Total Posts:35|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The Efficacy of Prayer

matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I have some questions for theists regarding prayer:

1. Is God's plan/will always perfect?

2. If his will is perfect, does prayer change his mind to something less perfect?

3. If prayer does change his mind on how he intervenes, does that mean that you educated God as to what a better option could be?

4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?
Fatihah
Posts: 7,748
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 4:55:41 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
I have some questions for theists regarding prayer:

1. Is God's plan/will always perfect?

2. If his will is perfect, does prayer change his mind to something less perfect?

3. If prayer does change his mind on how he intervenes, does that mean that you educated God as to what a better option could be?

4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?

Response: It is part of God's plan to answer prayers as He wills. So answering a prayer does not change His mind or plan since it has already been part of His plan.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 4:58:27 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 4:55:41 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
I have some questions for theists regarding prayer:

1. Is God's plan/will always perfect?

2. If his will is perfect, does prayer change his mind to something less perfect?

3. If prayer does change his mind on how he intervenes, does that mean that you educated God as to what a better option could be?

4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?

Response: It is part of God's plan to answer prayers as He wills. So answering a prayer does not change His mind or plan since it has already been part of His plan.

Then why pray other than to repeat how great he is over and over? (God apparently needs this affirmation)
Fatihah
Posts: 7,748
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 5:03:30 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 4:58:27 PM, matt8800 wrote:

Then why pray other than to repeat how great he is over and over? (God apparently needs this affirmation)

Response: Because repeating how great He is shows appreciation and to show appreciation is an act of love that is rewarded.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,035
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 5:22:34 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
It is clear that at least the Hebrew did believe did prayer make a difference. Many psalms take the forms of 'Petitions', asking YHWH for favours in exchange for flattery and promises of praise and worship. Typical is Psalm 86

1: Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy.
2: Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
3: Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.
4: Rejoice the soul of thy servant: for unto thee, O Lord, do I lift up my soul.
5: For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.
6: Give ear, O LORD, unto my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications.
7: In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.
8: Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
9: All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
10: For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
11: Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.
12: I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore.
13: For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
14: O God, the proud are risen against me, and the assemblies of violent men have sought after my soul; and have not set thee before them.
15: But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
16: O turn unto me, and have mercy upon me; give thy strength unto thy servant, and save the son of thine handmaid.
17: Shew me a token for good; that they which hate me may see it, and be ashamed: because thou, LORD, hast holpen me, and comforted me.

The correct form of sacrifices to YHWH are also meticulosly detailed, mainly in Leviticus. It is strongly suggested that doing it wrong would result in trouble!

Lev 23:9 you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest. He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

God was originally influenceable, or at least open to reason:

23 And Abraham drew near, and said: 'Wilt Thou indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt Thou indeed sweep away and not forgive the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
That be far from Thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from Thee; shall not the Judge of all the earth do justly?'

26 And the LORD said: 'If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will forgive all the place for their sake.'

27 And Abraham answered and said: 'Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, who am but dust and ashes. 28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous; wilt Thou destroy all the city for lack of five?' And He said: 'I will not destroy it, if I find there forty and five.' 29 And he spoke unto Him yet again, and said: 'Peradventure there shall be forty found there.'

30 And He said: 'I will not do it for the forty's sake.'

YHWH's plan was clearly more flexible in those days!
12_13
Posts: 1,364
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 6:57:55 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
I have some questions for theists regarding prayer:

1. Is God's plan/will always perfect?

I believe so. But that is probably matter of opinion. For example, it is possible that Satan doesn"t like it and don"t think it is perfect.

2. If his will is perfect, does prayer change his mind to something less perfect?

Maybe it is possible that many perfect outcomes exist. :)

3. If prayer does change his mind on how he intervenes, does that mean that you educated God as to what a better option could be?

