Total Posts:7|Showing Posts:1-7
Jump to topic:

The Bible and the American Revolution

distraff
Posts: 1,005
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 5:07:00 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
I want to ask whether the American Revolution is consistent with the words of the bible. Instead of placing my opinions on the bible I will simply quote bible verses. The best part is Romans 13 and is at the very bottom. I go from less controversial to more controversial.

If you think I am just taking these verses out of context, I have many verses that are saying the same thing but because of space issues I can't post too much. You are free to read the chapters referenced if you wish. Good luck.

Paying Taxes
Mark 12
17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar"s and to God what is God"s." And they were amazed at him.

Obeying human authority
1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord"s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority,
14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

Hebrews 13
17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

Titus 3
1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient ...

Obedient Slaves
Ephesians 6
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.
7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people,

Colossians 3
22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters,

Now lets get to the final finale:
Romans 13
1 All of you must obey those who rule over you. There are no authorities except the ones God has chosen. Those who now rule have been chosen by God.
2 So whoever opposes the authorities opposes leaders whom God has appointed. Those who do that will be judged.
3 If you do what is right, you won"t need to be afraid of your rulers. But watch out if you do what is wrong! You don"t want to be afraid of those in authority, do you? Then do what is right, and you will be praised.
4 The one in authority serves God for your good. But if you do wrong, watch out! Rulers don"t carry a sword for no reason at all. They serve God. And God is carrying out his anger through them. The ruler punishes anyone who does wrong.
5 You must obey the authorities. Then you will not be punished. You must also obey them because you know it is right.
6 That"s also why you pay taxes. The authorities serve God. Ruling takes up all their time.
7 Give to everyone what you owe them. Do you owe taxes? Then pay them. Do you owe anything else to the government? Then pay it. Do you owe respect? Then give it. Do you owe honor? Then show it.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 9:34:23 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 5:07:00 AM, distraff wrote:
I want to ask whether the American Revolution is consistent with the words of the bible. Instead of placing my opinions on the bible I will simply quote bible verses. The best part is Romans 13 and is at the very bottom. I go from less controversial to more controversial.

If you think I am just taking these verses out of context, I have many verses that are saying the same thing but because of space issues I can't post too much. You are free to read the chapters referenced if you wish. Good luck.

Paying Taxes
Mark 12
17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar"s and to God what is God"s." And they were amazed at him.

Obeying human authority
1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord"s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority,
14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

Hebrews 13
17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

Titus 3
1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient ...

Obedient Slaves
Ephesians 6
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.
7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people,

Colossians 3
22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters,

Now lets get to the final finale:
Romans 13
1 All of you must obey those who rule over you. There are no authorities except the ones God has chosen. Those who now rule have been chosen by God.
2 So whoever opposes the authorities opposes leaders whom God has appointed. Those who do that will be judged.
3 If you do what is right, you won"t need to be afraid of your rulers. But watch out if you do what is wrong! You don"t want to be afraid of those in authority, do you? Then do what is right, and you will be praised.
4 The one in authority serves God for your good. But if you do wrong, watch out! Rulers don"t carry a sword for no reason at all. They serve God. And God is carrying out his anger through them. The ruler punishes anyone who does wrong.
5 You must obey the authorities. Then you will not be punished. You must also obey them because you know it is right.
6 That"s also why you pay taxes. The authorities serve God. Ruling takes up all their time.
7 Give to everyone what you owe them. Do you owe taxes? Then pay them. Do you owe anything else to the government? Then pay it. Do you owe respect? Then give it. Do you owe honor? Then show it.

That's a very tough question.

I shall look into it deeper. My first impression is what is the moral requirement if obeying government puts you against God?

In the old testament sins sanctiined by the state such as child sacrifice and idol worship were said to put blood on the heads of Isreals people.

So do you submit and obey right into the wrath of God? Doesn't seem legit. But I will remark in detail later
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,386
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 2:02:24 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 5:07:00 AM, distraff wrote:
I want to ask whether the American Revolution is consistent with the words of the bible. Instead of placing my opinions on the bible I will simply quote bible verses. The best part is Romans 13 and is at the very bottom. I go from less controversial to more controversial.

If you think I am just taking these verses out of context, I have many verses that are saying the same thing but because of space issues I can't post too much. You are free to read the chapters referenced if you wish. Good luck.

Paying Taxes
Mark 12
17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar"s and to God what is God"s." And they were amazed at him.

Obeying human authority
1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord"s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority,
14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

Hebrews 13
17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

Titus 3
1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient ...

Obedient Slaves
Ephesians 6
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.
7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people,

Colossians 3
22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters,

Now lets get to the final finale:
Romans 13
1 All of you must obey those who rule over you. There are no authorities except the ones God has chosen. Those who now rule have been chosen by God.
2 So whoever opposes the authorities opposes leaders whom God has appointed. Those who do that will be judged.
3 If you do what is right, you won"t need to be afraid of your rulers. But watch out if you do what is wrong! You don"t want to be afraid of those in authority, do you? Then do what is right, and you will be praised.
4 The one in authority serves God for your good. But if you do wrong, watch out! Rulers don"t carry a sword for no reason at all. They serve God. And God is carrying out his anger through them. The ruler punishes anyone who does wrong.
5 You must obey the authorities. Then you will not be punished. You must also obey them because you know it is right.
6 That"s also why you pay taxes. The authorities serve God. Ruling takes up all their time.
7 Give to everyone what you owe them. Do you owe taxes? Then pay them. Do you owe anything else to the government? Then pay it. Do you owe respect? Then give it. Do you owe honor? Then show it.
Obeying God is key.

