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Is fighting in self defense violence?

Fly
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8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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8/21/2016 7:07:34 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
And lets say the invading country is simply doing so to expand its territory or for some economic benefit.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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8/21/2016 7:14:43 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.

Who said anything about being a bystander? What does that have to do with anything?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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8/21/2016 7:16:46 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:14:43 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.

Who said anything about being a bystander? What does that have to do with anything?

If you fight back are you committing an act of violence?
Fly
Posts: 2,044
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8/21/2016 7:23:49 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?

This definition should help:

"Violence:

behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
synonyms:brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness More
strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
"the violence of her own feelings"
synonyms:intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire
"the violence of his passion"
LAW
the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force."

In plain terms, yes, repelling an invasion is by its very nature violent. BUT in a legal context, it does not constitute "committing an act of violence."
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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8/21/2016 7:25:21 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:16:46 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:14:43 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.

Who said anything about being a bystander? What does that have to do with anything?

If you fight back are you committing an act of violence?

You're still asking the same question if fighting is violence?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
janesix
Posts: 3,460
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8/21/2016 7:25:34 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:16:46 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:14:43 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.

Who said anything about being a bystander? What does that have to do with anything?

If you fight back are you committing an act of violence?
Yes
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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8/21/2016 7:27:02 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:23:49 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?

This definition should help:

"Violence:

behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
synonyms:brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness More
strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
"the violence of her own feelings"
synonyms:intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire
"the violence of his passion"
LAW
the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force."

In plain terms, yes, repelling an invasion is by its very nature violent. BUT in a legal context, it does not constitute "committing an act of violence."

Thank you. I see now that he's just being a smarta$$ without any interest in engaging in constructive discussion.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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8/21/2016 7:44:01 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:27:02 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:23:49 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?

This definition should help:

"Violence:

behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
synonyms:brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness More
strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
"the violence of her own feelings"
synonyms:intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire
"the violence of his passion"
LAW
the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force."

In plain terms, yes, repelling an invasion is by its very nature violent. BUT in a legal context, it does not constitute "committing an act of violence."

Thank you. I see now that he's just being a smarta$$ without any interest in engaging in constructive discussion.

Your ignorance of what violence is does not constitute lack of constructive discussion on my part.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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8/21/2016 7:48:37 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:44:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:27:02 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:23:49 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?

This definition should help:

"Violence:

behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
synonyms:brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness More
strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
"the violence of her own feelings"
synonyms:intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire
"the violence of his passion"
LAW
the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force."

In plain terms, yes, repelling an invasion is by its very nature violent. BUT in a legal context, it does not constitute "committing an act of violence."

Thank you. I see now that he's just being a smarta$$ without any interest in engaging in constructive discussion.

Your ignorance of what violence is does not constitute lack of constructive discussion on my part.

No, it's your ignorance of what constitutes a violent religion and what doesn't. Permission to fight in self defense doesn't make Islam violent.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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8/21/2016 7:50:57 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:48:37 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:44:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:27:02 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:23:49 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?

This definition should help:

"Violence:

behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
synonyms:brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness More
strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
"the violence of her own feelings"
synonyms:intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire
"the violence of his passion"
LAW
the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force."

In plain terms, yes, repelling an invasion is by its very nature violent. BUT in a legal context, it does not constitute "committing an act of violence."

Thank you. I see now that he's just being a smarta$$ without any interest in engaging in constructive discussion.

Your ignorance of what violence is does not constitute lack of constructive discussion on my part.

No, it's your ignorance of what constitutes a violent religion and what doesn't. Permission to fight in self defense doesn't make Islam violent.

Yes, it i does make it a violent religion because it permits fighting, which is violence.

A peaceful religion will prohibit violence. Another simple concept to understand.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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8/21/2016 7:56:05 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:50:57 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:48:37 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:44:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:27:02 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:23:49 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?

This definition should help:

"Violence:

behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
synonyms:brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness More
strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
"the violence of her own feelings"
synonyms:intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire
"the violence of his passion"
LAW
the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force."

In plain terms, yes, repelling an invasion is by its very nature violent. BUT in a legal context, it does not constitute "committing an act of violence."

Thank you. I see now that he's just being a smarta$$ without any interest in engaging in constructive discussion.

Your ignorance of what violence is does not constitute lack of constructive discussion on my part.