Not necessary. It can just mean that I show that I accept something to happen and then God does it. It can be also like giving permission or acceptance for certain things.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 8:39:21 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 5:22:34 PM, keithprosser wrote:
It is clear that at least the Hebrew did believe did prayer make a difference. Many psalms take the forms of 'Petitions', asking YHWH for favours in exchange for flattery and promises of praise and worship. Typical is Psalm 86

1: Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy.
2: Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
3: Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.
4: Rejoice the soul of thy servant: for unto thee, O Lord, do I lift up my soul.
5: For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.
6: Give ear, O LORD, unto my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications.
7: In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.
8: Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
9: All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
10: For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
11: Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.
12: I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore.
13: For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
14: O God, the proud are risen against me, and the assemblies of violent men have sought after my soul; and have not set thee before them.
15: But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
16: O turn unto me, and have mercy upon me; give thy strength unto thy servant, and save the son of thine handmaid.
17: Shew me a token for good; that they which hate me may see it, and be ashamed: because thou, LORD, hast holpen me, and comforted me.

The correct form of sacrifices to YHWH are also meticulosly detailed, mainly in Leviticus. It is strongly suggested that doing it wrong would result in trouble!

Lev 23:9 you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest. He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

God was originally influenceable, or at least open to reason:

23 And Abraham drew near, and said: 'Wilt Thou indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt Thou indeed sweep away and not forgive the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
That be far from Thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from Thee; shall not the Judge of all the earth do justly?'

26 And the LORD said: 'If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will forgive all the place for their sake.'

27 And Abraham answered and said: 'Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, who am but dust and ashes. 28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous; wilt Thou destroy all the city for lack of five?' And He said: 'I will not destroy it, if I find there forty and five.' 29 And he spoke unto Him yet again, and said: 'Peradventure there shall be forty found there.'

30 And He said: 'I will not do it for the forty's sake.'

YHWH's plan was clearly more flexible in those days!

Also, apparently God also can experience regret when he makes poor decisions:

""I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night." 1 Samual 15:11

Makes you wonder why he just didn't do it right in the first place :)
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 8:41:43 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 6:57:55 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
I have some questions for theists regarding prayer:

1. Is God's plan/will always perfect?

I believe so. But that is probably matter of opinion. For example, it is possible that Satan doesn"t like it and don"t think it is perfect.

2. If his will is perfect, does prayer change his mind to something less perfect?

Maybe it is possible that many perfect outcomes exist. :)

3. If prayer does change his mind on how he intervenes, does that mean that you educated God as to what a better option could be?

Not necessary. It can just mean that I show that I accept something to happen and then God does it. It can be also like giving permission or acceptance for certain things.

Only a Christian would find those answers remotely satisfying to legitimate questions.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 8:43:14 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 5:03:30 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/15/2016 4:58:27 PM, matt8800 wrote:

Then why pray other than to repeat how great he is over and over? (God apparently needs this affirmation)

Response: Because repeating how great He is shows appreciation and to show appreciation is an act of love that is rewarded.

Sounds like an invisible mute teenage girl that constantly needs to be told how pretty she is.
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 8:59:49 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 8:39:21 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Also, apparently God also can experience regret when he makes poor decisions:

""I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night." 1 Samual 15:11

Makes you wonder why he just didn't do it right in the first place :)

well, that passage never says that there was a better way he could have done it. It's just saying that God was sad that Saul had been king, and then turned away.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 9:16:53 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
I have some questions for theists regarding prayer:

1. Is God's plan/will always perfect?
Yes.
2. If his will is perfect, does prayer change his mind to something less perfect?
3. If prayer does change his mind on how he intervenes, does that mean that you educated God as to what a better option could be?
4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?

Things are going to get incredibly confusing, as we are talking about plans by a being outside of time, but I'll have a stab.

So, the only reason someone would need to change their plan, would be if they had gained some new information. So for prayer described above, for prayer to change his mind, it would be the case that God has learned that you want to feel better.

This however is not the case, because God is outside of time, so he never "learns" as such, because there is no time before when he didn't know.

This would mean that he knew everything that would ever be prayed while he was forming his perfect plan. So his answer to your prayers has already been planned before you pray your prayer. But the prayer have/will/are praying is still being heard.

