omniscient entity should not be.

Though I do appreciate your hand in that exposition. Ta now.

Sounds to me like you put a lot of faith in your own understanding.

Either I have, and God wasn't behind it (you're wrong), or I haven't, and God did it, and you still have no point here.

Again, thanks. Ta for now.

You sound very insecure to me.

Like wise.

Good talk.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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8/15/2016 3:13:20 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 3:04:26 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:59:56 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:58:19 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:55:48 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:48:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:43:11 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:40:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:32:16 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:25:31 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/15/2016 2:13:27 AM, SpiritandTruth wrote:
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?

It is written,

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



Then this is all God's plan and you have no purpose for being here.

Though I doubt we will be seeing you leave anytime soon.

Obviously, me being here is a part of God's plan as well, otherwise I wouldn't be here


Then just as obviously, God's plan is contradictory.

Illogical.

Irrational.

Counterproductive.

Contrary.

All those things that an omniscient entity should not be.

Though I do appreciate your hand in that exposition. Ta now.

Sounds to me like you put a lot of faith in your own understanding.

Either I have, and God wasn't behind it (you're wrong), or I haven't, and God did it, and you still have no point here.

Again, thanks. Ta for now.

You sound very insecure to me.

Like wise.

Good talk.

Yet, you are running away blaspheming God. Your faith is in your own understanding, not The Ultimate Reality.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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8/15/2016 3:24:22 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
It's about accepting Truth.

If God, who is The Ultimate Reality really is your God, it is obvious that when you do evil, it is because of idolatry.

No, its because of God. He is "Omnipotent..."behind every influence, force, or power".

Such an influence is by His design.

Repent, turn from the ways you know are wicked, and look towards God. If you love God, you will love God's creation. Human beings are God's creation, and you being a sinner should know how human beings are sinful! Forgive them, they know not what they do. If you do not forgive them, you condemn yourself, because you are no better.

Sin is also of God's design, again "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power". "

Sincerity of faith and charity, this is the law and the prophets. God is One. Forgiveness. Mercy triumphs over judgment. The Truth will set you free. This is The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So? God set the serpent loose in Eden. There is no other conclusion, as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power".

Are we about to see a walk back of what omnipotent means?

It is written,

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



Then this is all God's plan and you have no purpose for being here.

Though I doubt we will be seeing you leave anytime soon.

Obviously, me being here is a part of God's plan as well, otherwise I wouldn't be here


Then just as obviously, God's plan is contradictory.

Illogical.

Irrational.

Counterproductive.

Contrary.

All those things that an omniscient entity should not be.

Though I do appreciate your hand in that exposition. Ta now.

Sounds to me like you put a lot of faith in your own understanding.

Either I have, and God wasn't behind it (you're wrong), or I haven't, and God did it, and you still have no point here.

Again, thanks. Ta for now.

You sound very insecure to me.

Like wise.

Good talk.

Yet, you are running away blaspheming God. Your faith is in your own understanding, not The Ultimate Reality.

And? You have addressed neither of the prongs. Either God's plan was for me to blaspheme Him as "Omnipotent means "behind every influence, force, or power", or its not. Omniscient or Omnipotent. It becomes your conundrum now, as the Ultimate Reality set into motion for in His Ultimate Reality such a thing must come to pass.

Should you understand your own terms and definitions, it would rob you of impetus. Yet you persist. Is futility God's plan for either of us? Its occurring, God is omnipotent, it must be so.

Or, ya know, you got things really REALLY skewed.

Either way, not my circus, not my monkeys.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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popculturepooka
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8/15/2016 3:42:44 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.


I'm a Christian and I reject that, so...

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

Okay, even if true, open theism brah.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
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8/15/2016 3:44:40 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 7:12:09 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2016 7:02:56 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

So the biggest 2 reasons you find to reject Christianity are the doctrines therein? Not if Jesus rose from the grave or the reliability of the text itself?

Does Biblical doctrine have an accurate depiction of God? If not, why should Biblical doctrine be considered reliable?

Jesus himself spoke of "the fiery flames of hell" where there's "weeping and gnashing of teeth." If this is metaphorical, there's no way to effectively discern metaphor from literal truth.

Lol, just like if I say "it's raining cats and dogs, but I'm going to the store anyways" means you LITERALLY can't discern the difference between and metaphor and truth, right?

In order to be a Christian, you must believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. Is Jesus capable of lying?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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8/15/2016 3:45:54 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/14/2016 6:47:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
(1) Hell, as a place of eternal torment, is incompatible with the notion that there exists an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent God.

if u reject knowingly the truth its your problem...

(2) If God foreknows future events, free will, defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise, doesn't exist. If the Christian conception of God is true, free will and foreknowledge co-exists. This conflicts definitionally and therefore can't be true.

wrong. God doesnt bound by time. time doesnt exist to him.. past present future its all the same to him.

better reason is the bible didnt make it.. it wasnt preserved in its originals, finding older manuscripts always shows they changed it upside down, and anonymous ppl wrote whatever they liked.. their love stories jealous rape murder hate and beside of all that u find there also good stuff. anyway its pile of stories in a nutshell written by anonymous ppl, modified/removed chunks and chunks of it by other ppl...
Never fart near dog