No, it's your ignorance of what constitutes a violent religion and what doesn't. Permission to fight in self defense doesn't make Islam violent.

Yes, it i does make it a violent religion because it permits fighting, which is violence.

A peaceful religion will prohibit violence. Another simple concept to understand.

So what are the alternatives? Let them kill, rape and pillage? No thanks, we're not emo. If you want the correct term, I guess you could say fighting in self defense is "justified" if it fits your one dimensional way of thinking.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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8/22/2016 2:18:21 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.

Rape and violence are not synonymous.

While some may disagree, many people do not think violence is always bad. For example, if someone broke into my house and threatened me with a weapon, I would attempt to commit an act of violence towards them.

Violence - "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something." source - https://www.google.com...

Dannejerusse is correct. Defending yourself is violence. Use of violence is sometimes acceptable and appropriate.
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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8/22/2016 2:23:28 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/22/2016 2:18:21 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.

Rape and violence are not synonymous.

While some may disagree, many people do not think violence is always bad. For example, if someone broke into my house and threatened me with a weapon, I would attempt to commit an act of violence towards them.

Violence - "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something." source - https://www.google.com...

Dannejerusse is correct. Defending yourself is violence. Use of violence is sometimes acceptable and appropriate.

Ok, but is it correct to identify Islam as "violent" in a religious context because it permits fighting in self defense?
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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8/22/2016 2:28:02 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/22/2016 2:23:28 AM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/22/2016 2:18:21 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.

Rape and violence are not synonymous.

While some may disagree, many people do not think violence is always bad. For example, if someone broke into my house and threatened me with a weapon, I would attempt to commit an act of violence towards them.

Violence - "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something." source - https://www.google.com...

Dannejerusse is correct. Defending yourself is violence. Use of violence is sometimes acceptable and appropriate.

Ok, but is it correct to identify Islam as "violent" in a religious context because it permits fighting in self defense?

That is not why non-Muslims identify Islam as violent. Non-Muslims identify Islam as violent because most people that kill large amounts of innocent non-combatents are Muslims claiming to kill people in the name of Allah.
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,609
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8/22/2016 2:57:10 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

According to the Creator it is. "Thou shalt not kill" Some Muslims on this site fight back against the legitimate attacks on Mohamed and his despicable violence by call ing Jesus a coward for running away from violence. The Muslim mind is totally incapable of understanding that violence begets violence, which is a vicious circle. Jesus' teachings break that connection. He could not participate in violence in any way, shape or form. The Muslim mind cannot comprehend because the violent prophet, Mohamed participated in violence. They say it was in self defense, while ignoring his brutal attacks and murders of innocents.This is why many of them believe God condones killing. This is why their religion is the most violent and aggressive in the history of mankind.
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,609
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8/22/2016 3:01:07 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:56:05 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:50:57 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:48:37 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:44:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:27:02 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:23:49 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?

This definition should help:

"Violence:

behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
synonyms:brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness More
strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
"the violence of her own feelings"
synonyms:intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire
"the violence of his passion"
LAW
the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force."

In plain terms, yes, repelling an invasion is by its very nature violent. BUT in a legal context, it does not constitute "committing an act of violence."

Thank you. I see now that he's just being a smarta$$ without any interest in engaging in constructive discussion.

Your ignorance of what violence is does not constitute lack of constructive discussion on my part.

No, it's your ignorance of what constitutes a violent religion and what doesn't. Permission to fight in self defense doesn't make Islam violent.

Yes, it i does make it a violent religion because it permits fighting, which is violence.

A peaceful religion will prohibit violence. Another simple concept to understand.

So what are the alternatives? Let them kill, rape and pillage? No thanks, we're not emo. If you want the correct term, I guess you could say fighting in self defense is "justified" if it fits your one dimensional way of thinking.

The Muslim mind is incapable of understanding God's edict..."Though shalt not kill". Your religion's history is full of aggression, rape, torture, murder and slavery. Wake up kid.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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8/22/2016 4:27:13 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 7:56:05 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:50:57 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:48:37 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:44:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:27:02 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:23:49 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?

This definition should help:

"Violence:

behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
synonyms:brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness More
strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
"the violence of her own feelings"
synonyms:intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire
"the violence of his passion"
LAW
the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force."

In plain terms, yes, repelling an invasion is by its very nature violent. BUT in a legal context, it does not constitute "committing an act of violence."