A few other reasons for praying as well:

2. God loves it when we pray, it doesn't earn you any heaven credits, but he still loves it

3. Jesus has paid the ultimate sacrifice, the least we can do is thank him

4. It's an encouragement to us to know that God is listening, and there.

5. It can help remind us about Jesus' sacrifice if we manage to pray regularly

Hope that answers your question, if you're still confused please ask.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
keithprosser
Posts: 2,035
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 9:35:29 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 8:39:21 PM, matt8800 wrote:

Makes you wonder why he just didn't do it right in the first place :)

You also have to be careful what promises you make when praying to YHWH
Judges 11:30
...Jephthah made a vow to the Lord and said, "If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, 31 then whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the Lord's, and I will offer it[b] up for a burnt offering."
... Jephtha defeats the Ammonites...
34 Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah. And behold, his daughter came out to meet him with tambourines and with dances. She was his only child; besides her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 And as soon as he saw her, he tore his clothes and said, "Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low, and you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow."
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 9:39:28 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 8:59:49 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/15/2016 8:39:21 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Also, apparently God also can experience regret when he makes poor decisions:

""I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was angry, and he cried out to the LORD all that night." 1 Samual 15:11

Makes you wonder why he just didn't do it right in the first place :)

well, that passage never says that there was a better way he could have done it. It's just saying that God was sad that Saul had been king, and then turned away.

If god is all powerful and all knowing (including future), that would make no sense.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,035
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 9:40:32 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 8:59:49 PM, VirBinarus wrote:

well, that passage never says that there was a better way he could have done it. It's just saying that God was sad that Saul had been king, and then turned away.

There are 3 different accounts of how Saul bean king so YHWH must have got it wrong each time.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,748
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 10:53:59 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 8:43:14 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/15/2016 5:03:30 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/15/2016 4:58:27 PM, matt8800 wrote:

Then why pray other than to repeat how great he is over and over? (God apparently needs this affirmation)

Response: Because repeating how great He is shows appreciation and to show appreciation is an act of love that is rewarded.

Sounds like an invisible mute teenage girl that constantly needs to be told how pretty she is.

Response: More like a crying, petty, ungrateful child who refuses to show appreciation or acknowledge their own parent because he or she does not get everything he or she wants.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/15/2016 11:12:17 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
I have some questions for theists regarding prayer:

1. Is God's plan/will always perfect?

Indubitably.

2. If his will is perfect, does prayer change his mind to something less perfect?

Not at all.

3. If prayer does change his mind on how he intervenes, does that mean that you educated God as to what a better option could be?

Nope.

4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?

Because it changes you. Like any parent, God loves to hear his children's longings and desires (even if he already knew them). And like any parent there are times to grant and times not to grant.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 2:08:24 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 11:12:17 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
I have some questions for theists regarding prayer:

1. Is God's plan/will always perfect?

Indubitably.

2. If his will is perfect, does prayer change his mind to something less perfect?

Not at all.

3. If prayer does change his mind on how he intervenes, does that mean that you educated God as to what a better option could be?

Nope.

4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?

Because it changes you. Like any parent, God loves to hear his children's longings and desires (even if he already knew them). And like any parent there are times to grant and times not to grant.

Yes, it does change you. Talking to your imaginary friend more firmly entrenches your believe in that imaginary friend. Some Nordic farmer who believed Zeus was talking to him and directing him is probably going to view the world differently than his non-believer counterpart.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 2:16:06 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 9:16:53 PM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:

4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?

Things are going to get incredibly confusing, as we are talking about plans by a being outside of time, but I'll have a stab.

So, the only reason someone would need to change their plan, would be if they had gained some new information. So for prayer described above, for prayer to change Zeus' mind, it would be the case that Zeus has learned that you want to feel better.

This however is not the case, because Zeus is outside of time, so he never "learns" as such, because there is no time before when Zeus didn't know.

This would mean that Zeus knew everything that would ever be prayed while he was forming his perfect plan. So Zeus' answer to your prayers has already been planned before you pray your prayer. But the prayer have/will/are praying is still being heard.


Since you didn't specify which God, I transposed "Zeus" for the word "god" in the above paragraphs. The Norse could have said the exact same thing and it would have been just as true to them. Your religious story is just one among thousands and everybody thinks they're right.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 5:39:57 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 2:08:24 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/15/2016 11:12:17 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
I have some questions for theists regarding prayer:

1. Is God's plan/will always perfect?

Indubitably.