Acts 29
Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead"whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."


That can beg the question on any claim of obeying God, but historically there's generally a fair amount of oppression ans suppression involved. The Israelites were granted escape from their oppressive rulers who apparently suppressed their worship of Yahweh.

Exodus 9:1
Parallel Verses
New International Version
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship me."


The church in China were forced underground by their rulers. They were oppressed for their religion, and suppressed as far as meeting, worshiping, and reading scripture (Bibles were smuggled in illegally.)

European nations oppressed Christians, forbidding worship, and reading the Bible (the Bible itself being illegal to own in a number of cases).
Omniverse
Posts: 973
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 2:08:55 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 2:02:24 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:

European nations oppressed Christians, forbidding worship, and reading the Bible (the Bible itself being illegal to own in a number of cases).

I'd like to ask you to be more specific here. When and where in Europe did such things allegedly happen? Are you talking about the 20th century? If not, which religious authorities - specifically from which faith and denomination - enforced such prohibitions?

Obliged.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,386
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 2:43:11 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 2:08:55 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 8/16/2016 2:02:24 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:

European nations oppressed Christians, forbidding worship, and reading the Bible (the Bible itself being illegal to own in a number of cases).

I'd like to ask you to be more specific here. When and where in Europe did such things allegedly happen? Are you talking about the 20th century? If not, which religious authorities - specifically from which faith and denomination - enforced such prohibitions?

Obliged.
It's fairly common knowledge that the American Founding Fathers sought escape from theocracy. Denominational theocracy is what suppressed freedom of worship. This is why, with the exception of Puritan Massachusetts, theocracy was shunned in the U.S. As far as forbidding the common man to own a bible, this had been a problem throughout European history. When the common man was not able to read scriptures for themselves, they fell prey to religious authorities who could dictate the Bible for them, resulting in exploitation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...
Omniverse
Posts: 973
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 3:07:30 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 2:43:11 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/16/2016 2:08:55 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 8/16/2016 2:02:24 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:

European nations oppressed Christians, forbidding worship, and reading the Bible (the Bible itself being illegal to own in a number of cases).

I'd like to ask you to be more specific here. When and where in Europe did such things allegedly happen? Are you talking about the 20th century? If not, which religious authorities - specifically from which faith and denomination - enforced such prohibitions?

Obliged.
It's fairly common knowledge that the American Founding Fathers sought escape from theocracy.

True.
And Lo and behold, the wake of the American revolution was not exempt from sectarian violence amongst Christian denominations.

"
The period after the Revolutionary War saw a lot of infighting between the various states and Christian denominations.""

( http://web.stanford.edu... )

Denominational theocracy is what suppressed freedom of worship. This is why, with the exception of Puritan Massachusetts, theocracy was shunned in the U.S. As far as forbidding the common man to own a bible, this had been a problem throughout European history.

Specifically enforced by Catholic authorities.

When the common man was not able to read scriptures for themselves, they fell prey to religious authorities who could dictate the Bible for them, resulting in exploitation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,386
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/16/2016 3:59:11 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 3:07:30 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 8/16/2016 2:43:11 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/16/2016 2:08:55 PM, Omniverse wrote:
At 8/16/2016 2:02:24 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:

European nations oppressed Christians, forbidding worship, and reading the Bible (the Bible itself being illegal to own in a number of cases).

I'd like to ask you to be more specific here. When and where in Europe did such things allegedly happen? Are you talking about the 20th century? If not, which religious authorities - specifically from which faith and denomination - enforced such prohibitions?

Obliged.
It's fairly common knowledge that the American Founding Fathers sought escape from theocracy.

True.
And Lo and behold, the wake of the American revolution was not exempt from sectarian violence amongst Christian denominations.



The period after the Revolutionary War saw a lot of infighting between the various states and Christian denominations.""

( http://web.stanford.edu... )

Sure. I would be more surprised if there wasn't. I don't think sectarian violence was God's will. But that's an entirely different issue, wouldn't you say?
Denominational theocracy is what suppressed freedom of worship. This is why, with the exception of Puritan Massachusetts, theocracy was shunned in the U.S. As far as forbidding the common man to own a bible, this had been a problem throughout European history.

Specifically enforced by Catholic authorities.

That would depend on one's interpretation of the role England played in executing William Tyndale. The idea of translating the Bible into English was not very popular during Tyndale's day by English authorities.
When the common man was not able to read scriptures for themselves, they fell prey to religious authorities who could dictate the Bible for them, resulting in exploitation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...

I was basically referring to the various trials and tribulations throughout European history that lead to the idea of a theocracy-free independent nation. The problems inevitably varied during different periods, but a common theme played throughout where one denomination controlled the religious lives of it's citizens.

I was also attempting to differentiate the act of defying government between those with a legitimate cause, versus someone who says "God told me to drive on the wrong side of the street". A good example of the former would be Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Four men who were orderly, upstanding Babylonian citizens who's one vice was to refuse to bow to a different god.