Thank you. I see now that he's just being a smarta$$ without any interest in engaging in constructive discussion.

Your ignorance of what violence is does not constitute lack of constructive discussion on my part.

No, it's your ignorance of what constitutes a violent religion and what doesn't. Permission to fight in self defense doesn't make Islam violent.

Yes, it i does make it a violent religion because it permits fighting, which is violence.

A peaceful religion will prohibit violence. Another simple concept to understand.

So what are the alternatives?

Finally, you're starting to ask the right questions. And of course, you'll want to understand the alternatives to both violence and self defense.

Let them kill, rape and pillage?

You may want to consider moving from your neighborhood or changing employers if you're experiencing those often.

No thanks, we're not emo. If you want the correct term, I guess you could say fighting in self defense is "justified" if it fits your one dimensional way of thinking.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
foxxhajti
Posts: 479
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8/22/2016 6:58:49 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

It is violence, but it's justifiable violence, in most cases.
"It's interesting to observe that almost all truly worthy men have simple manners, and that simple manners are almost always taken as a sign of little worth" - Giacomo Leopardi

"It is more honorable to be raised to a throne than to be born to one. Fortune bestows the one, merit obtains the other." - Francesco Petrarca

"You too must not count too much on your reality as you feel it today, since like yesterday, it may prove an illusion for you tomorrow." - Luigi Pirandello
picknpull
Posts: 62
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8/22/2016 7:19:31 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is. : :

If you don't throw the rock back at the one who threw it at you, most likely that rock won't be thrown at you again unless you pick it up and throw it back at the one who threw it at you. A violent reaction to violence never causes a peaceful environment.
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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8/22/2016 10:45:23 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/22/2016 2:28:02 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/22/2016 2:23:28 AM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/22/2016 2:18:21 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.

Rape and violence are not synonymous.

While some may disagree, many people do not think violence is always bad. For example, if someone broke into my house and threatened me with a weapon, I would attempt to commit an act of violence towards them.

Violence - "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something." source - https://www.google.com...

Dannejerusse is correct. Defending yourself is violence. Use of violence is sometimes acceptable and appropriate.

Ok, but is it correct to identify Islam as "violent" in a religious context because it permits fighting in self defense?

That is not why non-Muslims identify Islam as violent. Non-Muslims identify Islam as violent because most people that kill large amounts of innocent non-combatents are Muslims claiming to kill people in the name of Allah.

I completely understand that. I'm asking is it valid to identify the Quran as a violent text solely because it permits fighting in self defense?
thedynasty139
Posts: 160
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8/22/2016 10:55:05 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/22/2016 4:27:13 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:56:05 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:50:57 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:48:37 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:44:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:27:02 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:23:49 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?

This definition should help:

"Violence:

behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
synonyms:brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness More
strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
"the violence of her own feelings"
synonyms:intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire
"the violence of his passion"
LAW
the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force."

In plain terms, yes, repelling an invasion is by its very nature violent. BUT in a legal context, it does not constitute "committing an act of violence."

Thank you. I see now that he's just being a smarta$$ without any interest in engaging in constructive discussion.

Your ignorance of what violence is does not constitute lack of constructive discussion on my part.

No, it's your ignorance of what constitutes a violent religion and what doesn't. Permission to fight in self defense doesn't make Islam violent.

Yes, it i does make it a violent religion because it permits fighting, which is violence.

A peaceful religion will prohibit violence. Another simple concept to understand.

So what are the alternatives?

Finally, you're starting to ask the right questions. And of course, you'll want to understand the alternatives to both violence and self defense.

Let them kill, rape and pillage?

You may want to consider moving from your neighborhood or changing employers if you're experiencing those often.

No thanks, we're not emo. If you want the correct term, I guess you could say fighting in self defense is "justified" if it fits your one dimensional way of thinking.

I was using that as an analogy. If a country attacks the U.S. we should all move out? What world do you live in?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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8/22/2016 1:17:33 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/22/2016 10:55:05 AM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/22/2016 4:27:13 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:56:05 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:50:57 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:48:37 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:44:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:27:02 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:23:49 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:06:08 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:03:37 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Why wouldn't it be?

The problem with self defense as a justification for violence is that self defense is in the eye of the beholder. That is why there are laws, courts and judges to determine what constitutes self defense.

It can get very convoluted. The U.S. invaded Iraq allegedly in self defense. Obviously, Iraq opposed that invasion in self defense. Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other, each with self defense as the justification. It doesn't make the situation any less violent...