2. If his will is perfect, does prayer change his mind to something less perfect?

Not at all.

3. If prayer does change his mind on how he intervenes, does that mean that you educated God as to what a better option could be?

Nope.

4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?

Because it changes you. Like any parent, God loves to hear his children's longings and desires (even if he already knew them). And like any parent there are times to grant and times not to grant.

Yes, it does change you. Talking to your imaginary friend more firmly entrenches your believe in that imaginary friend. Some Nordic farmer who believed Zeus was talking to him and directing him is probably going to view the world differently than his non-believer counterpart.

hey if you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions. Maybe you should try it, it might improve your disposition.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 6:13:23 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
I have some questions for theists regarding prayer:

1. Is God's plan/will always perfect?

2. If his will is perfect, does prayer change his mind to something less perfect?

3. If prayer does change his mind on how he intervenes, does that mean that you educated God as to what a better option could be?

4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?

Modesty, humility, humble

Prayer is an action that strips a person of pride.

Why Jesus endorsed praying in private

Prayer is not to entice God to our side. But to get us out of God's way.
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 6:52:19 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 2:16:06 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/15/2016 9:16:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:

4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?

Things are going to get incredibly confusing, as we are talking about plans by a being outside of time, but I'll have a stab.

So, the only reason someone would need to change their plan, would be if they had gained some new information. So for prayer described above, for prayer to change Zeus' mind, it would be the case that Zeus has learned that you want to feel better.

This however is not the case, because Zeus is outside of time, so he never "learns" as such, because there is no time before when Zeus didn't know.

This would mean that Zeus knew everything that would ever be prayed while he was forming his perfect plan. So Zeus' answer to your prayers has already been planned before you pray your prayer. But the prayer have/will/are praying is still being heard.


Since you didn't specify which God, I transposed "Zeus" for the word "god" in the above paragraphs. The Norse could have said the exact same thing and it would have been just as true to them. Your religious story is just one among thousands and everybody thinks they're right.

Firstly, no, the Norse and Greek gods were not considered to be outside of time, so my paragraph doesn't work on them.

But, yes, there are a few other gods outside of time such as Allah.

Secondly, where on earth does that question come from? This is a discussion on prayer, and I don't think anyone in their right mind would try to use God being outside of time as proof that he is the only one.

But thirdly, the reason I believe in the Christian God above all else is that I consider the Bible to be a reliable source, that fits in with other texts at the time, was written very close to the events and was written by many people without contradiction, including some 700 years before Jesus was alive.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 7:24:14 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 6:52:19 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/16/2016 2:16:06 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/15/2016 9:16:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/15/2016 4:42:53 PM, matt8800 wrote:

4. If prayer does not change God's plan/will, why ask him for anything?

Things are going to get incredibly confusing, as we are talking about plans by a being outside of time, but I'll have a stab.

So, the only reason someone would need to change their plan, would be if they had gained some new information. So for prayer described above, for prayer to change Zeus' mind, it would be the case that Zeus has learned that you want to feel better.

This however is not the case, because Zeus is outside of time, so he never "learns" as such, because there is no time before when Zeus didn't know.

This would mean that Zeus knew everything that would ever be prayed while he was forming his perfect plan. So Zeus' answer to your prayers has already been planned before you pray your prayer. But the prayer have/will/are praying is still being heard.


Since you didn't specify which God, I transposed "Zeus" for the word "god" in the above paragraphs. The Norse could have said the exact same thing and it would have been just as true to them. Your religious story is just one among thousands and everybody thinks they're right.

Firstly, no, the Norse and Greek gods were not considered to be outside of time, so my paragraph doesn't work on them.

But, yes, there are a few other gods outside of time such as Allah.

Secondly, where on earth does that question come from? This is a discussion on prayer, and I don't think anyone in their right mind would try to use God being outside of time as proof that he is the only one.

But thirdly, the reason I believe in the Christian God above all else is that I consider the Bible to be a reliable source, that fits in with other texts at the time, was written very close to the events and was written by many people without contradiction, including some 700 years before Jesus was alive.
Oh puhhhhhhhhlease.
You obviously haven't read it.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 7:30:56 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 7:24:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 6:52:19 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
But thirdly, the reason I believe in the Christian God above all else is that I consider the Bible to be a reliable source, that fits in with other texts at the time, was written very close to the events and was written by many people without contradiction, including some 700 years before Jesus was alive.
Oh puhhhhhhhhlease.
You obviously haven't read it.

I have, I try to read it every day, I haven't found any that haven't fallen apart when you look at 1. context and 2. the text in its original language.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 7:31:38 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 7:30:56 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:24:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 6:52:19 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
But thirdly, the reason I believe in the Christian God above all else is that I consider the Bible to be a reliable source, that fits in with other texts at the time, was written very close to the events and was written by many people without contradiction, including some 700 years before Jesus was alive.
Oh puhhhhhhhhlease.
You obviously haven't read it.

I have, I try to read it every day, I haven't found any that haven't fallen apart when you look at 1. context and 2. the text in its original language.

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 7:47:57 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 7:31:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:30:56 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:24:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 6:52:19 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
But thirdly, the reason I believe in the Christian God above all else is that I consider the Bible to be a reliable source, that fits in with other texts at the time, was written very close to the events and was written by many people without contradiction, including some 700 years before Jesus was alive.
Oh puhhhhhhhhlease.
You obviously haven't read it.

I have, I try to read it every day, I haven't found any that haven't fallen apart when you look at 1. context and 2. the text in its original language.

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

http://www.tektonics.org...
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 7:58:26 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 7:47:57 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:31:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:30:56 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:24:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 6:52:19 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
But thirdly, the reason I believe in the Christian God above all else is that I consider the Bible to be a reliable source, that fits in with other texts at the time, was written very close to the events and was written by many people without contradiction, including some 700 years before Jesus was alive.
Oh puhhhhhhhhlease.
You obviously haven't read it.

I have, I try to read it every day, I haven't found any that haven't fallen apart when you look at 1. context and 2. the text in its original language.

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

http://www.tektonics.org...

Can't dispute it? Never mind you just keep telling yourself that there are no contradictions, you're obviously gullible enough to believe you.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 8:10:11 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 7:58:26 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:47:57 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:31:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:30:56 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:24:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 6:52:19 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
But thirdly, the reason I believe in the Christian God above all else is that I consider the Bible to be a reliable source, that fits in with other texts at the time, was written very close to the events and was written by many people without contradiction, including some 700 years before Jesus was alive.
Oh puhhhhhhhhlease.
You obviously haven't read it.

I have, I try to read it every day, I haven't found any that haven't fallen apart when you look at 1. context and 2. the text in its original language.

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

http://www.tektonics.org...

Can't dispute it? Never mind you just keep telling yourself that there are no contradictions, you're obviously gullible enough to believe you.

I just pointed you to an article with the answer right there.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
bulproof
Posts: 25,263
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 8:15:52 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 8:10:11 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:58:26 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:47:57 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:31:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:30:56 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 8/16/2016 7:24:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/16/2016 6:52:19 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
But thirdly, the reason I believe in the Christian God above all else is that I consider the Bible to be a reliable source, that fits in with other texts at the time, was written very close to the events and was written by many people without contradiction, including some 700 years before Jesus was alive.
Oh puhhhhhhhhlease.
You obviously haven't read it.

I have, I try to read it every day, I haven't found any that haven't fallen apart when you look at 1. context and 2. the text in its original language.

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

http://www.tektonics.org...

Can't dispute it? Never mind you just keep telling yourself that there are no contradictions, you're obviously gullible enough to believe you.

I just pointed you to an article with the answer right there.
Oh did you expect me to read a concocted excuse written by an apologist?
No thanks, their make believe is even less believable than the make believe they are apologising for.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 10:01:35 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 8:15:52 AM, bulproof wrote:
Oh did you expect me to read a concocted excuse written by an apologist?
No thanks, their make believe is even less believable than the make believe they are apologising for.

well, if you could show how, that would be a good start.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11