Ok, let me give you a scenario. Let's say one country invades another. If the invaded country fights back in self defense, is it committing an act of violence?

This definition should help:

"Violence:

behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
synonyms:brutality, brute force, ferocity, savagery, cruelty, sadism, barbarity, brutishness More
strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
"the violence of her own feelings"
synonyms:intensity, severity, strength, force, vehemence, power, potency, fervency, ferocity, fury, fire
"the violence of his passion"
LAW
the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force."

In plain terms, yes, repelling an invasion is by its very nature violent. BUT in a legal context, it does not constitute "committing an act of violence."

Thank you. I see now that he's just being a smarta$$ without any interest in engaging in constructive discussion.

Your ignorance of what violence is does not constitute lack of constructive discussion on my part.

No, it's your ignorance of what constitutes a violent religion and what doesn't. Permission to fight in self defense doesn't make Islam violent.

Yes, it i does make it a violent religion because it permits fighting, which is violence.

A peaceful religion will prohibit violence. Another simple concept to understand.

So what are the alternatives?

Finally, you're starting to ask the right questions. And of course, you'll want to understand the alternatives to both violence and self defense.

Let them kill, rape and pillage?

You may want to consider moving from your neighborhood or changing employers if you're experiencing those often.

No thanks, we're not emo. If you want the correct term, I guess you could say fighting in self defense is "justified" if it fits your one dimensional way of thinking.

I was using that as an analogy. If a country attacks the U.S. we should all move out? What world do you live in?

So, you're not actually interested in alternatives, violence is your answer.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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8/22/2016 1:21:06 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/22/2016 10:45:23 AM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/22/2016 2:28:02 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/22/2016 2:23:28 AM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/22/2016 2:18:21 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.

Rape and violence are not synonymous.

While some may disagree, many people do not think violence is always bad. For example, if someone broke into my house and threatened me with a weapon, I would attempt to commit an act of violence towards them.

Violence - "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something." source - https://www.google.com...

Dannejerusse is correct. Defending yourself is violence. Use of violence is sometimes acceptable and appropriate.

Ok, but is it correct to identify Islam as "violent" in a religious context because it permits fighting in self defense?

That is not why non-Muslims identify Islam as violent. Non-Muslims identify Islam as violent because most people that kill large amounts of innocent non-combatents are Muslims claiming to kill people in the name of Allah.

I completely understand that. I'm asking is it valid to identify the Quran as a violent text solely because it permits fighting in self defense?

There are other forms of acceptable violence in the Quran, how to properly beat your wife, for example.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,208
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8/22/2016 1:23:05 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/22/2016 10:45:23 AM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/22/2016 2:28:02 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/22/2016 2:23:28 AM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/22/2016 2:18:21 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:09:31 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
At 8/21/2016 7:08:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

Fighting is violence, why can't you see that?

So if a someone is raping your wife, or trying to kill your mother, the best option is to be a bystander? Sorry, that's stupid and no one subscribes to that.

Rape and violence are not synonymous.

While some may disagree, many people do not think violence is always bad. For example, if someone broke into my house and threatened me with a weapon, I would attempt to commit an act of violence towards them.

Violence - "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something." source - https://www.google.com...

Dannejerusse is correct. Defending yourself is violence. Use of violence is sometimes acceptable and appropriate.

Ok, but is it correct to identify Islam as "violent" in a religious context because it permits fighting in self defense?

That is not why non-Muslims identify Islam as violent. Non-Muslims identify Islam as violent because most people that kill large amounts of innocent non-combatents are Muslims claiming to kill people in the name of Allah.

I completely understand that. I'm asking is it valid to identify the Quran as a violent text solely because it permits fighting in self defense?

You shifted your position. Previously you were asking about "Islam" as being a violent religion, now you are asking about specifically the text in which it is based on. Is the entirety of Islam -just- the Quran? If the answer to that is no, why move the goal posts?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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8/22/2016 1:57:10 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/22/2016 6:58:49 AM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 8/21/2016 6:47:15 PM, thedynasty139 wrote:
According to "dannejerusse", it is.

It is violence, but it's justifiable violence, in most cases.

By reading up on cases of alleged self defense, we find it isn't anywhere near as cut and dried as we might expect, there are folks sitting in jail who claimed self defense but are being charged for criminal violence and will most likely serve time.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth